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Please, stay away from arguments about "educated voters".

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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 01:19 AM
Original message
Please, stay away from arguments about "educated voters".
Before I begin, let me be clear. I was once a Clinton supporter, but I have recognized this race is over for some time and now support Senator Obama. Now then, moving on.

I'm not going to name names, but there have been a number of threads making broad pronouncements about the education levels of the supporters of the various candidates. The insinuation is that voters with higher levels of education are much better skilled at selecting presidents than those with lower levels. Taken to its logical extreme, why do we not just have government by the Ivy League universities? I mean, by this line of argumentation we are all just a bunch of ignorant rubes, most of whom have attended public secondary schools and more likely than not public universities and we should just bow to Harvard, Princeton, and Yale.

Speaking for myself, I have double-majored at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in Economics and History and I am starting a Masters of Public Affairs specializing in Public Finance and Budgeting. I could easily make the argument that I am much better suited to make decisions on who our political leaders should be than your average retail clerk or table washer in Mercer, Wisconsin in Iron County where the per capita income is about $14,000 and a college degree is a rare thing. However, as a Democrat, making such an argument is shameful to me. Why? Because up until quite recently, the college educated electorate was on balance a Republican leaning one. Even recently, if you look at the 2004 exit polling, voters with a bachelors degree or at least some college voted more Republican than those with a high school education or less. Granted, voters with post-graduate levels were the most Democratic voting bloc, but the point remains that the next best group for Democrats were those with less than a high school education. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election%2C_2004#Voter_Demographics

Why is this important? As Democrats we believe in equality among all the people regardless of their characteristics. The plain fact is that the bulk of those with post-graduate educations, which will soon include myself, come from quite privileged backgrounds. We really don't know what it is like for most people out there. While people like me, economically(and thus educationally privileged white people for the most part) inevitably end up in the positions of making policy, we are not truly certain how those we are implementing policies on are truly effected if we do not listen to them. This is the genius of how the vote of a college professor counts just as much as the vote of a cashier at Sears.

As I pointed out earlier, the college educated used to be a pretty heavily Republican demographic. If it was up to them exclusively, the Democratic Party would have never had its heyday of the 1930s-1960s. Thomas Dewey would have beaten Harry Truman. Richard Nixon would have defeated JFK. FDR probably would not have won his second two terms. Gerry Ford would have beaten Jimmy Carter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election%2C_1976#Voter_demographics I've heard Republicans even still make the argument, and it is a racist one, that because black voters on balance have lower levels of education that is the reason they vote Democratic. This is why my skin crawls when I see people here making the same arguments.

Please, realize what you are saying before you condemn the poorly educated. Remember this is an inclusive party, and that's what separates us from the Republicans. We don't hold the privileged above the non-privileged. We don't separate people by class and keep them down and insult them. We represent giving everyone a voice and respecting their voice. Thank you.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. Agreed. I don't much like the campaigns placing more value in one voting bloc over another.
That's why I threw my support behind Obama.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Exactly. If I heard Obama say the same shit some of his less more problematic
supporters say, I would have a hard time. However, thankfully he doesn't think like they do.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. education does not mean intelligence
just look at GWB and Cheney for proof
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. "why do we not just have government by the Ivy League universities? "

Have you paid attention to the candidates that have been running for President the last several decades?


Clinton, Bush, Gore, Kerry....


hell.. Obama?




We ARE getting a government "run by Ivy Leaguers".



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cbc5g Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. LOL exactly, I dont think the OP thought this over n/t
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. Only if you look at the issue superficially.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. All of above, as well as Sen. Clinton. Which makes the
Edited on Tue May-27-08 01:38 AM by JohnnyLib2
threads to which the OP refers even more one dimensional.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. That's only been the case since 1988.
Also, my point was that with this sort of argument, you are saying that basically let's just look to Ivy League educated voters since they are the supposed pinnacle of education.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you in the most profound way.

"The insinuation is that voters with higher levels of education are much better skilled at selecting presidents than those with lower levels. Taken to its logical extreme, why do we not just have government by the Ivy League universities?"

The OPs using this argument either don't grasp or don't care about this point.

Hopefully, you have provoked some thought. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Recommended
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
8. Agreed, but...
I would like to note that it is predominantly the uneducated that left the Democratic Party because we became progressive on social issues. I don't think that we should abandon those stances just to get their votes back. At the same time I think we should be to the left of where we are on economic issues right now.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
9. I did one thread based on my frustration of the media and Hillary
Edited on Tue May-27-08 01:39 AM by FrenchieCat
promoting Hard working White Voters who will only vote for Hillary and Obama has a "problem" with them, they say....

And in that thread that you are referring to, I asked quite plainly why this phenomenon might be in reference to the preference of educated voters.....and this is the counter thread to it?

Wow. Didn't realize that we could talk about why some voters won't vote Obama all day long (he won't win, I keep reading.....even against a lousy candidate like McCain), but we can't really discuss why some voters do vote Obama.

As a Black person who has been told in no uncertain terms that my vote is automatic to one candidate no matter what and therefore doesn't count, I am puzzled at this difficulty others have of speaking stats on the educated and who they tend to vote for.

I have learned a lesson here today.

Discussing race is fine. Discussing Educational level is not. I'll make a note of this.
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Whalestoe Donating Member (928 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Discussing both is fine. Everyone is too sensative.
The only time education level becomes a problem is when someone says, "Only stupid people vote for Clinton." Which obviously isn't true as I'm sure most of us know. Same thing with race--if someone says, "Black voters only vote for Obama because he is black". It's just dumb and plain offensive (on both fronts).

I'm white and haven't finished college (yet)--so should I vote for Hillary? But I'm also young, so I must need to vote for Barack.

Oh, how torn I feel between my voting statistic. Woe is me.:sarcasm:
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Your thread merely inspired me to get off my ass and finally bitch about this. I've been bothered by
this for some time now.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
21. Refreshed by sleep, let me comment:
Edited on Tue May-27-08 07:20 AM by JohnnyLib2
You started with "preference of educated voters," with emphasis on the statistics about that. Fair enough.

Then, you bring in the matter of black/white voters along with the education level. Fair enough, except that another set of statistics goes with that.

I suspect that a crystal clear focus on one, or the other, or both variables would be much easier to discuss. Thanks.

On edit, I'm leaving for work now.
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
10. It's a generally mean-spirited approach.
People who don't have a lot of education aren't stupid.
People who do have a lot of education aren't intelligent.

Our educational system routinely shuts out people from poorer or immigrant communities, and bestowing superiority on those who have the most advantages is hurtful, wrong, and mean.

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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
24. That sums it up very nicely. n/t
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 04:01 AM
Response to Original message
11. 2004 exit polls
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

Lower income strongly favored Kerry, but educational levels showed much less Bush/Kerry splitting, with the only demographics favoring Kerry being people without high school diplomas and people with some postgraduate education.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. VERY COOL: That table is useless- check out the graph I created
I did this after the 2004 election- this breaks down the vote on an actual vote, county basis.

Fuck the exit polls, look at the real thing I created:

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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I think you'd also find that a lot of the overwhelmingly Democratic counties are similar.
Edited on Tue May-27-08 06:24 AM by Zynx
Some of our best counties are in the Deep South as well and probably pretty poorly educated. I know on balance voters with higher educations now, at least at the highest end, vote Democratic, but things weren't always like this and still aren't depending on the location.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. What don't you understand??? This chart covers all counties!!!
What you're saying is like "please, let me substitute my totally emotionally-based imagined truth for this completely comprehensive chart you just presented to me."

What is wrong with you? Wow, am I sorry I painstakingly mapped the entire electorate county by freaking county against census data in excel after the last election. I guess I could have just substituted what you imagined to be true!

Good Lord.

:banghead:

Are there a few counties that are strongly Democratic and poorly educated? Probably, I can check my spreadsheets later. But do you understand that "on average" is not just some abstract concept and that summarizing information by groups leads to a more accurate reflection of the truth than "there are a few uneducated Democratic counties so I will dispute that the uneducated voted overwhelmingly for Bush in 2004"???

Holy Fuck.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. I am still flabbergasted by your response. Presented with overwhelming facts
you go with "but I *feel* differently, so let me respond with a few irrelevant anecdotals..."

I sometimes think I have lost the power to be shocked, but I am always proven wrong.
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 04:07 AM
Response to Original message
12. I think generalizing either way is wrong
Edited on Tue May-27-08 04:07 AM by davidpdx
I've seen a lot of generalizations about how Obama can't win working class people. I think that's just as frustrating. I don't even need to tell you where those threads are coming from because it's pretty obvious.

If you are going to advocate not making broad generalizing one way, you should advocate not making broad generalizations the other way as well.
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mucifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
22. Agreed! Plenty of highly educated people believed in eugenics.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Bush got the majority of their vote
I believe.
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Sulawesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
23. ". . . whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government"
Thomas Jefferson

I agree with your post, btw. We should not confused being educated with being informed...though one would hope there is a loose correlation there.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
25. K&R
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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
27. What's wrong with being edu-ma-cated?
:dunce:
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