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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:17 PM
Original message
And now for something completely different: intelligent discussion of swing states
Edited on Tue May-27-08 06:29 PM by Hardhead
David Kurtz over at TPM has put together what amounts to a 'thread' discussing Obama's campaign strategy regarding swing states.

TPM Reader BC makes an interesting point:


I think there's a bit more than meets the eye to Obama's swing through New Mexico, Colorado and Nevada this week. Of course, he wants to start wooing swing states for the general election. But I suspect he began with these three because he also wants to start shifting the media narrative about where he needs to win in November to capture a majority of electoral votes.

One of the subtle advantages Hillary has had in making her "I do better in the swing states" argument is that her potential path to electoral victory looks much more like the traditional Democratic map. Above all it hinges on Ohio and Florida, which have been seared into traumatized Democrats' minds as ground zero for narrow defeats (or stolen victories). The press, always eager for a simple, dramatic narrative, has happily indulged Clinton's emphasis on these states, and will likely continue to do so when the focus shifts to Obama vs. McCain.

Obama's challenge is that he has an equally legitimate path to victory, but it runs through states that neither the media nor the Democratic base readily conceive of as pivotal. Together, New Mexico, Colorado and Nevada offer 19 electoral votes -- only one less than Ohio. Add in Iowa, where Obama also shows unusual strength, and you get up to 26 -- one less than Florida.

Obama can afford to lose one of those "traditional" swing states if he makes it up in these states where he seems to have unique appeal. But if the campaign press corps decides to go spend the next six months camped out in Ohio and Florida filing hand-wringing stories about his struggles with "white working class" voters or elderly Jews, he never gets to make that case, the narrative about his campaign's chances will be much more dour, and some of that pessimism may sink in with the electorate.

Campaign tours like this one -- not to mention last Tuesday's primary night victory speech in Iowa -- are a subtle way to start putting these "Obama swing states" on reporters' radar screens and prime them to tell a different electoral story.


Late Update: Dissent, from readers.

TPM Reader JE:

You badly misrepresent the Obama electoral map strategy. He's not visiting western purple states and ignoring Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida. Before this western state trip he went to Florida and had what, by all accounts, was a enormously successful set of events, impressing several audiences he supposedly will have trouble impressing. Obama isn't gambling anything, and he will run hard in Florida and Pennsylvania and Ohio. But he will not cede a number of other states that Democratic candidates haven't taken seriously in recent elections. His strategy is to increase the number of states that can reasonably be called competitive. By labeling this a "gamble," you miss the bigger point and play right into a silly MSM talking point.


TPM Reader SR:

David, I don't know why you're "scratching your head." The simple fact is that what you're calling "the tried and true path to the presidency for a Democrat" has never actually worked! Ever! Carter won in 76 by carrying the South. Johnson won in 64 by carrying everywhere. Kennedy? Well take at look at his map, it's like some alternate universe. http://www.presidentelect.org/e1960.html "The only time your "tried and true" path more or less worked was in '92 and '96 and, in both case, it only worked because of Ross Perot, the most successful third party candidate in history. Both times, Bill failed to win an electoral majority in many of the key states on the "tried and true path" by a wide margin. Obama's electoral map is not about brilliant or stupid. Its about how doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is the definition of stupidity, not insanity. (The definition of insanity is making up your own facts, or your own math, and insisting they're as good as anyone else's facts/math.)


Likewise, TPM Reader CN:

Would Obama's pursuit of electoral-college victory based on non-traditional swing states really be a "high-stakes gamble"? High stakes, sure; it's a presidential election so the stakes are always high. But I don't see the gamble: each state produces a known quantity of electoral votes, and I have heard nothing to suggest that voters in NM or CO are less persuadable than voters in FL and OH. If the polls show that Obama's clearest path to victory is through a "new" electoral map, wouldn't the real gamble be to ignore his unique strengths and try to win through the "traditional" map? Sounds like that meta-message to the press is needed. Remember that Obama also used a non-traditional path to victory in the primary: organize every state, relentlessly organize the caucus states, and prepare for the long haul. Hillary put all her money on the "traditional" path to the nomination, believing it was the only winning path. She was surprised, to say the least. Will McCain also discount Obama's strategy?


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/197134.php


Veddy interesting. I like to see anyone going beyond the traditional "we can win these states and forget the others" thinking that has become such an ingrained way of life for democratic campaign consultants. This is a forward-thinking version of the same strategy that will shortly win him the nomination. It's also very much the way Howard Dean thinks.

It's easy now to say that the Clinton campaign underestimated Obama, but I don't think they'll be the last ones to make that mistake. (Nor will I.) He's good at this game. Very good. He's much better at it than I have previously realized.

*btw, any stray admins who might read this: there should be a "color" option for the background of excerpt divisions, to distinguish nested excerpts. I'll send you some development funds once I'm flush. ;)
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why do swing states always play country music?
Sorry, but I couldn't help but be NOT intelligent.
:bounce:
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Okay, admit it - you didn't read any of that
That's okay. One-liners are perfectly acceptable, so long as they're witty. I'll let you off this time, but next time there's a pop quiz.

I need a 'rapping knuckles with a ruler' smiley.
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. That's called Western Swing
Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys or Asleep at the Wheel for the younger crowd.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. 2008 is a very different template than 2000/2004.
Obama's candidacy opens up all kinds of possibilities particularly in the west.
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Do you have a choice for Veep?
I have no idea who will round out this ticket.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. many
Wes Clark
Bill Richardson
Joe Biden
Kathleen Sebelius
John Edwards
Ed Rendell

Off the top of my head.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Please no Ed Rendell!
He's only trouble on an Obama ticket.

Trouble Barack doesn't need
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXum_-8I1TA
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. here's what stood out for me
Rendell was on a talking head show on tee-vee (they are all a blur now) and relayed that Obama phoned him, told him he's going to be the nominee, and that he wanted to make sure nothing is said or goes down in Pennsylvania that would hurt the Dem nominee in the primary. And Rendell shut the hell up and I never heard him trash talk Obama after that.

I noticed that because most of her other surrogates have been a-holes.

You're probably right. I threw Clark and Rendell in there as an HRC camp compromise. But I really lean towards Richardson and Biden as helping Obama the most.
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FARAFIELD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. First of all, there is no Traditional swing states, thats a myth
Things are different almost everytime. Ill say this though, OBAMA swing states are different. If he wants to win BARELY he can go for IOWA, NEW MEXICO, Colorado and NEVADA (give McBush new hampshire) that will give OBAMA the GE. (of course there is the nightmare that he could win CO, NM and IA and we would have an EV Tie (christ) I think he (obama) can put Virginia in play, and that will cost McCain a ton of money to keep red. Meanwhile Obama goes into NV etc. I think anychance of winning OHIO or Florida (under Hillary or Obama is foolish). Unless one of them gets 53 or 54 percent of the GE vote total.
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Interesting
And not only are swing states not these unchanging monoliths: some of the supposed non-swing states can come into play. That just blows my democratic mind. If I'm not careful, I may soon succumb to poll-checkers disease, on a state-by-state basis.

Have I ever mentioned that Howard Dean is the best thing that's happened to this party in my adult life?

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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. You can thank Howard for what's happening now
He initiated the 50-state strategy, and the Obama campaign followed suit.

Those special election victories probably, wouldn't have happened without Dean's investment in areas that don't count.
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. And I do
He is the anti-Rove. The man is worth his weight in gold, many times over. I could almost get kooky enough to build a shrine to him, but it would be hard to explain to my friends and my parents.

Still proud to have voted for him.
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. Money is going to be important in this one.
Again, Hillary is hurting the party... Damn, I wish she wasn't such a narcissist.
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. One good strategy that the Hillary campaign had was
Edited on Tue May-27-08 06:36 PM by CaptJasHook
to send Bill to small towns. He used his celebrity status to influence voters and his famous political skills to shift votes to his wife amongst less educated voters.

Obama would be wise to pick a VP who can do the same thing out in the back country. He doesn't need another "City-Slicker"
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yes. Having a rock star for a spouse is a nice extra.
It's too bad the blood is so bad. I don't see Bill doing any serious campaigning for Obama. Happy to be wrong, but the tension would be pretty thick. Plus he loves the spotlight too much.

I have no thoughts on VPs. I don't know enough about most of the names being floated. Webb is very conservative, which of course wouldn't thrill me, but he plays well in Virginia.
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The point is, Obama is going to need some one who speaks Kentuckian.
As well as the rest of rural America.

We shouldn't write them off any more. Democrats could pick up a lot of those votes this year.
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I agree. He needs to get in there and get at it
Unless I misjudge him, he is going to give it his best shot. I used to live in Kentucky (I've lived all over the South, in fact), but I don't know anyone on the national stage (beyond Bill) who 'speaks Kentuckian.'

(And have you ever heard a deep Appalachian accent? When I moved to Pikeville, I literally could understand maybe one word in ten at first. It's a foreign fucking language.)

But yes, too long they've been written off as unwinnable. It's amazing to see that starting to change. It's amazing to see what Howard Dean has done. If I had my way, he would not be allowed to leave his current post for another four years. He's the perfect person in the perfect place, at just the right time.

(I didn't really intend to turn this into a Dean rah-rah thread, but I guess any discussion of swing states leads in his direction soon enough.)
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. We have a real split in Oregon between East and West of the Cascades
I have friends on both sides and know the dichotomies fairly well. Contrary to popular opinion, farmers are not looking for a handout, what they are looking for is a continuation of their way of life.... their culture if you will. A difficult prospect in the days of big Agro business and the gentrification of their small town life by suburbanite developers.

A believe that a refocusing on organic, sustainable agriculture, a light green industry, a shift away from cattle, and renewable energy policies will highly benefit small communities. But it is going to take a salesman.

Bill Clinton made the mistake in 93 of making promises to timber and fishing interests that were not sustainable. I hope that Obama will listen to more Progressive, scientifically based, Environmentally minded experts this time around.

It will be a hard sell, but if he can sell Progress as well as he sells himself... there is hope.
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. John Edwards & Robert Byrd? Both have come out for Obama
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. Yes, but he will need one of them in a high profile position.
As a party, we have fucking got to unite ASAP.
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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. You have hit the nail on the head.
A close friend caucused in NV. and I in WA. State. I think there's a lesson to be learned from the caucus states.

We both observed the willingness of those undecided, or even supportive of another candidate to listen and engage
in issue intense discussions. For some reason this plays out more productively in person than on a message board.

"Persuadable" is really the key word in the article you cited. Most reasonable people are aware of what's at stake.
They no longer trust the traditional, stale, MSM BS to help them come to terms with the decision they will have to
make.

I'm not sure I expressed my experience ad

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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. oops...hit post to soon. You catch my drift.
:)
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Adequately? Yes, you did
I think discussion boards are a bad place for discussion of candidates. Better for focusing on issues and policies and the news media. At least, judging by all the political forums I've been to.

I've never done a primary. I was jealous when I saw Iowa on the tubes. It looked like a lot of fun. Put me in mind of barn-raisings and other community events.
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cottonseed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
18. The Electoral Maps through the Years are Fascinating - I like 1992
Young, fresh, uplifting democratic presidential candidate versus a tired worn out Bush:

http://presidentelect.org/e1992.html

Besides a few states, this might look a lot like a 2008 map.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
20. McCain is the one Republican who can negate the so called
"western strategy". If Obama is going to run a campaign that counts on winning states like NM, CO, and NV, at the expense of the more traditional swing states like Florida and Ohio, then there's a very good chance we will lose this November.

McCain is a westerner and will be tough to beat on his home turf. You also need the Hispanic vote to win out here, and that's a demographic where Obama has shown weakness.
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I think McCain's support will ultimately be very soft
As long as we keep tying him to Bush. He's certainly not a wet paper bag, but he's not too much better off, and he's given us some wonderful material to work with. He's a pandering mess with no real principles beyond money and power for its own sake. People are hurting and some of them are starting to wise up to the game with the media. The GOP is taking losses in special elections in "safely red" districts, and they blew 1/5 of their total money for house races on a loser. George Bush is their albatross, even if we don't see him until December, because we've all seen eight years of these bozos on the teevee defending everything he does and attacking anyone who disagrees.

Everybody knows: Republicans are bad for America.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. you're talking like there's no need of a strategy
that McCain will beat himself. If you think it's going to be that easy, why did you start this thread?
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. McCain cannot claim the Western title.
He hasn't lived out here for decades. He is seen as a Washington insider and married to woman who is a Blue Blood.

I think the Western Maverick title will be hit hard and often. He may do well in Arizona... maybe. But he is soft in the other states. Be careful not to equate his success in the Rethuglican primary with the General.

As for the Hispanic vote, if Hillary gets behind us on this one, there is no way any Anti-immigration Rethuglican is going to take that demographic. They screwed themselves on that one.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Also my understanding is that 1/3 of Arizonians have never voted for McCain.....
(they are new to the state), and another 1/3 have only voted for him once.

Add the fact that I believe that Obama will do well with the Native American vote, and he's good to go.
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I still worry about the Hispanic vote if Clinton tries to raise a stink.
Their are also a lot of disgruntled elderly ladies in Pheonix (retirement home city). Just my opinion, but what Hillary does or doesn't do may have an effect in Arizona.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I'm not sure why you are worried.
Obama did well with Hispanics in New Mexico.

The Brown voting for the Brown really isn't the issue. It was that they Knew the Clinton name based on her husband.......but since she won't be on the ballot, I'm sure that many of them have pressing issues that overides Brown voting White. Also remember that many hispanics turned off from the Clintons with their "Richardson is a Judas, he should have endorsed before Texas to help out with the Hispanic vote" smear that they came out with when Richardson endorsed Obama.
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Thanks for the reassurance Frenchie
:toast:
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