So, why hasn't Clinton been forced out yet?

[Godhumor]

I posted after the last big primary fight that I am a Clinton supporter who has accepted that Obama will be our nominee. I, moreover, fully expect him to win in November, and I will proudly pull the lever next to his name.

However, in the past couple days the barrage against Clinton on this site has escalated to an incredible level mostly on the level of "She needs to get out or be forced out." The blame for this expanded primary season lays completely at her feet for not bowing out gracefully.

I believe that there's a deeper story, or question, to this, though. Clinton has pretty much shown that the only way she is going to concede is if she is categorically eliminated from consideration. It's essentially an open challenge to the party--"You want me to go away? Fine, make me." So far, the party has not met her challenge.

My question is why? Look, each super delegate is an individual person, but the DNC, constituents, etc. can put enormous pressure on people to step into line to turn our attention to November. Even Carter himself has said Clinton is only going away if she is made to leave. Why haven't the remaining super delegates, whether as a mass or over a course of days, declared for Obama and end this?

Super delegates not declaring and meeting Clinton's challenge lends credence to the idea that there is nervousness about Obama's chances in November (something I don't agree with). It also makes Howard Dean, and, frankly, the party machine as a whole look ineffective at rallying support around the likely nominee.

Why should Clinton drop out? The super delegates have not shown a willingness to end this, and she feeds off that hope. She has made major gaffes, damaged her relationship with a good deal of this country, and she is still not forced out of the race. So, why not?

Is it simply a desire to let democracy play out?

Is it fear of retribution from Clinton's vast array of contacts?

Is it a lack of enthusiasm for an Obama run?

Hell, is it as simple as some people enjoying being the "king makers" as it were?

Seriously, I think Clinton has damaged herself, but I see very little anger or venom spewed toward the delegates unwilling to declare. You want Clinton out? Time to start pressuring the remaining undecideds.

Edited for grammar and change "guffaw" to "gaffe"...my own little gaffe, as it were.

[cliffordu]

1. None of the above. It's so you have motive to write

interminable diatribes like this one....

[Godhumor]

12. Thanks for the input

I'll try to keep the next one less interminable and more diatribic in nature.

[BlooInBloo]

2. Approximately equal parts of (1) The Clintons still have a lot of clout...

in internal party mechanics matters, and (2) They want to avoid the appearance of "the boys pushing the girl out" - whether or not it's false, it won't play well if it even *looks* like that's what happened.

[slinkerwink]

3. What I'm hearing is that they're waiting for the last primary to be over.

And thank you for saying that you'll vote for the Democratic nominee.

[AZ Criminal JD]

48. I'm sure they are talking to you daily. What an pathetic attempt for attention.

[Muttocracy]

4. I don't want anyone forcing anyone out

Do I think she should drop out? Yes, absolutely, the math is clear and she's wrecking her political career and damaging the Dem. party and wasting money that could be spent on worthwhile causes.

But I don't want anyone "forcing" her out. Voters and SDs will vote her out over the next couple of weeks.

[lurky]

5. I wish she had made some "major guffaws"!

Then this primary season might have been a bit more bearable.

:P

[Godhumor]

11. Pfft, still not as bad as the time I said "Bare with me" and had a forum strip show on my hands

Thankfully, not here, though.

[lurky]

27. Hehehe!!!

[OzarkDem]

6. Fear not

Obama supporters will be calling for her public lynching any day now...:sarcasm:

[Heather MC]

40. That word has not place here 'Lynching" no more than "Assassination" does

Sarcasm tag or not, no one wants her lynched, we just want her to be a democrat and at the end of this process support the nominee, and not try to ripe the party apart so she can get another bite at the apple in 2012

She is beginning to be an embarrassment, her and her husband to the so called Clinton Legacy

[CreekDog]

7. i never asked for her to quit, but to campaign in a way not harmful to the party

Obama has certainly been able to do this, why can't she?

[2rth2pwr]

8. Why does every one overlook the fact that she is winning, and winning big?

Last Tuesday she got more votes from Oregon and Ketucky combined.

The voters, you know, the American people, are saying that this is not over.

[OzarkDem]

10. Truth is irrelevant to Obama supporters

as is winning the GE. Facts are bothersome things.

[mkultra]

29. troll now on ignore

[2rth2pwr]

42. Why do you want to announce that fact?

[MercutioATC]

14. What do you not understand about the electoral process?

We have a process.


That said, she may or may not have more of the popular vote than Obama. Since there's absolutely no way to count the popular states in caucus states, we'll never know. For either candidate to claim that they have more popular votes is just silly.

[OzarkDem]

19. and why do you not understand the GE?

Rigging a proportional primary and alienating your base = losing the GE.

[MercutioATC]

22. Let's stick to the subject YOU raised.

1) We have a process. Every candidate knew that process beforehand and agreed to it. This isn't about the popular vote, it's about delegates. True or false?

2) There is no way to count the popular vote in caucus states, so there's no reasonable way for any candidate to claim that they've won the popular vote in this race. True or false?


If you'd care to deal with these facts I'd be happy to debate you on other issues, but since you brought up the popular vote issue, let's deal with that first.

[OzarkDem]

23. I raised the subject of the GE

that is where votes count the most.

[MercutioATC]

25. No, you claimed that Clinton had more of the popular vote.

I'm asking you to explain how you reached this conclusion.

[reflection]

44. Rigging?

What did I miss?

[Gore1FL]

18. Probably because she is losing and losing big?

[cliffordu]

24. 97 million people also voted for Dave on American Idol last week, too.

So fucking what??

[JVS]

46. because if this is winning big, then Feb was losing the size of the galaxy

[JerseygirlCT]

54. Because votes don't decide this directly

(She's not ahead in the popular vote, either, BTW.)

Delegates make the decision. And she cannot catch up there.

[msallied]

9. There is nothing wrong with preserving DEmocracy.

Our country has locked itself into this crazed notion that we have always selected our Presidential candidates this way, and therefore any notion that the selection has been ripped from them will likely result in MSM-fed hysteria, and of course the Republicans would lap up every drop of it.

Allowing the nominee even the illusion of being ushered into the General Election by the people's vote is a hell of a lot better at maintaining appearances than the DNC having to step in and eighty-six one of their own.

[thoughtcrime1984]

13. June 3 , my friend!

The answer lies on June 3.

[OzarkDem]

21. November 4

The answer lies on November 4.

[cliffordu]

30. Why, is her Senate seat up for grabs at that point??

[cboy4]

15. Forced out?! Sounds like something they'd do in the

former Soviet Union.

I much prefer democracy where everyone gets to vote in all of the states and territories.

This has been the best primary! :bounce:

[Godhumor]

16. I agree completely, which is why the hatred towards Clinton for not dropping out is alarming

Let her run till she decides to stop.

[cliffordu]

31. I hope she stays in until the only office she can hold is dog catcher in

Tennessee, someplace.

[emilyg]

37. The best primary in years!

[Catherina]

17. Thanks. You just reminded me. www.lobbydelegates.com

https://www.lobbydelegates.com

Great site to communicate with the delegates.

[sandnsea]

20. Her supporters don't understand she's lying

Lying about the caucuses, the delegates, MI & FL, the chances she ever had to win, all of it. The party doesn't want to upset her supporters, she won't tell them the truth, so we're stuck in this mess until all the states have voted and hopefully her supporters will finally be able to accept reality.

[Cha]

26. She's such a disingenous liar ..and her scortched Earth

is an ugly way to go but hey if that all she has to stay in then she has to go with it.

<snip>

" Yet the assassination reference wasn't Clinton's only mistake. In the same breath, she maintained that her husband had not wrapped up the nomination until June. In truth, he did so in March with the Illinois primary. While California made his victory a mathematical fact, the outcome had not been in doubt for months."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080524/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_remark;_ylt=AkZR3NoSD3_U45IdK85Mksis0NUE

Latest hilary lie..as far as I know.

[SwampG8r]

36. she hasnt spoken since she said that?

otherwise its not a dew picked lightly killed fresh hillary lie

[Cha]

47. My point

exactly.

[mkultra]

28. she shoudl be allowed to stay

the problem is really her abusive campaign style. It damages dems and you almost never see republicans do it. The people that want her to quit now think she is harming the party and should know better.

[dkf]

32. Bob Kerrey says Chris Dodd's bills won't get Hillary's support

because he supported Obama.

The Clinton's are known to have long memories and a bad reputation for retaliation, so yes, I do think a lot of superdelegates are scared.

How very Machiavellian of them.

[genna]

45. Keep in mind there can ONLY be 1

If the funk Clinton stirred up during this primary follows her to the Senate, I'd like to see what kind of power she can summon to retaliate especially when Chris Dodd ran for Senate Majority Leader against Reid last time.

Who is she going to have on her side who was arguing for her harder than Stephanie Tubbs Jones...isn't she in the House? I'd didn't see Chuck Shumer out there campaigning as hard for her as Chris Dodd did for Obama.

If your own second state senator is not doing his best for your campaign and your state governor is questioning your desperation, how many fans do you really have?

[JohnnyLib2]

33. Daddy just keeps his eyes on the road, like he doesn't hear us yelling.

Yeah, we'll get where we're going, but she's a big meanie and SHE STARTED IT!

:grr:

[crankychatter]

34. because she is the white establishment's baby AND

because the War Profiteer owned CNN, ABC and FOX LIKE HER

why they like her?

I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count

[GoesTo11]

35. There is no true forcing out mechanism

When people talk about forcing out, they mean the type of things that have happened. Obama has gotten something like 180 super delegates to 50 for Clinton since Feb 10. Obama has far outraised her and she is driving her campaign deep into debt by continuing to run. Some party leaders have said it's time. Some editorials have mocked her. This is exactly what people mean by "forced out". But it's not truly forcing, and she has decided not to go where other candidates would have left. John Edwards left before it was mathematically impossible, right? But there is just no way for Howard Dean or anyone else to say "You have to leave the primary now - your name will be removed from ballots and consideration, and you are hereby excommunicated from the party." She's right that it's possible for all the super delegates and maybe even the pledged ones to en masse change their minds. But it's so improbable that other candidates drop their races when they get to this point. She just keeps going on with no regard for the consequences and there's really nothing more that the Democratic leadership can do. The party doesn't have the rules to do it.

[gorekerrydreamticket]

38. Exactly, when you have millions of $ at your disposal, willing to make a fool of yourself, etc...

no one can force you to do anything...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. Because The DNC Doesn't Want To Alienate Her Supporters Who Are Essential To A Democratic Victory

~

[genna]

41. why? The delegates haven't stood up and declared because they are looking after their own hides

My opinion. These delegates know a heart soul change is coming with BHO. They don't know whether he will actually win against the prevailing winds AND they are hedging their bets.

I think the worst part of them checking the winds for which way they should go is that it demonstrates why the Democrats haven't effectively squashed the Republican largess under Bush: the Imperial President.

They don't want to do anything which will put their heads on the chopping block (I SOLELY MEAN THAT FIGURATIVELY). The strength required is not the strength they have.


I disagree about Dean not having the chops for this fight. I think is the only person who could try to squire these shrinking violets in one way: make your choice by June 10th (the date all primaries MUST have their results into the DNC).

I guess some who say he can BRASHLY come out and demand that SDs declare ASAP and they must comply think Democrats should behave like Republicans. Democrats are independent minded folks who have to be wrangled along because every one of them think we are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Read some of the stuff we've said and you can't believe that we want one person whoever they are to tell us what we MUST DO. We don't roll like that.

[backscatter712]

43. I think they're waiting for the last primaries to finish.

That and for the MI/FL question to be settled by the Rules committee.

Once SD and MT are finished, I suspect the talking point will be "Every state and territory in the primaries had their say, and they voted for Obama." It won't be pushing Hillary out, it'll be ratifying the primary results.

[End Of The Road]

49. I'm puzzled too -- what if there is another possibility...

Like her or hate her, Hil is no dummy. Geez, she went to Wellesley, she can ADD -- she's well aware of the story the numbers are telling. I, personally, don't believe she's gunning for 2012, because if Obama is a successful president, he'll be reelected; if his presidency is a fiasco, the electorate will be looking for a new face (probably Repub). No chance for her in 2016, because she'll be too old (read: wrinkled) to be electable.

Therefore, is it possible that the DNC wants her to stay in? has asked her to stay in? I can't figure their angle for doing so, but politics is a nasty business.

Sorry about some of the replies you received to your post, Godhumor. I cringe every time a democrat tries to shut down civil discourse, no matter what their position.

[VotesForWomen]

50. let's see how these last few races go. i don't think they're going to cement O's 'victory.'

[JimGinPA]

51. This Is Why...

[susankh4]

52. Why? Because not everyone is falling for....

the Axelrod of Evil's, evil plan?

Just guessing.

[JerseygirlCT]

53. Because despite what B. Clinton keeps saying, she's not

being pushed out.

I'm pretty sure that on June 4th - after all the primaries are over - we'll see a whole lot of SDs coming Obama's way. It will be very apparent then that her candidacy is in no way viable anymore, but she'll be able to say she stuck it out to the end.

There's no need to push her out - she's lost already - it's just a matter of finalizing it after the last few primaries.

[paulk]

55. one reason is that she's still winning primaries

some of them by really large margins