The Florida and Michigan delegates must be seated!

[Onlooker]

I think it's in the interest of the Obama campaign to seat Florida and Michigan because those will be important states in the GE. The fact is, those delegations will make no difference to how this race is going to play out. Clinton, even in her best case, will still be about 100 delegates behind Obama, and she will continue to run a lousy, alienating, overbudgeted campaign. By seating those delegations, it will make it easier for Clinton to save face and bow out and help avoid a contentious convention.

The Democrats should certainly not punish the pledged delegates, which would in effect punish those who voted in the primaries, and they cannot punish the Superdelegates, many of whom control the Party apparatus that will be critical to winning in the GE. The only punishment I think would work would be to suspend the handful of Superdelegates who were most responsible for the early primaries in those states.

The bottom line is to count on the amazing skills of the Obama campaign to convert whatever delegate lead he has into his nomination and to set up a situation that is favorable to Democrats in the GE. Seating Florida and Michigan carries negligible risk and many advantages to the Obama campaign.

[Jersey Devil]

1. It's not up to the Obama campaign

It is up to the DNC to seat or not to seat the delegates. According to the legal memo sent out by the DNC the MOST they can do is seat them at half strength.

[billybob537]

2. She wont bow out

they'll have to drag her kicking and screeming from the convention floor to her new rubber room.
I can only dream!:toast: :party: :puke: :silly:

[still_one]

6. It all depends. The Clinton's were already a controversial element in the party

One thing I am sure of, she will not have another chance to run as president, she has pretty much ran a divisive campaign which has burned a lot of bridges

[WeDidIt]

3. Obama has no control over how it goes

and the rules demand a minimum penalty of 50% of the delegation.

[still_one]

4. What they should do is rerun the primaries, at least in Michigan

because Obama wasn't even on the ballot

The problem is that the Democratic politicians in those states violated the rules

They knew the consequences, and still held early primaries

The rules clearly call for a penalty of at least 50% reduction of delegate count

The argument for following the rules cannot be ignored

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

7. Rules are the hobgobblins of small minds.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

5. It's in nobody's interest to seat MI delegates

As you say, it won't change the outcome. But seating them will send a signal that DNC has no power, so rules don't matter.

MI primary was not to be counted. All but one serious contender dropped off the ballot. We voters were told (often) that the votes won't matter. So be it. Don't count them.

If they are seated, the consequence will be (even more) chaos in 2012.

[Jen-MI]

10. I don't know where you live...

but I was told that eventually my vote would count. Don't watch tv or read the paper much, huh?? I voted and so did about 600,000 other Democrats in our state. Compare that to the 2000 primary where approximately 200,000 people voted in Michigan. I am not sure why you didn't get the message! I would also like to add that I live in a rural county that is primarily Republican, so I am having a hard time with your statement that Democrats were told not to vote!

again...where do you live??

[TahitiNut]

24. Manure.

We were told that some amorphous group of people called 'delegates' would PROBABLY be seated eventually upon a request by the "presumptive nominee." Translation: The People of Michigan would have NO SAY in selecting that nominee.

There is no such thing as a 'delegation' from Michigan. The ONLY way a legitimate delegation can exist is by the fair and just expression of the will of the designated electorate. The 'election' was voided and nullified by a Grand Voter Suppression program. If it were a union election, it'd be voided with 1/10th of the suppression.

Only 1/4th, at most, of the designated electorate actually voted as would have been the case if the election had been campaigned, had the full slate of candidates, and had been deemed valid at the time it was held. It wasn't.

RTFT: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6159157

[cliffordu]

27. I smell graveyard earth.....like a ghoul freshly risen...

[newmajority]

31. And yet, at the same time for some reason, I also smell....... PIZZA!

a troll he is, and brief will his visit be......

[cliffordu]

33. Man, I likes the Pizza....

[seabeyond]

8. i cant get over saying fuck you to the voters that didnt vote cause they KNEW it wasnt legitimate

regardless of playing nice or whatever... i cannot get my mind around states purposely and knowingly breaking rules knowing hte result will be illigimate primary where campaigning isnt allowed and candidates names arent on ballots to in anyway be legitimatized. my whole sense of fairness and balanced is skewed on that. then to say gotta count the voters vote knowingly denying the voter that sat at home cause the KNEW it wouldnt count just really gets me as "just wrong". total hypocrisy

[Jen-MI]

11. BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT TOLD TO STAY HOME!

[seabeyond]

12. but they did know that the primary was illigimate and the vote was not going to count

so a person has this info, will make the decision of voting or not with the info

for you to try to justify refusing their vote to count with "they were not told to stay home", is stupid and purposely ignoring the point. a person has info vote not count and basis a decision on that, for the info change, is not the fault of the person that stayed home. i wonder about the people that can live such a pretense for the sake of a win. it lacks character

[Jen-MI]

15. What?

I had to read your post a couple of times and it still doesn't make sense to me.

My point: Voters were told that their vote would eventually count. Approximately 600,000 voters came out to vote, compared to 200,000 in the last primary. This does not support the claim that voters knew that their vote would not count, so many stayed home!

[seabeyond]

16. they were not told that their votes would eventually count. and who has heard of election

where there is no campaigning and the elected officials say.... hey all, eventually your votes will count

they were told the votes wouldnt count. the people that fucked it up said come out and vote, make it big, then we can MAKE dnc eventually count the votes

even though they went against the rules knowingly to hold votes hostage to get early primary

they try a second time to hold votes hostage to MAKE dnc count them

tell the truth

and this is who you stand with and back. a bunch of people willing to use voters vote as hostage to get their way. amazing

and STILL you ignore the voter, pretend the voter doesnt exist, who says bullshit to such a shoddy excuse of what a primary race is in order to get some votes counted.

[Onlooker]

13. Oh come on

This who issue wasn't about helping out one candidate or another, it was about a technicality. Namely, local party activists battled the DNC to get an early primary and all the attention and excitement that brings. They were trying to build up their local party. We should not get on our high horse about this sort of thing. We should do what's in the interest of the Democratic Party and winning the GE. To win the GE, Democrats have no choice but to cozy up to far worse groups that Florida and Michigan Democrats. We should certainly treat them as well as Obama is treating fundamentalists, homophobes, right-wing war veterans, and so on.

Also, using your argument, one could say that superdelegates should vote the way they think is best for the Democratic Party without regard to primary results. After all, there is no rule whatsoever binding them to popular vote or pledged delegates in their home states.

[seabeyond]

14. here it is again, breaking rules, ignoring repercussions and justifying ignoring the

vote of those that did not go out and vote in an illegitimate primary. even after owning the fact the reasons the state people broke the rules in bringing in early voting, ..... because of "their" battle with dnc and attention and excitement.... still

you shrug all common sense and rightness and say let it count, while getting a dig at obama

no

there is nothing in your post that validates any argument to what i have said. you might as well not even have responded to my post.

[Onlooker]

18. I wasn't putting in a dig against Obama

I've supported him all along because the Republians proved its the campaign, not the candidate that counts. The fact that Obama is also a great candidate is just icing on the cake. But, I am very impressed with your loyalty to the bosses in the Democratic Party who make the rules. If you have that same blind loyalty to your employer, then s/he is very lucky to have you.

[seabeyond]

20. lots of assumption.

i have always been a rule breaker. why i have been a rule breaker successfully is because i clearly know the repercussions and if i do break the rule it is that i am willing to face the repercussions. i am also honest enough to own when i am breaking the rules instead of whining and stating that i should be special and not have to suffer repercussion

i am also self employed and make my own rules as i go

because i see people wanting to break the rules thinking the primaries would be over well before they hit their state, and willing to give up a legitimate primary in order to have a say in the election is to be at least honest with what happened. and now that they see the race still goes on they want the vote to now count

it is not so much following rule that has me bothered. it is balanced scale of just that has it tilting too far on one side for my comfort.

florida did ot have campaign. it was not a fair counting of votes
mi did not have all candidates name on ballots, not a fair counting of votes

voters did not go out and vote. they maDE A decision on information given that the vote wouldnt count. they didnt vote. and now saying it counts. that is not fair

it is not rules that must be adhered to. it is fairness. fairness was not in the primaries. they were not legitimate. they did not give all candidates opporunity. and did not give all voters the info to go out and vote.

that is what bothers me

owning, being responsible for decisions.

[Onlooker]

22. Primaries are not fair

I'm not trying to defend Clinton here, but the fact is that primaries really measure very little. Who votes? In caucuses it's mostly the young, activists, and people who have a lot of time on their hands. In primary elections, who votes? In some states it's Democrats, in other states it's anyone at all. So, I'm not really sure what objective measure the primary system has. The primary system is really fucked up, but it's all we have. My big concern is putting Obama in the best possible position to win Florida and Michigan, since those are swing states. There is nothing fair about the primary system, but that's okay because it's apparently given us a really great candidate. In this regard I see the only argument for not seating Florida and Michigan is if by seating them it would enable Clinton to win. I think that's incredibly unlikely.

[seabeyond]

25. since primary isnt fair, what are voters in flor and mi bitchin about?

we will just tell them per you..... primaries arent fair

[Onlooker]

26. I think we're in the rarefied air of the politically obsessed

Most people don't pay nearly as much attention to politics than those of us who inhabit DU. I've thought for awhile that the key to winning elections is to appeal to the uninterested voter, the one who votes as a matter of routine but rarely reads about politics or watches political news. You know, years ago, I was involved in the Ted Kennedy for President campaign. After the vote in Albany, NY, I visited a polling station and this old Irish guy says to me, "I'll tell you one thing: Kennedy got the first 17 votes," and proceeds to explain how he had family members vote for Kennedy under other names before the polls opened. I was too young to understand the travesty of what he said, but at the same time it taught me that democracy isn't particularly fair or honest, and that's the system we have to work with. As Churchill said, "democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

[seabeyond]

29. mmm.... like

sittin in texas and seeing, hearing, knowing all the texans that followed limbaughs instruction without a bet of conscience of doing wrong. merely voting dem the one and only time to effect the outcome of the democratic primary. i thought it just wrong, dishonest, ... but they really did not have a thought to the wrong in it.

[seabeyond]

28. wrong place

[Stop Cornyn]

9. Seat 50% super delegates from FL and MI. Seat FL pledged delegates 50% by vote, and 50% according

to the allocation of pledged delegates from the other 48 states. Seat MI pledged delegates 50% by Levin's proposed ratio, 50% according to the allocation of pledged delegates from the other 48 states.

This has the advantage of (1) seating full pledged delegations from FL and MI and nearly full total delegations from FL and MI, (2) punishing FL and MI by costing them 50% of super delegates (i.e., diminishing the effect of those party insider types who had more responsibility for the rule violation) and by diminishing their pledged delegates' say in the ultimate vote without affecting the total strength of the FL or MI pledged delegate coalitions, and (3) minimizing the effect of the rules violation while also minimizing the effect of the punishment for the rules violation.

[iamthebandfanman]

17. i think i should be seated

even tho im not a delegate nor have i ever asked to be one.
but hey, since we are changing rules... we can bend it for me right?

[Kierkegaard]

32. Brilliant.

[madfloridian]

19. Hillary's propaganda machine....did its job well.

She is still not the winner, but she has spread hate and anger.

[seabeyond]

21. she has spread hate and anger.... above and beyond all she has done, this pisses me off

and disgusts me more than any of it. to create a hate amongst the dems against obama for this whole thing when he wasnt a part of the decision making...... not responsible. it is outrageous this woman that calls herself a dem set out to destroy any ability obama will have for florida..... disgusting. filthy. lying. politics.

so fuckin stupid

[TahitiNut]

23. Horse shit. There are no such things as 'delegates' from Michigan.

As a Michigan voter, I WON'T speak about Florida. I speak as ONE Michigan voter. (At least that's better than the arrogant asses that have only exploitation as an objective.)

RTFT: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6159157

It's NOT up to the DLC.
It's NOT up to the Clinton campaign.
It's NOT up to the Obama campaign.
It's NOT up to the state Democratic party.
The ONLY people who can conceivably select 'delegates' are the PEOPLE in the electorate.

At one point, it MIGHT have been up to the designated electorate in the state of Michigan (i.e. the VOTERS). But the 'election' was voided by the voter suppression and nullification. There is absolutely NO recognizable expression of the will of the electorate. None! Zip. Nada.

There are no Democratic 'delegates' in Michigan. Period. Every use of that term is a lie - whether on DU or in the corporate media.

[L0oniX]

30. ...and while your at it let's get a popular vote count from the caucus states.

pffft