Clinton thinks a fair compromise in MI is to give her 101 delegates and Obama 27. Really.

[Hamlette]

Poll question: Clinton thinks a fair compromise in MI is to give her 101 delegates and Obama 27. Really.

That's their proposal. She gets 73 for winning 55% of the vote and the two of them split the remaining delegates 28 to Clinton, 27 to Obama. He thinks that is very generous to Obama because he was behind in the polls in MI right before the Jan primary.

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=25F4D552-3048-5C12-00D5DA09AF327BF1

I'm curious as to whether Clinton supporters think this is fair because it seems so completely unfair to me. It's like the old joke about finances in a marriage: what's mine is mine and what's his is mine. She wants all of what she got by the vote plus half of the rest that went to undecided.

[undeterred]

1. I am a normal human and I think she's out of her mind.

Really.

[Heather MC]

55. Let Howard Dean know it!

Tell DNC Chairman Gov. Howard Dean what you think here http://www.democrats.org/page/petition/chairman(form)

On MSNBC, Chuck Todd just said “that she realizes that she screwed up and this might be the last straw
and it’s over for her- that she went too far with these remarks.”

Please write to him ASAP and tell him you feel that way too.
Below are email addresses at MSNBC to contact

[e-mail] or chuck.todd at nbcuni dot com

[e-mail] or andrewa.mitchell at nbcuni dot com

[e-mail] or hardball at msnbc dot com

[mythyc]

61. Just wrote Howard Dean. Thanks for the link!

gave my support for how he's handled everything so far and told him far more Democrats are behind him in not letting HRC try to overthrow the party and take over the RBC. satisfying!

[Heather MC]

62. that's a good I dea I didn't think to praise Dean first

Ole well I will do it next time

[Johnny__Motown]

2. Clearly the Uncommitted vote was all anti-Clinton.. her getting even 1 of those delegates isn't fair

[JerseygirlCT]

7. Yeah, how do they figure that people faced with her as a choice

who did not take that choice - somehow should be counted as people who chose her?

That doesn't compute.

[Major Hogwash]

3. We don't apportion delegates on the basis of when the primary would have been held,

It's a disingenuous argument.
Obama is far more popular than Hillary today and would whip her ass in a primary in Michigan if it were held now.

[arewenotdemo]

35. Absolutely. He would crush her in Michigan now.

[Orangepeel]

4. It's a ridiculously unfair proposal designed to make the final unfair compromise not look as bad

So when the committee gives all of the uncommitted vote to Obama, the Clinton camp can pretend they got a raw deal.

[MercutioATC]

5. If that's the solution we're using, she should get the 73 delegates.

She should get none of the remaining 55 delegates, because their clear intent was to vote against her.

Obama should either get all or a large percentage of the remaining 55.

[Occam Bandage]

6. So she's saying that a quarter of her supporters voted Uncommitted?

How strange.

[Mz Pip]

9. Maybe they checked the wrong box!

THey really meant to vote for her but got confused. :sarcasm:

Anything is possible in Hillaryworld.

[Hamlette]

19. Actually, its much worse than that

they say 7 delegates sent for Dodd and Kucninch combined. Kucinich, you'll remember, tried to remove his name from the ballot but did not file his request to take his name off in time. So, they argue Clinton might have been the second choice for some of THOSE voters who would have voted for another candidate (not Obama, not Clinton, not Dodd, and not Kucinich) in the first round.

So, what she REALLY thinks is fair is to divide the 57 delegates according to the polls as they were at the time of the primary which gave her 55% support to Obama's 39%. What that actually does to the delegate divide I don't know but my guess is it would be something like 33 to 24 for Obama (if you round out those who didn't poll for either.) Giving her 106 to 24.

If they want to use that as their bargaining position so they have some room for negotiation, fine.

Just don't say it out loud if you want us to think you are honest politicians.

[BearSquirrel2]

26. That depends on demographic weighting ...

Early in the primaries, Obama was significantly outperforming polls (10+ points). I suspect this is from non historical demographic weightings. These have since seemingly been corrected.

So you see, the sampling is perfectly valid. However, proportioning that sample would be a HUGE MEGA DEBATE!!!

[slinkerwink]

8. that's wrong

[BlooInBloo]

10. It's funny cuz you used the words "Clinton" and "fair" in the same sentence.

[otohara]

27. LOL

there was a time, I thought they were fair.

[Hawkeye-X]

11. Nice push poll. No options for Obama voters.

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay then.

[Mz Pip]

14. He took his name off the ballot

THerefore in Hillaryworld he does not exist and neither do his supporters.

[Hamlette]

21. true, I didn't think any Obama supporters would think it fair. n/t

[Doityourself]

12. WTF? Hillary & her camp are smoking major crack..lol..fuckin' nutcakes all of them

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

31. Hillary needs to be shown the door. She's like the party guest from hell who won't leave.

[Carolina]

45. she's worse, she's an intruder holding

everyone hostage.

[SharonRB]

13. I knew she was nuts before this

but this really proves it. Those uncommitted votes in my state were because people didn't want her. Why should she get any of those delegates? She really has jumped the shark.

Nice try, Hillary. You'll get nowhere with this lamebrained idea.

[TahitiNut]

18. Please don't say "nuts" to describe Hillary. It's offensive to us Nuts.

Thanks. :hi:

* This is a public service posting on behalf of the International Association of Fruits & Nuts, Ad Hoc DU Chapter.

:silly:

** This message may or may not reflct the opinions of 1plain1peanut, AcadamiaNut, aquanut, B3Nut, blackwalnut, bobbonutrino, bozosleftnut, bulugnut, BUSHISNUTS, butternut, butternutty, buttnutt, Canadiangunnut, Carnut, CarNutAtl, CA_liberal_nut, Chanute, Coconut Buddha Ape, coconut55, CoconutMonkey, coconut_oil, conspiracy-nut, darlademnut, deeznuts, DemNutz, democratinutah, deznuts, deznutts, donut, donut33, donutrevolutionary, Donuts, donutwant, econut, elvisthenut, fleabitpeanutmonkey, fluffernutter, fordnut, FruityNuts, fuzzlenutz, gaygunnut, GnomesLeftNut, grapenut1998, graphixnut, gunnut12345, HangingSaddamByHisNutsack, hazelnut, HealthNut, Historynut, Jacknut, jakenuts, JaneDoughnut, JustFiveMoreMinutes, just_anuther_gurl, KnuteThingrich, KNUTSY, konominut, leftnut22, leftrightwingnut, leftwingnut, LeftyWingNut, Lefty_WingNut, Lela McNutt, Letters From A Nut, liberalgunnut, LiberalInUtah, lilpnut, Lonenut23, lonenutcracker, loosenut, Lugnut, MACanuto, madminute, MilsurpNut, Minuteman, Minutes, monkeynuts6969, monolithic_juggernut, Mr Peanut, Mr. Peanut, mrpeanut, my15minutes, NONnutcase, NoToCubanRepubnuts, nsaixphnutex, numinut, Nut Grinderswitch, Nutboy, nutcase, nutcracker420, nutcrakcer, nutgrass, nuthatch, nuthead2ub, Nutkinnews, Nutmeg, NutMeg021576, nutmeg08, Nutmeg1576, Nutmeg61, Nutmegger, NutmegJenny, NutmegYankee, nutmeg_express, Nutniks, nuton2wheels, nutone, nutria, Nutrino, NutritionFacts, Nuts, nuts101, nutsco101, nutshell2002, nutsnbolts, NutterFluffer, NuttinBut, nutty left, NuttyFluffers, nuttywoody, nututhissite, oaknut, omgiamgoingnuts, Opera Nut, ornanut, paolonutuni, peanut, Peanut Gallery, peanut3729, peanut57, peanutbrittle, PeanutButter, Peanutcat, PeanutGallery, PeanutOne, peanutz, Permanut, pnutbutr, pnutchuck, pnutfarmer, PoliSciNut, PolitiNut, PublicHealthNut, publichealthnut1, pucknut, Racenut20, reichwingnut, somenut, soulforpeanuts, soulforpeanutz, Soynut, spacenut, Spudnuts, superbeachnut, TahitiNut, the wingnuttiest, tofunut, twominuteshate, undamynutz, Unuttymuh, videonut, walnutpie, weenut1, Wingnut19, Wingnutblogger, Wingnutsawry, wwwalnut, or yoganut.

[SharonRB]

Sorry about that, Tahiti

Make that crazy instead.

:hi:

[TahitiNut]

15. I'm a Michigan voter and I think she's bat-shit insane.

:puke:

[SharonRB]

30. Okay

I'll go with that -- bat-shit insane. Works for me.

[TahitiNut]

33. We need to all get together.

... and perform an "intervention" (rescue?) for MrsGrumpy. :crazy: :silly: :hi:

[AZBlue]

16. She's completely lost her mind.

[still_one]

17. Hillary should go back in time to the Soviet Union where they did that kind of thing

OBAMA and EDWARDS WERE NOT EVEN ON THE BALLOT IN MICHIGAN

Why the hell should they be penalized for doing what the DNC asked them to

and why the hell should SHE be rewarded for not doing what the DNC asked them to

and why the hell should Michigan be counted when they were warned well in advance not to hold their primary early

[malletgirl02]

22. Implication

If Obama and Edwards are penalized for following the rules then why should any candidates in future primaries bother following the Party's rules?

[Hamlette]

32. bingo. I think we have a winner. Of course, no Hlilary support will agree with you.

I think she honestly believes rules are for others and should not apply to her.

[Hamlette]

24. actually, the DNC didn't ask them to take their names off the ballot, NH dem party did. Hillary

refused saying the election didn't count anyway so what's the problem? Kucinich tried to but filed too late to get his name off. Dodd didn't take his off either. Not sure why.

[still_one]

51. THEREFORE, I (Hillary Clinton), Democratic Candidate for President,

in honor and in accordance with DNC rules, pledge to actively campaign in the pre-approved early states Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina. I pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window (any date prior to February 5, 2008).

I guess her word is worth as much as snipers shooting at her in Bosnia

[MonkeyFunk]

20. That's very generous

it's 27 more delegates than he would've otherwise gotten.

You don't get delegates from races you don't run in.

[Hansel]

25. You also don't get delegates from races that don't count. nt

[arewenotdemo]

48. Her attempts at "securing" (her word) the nomination are becoming increasingly pathetic.

Her campaign is in its death spiral, now.

We all can appreciate your loyalty, MonkeyFunk, but the Goddess of Peace isn't giving you any warning.

It's past time to bail out.

[Hansel]

23. She only won 55% of the vote without any other major

contender on the ticket. 45% of the people came out and voted against her. Why in the world does she or her supporters believe she should walk away with 79% of the delegates?

Doesn't she get that 45% of the people made the effort in a vote that doesn't count to come out and vote against her? That should be a clue that they had no intention of supporting her. So much for her caring about every vote counting. She is truly a classless person.

[Ichingcarpenter]

28. Of Course it is fair and the math seems about right

She gets 102 out of the 130 delegates which is 78%.
and she would have won that State by 78% if the primary
would have been a normal primary.


Obama deserves 22% of the remaining delegates because .................
(someone has lost their minds)


WTF?

Michigan: What would have happened?


Obama would have carried Michigan by a narrow margin -- about 4.0 percentage points or 80,000 votes. After accounting for delegates awarded at the statewide level, we project him to win 65 Michigan delegates to Clinton's 63. Certainly, there is some margin for error in these calculations, and Clinton could certainly have won the state herself. But it would undoubtedly have been very close. Interestingly, if you take the average of the winning margins in Indiana (Clinton by 1.2 points), Ohio (Clinton by 8.7) and Wisconsin (Obama by 17.3), you come up with an average of Obama by 2.5 points, which is very close to our estimate.

The idea that Obama should get zero delegates from Michigan - and that this represent a triumph of democracy - is cuckoo for cocopuffs.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/05/michigan-what-would-have-happened.html

[Lerrad]

29. Question: What keeps all the Obama supporters from spoiling the results of your pole?

I don't think the results will be accurate.

[me b zola]

39. I dunno

I'm an Obama supporter and I followed the rules and didn't vote in this poll. See a pattern? :shrug:

[Ice-9]

34. Cats get fat ; pigs get slaughtered.

That's the unwritten rule of tax law. The idea is that whether or not you get away with something depends not only on the principle involved but on how greedy you are with it. If you use some creative tax accounting to nickel-and-dime the government, the IRS or a court may let you get away with it. But if you use the very same principle to give the government a bath, the IRS or the court will come down on you hard. Cats get fat; pigs get slaughtered.(*)

Someone should tell Senator Clinton's campaign that, because they've been acting very piggish on the Michigan question lately. How can any reasonable person look at Senator Clinton's proposal and think it represents a fair compromise given the facts of the Michigan primary (Clinton agreeing it wouldn't count, Obama's name not on the ballot, etc.)? This proposal just does more harm than good to her campaign. If she had proposed a 55-45 split, or maybe even a 60-40 split, she might have gotten Obama to agree to it. This proposal, on the other hand, just strengthens his hand. Because now he can turn to the party elders and say, "Hey look, I was ready to do business with her, but she's not even being serious. You can't blame me for rejecting that." And he'll be right. Reasonable people will look at this proposal and think she's deranged, and the people who actually have some influence over what the credentials committee does will prevail upon them to do something quick and simple, like split the baby down the middle. So in the end, she may not even get a 55-45 split.

(*) Just for the record, this is a descriptive point, not a normative one; I'm not endorsing the idea of fleecing the government.

[Inuca]

36. Chutzpah is a MAJOR understatement n/t

[briv1016]

37. This is the 73-0 proposal stated in a different way.

The 50-50 split in the uncommitted cancel each other out and results back in the 73-0 split. (In fact it’s even worse because they want to split the uncommitted 28-27; giving Hillary a 74-0 split overall.)

This is there "compromise?"

[yourguide]

38. That whole camp...crack addicts.

[Iceburg]

40. Obama was polling below 23% in MI before the MI primary

Hillary at the same time was polling at > 56% -- more than double Obama's numbers.
I agree with the Mr. Davis that awarding all of the 57 remaining delegates is completly unfair, and a 50-50 split very generous.

Given that 3 states had already changed their primary date without penalty, and given the 1996 Deleware precident*,
I further believe it was bad tactical planning on Obama's part to:
a) remove his name from the ballot; and
b) turn down the offer to revote as offered in March.

* in 1995, the Delaware Democrats held a party caucus earlier than the permissible date, resulting in a rule violation. But state Democrats were allowed to hold another caucus later on and were then found to be back in compliance.

[Ichingcarpenter]

43. WTF? ..... I have the data and the link and it proves you wrong

WTF?

Michigan: What would have happened?


Obama would have carried Michigan by a narrow margin -- about 4.0 percentage points or 80,000 votes. After accounting for delegates awarded at the statewide level, we project him to win 65 Michigan delegates to Clinton's 63. Certainly, there is some margin for error in these calculations, and Clinton could certainly have won the state herself. But it would undoubtedly have been very close. Interestingly, if you take the average of the winning margins in Indiana (Clinton by 1.2 points), Ohio (Clinton by 8.7) and Wisconsin (Obama by 17.3), you come up with an average of Obama by 2.5 points, which is very close to our estimate.

The idea that Obama should get zero delegates from Michigan - and that this represent a triumph of democracy - is cuckoo for cocopuffs.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/05/michigan-what-wo...

[mikiturner]

44. Link?

I call b.s.

[Hamlette]

50. FL and MI could have held another primary

they chose not to so I don't see how Delaware is a precedent for anything.


and in the future, if you give in the Hillary on this (or MI and FL, however you look at it) how will you be able to enforce party rules in the future? Honest. I'd really like an answer.

We belong to a party, we agree to a set of rules. ALL OF THE CANDIDATES agree to the rules then when one candidate loses, she wants to change the rules. How in the world is that fair?

And as for FL and MI, I had some sympathy at one time but it has become so dishonest it is trying my patience.

[Me.]

41. What She Wants & What She Gets

ain't gonna make her happy. Cause ultimately what she ain't getting is the presidency

[Gore1FL]

42. that still keeps her behind by three digits

give it to her so she'll go away on June 3.

[Carolina]

49. not so sure

anything can/will appease her. After all, "anything can happen" according to her campaign...

She is like Hitler, she won't stop. She will have to be stopped. The SDs need to shut her down. NOW

[Gore1FL]

56. I think the SDs will shut it down

but I believe there will be enough SD endorsements to make MT and SD put him over, and then the floodgates will open with the rest.

As a favor to all of us though, let's not mention the failed German chancellor.

[arewenotdemo]

53. Respectfully disagree here.

I DO think the word "appeasement" and everything it suggests apply in the case of HRC.

[Gore1FL]

57. I see what you are saying

but the SD's will tak care of that after MT and SD vote

[rufus dog]

46. She is fucking nuts!

[WeDidIt]

47. She wants her share, and then more than half of Obama's share

and that's fair in Hillaryland.

She ain't getting that shit, though.

[Heather MC]

52. I think she has come up with this Outrageous plan in an attempt to

get the delegates seated as they are!!

I hate her, I hope she is financially destroyed and never heard from again

5 years from now VH1 will do a a where are they now the Clintons,
and Hillary will be an Ambulance Chasing Attorney in a 3rd world country, getting paid with chickens!

[Arugula Latte]

54. Apparently, all is fair in HillaryWorld, as long as it helps Hillary.

Jesus, she doesn't even TRY to hide her out-of-control sense of entitlement to stuff she hasn't earned.

[Mezzo]

58. yeah? and?

Barack OBama took his name off that ballot...not the mich dem party, not the national dem party...BARACK OBAMA did that all be himself.

So...who's to blame for his not getting votes? MICHIGAN? The PEOPLE? or Barack OBama?

[SoCalDem]

59. Fair?.. Both get ZERO and NO super delegate votes count..No "popular vote" either

Let the supers GO to Denver..they all get:

1) free valet parking
2) private buffet with Florida delegates (same deal for them)
3) front row seats
4) an extra bag of confetti

[rxdem84]

60. Whatever. Appease her and her supporters. On to November!!

[billyoc]

63. I went farther than the 3rd grade,

and I can't stop laughing. :rofl: