It's 6 months into the Iraq pullout and the shit has hit the fan

[Laura PourMeADrink]

Most everyone who wants us to get out of Iraq has lingering
doubts - yikes what if the place blows up in a ball of
fire, what if another neighboring country charges in
a coup and overthrows the feeble government.

Trust me, the common person thinks this.

We all say it can't be any worse than the prevailing violence
existing today and the trickle of death that plays backstage
to American Idol.

For that reason, besides all the givens - someone he likes,
respects, thinks like him, can lead in the event, etc, etc.

Obama needs someone who 1) is close to an expert on Iraq and the middle east
as he can find, and 2) can hold their own against the shit that will be thrown at them
should violence increase with a pullout.

Like it or not - the press will be on this like white on rice. Although
they don't give a shit now - they will drag every stat out there to
show things are worse with a pullout. Especially the right wing.

Therefore, because we will need Obama to maintain his mandate - to get
all the other things done we need done - he needs to pick someone
who fits the criteria above.

Forget big states, swing states, a woman who doesn't fit the criteria,
Hillary to make her stop whining.

Help me out here - but I am thinking Biden or Zinni. Biden seems
to know more about Iraq than anyone I have heard. And he can definitely
hold his own in a debate.

[cliffordu]

1. Big Jim Webb.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

9. I didn't list this as criteria - but "charm". Have you ever seen Jim

Webb be charming? I haven't but - I really don't know him very well.

[cliffordu]

16. Hmmm, In that case I'd go with Clarke - Webb isn't uh, charming.

I like him when he starts smack talking the White House, though.

He and Clarke could be as smart as O.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

33. Me 2. He was great on the dem response = was it SOTU 2007? He

just strikes me as kind of like having a stick up his butt.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

34. Me 2. He was great on the dem response = was it SOTU 2007? He

just strikes me as kind of like having a stick up his butt.

[gateley]

2. Sounds like a job for Joe Biden. nt

[rug]

3. You don't need an expert let shit hit the fan.

Out. Period.

[cliffordu]

6. Rug, you and I agree wholeheartedly on this. Out. NOW.

[funflower]

10. What you're saying is let our shit hit innocent Iraqis

....like we've been doing for the last five years. We made this mess, we owe it to these poor people to try our best to fix it. No, we should never have gone there. Yes, we need to get out. But we need to be responsible to the people whose peace we have destroyed. For once, we need to put somebody else first.

[rug]

13. How many people do you propose should be killed to prevent shit from hitting a fan?

[funflower]

24. How many Iraqi children do you propose should die for our mistakes?

How many honor killings? How many young boys killed by former schoolmates who now hate them because they are Shia or Sunni or whatever?

We've made this mess, and we need to get out, but we can't just waltz in to their country, destroy their government and abandon these people.

Ask an Iraqi what they think. They don't us to just leave them to their fate.

[rug]

49. Not one more bullet should be sent there, not one more bomb shipped.

Your mistake is that you believe a bloodbath can be prevented without costing innocent blood. Bush's stated reason for going in was to prevent innocent blood from being shed by Baathists and terrorists. That worked out well. Give the Iraqis credit for handling their own lives. There is much this government can do to rebuild Iraq. Sending troops and weapons is not one of them.

[funflower]

50. The Iraqis need an honest broker to provide security.

I've spoken about this with Iraqis living in Iraq, and they are terrified of what will happen if the U.S. leaves.

[funflower]

51. I do agree about the bombs, however. They aren't need to provide

safe streets, schools, hospitals and businesses.

[Neshanic]

12. That is the way. But they will not do it. Hillary, Obama and certainly not McCain.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

18. I agree - let the chips fall. Out, YES, But, wouldn't you want someone who

knows more than everyone else defending the action?

If I were Obama - every single day - I would mention
that the troops did EXACTLY what they were told -
they got rid of Saddam, they searched for weapons,
and they secured it enough for people to vote.
Then add - it's time for Iraq to take over and
for our soldiers to come home. This all is
very true - and it is a far better rationale
than, "bad war, mistake, should have never
been there.." Although this is infinitely
true - it doesn't praise the soldiers who
have fought for their lives and the lives
of the fallen and have seen thousands upon
thousands come home maimed.

[Gore1FL]

4. Sounds like a job for a Sec of Defensce and National Security Advisor.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

19. Probably true - but I am thinking he will need this person upfront

during the campaign - i.e. VP. NSA - isn't that
announced much later?

[Gore1FL]

23. I thik there are a lot of good choices for VP

Some are knee deep in National Security issues, some are practically submerged in that knowledge, and some are only ankle deep.

We ran a military hero with heavy national defense credentials on the top of the ticket last time, and it didn't play out as expected.

The important thing is to have a competent VP. We aren't going to beat the perception of McCain on the issue of National security..

[Neshanic]

5. We. Are. Never. Leaving. Iraq.

Hillary, Obama, or McCain will never leave Iraq.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

21. hush your mouth - we have lived since 2003 for this hope! I thought

surely, we'd get out once people found out Bush lied us in there - but
hell no.

If Jan 21st doesn't start the pullout - then I don't know what I
would do.

[Neshanic]

32. Sorry, that's the facts, I just report em'. I grew up knowing nothing but that a war

was being fought, and it just went on and on.....from 1st grade to seeing people flee from a rooftop.

Same thing. Same result. Just a bigger embassy with more room for choppers.

[funflower]

42. We got out of Vietnam.

Although I think we could have negotiated for a more peaceful transition to North Vietnamese or coalition rule.

[Neshanic]

45. Uh, just keep thinking those happy thoughts. Nike plants did not appear over night.

[funflower]

52. I don't get the relevance of your comment about the Nike factories.

We pulled out of Vietnam, leaving chaos. My Vietnamese immigrant friends have told me about the tough period that followed the U.S. pull-out. Not that things were good before the U.S. left either. The potential bloodbath in Iraq will be far worse because of the religious and tribal hatred that will fuel it.

[stillcool]

53. Don't you think that's a little..

simplistic? I have no idea what Iraq will look like in 4 years. It took the Soviets 10 years to get out of Afghanistan with help from the U.S. It might take us less to get out of Iraq, with the help of the Russians and the Chinese. I can't imagine how anyone could say with certainty what is going to happen in Iraq. I don't know how anyone could say with certainty what is happening now in Iraq. All that I know, is that the oil laws have yet to be signed.

[funflower]

36. My hope is that Obama can bring together a "coalition of the willing" to help provide security and

rebuild this country that we've destroyed. An international coalition would be more credible than a U.S. occupation. We need to end military operations, but we can't just abandon the Iraqis to civil war and brutal fundamentalist rule.

[Neshanic]

43. No it will be a Vietnam redux. Right down to the exit after the first term of whoever wins in 2008.

[funflower]

54. Geez, you are depressing. I think Obama is three times the politician Jimmy Carter was.

[Skittles]

40. they cannot quite grasp this, can they Nesh? n/t

[Laura PourMeADrink]

44. Duh. Of course we do. Get out, now - I truly want that. But, you

have to get in there first (WH) to get out of Iraq. I am for ANYTHING
that helps get to that end.

[Skittles]

47. how about defunding the fucking thing

how about that?

[Neshanic]

48. No, really they can't and it is very sad. Sad because

it really is history in a loop repeating itself.

No Democrat will EVER leave Iraq. Never EVER! They will not be the one that lost the middle east. That leaves McCain, and we all know his position, and he's the kinda take charge guy that will get up there and say he wants a draft in early 2010.

[AllentownJake]

7. Wesley Clark

4 star General who managed Nato's resolution of Yugoslavia.

[TheWraith]

8. Clark would be a good choice.

There are few things that say "military competance" more than "Supreme Commander, NATO Allied Forces Europe."

[Exilednight]

11. The shit is going to hit the fan at some point, whether it's now, or as McCain wants, a 1000 .......

years from now. As the old saying goes, better sooner than later.

[anigbrowl]

14. Powell could do it.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

25. interesting idea. I do wonder though - he seems like quite a whimp

to me. He passively allowed all the Bush shit to happen, didn't he.

[funflower]

15. If you're talking about VEEP, Biden is just too much of an ass for the job.

The man has been in the U.S. Senate since he could shave. He's like one of those people who stuffs the ballot box in a high school election. The thought of him being a heartbeat from the presidency disgusts me.

I'm not convinced a chest full of medals is the answer either. Look what they did to John Kerry.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

26. so, do you just discount the idea? or do you think someone else?

[funflower]

30. I don't know who s/b VP. Maybe one of the aforementioned for Sec of State or Defense. n/t

[Lerrad]

17. I don't think it is possible to pull out of Iraq with out .....

.... creating more trouble, or a different kind of trouble.

The job at hand will not be easy, and therefore I don't know why anyone would want to be our next president.

You are correct, the press will be on this like white on rice. If a Democrat is our next president I hope they don't make any promises that they can't keep, or they will only be serving one term.

Bush and Chaney and the rest of the crazies should be cleaning up their own mess.

[funflower]

27. I propose Bush and Cheney serve 3 or 4 tours each. n/t

With excellent medical when they lose a leg or an eye or something.

[99th_Monkey]

20. What more "mandate" does a President need than that the Iraqis themselves want US to pull out ASAP?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

29. You are so right. Man, if I was running - I'd be saying that everyday too.

[BlooInBloo]

22. The shit has already hit the fan.

[JimGinPA]

28. I Think Biden Would Be A Perfect Choice...

I will defer to Obama however, should he select someone else.

[mmonk]

31. That would be more in someone else's purview than the VP.

Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense both would shape policy and make arguments to the media. As Samantha Power says, it must be done smart and with different international aid agencies involved in different operations and more players.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

38. Well typically that is true. But this is not going to be a typical

situation. This pullout will be center stage. People
will want to make damn sure O has his act together
on this, before they vote for him. If it's the VP - they will be able to
persuade people during the campaign. Hell, McPain's already hammering
away on it.

[Auntie Bush]

35. How about Wes Clark?

Now that I read this thread I see I'm not the only one who wants Clark.
He's the one that has the know how and skills to get the troops out as safely as possible. Biden is a great knowledgeable politician on the subject but he is not a military man. WE/OBAMA NEEDS a military expert who can understand withdrawal linguistics and military planning. We need a General with Charisma as well as experience. Wes is the man!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

46. He's perfect, to me. He was always my first choice for Prez - must

have missed all the rationale as to why he decided not to get in. And then,
when he missed the boat to the future - and hooked up with Hillary - I
guess I just felt like he wasn't as brilliant as I thought.

[Auntie Bush]

55. He recognized Hillary was the most experienced and could have been.

best for the country with Bill by her side. Unfortunately he wasn't psychic though and had no idea how fellow Dems would turn on them.
How could he possibly have thought Obama could run this country and get us out of Iraq better than Hill and Bill with only 2 years in the senate?
I still can't believe it's happened. I just hope for the future of this country...the people know what they are doing. With Clark by his side I'd have a lot more faith in our future. Go WES GO!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

56. Not sold on her "experience." I always thought that was a Rovian

tactic - recognize your own weakness and then accuse the other. It has worked very, very well - but
has very little basis in fact. Little, if any, major legislation and a failed health care initiative.
I do give credit for her "being around the WH" though. I think you probably pick up a lot.

Nevertheless, Auntie - it all comes down to who you like and who you trust. You obviously like her -
but there is a fact that gets in the way of her winning it all - Half the people don't like her
and don't trust her. In Nov 2007 Zogby surveyed and found half the people said that they would
never ever vote for her. I heard someone say that once you become unliked, it is very, very
difficult to move that the other way. Her negatives have only risen since then.

Do you realize how much people dislike her? It seems you would have to. Do you really want
someone to squeek in (kind like Bush) and then have this divided country continue? Like it
or not - she is associated with all that.

[Samantha]

37. How about Richard Clarke?

Author of Against All Enemies and other bestsellers, told by the Bush* administration he would never work in Washington, D.C. again because of his revelations to the public in this book. He's got the credentials ... and he's owed restitution for the sacrifices he has made as one of the first courageous souls who dared to reveal the innermost workings of the Bush* administration when we truly needed to know. In that latter regard, he was virtually a stand-alone in that arena at that time.

First appointed under President George H.W. Bush, reappointed by President Clinton, continued to serve under George Bush* - who is more qualified (and more deserving) than he?

Sam

[Laura PourMeADrink]

41. I love him. Put him on the list !! nt

[SoonerPride]

39. So what? We can be there for 10 or 100 years and when we leave the same thing will happen.

Too bad.

sorry.

Arrest Bush and Cheney for war criems and let the Hague deal with them.

We can't keep a lid on sectarian violence forever.

That's the way it is.

[Occam Bandage]

57. Shit will hit the fan. It is going to hit the fan. It is going to be far worse than anything

we have seen yet in Iraq. The President who orders the withdrawal is going to assent to being blamed for tens to hundreds of thousands of deaths. The VP isn't going to be able to save him. I think he's going to have to do it:

1. Before the 2012 elections, and
2. Close enough that the shit won't really hit the fan until his second term.
3. With the knowledge that the Republicans will blame him for "giving up on the people of Iraq" for decades.