Has Hillary ever explained, why exactly she opposes a cluster bomb ban?

[Smith_3]

I'm just curious of that? :shrug:

[Bread and Circus]

1. Because the Likud Party runs her foreign policy priorities... :P

search Hillary at fpif.org

[Tesha]

5. Bingo. You beat me to it. (NT)

[grassfed]

29. bingo

[Poll_Blind]

32. Bingo! n/t

PB

[Stephanie]

34. Yup.

And at the time the vote came up they were lobbing them at Lebanon.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/24/isrlpa13798.htm

[DerekJ]

46. Exactly.

[Forkboy]

2. She may have, but I haven't heard it.

So K&R in hopes that someone knows.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

3. thank you. this one vote by the "feminist" did more to hurt women and children worldwide than any

other....except for voting for the IWR.

[aquarius dawning]

4. Maybe because she prefers to support our troops instead of hamstringing them?

Obama forbid we should allow our soldiers to have weapons that work.

[Tesha]

6. Cluster bombs are the sorts of munitions that ought to lead to War Crimes trials ex post facto. (NT)

[mcctatas]

7. Now I've seen it all....

to defend "the goddes of peace" a hillary supporter has sunk to defending cluster bombs??? :wtf:

"The United States dropped about 1,228 cluster bombs containing 248,056 bomblets between October 2001 and March 2002.1 Cluster bombs represented about 5 percent of the 26,000 U.S. bombs dropped during that time period. The United States primarily used two aerially delivered models, the CBU-87, a veteran of the Gulf War and the NATO bombing campaign in Yugoslavia, and the new, "wind corrected" CBU-103. A small number of Navy CBU-99s, CBU-100s, and JSOW-As were also used. In 232 cluster strikes, the United States hit targets across Afghanistan, including military bases, frontlines, villages where Taliban and al-Qaeda troops were hiding, and cave complexes. Reports that one bomb went astray and killed at least nine people near Herat outraged critics, who remembered the civilian casualties cluster bombs had caused in past wars. In response, the Pentagon defended cluster bombs as important area and antipersonnel weapons and said that it used them with care.

In a three-and-a-half week mission to Afghanistan in March 2002, Human Rights Watch found ample evidence that cluster bombs caused civilian harm. It confirmed that at least twenty-five civilians died and many more were injured during cluster strikes in or near populated areas. Holes in the walls and roofs of numerous homes were still visible. The casualty figures do not represent the total for the country because some deaths and injuries go unreported; furthermore, the Human Rights Watch team focused on determining potentially disturbing patterns and incidents in the bombing rather than identifying every civilian casualty.

Cluster bombs also left unexploded bomblets, or live duds, which continue to injure and kill innocent civilians long after the attacks. The precise dud, or initial failure, rate of cluster bombs used in Afghanistan, i.e., the percentage of bomblets that did not explode on impact, is not known. Even using a conservative estimate of 5 percent, however, the cluster bombs dropped by the United States likely left more than 12,400 explosive duds that threaten civilians and require clearance. From October 2001 to November 2002, at least 127 civilians as well as two deminers were killed or injured by cluster bomblets. Common post-strike victims in Afghanistan include shepherds grazing their flocks, farmers plowing their fields, and children gathering wood. Duds have also interfered with the economic recovery of the country. Clearance has proceeded with impressive speed, but deminers have had to overcome several obstacles, including shortages in information, equipment, funding, staff, and time."

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/us-afghanistan/Afghan1202-01.htm#P114_2876

cluster bomb victim:


Winning hearts and minds everywhere :grr:

[Alexander]

8. Yet more evidence that Shillbots are secretly bloodthirsty RWers in disguise.

[krispos42]

33. As if the situation would be any better if they'd used regular bombs instead

In order to get the same kind of area attack that a cluster bomb delivers the military would have to drop a string of a half-dozen or more 500-pound bombs. Maybe as many as a dozen. How is that better or more humane?

If the cluster bomblets arent's detoning, then the military contractor that makes them had better fix the damn fuzes and/or put some kind of wind-activated timer on them so you get as many detonating as possible.

[Tesha]

37. The difference is that conventional bombs don't leave unexploded bomblets laying around

looking like bright toys that a child would want to pick up.

A conventional bomb pretty much either explodes (usually)
or not (very unusually). And even if it doesn't explode,
it looks like, well, a bomb.

Cluster bombs are ethically reprehensible. And so are
their defenders.

Tesha

[krispos42]

38. Hence the need for better fusing

If our hand grenades or artillery rounds had a 5% failure rate, somebody would be being raked over the coals rignt now.


All of these reasons are excellent examples of why war is not something undertake lightly in the first damn place. And if we Repubs with an ounce of honor or common sense or a bit of spine to stand up to Bush's lust for the power of a "wartime preznit".

[Forkboy]

9. A new low.

[mcctatas]

10. And THAT is saying something...

They call Obama supporters a cult????? :wtf:

[aquarius dawning]

14. I think the "new low" honor goes to you for reinventing the image of the U.S. soldier/ "baby killer"

That was your point, right?

[iconicgnom]

20. You identify US soldiers with *cluster bombs*?!?!

As in "support the troops" = "support the use of cluster bombs" ?

That's totally obscene!

[Forkboy]

21. I think the point was to show the damage defenders of this shit are partly responsible for.

Your take is pure, desperate spin.

You're on a roll today...all downhill.

[cliffordu]

24. Uh, look, I don't know how to say this but your ignorance is showing....

Cluster bombs do not reflect the image of the US soldier.

Except in the eyes of the "collateral damage".

All wars have collateral damage, to create more with mines or cluster bombs is just gravy.


:sarcasm:

[mcctatas]

26. Oh please.....

I NEVER even insinuated that US Soldiers are baby-killers. The image I posted shows the carnage inflicted by usage of disgusting weaponry like cluster bombs....If it is difficult to look at, then maybe you should question your support of a candidate who supports their usage. Our soldiers are doing the best they can with the policies the government lays out for them, and since they are obligated to follow orders it is up to elected officials to make sure they have smart HUMANE policy to follow. It's people who immediately blame the military for policies and tactics that are not thier ideas but they are nonetheless required to follow that are despicable!

and by the way, insinuating that a person who opposes a candidate/POTUS's position is denegrating the troops is so Rovian my computer tilted to the right when I read your bullshit post...

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[roguevalley]

40. and you are the saddest, most sad person around. nice switch

the topic republican tactic to avoid the topic everyone is on. turn it to the soldiers and kill the conversation because you have NOTHING to say about her supporting cluster bombs. go up the fucking list and look at that dead child. that is what she supports and every mangled and dead child that dies now is HER FAULT. May God have pity on her soul because I have NONE.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

11. wow.....so much illogic in one post. inaccurate premise, inaccurate conclusion.

and cold political calculation, which actually is miscalculation.

[blogslut]

12. Cluster bombs resemble toys

Did you know that? They're like scattered, above-ground mines just waiting to be picked up. Were you aware of this? What is wrong with you?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

17. Full of crap much?

In Vietnam, people are still being killed as a result of cluster bombs and other objects left by the US and South Vietnamese military forces. Estimates range up to 300 people for every year.<20>
In post-war Kosovo unexploded cluster bomblets caused more civilian deaths than landmines.<21>
It is claimed that at least 18 civilians have been killed and 136 wounded in Lebanon by unexploded bomblets since the August 14, 2006 ceasefire in the 2006 Lebanon War.<22> In August 2006, the UN's Mine Action Coordination Center in Tyre, Lebanon, raised an alarm over the post-conflict impact on returning civilians of unexploded cluster bombs allegedly used by Israel against Hezbollah occupied village staging areas.<23> Israel immediately after the cease-fire gave the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) maps indicating the likely locations of unexploded ordnance, to aid the international attempt to clear these areas and avoid injury to the population. However, these maps only showed the general location of unexploded ordnance and were not useful for systematic clearance of areas contaminated by cluster munitions. Immediately after the ceasefire, Israel distributed warning notices to the residents in the areas of warfare, and recommended that they wait a few days before returning to the south until the UNIFIL forces cleared the area of unexploded ordnance. Clearance experts have estimated that it will take 12-18 months to remove the immediate threat from unexploded ordnance from southern Lebanon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_bomb

WATCH THIS VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpGMiAlVM6g

THIS IS A HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE

Nothing to do with not supporting our troops. What the fuck do you do when not posting here? Help the GOP with their bumper sticker logic?

[cliffordu]

23. Now there's a NEOCON talking point.

[mcctatas]

27. Yeah....

that one's not even subtle about it :eyes:

[roguevalley]

42. why would anyone defend a practice that makes our troops look

worse in the eyes of people that already hate us for being there? How many parents out there will KILL a soldier if they can get away with it because they had to use a SHOVEL to scoop up their dead child? And what sort of cankered soul would allow these things to exist in any kind of world? God, she has no soul.

[grassfed]

30. cluster bomb ban was for civilian areas

Cluster bombs and landmines are particularly terrifying weapons that wreak havoc on communities trying to recover from war. They are fatal impediments to reconstruction and rehabilitation of agricultural land; they destroy valuable livestock; they disable otherwise productive members of society; they maim or kill children trying to salvage them for scrap metal. Over 150 nations have signed the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty. In the autumn of 2006, there was a chance to take a step in the right direction: Senate Amendment No. 4882, an amendment to a Pentagon appropriations bill that would have banned the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas. Amendment No. 4882 was an easy one to vote against: Who'd want to risk accusation of "tying the hands of the Pentagon" during a never-ending, global War on Terror? As is so often the case, there was no political cost to doing the wrong thing. And there was no political reward for doing the right thing.
But Senator Obama did the right thing.
Senator Obama of Illinois voted IN FAVOR of the ban.
Senator Clinton of New York voted AGAINST the ban.
Analysts say Clinton did not want to risk appearing "soft on terror," as it would have harmed her electability. Amendment Rejected.

http://www.stopclustermunitions.org /

[eridani]

31. The mindless slaughter of civilians supports our troops how? n/t

[roguevalley]

39. and you don't think a troop can get hurt from them? Yes, cluster

bombing helps the troops. Every time a child goes and picks up the 'pretty toy', that really helps them.

[karynnj]

41. Can you explain why the vets such as Kerry, Harkin and others voted for the ban

In terms of supporting the troops Kerry is MUCH more believable and genuine than HRC.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. So then why'd she cut the funding?

:shrug:

[goldcanyonaz]

13. Biden and Dodd also opposed the ban.

I Will revisit this later, my new job job does not like me playing online..

[aquarius dawning]

15. They must be fucking baby killers too then.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

19. No one called

Clinton a baby killer. It is a HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION - Jeeeeeezzzzzeeeeee

You have "issues" - try reading this:
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/13/7655/
Published on Thursday, March 13, 2008 by CommonDreams.org
Cluster Bombs Are Not Good for Children, Hillary
(Ditto for Landmines and Sanctions)
by Paul Rockwell
The human soul is difficult to fathom. One person alone is capable of both compassion and cruelty.

In her autobiography, Living History, Senator Hillary Clinton portrays herself as an advocate for children, a defender of women and human rights. In fact, the Clintons have a long history of sacrificing the rights, even the lives of children, for political expediency. It is time to set the record straight.

On September 6, 2006, a Senate bill–a simple amendment to ban the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas–presented Senator Clinton with a timely opportunity to protect the lives of children throughout the world.

The cluster bomb is one of the most hated and heinous weapons in modern war, and its primary victims are children.

Senator Obama voted for the amendment to ban cluster bombs. Senator Clinton, however, voted with the Republicans to kill the humanitarian bill, an amendment in accord with the Geneva Conventions, which already prohibit the use of indiscriminate weapons in populated areas.

All senators are expected to inform themselves on the issues before they cast a vote. The evidence is overwhelming. It is hard to believe that Senator Clinton was unaware of the humanitarian crisis when she voted to continue the use of cluster bombs in cities and populated areas. A U.N. weapons commission called cluster bombs “weapons of indiscriminate effect.” For years the international press reported the horrific consequences of cluster bombs on civilians. On April 10, 2003, for example, Asia Times described the carnage in Baghdad hospitals: “The absolute majority of patients are women and children, victims of shrapnel, and most of all, fragments of cluster bombs.” Reporting from a hospital in Hillah, The Mirror, a British newspaper, became graphic: “Shrapnel peppered their bodies. Blackened the skin. Smashed heads. Tore limbs. A doctor reports that ‘all the injuries you see were caused by cluster bombs. The majority of the victims were children who died because they were outside.’”

Even after wars subside, after treaties are signed, after belligerents return home, cluster bombs wreak havoc on civilian life. Up to 20 percent of the bomblets fail to detonate on the first round, only to become landmines that later explode on playgrounds and farmlands. Children are drawn to cluster bomb canisters, the deadly duds that look like beer cans or toys before they explode.

[iconicgnom]

22. This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation
Aquarius! Aquarius!

[cliffordu]

25. Won't be long now.....maybe a week...then the grace period.....

It'll be nice. On to the GE.

[smiley_glad_hands]

28. You are way over the top. eom

[2rth2pwr]

43. Every mangled and dead child that dies now is THEIR FAULT.

[Forkboy]

47. Partly, yes. Just as it's partly Hillary's fault.

[karynnj]

44. They, like HRC, voted for it because of Israel

which had just used them in Lebanon. Kerry, Harkin and Reed - all vets - voted for the ban - and they were right.

[anonymous171]

16. It was a political move. She wanted to look "strong on defense" during the GE

Fortunately it looks like she will never get that far.

[AllentownJake]

18. She like children

mistaking unexploded ordinance for toys :shrug:

[Cha]

35. I wonder..but, thanks for bringing this up, Smith.

This should really be front page.

Cluster Bombs Are Not Good for Children, Hillary
(Ditto for Landmines and Sanctions)

by Paul Rockwell
The human soul is difficult to fathom. One person alone is capable of both compassion and cruelty.

In her autobiography, Living History, Senator Hillary Clinton portrays herself as an advocate for children, a defender of women and human rights. In fact, the Clintons have a long history of sacrificing the rights, even the lives of children, for political expediency. It is time to set the record straight.

On September 6, 2006, a Senate bill–a simple amendment to ban the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas–presented Senator Clinton with a timely opportunity to protect the lives of children throughout the world.

The cluster bomb is one of the most hated and heinous weapons in modern war, and its primary victims are children.

Senator Obama voted for the amendment to ban cluster bombs. Senator Clinton, however, voted with the Republicans to kill the humanitarian bill, an amendment in accord with the Geneva Conventions, which already prohibit the use of indiscriminate weapons in populated areas.

<read more>
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/13/7655/