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This post won't make me any friends, but I have to say it. I would have supported Hillary if....

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Firespirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:54 PM
Original message
This post won't make me any friends, but I have to say it. I would have supported Hillary if....
she had not demonstrated her eagerness to knife people in the back at the first opportunity.

I don't have a real bone to pick with her policies -- at least, a bone that I can't also pick with Obama's. Other than her stance on war, her positions are not that different from his, and I don't give a shit about the war.

Yes, you read that correctly; I don't care about Iraq or Iran or any other country in the Middle East. I'd prefer to get out of there because it's draining money from us, but otherwise, they can shoot each other into nonexistence and I won't blink an eye. I'm not a "global human rights" voter; I'm far more of an isolationist.

There is a group of bloggers who think that the Senate vote of Authorization to Use Military Force in Iraq in 2002 should be a litmus test for any president, vice president, or Cabinet secretary, but I am not in that group. I think the AUMF votes were perfectly justifiable in 2002, for political reasons, and had I been a Senator, I would have voted for it myself, because I would have been representing a southern state and my seat would have been more important to me than a quixotic protest vote against a president who does not even recognize the law. Bush defied the AUMF, you know. He was supposed to wait for the UN inspectors to finish.

So someone's war vote and/or hawkishness was always a non-issue to me. I vote on the economy and the Constitution, period. War is only important for how it intersects with these issues. Hillary's views on these areas were, and are, every bit as tolerable to me as Obama's.

I'm a womanist. I think that it is offensive and insulting to classify the anger of the oppressed group as somehow equal to the bigotry of the oppressor group. One is based on a belief in the fundamental inferiority of a group of people; the other is based on actual actions taken by people. I would like to see a strong woman become President and have it be one in the eye for all the sexist men out there.

I find the Obama campaign's optimism and emphasis on "hope and change" to be funny, and I think it's nothing but a slogan. I'm a cynic and glass-half-empty type. Actually, more like glass-3/4-empty. I don't believe in "hope and change." I believe in chessboard politics -- outmaneuvering the other side.

I like dirty campaigns. I was a campaign operative at age 15, and in recent years I've been a staffer for a major campaign. The thing at 15 was a very personal campaign at a local level, and I enjoyed it. It was an adrenaline thing. Or maybe I'm just a sadist. I don't think personal history is ever off the table, and I have a fantasy, so to speak, of being involved in a race and having the opportunity to slime the opponent into oblivion. Clinton supporters, she has tried to do that. I wouldn't even mind that if I thought that she was a person who, however nasty she could be to opponents, could be trusted by her allies.

Other than my age (I'm under 30), I have the perfect profile to be a Clinton supporter; yet I've been opposed to her from the start. And that is how she lost me, backstabbing past allies of herself and her husband, for no good reason, when they needed support.

Hillary Clinton, in 2006, had the opportunity to stand in support of her colleague, John Kerry, when the right-wing slime machine was seizing on his misstatement as being somehow more important than their abysmal, criminal record. She, as perhaps the single safest incumbent that year, could have stood with her party chairman, Howard Dean. Or with the challenging Democratic candidates, Bob Casey and Sherrod Brown. Or others. She could have said, in effect, "This right-wing-generated media storm is a load of crap. The Senator from Massachusetts left a word out of a joke. He did not insult anyone except George W. Bush. You know it and I know it. You are doing this for one purpose, to distract attention from your alliance with K Street, your covering up for a child predator, and your atrocious records of not doing anything to help this country." But no, she saw an opportunity to bury him, and said "his remarks were inappropriate," giving credence to the right-wing lie about what he had said. Siding with their interpretation of his words rather than his own assertion. Inappropriate indeed.

I am being completely honest when I say that this is the reason why I did not support her. That's it. Character. If your longtime allies can't trust you not to stab them in the back at an opportune time, who can trust you?

Dante thought that treachery was the worst evil that man could commit.

I can tolerate a great deal on the campaign trail. I like a good, old-fashioned personal history mudfest. I can even justify switching sides, or being pragmatic, if necessity demands it. But I draw the line at the needless backstabbing of allies and friends, just because they may, possibly, one day pose a threat to your ambition.

I can only wonder how many other people Clinton lost because of this. I've deliberately chosen expressions to cast myself in a bad light, but this was for a reason. If she lost a person like me, then there can be little doubt that she lost others with far more idealism.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. I was torn between her and Obama for quite awhile - but she started sounding like Bush
with slogans instead of facts - I want honest discourse if its possible for a change.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. I was solidly on the fence until Super Tuesday.
It was some "Clinton stuff" - either her tactics or some questionable Clinton history that made me decide in favor of Obama.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. I remember before it even started hearing that she would be the
nominee in the press. I remember feeling depression for a while until others stepped up because it was my first indication that this election would be a cow, an interminable aching pile. I hate it when it goes on fifty years and people already have someone lined up for your rubber stamp. I am not unhappy that this fell through because maybe it will show the fucking press how to shut up.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow - you're being real honest about yourself. I guess I can see the joy in attacking scumbags like
Bush and his posse, but my view of Clintons' betrayals predate yours.

They actively undermined Gore and Kerry and the Dem party from 2000-2006. Siding with Bush publicly as they did and especially throughout Bill's summer2004 book tour where he repeatedly defended Bush from the very criticisms Kerry and other Dems were leveling against Bush at the time, made it quite clear that Clintons were WITH Bush on his war agenda and would defend it publicly rather than support the Dem nominee and his position against Bush's decisions.

Clintons ARE the Bushes of the Dem party - and THAT is why they do not deserve any support from ANY Democrat who cares about open government. And there is a HUGE difference between Clintons and Obama on open government and THAT is why Kerry sides with Obama.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. I don't think the Clintons were for Bush in '04 as much as they were against Kerry winning
because if he had Hillary may have had to wait until 2012 and then had to run against Edwards.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Except Bill's legacy was contained in the same books he closed for BushInc in the 90s and
they knew that Kerry had always wanted those books opened to the American people.

Kerry in office with access to reveal the truth would have cemented Bill's legacy as the clean up man for BushInc throughout the 90s, laying the groundwork for BushInc and their powerful cronies to control every branch of government by 2001.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. I cannot fathom the War being a non-issue in your eyes.
The death toll on both sides makes me wonder WTF are you thinking?

It is "THE ISSUE" .

Isolate this.

Your indifference to the suffering is hard to take.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. Thanks for the honesty although...
Edited on Thu May-29-08 07:15 PM by politicasista
I want the war to end.
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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. you scare me...
:scared:
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. I don't like Clinton
because she was rude to me and to friends of mine here in Arkansas, when it would have been just as easy to be polite. Now I have a problem with folks who act that way.

That being said, if she wins the nomination, I'll vote for her, because the alternative is much worse. But I know several Arkansans who won't vote for her if she's on the ballot.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. "they can shoot each other into nonexistence and I won't blink an eye"
I didn't read anything after that.


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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
10. Well I give a damn. I have two nephews in Iraq and I want them home along with all the others.
I also weep for the brave men and women we've lost and their relatives and friends.

Thank you for your concern.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. I guess I was sort of
taken back by your comment that you "don't give a shit about the war."

That is so strange to me that I can only say that this war is killing millions of Iraqi's and over 4,000 Americans.

Many thousands of soldiers come back permanently scarred - mentally and physically.

The price you are paying for the gas in your car? War driven escalation of overall costs.

Our national debt? In the trillions and climbing - Our children and great, great grandchildren will pay the tab.

Sorry...

I give a shit about the war.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. For what it's worth
there's a whole lot of people in this country with a lot more to personally worry about than the war.

You can thank the lack of a draft that a great many Americans have no personal stake in how our military is used.

But anyway you don't know anything about the poster than what s/he has revealed in the post; there may be quite a lot of other things going on in someone's life that means that whether people in some foreign country kill each other or not, is really not relevant.

As for soldiers and their families - I have two nephews there now. But the cold hard fact is that BOTH of them signed up for it when the facts were freely available - AFTER the invasion. I don't know what percent of the military remains that are stop-lossed from commitments made prior to the Iraq invasion, but I don't believe it is a very high number.

All I am trying to say is, there can be very valid reasons for a person to not care much about the war. I try not to judge, but meanwhile I will speak up for the need for universal national service every chance I get.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. This is not about
it being a "personal thing"

It is a HUMAN THING. To not give a shit about this NEOCON piece of shit war is pretty much a deal breaker when it comes to being a progressive or a liberal Democrat.

If you support the draft you are way in the minority - And apparently you do. I have heard good arguments for the draft but I am not willing to send my children into a place to die because of a pack of goddamned lies.

I hope that your nephews, who are serving in the military, do not come home as totally fucked up as MANY service people I have personally spoken with and met. Of course there is also the overwhelming odds they may not come home at all.

I know quite a few parents who have lost their sons to this sham of a war. I am certain they could tell you exactly why it is something that we, as a collective conscience, must take a stand against the occupation of Iraq.
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demokatgurrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
16. I LOVE this post! I was for Clinton, after I was for Edwards
and am now for Obama. it took me a long time to see what you've seen, and I'm a lot older than you!
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
17. I Know She Brought Wes Clark In In 2004 to Fuck Dean
And still forgave that when it was time to step in the voting booth.

She's not my first choice. She's not even my second choice.

I see very little difference at all between Clinton and Obama, politically.

So she didn't cover for Kerry in 2006? Barack Obama sold out his pastor of 20 years for expediency's sake.

Very little difference, at all.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
18. You lost me with the war
In case you hadn't noticed, war is about DEATH. And I don't have much patience for those who go along with killing people needlessly.

Hillary has had years and numerous opportunities to apologize for her war vote. Kerry apologized, Edwards apologized, many of the Democratic senators and some reps have apologized. Her failure to do so lost her my vote.
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