The problem, Skinner, is you assumed Hillary Clinton would have the integrity to drop out

[mudesi]

Poll question: The problem, Skinner, is you assumed Hillary Clinton would have the integrity to drop out

Should DU call it when Obama gets 2025 delegates, even if Hillary Clinton does not drop out?

[NightWatcher]

1. I'm not about to tell Skinner how to run things

he's doing just fine on his own

[silverweb]

6. Ditto.

:thumbsup:

[Radio_Lady]

65. Tritto... um, what's after "ditto"?

Management rules!

[silverweb]

69. I don't know...

...but I guess "tritto" works as well as anything! :D

Admin has done a fantastic job!

[Joe the Revelator]

13. You're allowed to have an opinion.

[JuniperLea]

33. And DU has rules

One of which is not to call out or complain about anyone who owns, runs, or helps run this site (admins & mods). So, in this case, no. An opinion is not allowed. Nor should it be.

[mudesi]

38. Can you people get a grip?

It's pinned at the top of the page. "When a candidate drops out we'll have a presumptive nominee".

I'm just saying that maybe we ought not to use that criteria, considering one candidate is incapable of admitting defeat.

You can vote no, if you want. I did include that option.

[JuniperLea]

41. Dude... the grip is on the other foot, FCOL!

Obama has moved on and is now going toe to toe with McCain... it's the right thing to do. His supporters should get a clue.

[Zomby Woof]

56. You have this pathological obsession w/Hillary

And you're telling US to get a grip?

The rolling eyes icon seems woefully inadequate in this case.


Incidentally, you'd have more credibility as an "Obama supporter" if you actually posted pro-Obama threads once in a awhile, rather than obsessive spam about Senator Clinton every day.

[mudesi]

58. There's a simple explanation for that

I'm a Kucinich supporter, and never really have been an Obama supporter. I have, however, always been anti Clinton, and have grown to loathe her over the course of the past 3 months.

But it is a fact that Hillary Clinton's behavior is making it much more difficult for Obama to beat McCain in the general election, and I will not relent simply because it may hurt the feelings of a few deluded die hards. Too much is at stake and four years of McCain may just send America off the cliff.

I freely admit that I've had my bad days here, as we all have.

That being said, I have posted the occasional pro Obama thread. Honest.

[Joe the Revelator]

51. Thats actually not the rule at all

Forum Administration: Respect the moderators and administrators, and respect their decisions. You can help make their job easier by clicking the "Alert" link on any post that might need moderator attention. Please understand that moderating errors and inconsistencies are inevitable on a large website like this. If you have a question about DU policies, or if you have a concern about an action a moderator has taken, please contact an admin privately.


Seems to me that there is no rule against complaining, and certainly no rule against having an opinion.

[JuniperLea]

59. Oh yes, but it is... you didn't look far enough...

The Moderators and Administrators

Treat the moderators and administrators with respect.

Do not post messages attacking the moderators or administrators.

Do not publicly accuse the moderators or administrators of bias.

Do not send rude messages to the moderators or administrators, by email, by private message, by use of the "Alert" function, or by any other means.

Do not publicly post correspondence you receive from moderators and administrators, and do not share it with other members of this message board.

If you have any questions about the rules of this message board, please contact the website administrators by sending an email. The administrators of this website are Skinner, EarlG, and Elad.

Questions about Democratic Underground policies should be emailed to the administrators. Discussion topics pertaining to specific enforcement actions by the moderators are categorically forbidden. Discussion topics relating to Democratic Underground policies, procedures, enforcement, etc., are sometimes permitted if they are respectful and not disruptive to the administration of the website. We reserve the right to lock or delete any such topics for any reason.

[Joe the Revelator]

63. and you apparently didn't read your own post

Discussion topics relating to Democratic Underground policies, procedures, enforcement, etc., are sometimes permitted if they are respectful and not disruptive to the administration of the website

[JuniperLea]

87. Do not post messages attacking the moderators or administrators.

Do not post messages attacking the moderators or administrators.


Jesus... thick as a fucking brick.

[mudesi]

88. You call this an attack?

:rofl:

[Mooney]

27. Me neither.

Moderating this insane asylum has got to be the most thankless task on earth. I don't know if Skinner is paid for his/her efforts, but if there is a salary involved, it's not enough.

[emilyg]

28. Absolutely.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. Exactly. n/t

[PoliticalAmazon]

91. ITA. It would be presumptious. n/t

[FlyingSquirrel]

2. Good luck with this

:popcorn:

[MichiganVote]

5. Get some more popcorn and move over will ya'.

:smoke:

[L0oniX]

15. Share? ...here have one of these....

[JuniperLea]

35. We'll need more, methinks...

Hey, Buddy! Bring that bag over here!

[cbayer]

3. Pretty presumptuous to state that you know what Skinner assumed.

There are other websites that have closed their doors to any dissenting opinion. Why do you post on one that has chosen not to do that?

[Lost-in-FL]

4. I vote NO

cause it is over already.

[Joe the Revelator]

7. This shouldn't even be a question, of course we should.

We have to focus on McCain, the sooner the better. Being held hostage because the loser doesn't want to admit she lost is an absurd proposition.

[JuniperLea]

36. I've been saying this for weeks!

Good to see the theme picking up!

[Jersey Devil]

8. No one has to drop out for there to be a "presumptive nominee"

Once Obama goes past the collective number of pledged and super delegates to have an absolute majority he will be the presumptive nominee.

If Hillary wants to appeal the RBC decision re MI & FLA to the Credentials Committee and, if it files a Minority Report, to the Convention, during all that time Obama would still be the "presumptive nominee".

I can't speak for Skinner but I am confident that he will do what is best for the party and this discussion board.

[LeftyMom]

9. This was over weeks ago. I see no point in prolonging the agony.

Qualifier: I voted for Kucinich. I haven't picked a side in the Obama/Clinton wars, as I'm not impressed with either on matters of policy.

[Jersey Devil]

12. It was probably effectively over after Wisconsin

with the slim possibility that Obama could have fallen on his face over some scandal, which, of course, he did not.

[sandnsea]

10. He should at least stop the attacks

The latest swiftboating ought to be enough of a clue to what's going on around here.

[L0oniX]

11. If this goes on until the convention I am going to take the summer off from GD:P.

I am sick of seeing the asinine posts from these purposely delusional Hillary supporters ...and you know who they are.

[SoFlaJet]

26. then read them only L0oniX but don't respond

especially in the morning when they all march over here with the day's talking points-just reply in threads made by the functionally sane-do NOT bump up their threads, bump the good poster's threads up-it's better than let it sink-just IGNORE them-by noon they start vanishing

[Bucky]

14. I'm for Obama, but I think we still owe it to Clinton to let her make that call.

She's like the Jeremiah Wright to half of this party. Yes, she induces the occasional cringe in us. But she's been attacked in the past because of who she was. She's been attacked because her family stepped forward to fight for the people.

Give her time--till the end of June, say--before shutting her down. I know it's hopeless, but she's earned the right to come to that conclusion all on her own.

[Joe the Revelator]

20. She lost that right by dragging it on this line. Time is not on the party's side. Fuck her feelings.

[BellaLuna]

16. You've gotten so full of yourself that you call out the owner of the site

and imply he is wrong just because YOU are obsessed with hating her?


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Major Hogwash]

72. That's what Randolph Scott would have done!!

*Takes off cowboy hat*

"Randolph Scott" from celestial choir.

[suston96]

17. It ain't over till it's over.......

The primary season ends when all the primaries are done - when all the votes are counted - when ALL the delegates are certified and seated - and when the convention calls the roll and counts the delegates preferences.

[Joe the Revelator]

21. You're out of your mind if you think this is historically logical or good for the party

[suston96]

30. Historically logical?

Does the name Thomas Eagleton mean anything to you? "1000%" Thomas Eagleton?

[Joe the Revelator]

32. What point are you trying to make by invoking Eagleton?

[suston96]

47. What point? That's easy: It ain't over till it's over. And even then.....

...it may not be over.

Matter of fact, even when you win the election, it may not be over.

Nixon-Agnew were re-elected with one of the greatest landslides in history, but less than two years later they had both resigned the vice presidency and the presidency in disgrace.

Get the point?

[Joe the Revelator]

50. You can't go through life thinking like that. Its over.

And you failed to touch on if you thought not being able to admit she lost is hurting the party.

[suston96]

55. Hurt the party? You got to be kidding....Trashing the votes of 2.3 million Democrats ....

....is what will bleed the party dry. You are looking in the wrong places for where the party is hurting.

[Joe the Revelator]

57. I guess this is where you cease trying to discuss this rationally

Compromises have been offered. Hillary has decided to further "trash the votes" for her own self interest.

[suston96]

67. Rationalize 2.3 million votes away....Just don't count them. Yeah, very rational. nt

[Joe the Revelator]

68. Its like you didn't even read my post....

[suston96]

94. I read your post. And you still cannot rationalize 2.3 million fellow Democrats away....

....no matter how much you hate the opposing candidate.

I see the rationale as follows: in order to end the hate, you have to get rid of the haters or the hatees.

[Aloha Spirit]

18. No, just leave it up. The 2012 primary season starts soon anyway.

[WeDidIt]

80. Especially if FL and MI aren't punished

then states can start whenever the fuck they please so 2012 primary season will start on Novemebr 5, 2008.

[Hippo_Tron]

95. President Obama will be running for re-election in 2012, probably without serious primary opposition

I don't think we'll have a GD Primaries forum to placate the supporters of Lyndon LaRouche and Lee Mercer Jr.

[Edgewater_Joe]

19. Call It NOW - Obama Has WON Already

Everyone but the delusional and destructive Hillbots know it, so admit it and kick their arses to get them to wake up and/or just start giving money to McSameAsBush if that's what they want to do rather than admit that Hillary lost fair and square.

[cbc5g]

22. Skinner said "Once we have a presumptive nominee you have one week to get it out of your system."

And then its over.

[cbc5g]

23. Uhh wait, don't we have a presumptive nominee???

:shrug:

[Zynx]

24. We will in a little bit. He doesn't quite have it yet, but barring something silly like

Hillary getting 100% of the vote in the remaining three contests and Obama's numbers collapsing, it's a done deal.

[intaglio]

25. You vs Skinner

I think you know which end of the finger you are - Good lick, sorry, luck - :+

[Swamp Rat]

71. Aww!!

:loveya:

[intaglio]

84. Thanks!!!!

I got bragging rights! I got an "Awwww" from Swamp Rat!

[yourguide]

29. As much as I want to say yes, the answer is no.

The truth of the matter is it's truly not over until we have an official nominee...she has made it pretty clear she is going to try and bring this to the convention.

The truth is, anything can happen, anything...I know what SHOULD happen but no one has an inside track on what WILL happen.

[JuniperLea]

31. Well said

And I'd add... all the whining about it only makes the situation worse.

[Joe the Revelator]

34. But why does Hillary's ego get to dictate what DU does?

[JuniperLea]

39. We have free will here...

Someone posting under your account? Your posts in this thread seem to go back and forth on the issue quite a bit!

[Joe the Revelator]

52. How am I going back and forth?

[yourguide]

53. Sadly for all of us, technically her AND her ego are still in the race

as unlikely as it may seem. Mark my words, she is going to try and go to the convention. The only way she's not is if Obama hits the magic number prior to that.

[Jazzgirl]

37. Skinner owns this site.

Not up to me (or anybody else for that matter) to tell him how to run it.

[greguganus]

44. ...but, but I just donated 5 bucks! Don't I get a say?

:rofl:

[papapi]

40. Food Fight!

[masshole]

42. I'd have done it weeks ago

Not only as a show of support for Obama but as important, a way to begin ridding DU of the fucking republicans pretending to be Hillary supporters that have infested this place.

[Ichingcarpenter]

43. Skinner said he wants it to go on forever because he likes to torture

the moderators.

[greguganus]

45. I think I've seen him post in a sadist forum under the name Walt Starr. n/t

[greguganus]

46. Lynyrd VS Skinner. nice ring to it though. n/t

[shaniqua6392]

49. We don't tell Skinner how to run DU.

If someone does not care for the way things are run on DU, then they are free to leave.

[stevietheman]

60. That sure is "democratic". {sigh} n/t

n/t

[shaniqua6392]

83. Every society has to have rules which are enforced. n/t

[stevietheman]

86. Democracy is paramount. n/t

n/t

[The Magistrate]

54. Several Small Points, Mr. Skynyrd

Predicated on the courteous assumption that behind this lies a desire to reduce the heat and hard feelings now visible in the forum....

It not necessary for there to be any declaration by the proprietors for members to act on their own to reduce to heat and hard feelings in the forum. It is within every member's own power to hold his or her temper and to refrain from calling other members of the forum liars, trolls, idiots, bigots, and similar epithets. Similarly, it is within every member's own power to refrain, on his or her own, from indulging in extremes of vitriol against either of the two candidates currently still pressing campaigns for the Party's Presidential nomination. If a member absolutely cannot stand the sight of disagreement with his or her views on this matter, there are the Ignore and Hide Threads functions available to provide a shield from the disagreeable sight.

[Joe the Revelator]

61. I think the over reaching question is, how long are we going to allow attacks on the

presumptive/probable/likely/barring a "catastrophe" nominee?

[The Magistrate]

62. In Regard To That, Sir

At this point, the vitriol directed against Sen. Clinton and her supporters is probably as harmful to the prospects of Sen. Obama in the fall as anything directed at Sen. Obama and his supporters. The nominee is going to need the enthusiastic support of all who voted for Sen. Clinton in the primaries, and all who did more than that in support of her, if we are to have a victory in November.

Nor, unhappily, will the actual recognition of Sen. Obama as the Party's nominee put an end to attacks on him here. We have both been here a long time, Sir, and know what to expect. Only the direction of the attacks will change. By September, if not by August, people, a number of them likely to have been supporters of Sen. Obama in the primary season, will be denouncing him roundly as a pawn of the D.L.C., excoriating him for talk of bipartisanship and other concessions to the central portion of the national political spectrum, and crying that he has betrayed them, and the promise of Hope and Change he ran on to secure the nomination. Moderators will try and sort the constructive elements of this from the non-constructive ones, and no one will be particularly happy with where the line is drawn.

[Joe the Revelator]

64. I agree the attacks will change..

but I rather have those arguments, then to see the items like the unfounded attacks on his grandfather (for example) that were posted here today. If I remember correctly, DU pretty much put a no tolerance policy in effect for those types of attacks.

As for the first part of your reply, I'm sorry, but I cannot and will not buy into the idea that responding to talking points and attacks by Sen. Clinton and her supporters is the problem. The majority of the board (based on the poll in this thread) has a right to feel frustrated at the hostage situation that they find themselves in.

[The Magistrate]

75. My First Point, Sir, Extends A Bit Beyond Debate On The Board

Both camps are attacking in manners that will make reconciliation more difficult than it needs to be, and reconciliation is necessary once the general campaign commences. People can only control their own behavior, not that of others, so the cry that 'when he stops, I'll stop!' essentially states a resolve to press on unchanged.

"War is, first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the hope that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off."

[Radio_Lady]

70. Thanks to you and other mods here, I know the DU is a better place to be.

You use the grandeur of language to express your points of view, as well as those of the DU administrators. Your words are so eloquent that I am simply awestruck. You are gracious, even when you are taking care of mundane matters (such as locking a thread).

I know nothing about you -- no gender, age, location, or other information are listed. Yet I can feel your compassion and understanding. I feel more drawn to you through your posts -- than anyone else I can think of at this moment.

Thank you so much for posting, always.

Peace, love and happiness,

Radio Lady

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

89. Certainly.

It's also within everybody's power to quit being a lily-livered fence sitter and take a stand on an issue instead of trying to be everything for everybody.

This is Democratic Underground. Not Democratic Mild Farina.

[Yael]

66. Problem is that isn't the official number -- MI and FL have to be settled.

No worries - next week at this time, it will all be over.

:)

[mudesi]

73. No it won't. That's my point.

Well, OK, in the real world it will be over. But here in GDP it will continue if she doesn't drop out, unless the admins decide that Obama is the presumptive nominee when he gets the delegates.

It's sad that it has come to this. If she wasn't being so destructive, I'd almost be embarrassed for Hillary Clinton right now.

[Yael]

77. Skinner has already said that with the requisite delegate count

we have a presumptive nominee.

"Presumptive" as it is official at the Convention.

If HRC wants to stomp her little feet and hold her breath for 3 months after he hits 2170 (or whatever the number ends up being), then I will join you in calling for it to be called.

As of next Tuesday, all primaries are over and the RBC will have handed down their decision.

We can wait another week, no?

Edit to add -- you do have a point though. Skinner didn't mention the fact that a (former) challenger to the presumptive nominee may not drop out. The Klass of the Klintons is something that has to be taken into account. Again -- I am with you about calling for it if she doesn't drop even after he cleans her clock in the next 6 days.

[Major Hogwash]

78. But, what if she decides to contest it clear until the convention?

Which is what her surrogates have been saying for 2 weeks now.

Doesn't Skinner have the right to say after the last Democratic primary that "enough is enough" and let the one with the most delegates be the presumptive nominee?

Regardless if Hillary drops out of the race or not?

Because, if not, we will waste our time arguing about it all summer long.
At the detriment of the entire Democratic party.

Regardless of what Hillary says about the campaign after next Tuesday, the decision to declare Obama as the presumptive nominee is not all that far-fetched, reaching into outer space, Twilight Zone of a decision as some here may suggest.

[Yael]

79. I agree and did post in response to LS below (just above yours)

Skinner didn't address the possibility that a candidate would be politically tone deaf enough to not accept that they lost.

Once Obama has the requisite delegates (including the RBC on MI and FL), if she doesn't drop out, I will join the calls for this to be called an "Obama Nominee" zone with full rules enforced.

If Senator Tonya wants to take this to the Convention, they she should be treated as anyone else running against the Democratic Nominee from the votes counted time through November's election. Reference Cindy Sheehan's indy run against Nancy Pelosi.

:thumbsup:

[NashVegas]

74. Sometimes, I Really Miss "Ask the Admins"

[Danger Mouse]

76. probably, but it's the decision of the admins.

[QC]

81. Do you like Obama at all, or

do you have some sort of bizarre obsession with Sen. Clinton?

It has gone well beyond being merely tiresome and is now well into the realm of the pathological. Seriously, you need to get a grip.

[David Zephyr]

82. I'm hoping that soon the DU will join the other progressive blogs and get behind Obama.

Skinner will know when. I trust him. A lot.

[TexasObserver]

85. I think it should be, but it's not my call. DU owners have the exclusive right to make the call.

It doesn't affect me much, anyway. I routinely use IGNORE to make the Clintonistas disappear, or the HIDE THREAD to make annoying threads go away. I quit talking to them entirely, except for the few that I encounter for the first time almost daily. When the fight is over and the Hillary fanatics have to clean it up or clear out, I'll start reading what they have to say again, but I'm not reading anyone who thinks this is their place to trash Obama. I'll not waste any of my time reading that trash.

[Major Hogwash]

98. Yes, but how will they make that kind of call? Like the guy in the Ricola commerical?

What kind of horn will they use?

[grantcart]

90. Why don't we wait until Wednesday and go apeshit then

[harun]

93. Don't worry.... we will !

[frogcycle]

92. "call it?"

whatever the hell that means....


unless one is the official judge of something, authorized to name the winner, then "calling it" like the news media do is just a form of cheerleading

some her have already "called it" - some won't until their dying day, it would seem. In neither case does it make a nickels worth of difference to anything.

[rodeodance]

96. silly biased poll. you call that evidence? ha ha

[mudesi]

97. Biased?

It's a yes or no question.

:eyes: