*** DNC Lawyers just released a 38 page Memo: "Florida and Michigan CAN'T be fully restored" ***

[ballsalicious]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/ap_on_el_pr/primary_scramble_1

WASHINGTON - A Democratic Party rules committee has the authority to restore delegates from Michigan and Florida but not fully seat the two states at the convention as Hillary Rodham Clinton wants, according to a party analysis.

Party rules require that the two states lose at least half of their convention delegates for holding elections too early, Democratic National Committee lawyers wrote in a 38-page memo.

The memo was sent late Tuesday to the 30 members of the party's Rules and Bylaws Committee, which plans to meet Saturday to consider the fate of convention delegates from the two states. The party is considering plans to restore at least some of the delegates to make sure the two important general election battlegrounds will be included at the nominating convention in August.

[Kittycat]

1. Well, there goes the protest.

[ballsalicious]

20. just saw this: Obama urges supporters not to demonstrate at crucial DNC meeting

http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/obama-urges-supporters-not-to-demonstrate-at-dnc-meeting-2008-05-28.html

[Hamlette]

48. classy move n/t

[Honeycombe8]

117. Yes, classy, as usual. Professional. Something an executive would do? I think so. nt

[mod mom]

90. COUNTER EVENT: Voter Registration in Virginia!

GOBAMA!

[Kittycat]

91. Yes, read it last night... I

was making a sarcastic comment to the Clinton Supporters. As in, what's the point in their protesting now.

The Obama Camp plan to GOTV is pure class.

[KSinTX]

115. They're keeping in high on the rec list over at dKos

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/28/0406/84066/829/523961

It was posted here by someone, but it dropped like a rock. I'm just hoping that enough people are cross-members.

[Johnny__Motown]

2. You don't honestly believe Clinton or her supporters will respect the rules do you? but thanks

for the info

[thewiseguy]

4. Yo! she is running for the nomination of democratic party.

:)

[Why Syzygy]

42. She's a lawyer. She should know a contract when she sees one.

[Tellurian]

76. a contract is invalid when used for criminal activity..

like fraud..

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

79. Arrest Harold Ickes!!!

I agree with Tellurian!

[mckeown1128]

80. What the hell are you talking about?!

What fraud?

[madrchsod]

94. fraud?

[Colobo]

116. C'mon Tellurian- Hillary agreed with the "fraud"...

[Carolina]

118. exactly, the rules don't apply to the Clintons

they have 15 (out of 30) people on the Rules Committee who won't go peacefully or graciously no matter the DNC lawyers say.

Then there are all those harpies who plan to protest and make a martyr out of HRC. :puke:

[PM7nj]

3. I think I just heard the Clinton camp go into Plan Z. nt

[billyoc]

9. Bold move, considering they never had plans B-Y.

:rofl:

[cliffordu]

28. Yeah, that sound was the goalposts being yanked out and moved

yet again.....

:rofl:

[Yukari Yakumo]

69. No, it'll be on to...

Plan ⑨

[ForeignSpectator]

104. I don't even think they had a plan "A", too!

:rofl:

[billyoc]

113. Right, unless you count "win everything on Super Tuesday"

:crazy:

[Lisa0825]

11. I like your variation of the Obama avatar.

I have often seen the rainbow in the bottom part. I think it looks very nice how yours is :)

[Poll_Blind]

5. Sabin, Weinstein et al. will make sure the ball's still in play. Even if deflated. n/t

PB

[GarbagemanLB]

6. LOL. S.S. Hillary sinks further beneath the waves.

[Poll_Blind]

7. I'm worried about what it will attempt to suck down with it. Very much so. n/t

PB

[HooptieWagon]

14. As long as its the DLC, I'm happy.

[Auntie Bush]

15. the Democratic party is sucking itself down the tube and right into McCain's lap.

We run the stupidest party ever on record...especially if we lose FL this election and angry Floridans vote for McCain. Why did they have to disenfranchise the voters? Anyone with brains would have fined the Party.

[MindMatter]

27. Nonsense.

Obama will give them plenty of attention. They will be just fine.

[Why Syzygy]

45. The GOP is stripping Florida of half THEIR delegates as well. Why would Ds be the bad guy in town?

Both sides are 'doing it'. Why is everyone assuming the Democrats will pay a price but the repukes won't?

[Tellurian]

77. Their learning curve is optimizing RNC lessons..

[dionysus]

95. penn is that you? can i get you some doughnuts?

[IsItJustMe]

87. Sound's like you have let Hillary's rhetoric get you all emotional about it. She does have a really

negative effect on people that way.

[MadBadger]

8. Well, Obama just won the nomination.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

21. Yes

[bhikkhu]

32. for about the 12th time...but at some point it will be for good

And in the meantime McCain just seems more and more incompetent. I am looking forward to him getting some press; and really looking forward to a series of debates.

[Tellurian]

78. The cartoon version of the nomination?

I agree!

[Kittycat]

92. Are you planning anything productive for Saturday now that your

protest is pointless?

[SayitAintSo]

10. Is this appause for votes not being counted ? n/t

[Lisa0825]

12. No, it is applause for previously agreed to rules being upheld. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

19. Why don't you ask Terry "The Rules Are The Rules" McAuliffe?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/25/165935/668/909/503541

"Carl, take it to the bank," I said. "They will not get a credential. The closest they'll get to Boston will be watching it on television. I will not let you break this entire nominating process for one state. The rules are the rules. If you want to call my bluff, Carl, you go ahead and do it."

[Carolina]

119. exactly

we need to throw Ickes', McAwful's and Shrillary's words back at them!

And since Hi-liar-y loves historical context, remind her and Billary that they accepted the rules in 1992 and 1996.

Fuck the Clintons and all their surrogates.

[platosrepublic]

13. Check mate Hillary Clinton.

The game is over!

[Cha]

16. Sounds like some progress

being by the DNC.. DNC lawyers sounds so sexy to meB-)

[ballsalicious]

25. you might need to get out more often...

sorry :shrug:

[Cha]

29. Brwawawaaa

It's okay..Democracy is sexy to me.

[suston96]

17. That's bullshit! Those rules violate the Democratic Party Charter.....

....The lawyers aren't telling us anything new. The Democratic Party can say goodbye to Florida and Michigan in November and maybe more.

[MadBadger]

24. Stop pretending "Rules" meaning anything to you.

[suston96]

34. Pretending? Rules and laws that violate charters and constitutions mean attacks on my rights....

Just as unconstitutional laws are thrown out by courts so should these political party rules that trash the Democratic Party Charter and thus the elections of two states.

[MadBadger]

35. Michigan and Florida broke the rules the party laid out...you dont seem to care.

[suston96]

36. Follow the bouncing ball: the party's rules violate their own charter.

The Democratic Party Charter says at the outset that ALL members are guaranteed full and equal participation in the nomination process. No rules can be made that deny that guarantee.

[SeattleGirl]

37. Where does it say that?

:shrug:

[suston96]

39. I have posted it many times.....

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:i1Dy8P2UOcoJ:www.democrats.org/pdfs/charter.pdf+Democratic+Party+Charter&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

Section 4.

The National Convention shall be composed of delegates equally divided between men and
women. The delegates shall be chosen through processes which:

(a) assure all Democratic voters full, timely and equal opportunity to participate........

(b) assure that delegations fairly reflect the division of preferences expressed by those who
participate in the Presidential nominating process.....

[smiley_glad_hands]

43. LOL, those are the rules for the convention not the primary.

Get a clue already. They broke the rules, what is so hard to understand?

[suston96]

46. Learn to read......They are what the rules for choosing delegates must be guided by.....nt

[smiley_glad_hands]

47. Why don't you post the rules about scheduling then? eom

[suston96]

51. I posted the link to the Democratic Party Charter. That contains everything.

Go to my journal where I have posted on this topic time and time again.

I cannot believe that there are Democrats who are so blinded by their support for their candidate that they believe that not counting the votes of 2.3 million fellow democrats is a good thing.

Shame! Shame! Shame!

[smiley_glad_hands]

53. Post the rules on scheduling.

You can't cause you would contradict yourself.

[Sancho]

84. Some of you should read the "rules": posted in a state that broke the rules...

by their own party people...NH, SC, etc. broke the rules:

http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/node/view/5465

and then read the story from the FL Democratic Party as posted by them a year ago before the primary.

http://www.makeitcountflorida.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/

[ballsalicious]

49. stop yelling at each other... that's my new rule!

[smiley_glad_hands]

54. I aint yelling. LOL eom

[blogslut]

52. You post the rub in your theory

assure all Democratic voters full, timely and equal opportunity to participate...

Those primary voters in Michigan and Florida were denied a full, timely and equal opportunity to participate. They were told that their conventions were nothing more than beauty contests. They were told their votes would not count. Participating candidates were not represented in a meaningful way. That affected turnout. That affected their votes. That affected their opportunity to vote with timely and equal participation. Florida and Michigan broke the charter.

[smiley_glad_hands]

55. Bingo.

[msallied]

60. Fools they are.

People voted. They were not denied the right to vote. The DNC didn't violate its own charter. LMAO

edited: I originally replied to the wrong sub-thread, making it look like I was disagreeing with you. Sorry bout that!

[Tellurian]

81. But they were not treated "fairly"... NH broke the Rules...and received NO punishment!

[suston96]

97. They are voters who showed up on time and voted - in both parties - over 5 million of them....

Party hacks and state legislators screwed up so 5 million voters are punished by not counting their votes?

Be proud Democrats - members of the party that has championed voting rights for centuries!

It's not about Clinton or Obama. It's about the voters - the lifeblood of a democratic republic.

Punish the hacks! Fine them. But you cannot cancel an election! The Democratic Party Charter is clear and forceful - all members must be guaranteed full and equal participation in the nominating process.

[ejpoeta]

105. the problem comes when this is brought up

AFTER the fact. Not before the 'votes', but after. There were people who stayed home because they were told that the vote wouldn't count. So they are being disenfranchised also. A case could be made for Florida maybe, but Michigan is ridiculous! There is no way that should be counted as it stands, since obama wasn't even on the ballot. But then again, no one was crying foul before. If anyone was so upset by it, the time to say something would have been BEFORE the primaries. Period. And it is funny to me that HRC keeps yacking about how important it is to count the votes, and yet she still expects the supers to ignore the votes of the states that gave obama the most delegates and hand it to her. So she really doesn't give a crap about the rules, or the voters, or anyone else but herself. She wants the nomination she believes is hers, and screw anyone who gets in her way.

[Zachstar]

108. BINGO!!!

[KSinTX]

120. First of all, that's outdated

Here's the new one: http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v001/democratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/pdfs/20060119_charter.pdf

The rules changed and are expanded. Have to read the entire thing to get the full meaning of the thing. Excerpts of excerpts won't cut it.

[MadBadger]

40. Not even Terry "Baghdad Bob" McAulliffe believes what you just said.

[Tellurian]

82. and you know this how?

[MadBadger]

98. Because Terry in his book tells how he threatened to take away half of MI's Delegates

for doing the same exact thing in 2004.

[Zachstar]

109. BINGO!!!

[Why Syzygy]

50. Florida DID receive the guarantee! They were guaranteed

"participation in the nomination process". They are the ones who denied themselves the opportunity.
The DNC kept its part by setting up a "process" which was agreeable to all at the beginning.
There is your guarantee. They cannot FORCE anyone to accept the "process".
If you REJECT THE PROCESS, you REJECT THE GUARANTEE.

[tkmorris]

59. And Florida and Michigan were given exactly that

They CHOSE not to avail themselves of it. They are guaranteed the opportunity to participate provided they do so WITHIN THE RULES OF THE NATIONAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY. They chose not to do that, instead willfully and with knowledge beforehand that their primaries were not within the rules. Given multiple opportunities to correct that, they both refused.

You are just making silly arguments now. Please understand that I say that not as an Obama supporter, but as a neutral party who simply wants to win in November.

[cali]

73. you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about. NONE>

There is nothing unconstitutional about parties setting the rules for the nominating process. And grab a clue: The repukes cut the delegates in half as a punative measure too. Try actually educating yourself.

[Zachstar]

107. The democratic party can do what it likes it has no effect on your vote in November.

You can vote for Mickey Mouse still no?

[zulchzulu]

33. So the rules should be changed (which were agreed to by HRC) now that she is losing?

It's the bottom of the ninth. Two outs! Three balls, two strikes... wait! Someone is coming out of the dugout. Talking to the umpire. So now the rules are a single equals a home run! OK!!!

:sarcasm:

[cliffordu]

38. I keep hearing this- do you have numbers someplace or are you just

expressing a feeling?

[suston96]

41. Repeatedly posted on GD: P by me many times.......

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/suston96/2358

[smiley_glad_hands]

44. You got your rules mixed up. LOL

[cliffordu]

63. I said NUMBERS, How many Democrats will stay home -

what are the margins we will lose by if she doesn't get EXACTLY what she wants??

[DesEtoiles]

68. those that stay home aren't Democrats - they are something else

[cliffordu]

99. I know - I keep hearing these threats about the armies of voters

staying at home and yet no one has any numbers.


All threats, no action.

[tkmorris]

57. No they don't *sigh*

Don't just make things up.

[IsItJustMe]

88. Fear mongering again. You are not very positive, are you?

[madfloridian]

18. Glad they released this...50% is AUTOMATIC...can not be restored.

Trouble is we have a candidate that does not consider the DNC rules the same as hers. She said so.

[Cha]

22. Sounds like their latest plan is to

drag this through the courts then until the convention so she can weasel her way in.

What a pay back if she gets disinvited to the convention instead.

[druidity33]

114. the solution will be

to seat ALL the delegates but give everyone half votes...

that way everyone can go to the convention and there won't be so many "hurt feelings".

:shrug:

[Major Hogwash]

23. Them damn rules.

Set up by Terry McAwful back in 2003.

[nyccitizen]

26. Proposal: Seat the pledged delegates but strip both states of their supers...

Find an accomodation for Obama in the MI uncommitted delegates, and seat both the MI/FL delegations with the full amount of pledged delegates but no supers. That would respect the voters of the states but punish the local party insiders who helped move the primaries.

For those who say this is not enough, I would argue MI & FL have already been severely punished in that they will ultimately be the last states to weigh in, instead of the first as they intended by moving their primaries.

This won't affect Obama's march to the nomination, but it will squash any argument Hillary's supporters have that the will of the voters isn't being represented.

[PassingFair]

85. The voters were disrespected BEFORE the primaries...

when their STATES broke the rules.

The resulting votes are NOT representative
of the will of the public, ESPECIALLY here
in Michigan.

Still, the fairest solution I have heard
was to seat Michigan 50/50 and sit Florida
as is.

Those arguing that full delegations be seated
AS IS in both states are NOT making the case
for representation of the people. The people
voted (or DIDN'T) vote based on the knowledge
that the primaries were invalid.

[IsItJustMe]

89. Did you not read the article. At the very best, they can only seat them at half wait, period. And

that is at best.

[Zachstar]

112. They can't do that.

The rules say that regardless of the deal the states MUST count for only half.

[caligirl]

30. HRC needs to live up to the agreement she signed, otherwise all agreements by her

will be seen as being as untrustworthy as our current idiot in chief. Isn't quaint the word?

[zulchzulu]

31. How surprising! The Rules and Bylaws Committee stands by its rules set for 2008?

:sarcasm:

[thoughtcrime1984]

58. Yep, rules and bylaws are so hard to honor

They're made to be broken by some, I guess.

[Ravy]

56. Actually, didn't the same rules committee give an exemption to the four states who were allowed?

I seem to remember something about that.

"Iowa and New Hampshire officials -- zealous guardians of their longstanding primacy in the presidential nominating process -- are advancing the dates of their contests to very early January because several states have flouted the delegate selection rules of both national party committees. These rules generally bar state parties from holding binding 2008 primaries or caucuses before Feb. 5.

Under a schedule approved last year by the Democratic National Committee (DNC), the Iowa caucuses were supposed to be held on Jan. 14 (and no earlier), followed by caucuses in Nevada on Jan. 19, the New Hampshire primary on Jan. 22 and a primary in South Carolina on Jan. 29."

http://www.eons.com/money/feature/insureyourfuture/iowa-gops-jan-3-caucus-date-takes-frontloading-to-new-level/21641

[madfloridian]

62. No, hell, no. No, hell, no.

The four states got permission from and worked with the DNC. They did NOT move ahead until they were leapfrogged by FL and MI, and then they did it with permission from the DNC.

Good lord, nothing sinks in.

[Ravy]

67. Then, the DNC can give all of the delegates back,

I am not suggesting that they do, I am just saying that if the DNC has the power to absolve one state of any penalty, then it should have the power to absolve any state of any penalty. Maybe the lawyers are correct and the rules committee by itself can't (unless they are the ones that absolved the four states of their penalty), but there is obviously some entity that had within its power the ability to remove the penalty entirely.

That doesn't bode well for this process ending soon if it takes an entire DNC vote to override the penalty.

BTW, Florida didn't leapfrog any of the four states. I would have thought that would have sunk in by now, as well.

[RNdaSilva]

71. Ain't that the truth?

Exasperating!

Yep madfloridian, nothing sinks in. It's sad that some Floridians, and others here, aren't as wise as you.

Rules are rules.

Delegates select the candidate. (Not a flawed and contrived popular vote)

The Electoral College picks the President (Ask Bob Dole if this in fact true)

Please end this idiocy, it really is very simple.

Barack Obama is, and has been for months, the candidate of the Democratic Party.

[RNdaSilva]

72. Oops, senior moment....

meant to say Al Gore not Bob Dole.

[Terri S]

75. It gets tiring, doesn't it?

Hang in there, madfloridian, it'll be over soon.

:hug:

[wiggs]

61. Clintons also want the popular votes to "count." nt

[Khaotic]

64. Not Fair!

Noooooooooooooo ... AAaaaagggghhheeeeeeeeeee!

===============================



Listen here Senator, either you play by the rules as you agreed to at the beginning of this contest or it's your keister!!!!

[juajen]

65. This is a typical democratic party fuckup.

obama will win the battle, but lose the war.

[Khaotic]

66. What fuckup ...

Hillary's campaign?

[progressoid]

101. Tee hee!

:thumbsup:

[Tellurian]

83. Obama won't win either..

But it will be the DNC that will take the hit, primarily, Howie Dean.

[Zachstar]

111. So who will you be voting for come november?

[muryan]

102. This is typical something

Its called punishment for breaking a rule. FL/MI had half their delegates stripped in the GOP for doing the same thing.

[ruby slippers]

70. G;ad someone still has some reasoning left in them.....do you

think it will hold, though?

[WeDidIt]

74. Clearly, the R&BC will ONLY seat the delegates

according to the memo.

I'd love to find a copy of it.

[Jersey Devil]

86. Sounds like a legal maneuver by the DNC to prevent an appeal

I am not all that familiar with DNC bylaws and rules, but I am betting that DNC committees are bound by the legal interpretation of DNC bylaws and rules as set forth by its legal counsel. So if this is in the form of a legal opinion by the DNC committee of lawyers that is charged with the interpretation of DNC rules and bylaws, it probably cannot be appealed or voted upon, much the same as a ruling by the party parliamentarian would be binding in an interpretation of Roberts Rules during a meeting without resort to appeal.

Therefore, the RBC would not be able to vote on anything that reinstates more than one half of the Fla and MI delegations. If this is the case, then Howard Dean has just pulled the rug out from under the Hillary campaign.

[malik flavors]

93. This could be the nail in the Clinton coffin.

[Zachstar]

110. Her chances ended days ago. This just removes her arguement for going to the convention

When Clinton makes her arguement they can point it RIGHT to the specifics forcing them to halve both states.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

96. Da Rules...

Delegate Selection Rules
11.A. No meetings, caucuses, conventions or primaries which constitute the first determining stage in the presidential nomination process (the date of the primary in primary states, and the date of the first tier caucus in caucus states) may be held prior to the first Tuesday in February or after the second Tuesday in June in the calendar year of the national convention. Provided, however, that the Iowa precinct caucuses may be held no earlier than 22 days before the first Tuesday in February; that the Nevada first-tier caucuses may be held no earlier than 17 days before the first Tuesday in February; that the New Hampshire primary may be held no earlier than 14 days before the first Tuesday in February; and that the South Carolina primary may be held no earlier than 7 days before the first Tuesday in February. In no instance may a state which scheduled delegate selection procedures on or between the first Tuesday in February and the second Tuesday in June 1984 move out of compliance with the provisions of this rule.

Da Consequences...

Challenges
20.C.1.a. Violation of timing: In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party provides or permits a meeting, caucus, convention or primary which constitutes the first determining stage in the presidential nominating process to be held prior to or after the dates for the state as provided in Rule 11 of these rules, or in the event a state holds such a meeting, caucus, convention or primary prior to or after such dates, the number of pledged delegates elected in each category allocated to the state pursuant to the Call for the National Convention shall be reduced by fifty (50%) percent, and the number of alternates shall also be reduced by fifty (50%) percent. In addition, none of the members of the Democratic National Committee and no other unpledged delegate allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A. from that state shall be permitted to vote as members of the state’s delegation. In determining the actual number of delegates or alternates by which the state’s delegation is to be reduced, any fraction below .5 shall be rounded down to the nearest whole number, and any fraction of .5 or greater shall be rounded up to the next nearest whole number.

NOTE: Iowa, New Hampshire and South Caroina moved their primaries/caucuses ahead of the schedule as shown in Section 11.A (Iowa should have been January 14, not January 3), but that was in response to Michigan moving its primary to January 15th. The Rules Committee allowed this action and that by New Hampshire and South Carolina to preserve their first-in-the-nation status. Now regardless of how you feel about the philosophy of allowing Iowa and New Hampshire to always go first, the clear intention of the rules is to preserve this particular "pecking order" and ALL states were warned to not violate that.

Regarding the cry of disenfranchisement, you don't have a right to vote in any manner that you see fit. If I don't show up at the polling place on the appointed day and time, I can't pitch a fit because my vote doesn't count. For the upcoming General Election, if you show up at the local Piggly Wiggly on October 30th and try to vote, your vote isn't going to count. And I can't imagine a set of circumstances where a reasonably sane and intelligent person would think that it should.

[ballsalicious]

103. da-anks

[PoliticalAmazon]

100. Good. The DNC needs to get aggressive with this. n/t

[Zachstar]

106. And there goes the ballgame!

The most she can hope for is half. And MI was already ruled a sham primary. So Obama will get delegates from the state.

Its over. At half Obama still has the majority regardless. Clinton can't catch up.

[cui bono]

121. Which means Hillary will whine all the way to the convention.

She upped her demands - even though she is losing to Obama - so that she can take it to the convention.

She will not be happy, ever, since she won't be the nominee. She's already got blood on her hands for the war in Iraq, she's going to have it running through her house if we lose the GE because of her selfish antics.