The uncle Obama speaks about, was his name Charles W. PAYNE born about 1924?

[ShaneGR]

I was looking at Obama's family history, which is quite interesting, at this site:

http://genealogy.about.com/od/aframertrees/p/barack_obama.htm

You have to go to the second page to find the birth of Charles Payne on his mothers Kansas side in 1924. That's the only one that could make sense. I personally think the uncle was in Patton's army and would have liberated concentration camps, just not Auschwitz.

[DemsUnited]

1. Obama campaign clarifies this family story - great uncle at Buchenwald

not uncle at Auschwitz.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/27/rnc-hits-obama-over-auschwitz-claim/

Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton released a statement later Tuesday clarifying the remarks, saying the Illinois senator meant to refer to the Buchenwald camp, which American soldiers did liberate. Obama was also apparently referring to his great uncle.

“Senator Obama’s family is proud of the service of his grandfather and uncles in World War II – especially the fact that his great uncle was a part of liberating one of the concentration camps at Buchenwald. Yesterday he mistakenly referred to Auschwitz instead of Buchenwald in telling of his personal experience of a soldier in his family who served heroically,” Burton said.

[SoCalDem]

2. Every family has stories that filter down through the ages, and get

tweaked a bit here and there..nothing like Bosnia snipers, but get the dates & places sometimes a bit off..


For YEARS I assumed that my grandfather was born in Ireland, but much later in life I found out that he was born a few months after they arrived in Canada ..

was I LYING when ai reported his Irish birth? nope.. I tgought he WAS born there...until I found out he wasn't :)

[Bicoastal]

6. Great-uncle and uncle ARE, for all intents and purposes, the exact same thing.

I never saw my Grandmother's brother at holidays and said "Hi, Great-Uncle Harry!"

[TahitiNut]

8. I ALWAYS called my granduncle and grandaunt "Uncle" and "Aunt."

They were as essential a part of my childhood as my grandparents and uncles (mother's brothers) and aunts (their wives).

Actually, I called my grandaunt "Tante Andrea" ... since she was Norwegian and "tante" means "aunt" in Norwegian. "Onkel" is Norwegian for "uncle" so it's a toss-up which I was actually saying.

[DangerousRhythm]

27. Me too. I still do!

This "scandal" is ridiculous.

[4_Legs_Good]

36. Me too, Good 'ol Aunt Charlotte!

Funny well into her 90's!

We miss her!

David

[Zynx]

38. I can't name a person who doesn't actually.

[RamboLiberal]

20. Same in my family

My mother's sister and brother both died before I was born so she was left the only child. But there were a ton of people on her side who were aunts and uncles to me. To this day I have to think and correct myself that they were great-aunts and great-uncles when talking about them to someone who's not in the family. If it's just a story I'm relating I usually don't bother to clarify but just say my Aunt Hannah or Uncle Bill, etc.

[Tinksrival]

41. Especially if your raised by your grandparents

[Arkana]

13. Good move there.

He basically came out and said, "Yep, I screwed up--here's what I meant. NOW WHATCHA GONNA DO?!"

[petes]

24. so which uncle

here is a link to the kansas historical society list of WWII vets. Do you see a relative of Barack Obama? I don't.

http://www.kshs.org/genealogists/military/wwiiveteransresults.php?page=174&county=SG

Maybe he should try saying it was his aunt.

[rasputin1952]

32. Obama's family in...

KS is caucasian. It is widely known he is bi-racial, he comes from a diverse background.

[Pirate Smile]

3. That's the uncle. They mentioned his name on Hardball.

Obama's World War II history


Earlier, the Republican National Committee pounced on Obama's improbable statement that an uncle had served in the unit that liberated Auschwitz.

In fact, campaign spokesman Bill Burton says, his great uncle was a member of the 89th Infantry Division that liberated the Ohrduf camp, part of Buchenwald and, according to the Holocaust Museum, the first concentration camp liberated by U.S. troops.

The soldier in question, Burton said, is Obama's grandmother's brother, who's still alive.

UPDATE: "Senator Obama’s family is proud of the service of his grandfather and uncles in World War II – especially the fact that his great uncle was a part of liberating one of the concentration camps at Buchenwald. Yesterday he mistakenly referred to Auschwitz instead of Buchenwald in telling of his personal experience of a soldier in his family who served heroically," Burton says.

UPDATE: RNC spokesman Alex Conant, who said earlier that Obama's mistake raised questions about his "readiness to lead", moderates a bit: "At times it appears that Barack Obama inaccurately recalls his own history and American history, so it’s important that we point to the facts. In this case, we’re happy to see that he took the time to set the record straight."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Obamas_World_War_II_history.html

[roseBudd]

7. Oh but when Bush's daddy didn't know the date of Pearll Harbor that was OK

[Catherina]

4. That's what aides said too. Charlie Payne

Aides said his grandmother's brother, Charlie Payne, helped liberate a Buchenwald sub-camp in April 1945 as part of the 89th Infantry Division.

http://www.tri-cityherald.com/1182/story/195761.html

[beachmom]

5. Yep, he liberated the first concentration camp found by Allied forces.

Everything you ever wanted to know found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrdruf_forced_labor_camp

[cornermouse]

9. One little problem...

I went to ancestry.com and looked up their WW II draft registration cards and WW II enlistment records and WW II marine corps muster rolls for both Charles Payne and Charles W. Payne born between 1924-1926 in Kansas (per 1930 census record) and I don't see him. Granted that's probably not complete but his staff better start looking because you can bet that McCain already has.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cornermouse]

12. You prefer to be blindsided by the RNC?

[AllentownJake]

14. Agreed

They better have his war record ready to go.

Otherwise he's going to look very bad.

[Bicoastal]

15. Yeah, but some people won't be satisfied until the old gentleman is put on TV himself

and is made to show off his scars.

The other day, some random Internet person (not here) was going--"how come we never see Obama's children on the TV? We ALWAYS see Chelsea--what does Obama's family have to hide?" It's pretty disgusting.

[AllentownJake]

17. The smear email crap

will say stupid things however the Mainstream media and McCain camp won't go after his uncle if they have his war record intact.

[Boz]

25. Their not running for office in the near future, Chelsea is

[shadowknows69]

31. I hear his children are GASP! black.

[SoxFan]

39. Sacha stole a juice box last October

Didn't you see that on Hannity?

[indimuse]

18. really?

GROW UP K! You are probably the more distorted poster here. YOU have been ATTACKING Hillary(((( Hillary IS A DEMOCRAT....so you won't post anymore HIT JOBS ON HER ... WILL YOU???!!!))) for months! Why do you hate THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY so much?? We are supposed to loving...caring...forgiving...YOU, Obama peeps...keep trying to GET RID OF THE AUTHENTIC ....Concerned members! Breath in Breath OUT! I will NOT vote for MC..AS WELL AS BO!

[RamboLiberal]

22. Was ancestry.com perhaps missing some records

from that veterans record center - I believe in St. Louis - that lost many of the records of WWII vets to a very devastating fire?

On edit I googled it - 80% of Army records were lost in that fire. They did not have duplicates.

On July 12, 1973, a disastrous fire at NPRC (MPR) destroyed approximately 16-18 million Official Military Personnel Files. The affected record collections are described below.

Branch Personnel and Period Affected Estimated Loss
Army Personnel discharged November 1, 1912, to January 1, 1960 80%
Air Force Personnel discharged, September 25, 1947, to January 1, 1964
(with names alphabetically after Hubbard, James E.)
75%

No duplicate copies of the records that were destroyed in the fire were maintained, nor was a microfilm copy ever produced. There were no indexes created prior to the fire. In addition, millions of documents had been lent to the Department of Veterans Affairs before the fire occurred. Therefore, a complete listing of the records that were lost is not available. Nevertheless, NPRC (MPR) uses many alternate sources in its efforts to reconstruct basic service information to respond to requests.

http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/fire-1973.html

[cornermouse]

26. I don't know.

Like I said, their database may not have been complete.

[ruby slippers]

29. see my post below

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=510002550

Charles W. Payne, born 1924, enlisted 10Nov42, Navy, 6293977 Registered, order #12019, Kansas City, Wyandotte Co., Board #4

[AllentownJake]

11. There is a story in my family

That one of my great uncles was in the brig when Pearl Harbor was bombed. No one knows if its true or if it was a joke his brothers used to rib him with. The only thing we found out was when he passed away is the he had alot of Medals for whatever he did that day and he didn't talk about.

[cornermouse]

30. I suspect you'd have to dredge up a lot of memories that

it took a lot time to bury if you talked about it. Talking about it works well for some people and doesn't for others. For whatever its worth because I have always found it very hard to look at WWII books, documentaries, and even movies so I'm not very knowledgeable about the details.


http://www.history.army.mil/lineage/cc/089id.htm

Combat Chronicle 89th Infantry Division

World War II

Activated: 15 July 1942. Overseas: 10 January 1945. Campaigns: Rhineland, Central Europe. Days of combat: 57. Awards: DSM-1 ; SS-46; LM-5; SM-1 ; BSM-135 ; AM-17. Commanders: Maj. Gen. William H. Gill (July 1942-February 1943), Maj. Gen. Thomas D. Finley (February 1943 to inactivation). Returned to U. S.: 16 December 1945. Inactivated: 27 December 1945.
Combat Chronicle

The 89th Infantry Division landed in France at Le Havre, 21 January 1945, and engaged in several weeks of precombat training before moving up to the Sauer River into jump-off positions east of Echternach, 11 March 1945. The neat day, the offensive began, and the 89th plunged across the Sauer in a rapid advance to and across the Moselle, 17 March. The offensive rolled on, and the Division crossed the Rhine, 26 March, between the towns of Kestert and Kaub. In April, the 89th attacked toward Eisenach, taking that town, 6 April. The next objective was Friedrichroda, core of the vaunted Nazi Redoubt in Thuringia. The city was secured by 8 April. The Division continued to move eastward toward the Mulde River, capturing Zwickau by the 17th of the month. The advance was halted, 23 April, and from then until VE-day, the Division saw only limited action, engaging in patrolling and general security. Three towns, Lossnitz, Aue, and Stollberg, were kept under constant pressure, but no attacks were launched.
Assignments in the ETO*

21 January 1945: Fifteenth Army, 12th Army Group. 4 March 1945: XII Corps,

560

Third Army, 12th Army Group. 23 March 1945: VIII Corps. 22 April 1945: VIII Corps, First Army, 12th Army Group.
General

Nickname: Rolling W ; also called Middle West Division. Slogan: Get it done Shoulder patch: A black bordered khaki circle containing the letter "W" within a black bordered circle. Association: 89th Division Society of World War II, Box 2344, Roanoke, Va. Publications: 89th Infantry Division, 1942-45 ; by unit members; The Infantry Journal, Washington 6, D. C.; 1947. Rolling Ahead; by unit members; TI&E, ETOUSA; distributor, secretary, 89th Division Society of World War II ; 1947.

*See footnote, 1st Infantry Division.

[rzemanfl]

16. Jack Cafferty equated this mistake to dialing a wrong number,

which was a pretty apt comparison.

[BlooInBloo]

19. The Holocaust Museum confirms Obama's description...

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10006140

http://www.americablog.com/2008/05/holocaust-museum-confirms-obamas-uncles.html

Apparently, the Republicans* are trying to make political hay out of Auschwitz. Well, last week was Hitler, so why am I surprised.

Yesterday, Obama mentioned that his uncle, Charlie Payne, helped to liberate the Nazi concentration camp at Auschwitz. The Republicans were hoping that they could catch Obama lying - that maybe Obama never had an uncle who helped liberate the Jews in Europe. Well, in fact, Obama's uncle (his grandmother's brother) helped liberate the Nazi camp at Buchenwald (Obama mixed up Auschwitz and Buchenwald). So the Republicans (and a few Hillary fans emailed me as well) are trying to allege... what exactly? That Obama's family did in fact help save the Jews in Europe, but Obama got the name of the camp he liberated wrong? Okay. I'm not quite sure how that gives us any insight into Obama (other than his uncle is a hero) - I don't really know the difference Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Bergen Belsen and the rest of the camps. I just know that I'd be damn proud if a member of my family helped liberate them. Not to mention, according to the US Holocaust Museum, Obama's uncle's Infantry Division didn't just liberate one of the camps that made up Buchenwald. It was the first Nazi concentration camp liberated by US troops in all of Germany. That's pretty amazing.

* And some incredibly shitty people who sometimes call themselves "Democrats".

[bill for obama]

23. Man -

A division is a lot of people. And those camps fell one after the other - to what units - what is the difference??

I am not going to sit here and parse - what company he was in when and all that. I remember what they did to Kerry - and not again. Many camps fell between 4/4 and 4/30 - to American forces (some to Russians too) it was about a week between the fall of the Buchenwald and the Dachau camps, as I remember - THEY WERE ALL THE SAME!!!

Americans liberated ALOT of death camps in April of 1945 - I dare anybody to name them all!!

Not just Jews you know.

[Elmagoo]

21. Obama has a great family

[ruby slippers]

28. From the History Channel discussion thread...info on Charlie

Charles W. Payne, born 1924, enlisted 10Nov42, Navy, 6293977 Registered, order #12019, Kansas City, Wyandotte Co., Board #4 http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=510002550

[jdbolick]

33. Obama gave a different story in his 2002 speeches

In 2002, Obama said:
"Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances. The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil. I don't oppose all wars.

My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain. I don't oppose all wars."


So Obama changed the story from his grandfather to his uncle, and from hearing about the concentration camps to being there. That makes it very, very hard to claim this was an honest mistake. This is really bad news for his candidacy if the media pays any attention to it. After the Selma thing and the Chavez comments, it's getting to be a disconcerting pattern.

[SoonerPride]

34. Who did you used to be before you were tombstoned?

I wonder

[jdbolick]

35. Ignoring the issue isn't going to make it go away

I used my actual name, so I'm not sure what you're implying here. I've never posted on this board before, I simply found it as one of the top Google links on this story.

[FrenchieCat]

40. Quoting without sourcing links is not going to make you any friends here......

but it might buy you a pizza.


just sayin'

[jdbolick]

43. How about Obama's own website as a source?

I'm not making this up, guys. Look: http://www.barackobama.com/2002/10/02/remarks_of_illinois_state_sen.php

"Remarks of Illinois State Sen. Barack Obama Against Going to War with Iraq
| October 02, 2002

October 2, 2002

Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances. The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil. I don't oppose all wars.

My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain. I don't oppose all wars."

Now momentarily ignoring the fact that someone on his staff should have known enough history to inform him then that U.S. troops didn't liberate Auschwitz, having told this story before with different facts makes it extremely hard to dismiss as just a mistake.

If you think this is going to blow over, you have your head in the sand. He should have just come out and said that he made a mistake instead of trying to cover it up by referencing a great uncle who served on the other side of the planet from Ohrdruf. No one is perfect and the American people will forgive errors, but you make things countless times worse by trying to cover it up. And given that he has a pattern of these kinds of mistakes, this is very troubling. Now I'm not saying that Hillary should be the candidate instead, but Obama has to cut this crap out. He has to know what he's saying is true, and admit mistakes when they happen.

[onenote]

42. I know that this is going to be hard for someone with only half a brain to understand

but Obama's great uncle and his father both fought in WWII. There is nothing inconsistent or overlapping about the story he tells of his father hearing the stoires of troops who entered concentration camps and his recalling the family stories of how his great-uncle was so affected by his experience that he probably suffered from what we now know as PTSD.

FAIL.

[jdbolick]

44. If you can't answer the point, don't bother with insults

Your nom de plume seems entirely too appropriate given that you're singing a one note chorus here. Check the facts that have already been posted. Obama's great uncle served in the Navy in the Pacific Ocean. Neither Auschwitz or Ohrdruf were in the Pacific Ocean. Try changing your tune.

[onenote]

47. so how does it feel to be revealed as a swiftboating liar?

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/5/29/12757/9330/352#c352

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. "Obama's great uncle served in the Navy in the Pacific Ocean."

That's the wrong Charles Payne, dingus.

"Try changing your tune."

Try not reading Stormfront, you won't make yourself look like such a fool next time.

[Teaser]

50. You were served.

Like a goddamn tennis ball.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jdbolick]

46. Wake up

Calling me a "dumbass" isn't going to change the fact that his great uncle served in the Navy, not the Army, and was nowhere near any concentration camps. All you're doing is proving that you're devoted to Obama and too scared to admit that he screwed up.

[onenote]

48. go to sleep

you are a exactly what you were called. Actually, you are a lot worse than that.

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/5/29/12757/9330/352#c352

[Irishonly]

37. In the grand scheme of life

Obama's statement about his great uncle isn't the huge thing some people are trying to make of it. Sometimes stories about families get changed over the years. It's trite. There could have been a problem if Obama had stated his uncle had single handedly defeated the Nazis while dancing an Irish jig. His uncle helped liberate a concentration camp. He had the name of the camp wrong and not the history.