I don't think Obama is in any way responsible for Father Phleger's comments, but I'd like to know...

[Writer]

more about them.

I'd like to know why I should take his words seriously as a white American.

Thank you.

[Writer]

1. Wow. No one?

[ampad]

9. Begging for responses?

Please people let this sink.

[Mezzo]

76. but YOU kicked it by responding at all

[Writer]

78. Indeed. Hi, Mezzo. How are you doing today?

Nice weather 'n all.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

2. Do you take everything everyone says seriously?

Who is asking you to take his words seriously?

[Writer]

10. Because I saw an entire room of people stand and applaud what he said.

And I would like to achieve a greater understanding of what Father Phleger is saying, given that I'm white and therefore entitled?

[cliffordu]

13. Go to his fucking church.

[emilyg]

90. No. Thank you.

I don't go to church for hate.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

15. Take a few years off and devote your life to living and working on the South side of

Chicago helping the poor.

[Writer]

18. That's a given. I GET that.

What I'm trying to understand is how I'm supposed to conduct my life in a socially responsible way under the guise of Father Phleger's words. What am I supposed to do to give restitution for benefiting from white privilege?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

19. No. But you're supposed to be aware of it.

[Writer]

23. Well... I'm quite aware of it...

although it seemed that Father Phleger was implying more.

[cliffordu]

37. Why don't you go ask him? We cannot know

the answer to your question. If it's really a question. If it isn't a real question, then what would it be??

A little gasoline for the fire??

[Teaser]

3. Because Father Phlegmer is SERIOUS BUSINESS.

.

[featherman]

4. Fox and Drudge beat the drum, the MSM marches to the beat

What's new?

[Occam Bandage]

5. "I'd like to know why I should take his words seriously as a white American."

Why you concerned about that?

[Writer]

14. Because I saw an entire church stand and applaud those words.

[Occam Bandage]

22. So? Lots of churches applaud lots of things. Nobody says you have to take them seriously.

[Writer]

26. Wait now - an entire church was applauding in agreement with what Phleger was saying.

Like, "Hooray! Good show, Father! I agree with what you're saying about white privilege. And yes, Clinton is crying over losing because she believes that she's white, and therefore entitled to the presidency."

[Occam Bandage]

30. Yep. That's true. So what?

Is it shocking to you that many poor African-Americans are resentful of white privilege?

[Writer]

32. No. But what are we to do about that?

And how are we to achieve unity with the reality of that resentment?

Those were some pretty heavy words, imho.

[Occam Bandage]

34. That's a completely different question, now isn't it?

You started off wanting to know "why (you) should take his words seriously as a white American." Now you're taking his words seriously, and asking to know how you can bring about full social equality and achieve racial reconciliation.

Completely different questions, with completely different answers. The answer to the first is, "Who cares?" The answer to the second has been fiercely debated for centuries.

[Writer]

38. Pardon me while I allow our conversation to evolve a little.

It seems like a set-up in a way. I'm white. I've benefited from racism. So... okay. I certainly am not a practicing racist. Should I no longer pursue positions of power as a means of achieving racial reconciliation?

[Occam Bandage]

41. Do what you like. I don't see why you're obsessing over the opinion of one pastor.

There are many people who have declared many things about race in America. Why are you taking one particularly seriously?

[Writer]

45. Because it wasn't as if the church rejected or booed the pastor.

They agreed with it. As in, "Yes, I do believe that Clinton is complaining because she thinks she's entitled to the position as a white person."

This seems to be a belief held by many in that particular AA community. So what are whites supposed to do as a means of reconciliation in such a situation? The answer the priest implies is to step aside and no longer pursue positions of power, because doing so is a sign of white entitlement.

[Occam Bandage]

54. Correct. One congregation of African-Americans is resentful of white privilege. Many are.

Similarly, many Hispanics are resentful of the disproportionate attention paid to African-American issues (and media vilification of immigrants), despite Hispanics' greater population. Many poor rural whites believe that the poverty of blacks is unfairly given greater attention than their own poverty, and claim with justification that their birth has handicapped them as much as a poor urban black man's has. Many blacks believe that feminism is stealing 'their' affirmative-action benefits, and many feminists believe the black community is indifferent to sexism. Every group believes their own issues are paramount, and that those who have it 'better' than them--or who are getting anything they want--are deliberately responsible for their plight.

So, why are you singling out the perspective of this one small community? What makes you particularly concerned about their opinion?

[Writer]

58. Because there obviously are people out there who believe this idea.

I'm wondering if there are more communities? And if it's a more widespread opinion than this one community, then what should the white community do to respond? Because this form of resentment is a blockade to unity and to everything that having an AA president, for instance, is supposed to accomplish.

[Occam Bandage]

89. So you believe that you should take this pastor seriously, because he apparently

speaks for a large community of people, and you believe that reconciliation cannot be achieved by ignoring the resentment expressed in that church? Sounds like you've got the answer to your OP at any rate.

As for what to do to bring about racial harmony in America? When you figure that one out, write a book and rake in the billions.

[Writer]

93. Maybe I will.

I need to pay off my student loans.

[scheming daemons]

96. If an SNL cast member did the same skit on a stage in NY, it would've gotten the same applause

It was a comedy routine. All that was missing was the red brick wall behind Pfleger.

[Writer]

98. That's some rather acerbic wit, if I say so myself.

I dunno. Saying someone has a sense of white entitlement is hysterical! (sarcasm)

[scheming daemons]

99. The best humor is that which has a morsel of truth to it.....

Hillary *IS* acting like she is "entitled".

[Writer]

100. But that's not quite what he said.

He said that she felt WHITE entitlement. WHITE. WHITE PEOPLE. LIKE PASTY.

[scheming daemons]

101. Maybe she does feel that... maybe not.. I dunno.... but Obama denounced the comments...

...so what is the story here?

[Writer]

102. Everything else that's been posted in this thread. That's what.

[scheming daemons]

103. I mean... what does this have to do with Obama or GD: P?

That black people cheer when a white man makes jokes about white racism should not be shocking or news to you.

[Writer]

104. Wait... whoa. He was joking about white racism?

I don't think so. He said that Hillary Clinton was crying because Barack Obama was in the way of her white-entitled claim to the Oval Office.

Say what you want about Hillary Clinton, but now she thinks she's entitled because she's white? No way.

[azmouse]

6. I don't think there was anything serious about what this priest said.

It was just ill-timed and he should have known to keep his mouth shut after all the commotion over Rev Wright.
He did nothing to help Obama.

[slinkerwink]

7. Obama or Pfleger?

[Writer]

12. Pfleger.

This has nothing to do with Obama.

[blogslut]

17. Exactly

This has nothing to do with Obama. He can no more control the sermons of a priest than can you or I.

This hoopla is a last, desperate attempt by a desperate candidate to remain relevant.

[SeaLyons]

28. What the hell does Hillary have to do with

the words that idiot spewed???

[blogslut]

39. Which idiot?

I can't keep up. There are so many in your world.

[SeaLyons]

43. sorry, but the idiot is in "your" world.

[cliffordu]

47. Nice way to bring everyone together

hater.

[Writer]

56. Dudes. Chill for a bit.

[Bake]

86. Pot, meet Kettle.

You're one of the biggest haters on this forum.

Bake

[cliffordu]

87. BZZZZT Wrong Number. I just snark the racist pastorbators and

the professional shit stirrers.

[blogslut]

57. Uh huh

I may be an agnostic but as someone that was involved in the peace movement, I honor the sacrifices made by members of the Catholic Church. For you to discount such a person's entire life devotion, for political gain, is despicable and idiotic. If you were capable, you would be ashamed.

[SeaLyons]

73. Despicable and Idiotic.....

that well describes the video. I guess Obama is despicable and idiotic for criticizing it (for political gain).

[cliffordu]

77. Be sure to get the extra cheeze on that fauxrage, it's extra tasty!!

[Writer]

81. I'm going to take your cheese and your bologna and make a goddamned sandwich if you all don't find..

some common ground!

Otherwise, kiss my cheez whiz. :mad: <-- now THAT's faux outrage.

[cliffordu]

82. Bare it and we'll share it.

[Writer]

92. You want me to bare my cheez whiz?

You sick puppy!

[cliffordu]

105. You brought it up, you sick puppy....

:rofl:

[Swamp Rat]

20. "This has nothing to do with Obama." - Which is why it does not belong in GD-P

[cliffordu]

49. It sure didn't take any time for the hate squad

to come out in force did it??

[Writer]

51. Hold on, dude, are you saying that I'm being hateful?

[cliffordu]

60. Almost. I was talking about some of the other responses, primarily.

As for your OP - I'd suggest you attend an activist church like the one Wright preaches in.

There might be more of these "radical" places than the MSM knows about. Ask around.

There might even be some (gasp) white activist churches.....(I'm not talking about the rod parsley right wing hate churches...)

You could learn everything you need to know.

I figure it might just be outside your comfort zone, though, so you'd have to man up for the first couple of times.

[Writer]

64. Actually I have breasts, so it would be tough for me to "man up."

:P But I digress...

Actually I would have no issue with experiencing the talk within churches of all stripes, because churches have been the central cultural centers since the settling of America. They're the beacons of communities - and here is at least one community who holds this opinion. How widespread is it, I wonder? And if so, what is to be done about it in order to achieve unity? CAN anything be done? I don't know.

It's definitely a topic for exploration - one I'm very curious about.

[cliffordu]

71. Well....

My wife says "I gotta man up and get over there..." when she has to ride her bicycle in the rain to a job and she doesn't want to.

In my house 'man up' is a mockery of the intent behind 'man up'.

In a few minutes I have to man up and do the cat boxes. If I do it in a John Wayne voice, the joke is complete....

But I digress.

I'm not sure we can reach unity -

Unity == "integrity: an undivided or unbroken completeness or totality with nothing wanting;"

According to some dictionary I saw online.

But I think we can achieve parity.

According to Wickepedia: "Parity is a concept of equality of status or functional equivalence."


I'm serious about the activist churches, though. I used to go to one. Great people.

[Writer]

74. It's sort of like how I used to tell my dad that a working a job is good for my soul...

because it puts hair on my chest.

:P

I'll hum a tune for you while you clean the cat boxes... "IIIII went out walking with a bible and a gun..."

[Overseas]

8. All you need to know is-- Harold Ickes will bash Obama by any means necessary.

Desperation Row here. The ugly Ickes machine will stop at nothing to bash Obama, because they desperately know Senator Clinton has lost. The Clinton team may even be trying to damage Obama's prospects in the general election because they want 2012. The Superdelegates need to stop Ickes' desperate moves. Enough is enough. Right wing nut jobs smearing our candidates is one thing. Desperate bashing by other Democrats hurts the party as a whole. The CLintons have lost a lot of respect among life long Democrats.

[cliffordu]

11. Well....He has a church in the worst ghetto in chicago IIRC.

He's a white priest, a Jesuit, I think.

As a white American I'd say he does more than 99.5% of white Americans to make things better, you know, except the ones watching FOX.

:sarcasm:

[anigbrowl]

16. Here is why (at least if your family goes back to the civil war)

Being directly responsible for a situation is one thing; few white Americans alive today bear any direct responsibility for institutionalized discrimination.

Being the beneficiary confers its own kind of responsibility however, and most white Americans are beneficiaries of discrimination, seeing as how their ancestors were allowed to claim and/or inherit property for much longer than black people have been able to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_acres_and_a_mule

This does give rise to sometimes strange kinds of entitlement. I have a republican acquaintance who absolutely hates 'entitlement junkies' and all that sort of thing, but who cheats on he and his wife's tax return so she can continue to receive medicare for some obscure but not life-altering condition that needs expensive medication (if the IRS knew they were married then their means tested benefits would expire). The money saved this way allows them to feed and stable a horse...in Los Angeles. If that isn't an entitlement mindset I don't know what is.

If you can't take this seriously then perhaps you are in the wrong party.

[Writer]

21. I understand that.

My ancestors (for the most part, because there are quite a few of them) were turn of the century immigrants in New Orleans - Germans and Sicilians.

Now, given that, how am I supposed to make up for the privileged position that I was born into?

[anigbrowl]

29. By being considerate, I suggest

I'm not advising that you should sell your possessions and give half your money to the NAACP or anything. On the other hand, if you understand this (also, see edit if you're interested), why do you find it hard to take it seriously when someone points it out in a black church?

I get the impression that what a lot of people are not used to is the style of delivery. You'd laugh if it was on the daily show or something but it seems sacreligious to deploy humor in church. Having grown up Catholic I can understand this. Indeed, there's a theological split in Christianity over the question of whether Jesus ever laughed and therefore whether laughter is proper to man. Traditionalist types tend to feel it's not.

Personally I'm all for it, but then I'm into Zen Buddhism so propriety isn't high on my scale of Important Things.

[Writer]

35. It's not the laughter that's of issue...

I grew up Catholic, too (and WISH I were practicing Zen Buddhism now, actually) but your first paragraph addressed my question more squarely I think.

So institutionalized racism existed. Whites benefited. Slavery and Jim Crow were overthrown. Now what are whites supposed to do? The priest said something about Clinton being upset because she was white, and therefore entitled to the presidency. So... am I to read from that that any white person who pursues power must hold back, because that pursuit by itself means the person thinks that he or she is entitled to the position of power?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

36. Well reveling in the fact that some white people have problems voting for a black man probably

isn't the best way to go.

[Writer]

42. I guarantee that most white people don't do that, and that wasn't my question.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

53. Your question was "what can we do". My answer is that *Not* telling the AA community that

even though this African American has won more pledged delegates he shouldn't be the nominee because he can't win "hardworking americans', white americans'" votes (wink wink) would be a great place to start.

Like it or not, this whole "Obama is weak with white voters" parade on the news has not sat well with many Americans.

[Writer]

59. Look, can we - just this once - transcend the tit-for-tat campaign arguments?

This isn't about Obama v. Clinton... this is about resentment for white privilege v. what the heck we can do to achieve unity.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

63. Then maybe you should ask the AA fourm, GD, or the Racial Equality forum.

[Writer]

65. Mebbe.

Maybe it's a topic that we need to address after this campaign is over - in ALL forums.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

67. Surely.

[anigbrowl]

83. OK, in a non-campaign context

I suggest a greater focus on economic justice. The burden of that has historically fallen on black people more than white BUT there are also white individuals and groups who have suffered under it. If you're white and grow up in a trailer park you're getting socioeconomically fucked just as surely as a black kid who grows up in the projects.

So I suggest you consider arguments against privilege vs. white privilege particularly. It so happens that most of the privilege has historically flowed towards white people and been reinforced by law until the recent past, but really it comes down to an issue of economic justice. Consider that underprivileged white people (appalachian mountain men, trailer park dwellers, whoever) have been just as badly affected by this as black people.

Take two people at the bottom of the economic ladder, one black and one white. The white person may in past times have comforted himself with the thought 'well at least I'm white, that makes me inherently better in some fashion'. And those who have done well from economic privilege were happy to encourage this line of thinking because it was a useful distraction that stopped the poor white guy from saying 'wait a fucking minute, how come I get paid shit just like the black guy over there? I may be getting 2 more cents per hour than he is, but it's still slave wages, I just get a cherry on top of mine...'. In other words, racism can be used to keep poor white people in their place just as effectively as it can black people.

Pointing out that things like the estate tax are not actually a burden on hard-working Americans, but a (weak) safeguard against inherited privilege is useful. There's a whole host of economic justice issues that are worth addressing...and I say that as someone who is basically in favor of capitalism and free trade. I'm, in favor of socialized medicine and education, but no way am I a 'socialist', nor do I think that the solution to all economic problems is to soak the rich or abolish markets...that's childish in the extreme.

So if you want to encourage greater unity at times like this, I suggest you can acknowledge the truth in what people like Pfleger say (which you already have), and extend (rather than dispute) his points to say that this is not just an issue for the black community, but for a broader class of people who have been disenfranchised regardless of skin color.

[Writer]

94. Cool. Good write up.

My husband and I were joking not too long ago that we should sentence all wealthy whites with at least five hours a week of hard community-building time. Go into poor neighborhoods and invest their time and talent. :P

[anigbrowl]

79. No, I am not saying to hold back.

But don't whine about it when you're losing fair and square. Comments like 'if we had the Republican system, I'd have won by now' (Clinton) or 'Obama is only where he is because he's black' (Ferraro) strike me as whiny, to put it bluntly.

[Writer]

80. Wait a minute... what does this have to do with Phleger's comments?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

40. You should stop bitching about sexism then

I mean, most men who are alive today aren't directly descended from those who were depriving your female ancestors of the right to vote or own property. And it's not like modern men enjoy any kind of privileges for being male. Nope. Nosirree. Not at all. Just like you don't get any benefit whatsoever from being a white person in the U.S. :sarcasm:

[Writer]

48. Your dripping sarcasm aside...

is the answer then a heavier pursuit of affirmative action? That is, until we achieve parity in pay and in representation of AA's and women in Congress and elsewhere?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

55. That's a complex subject I'm not interested in getting into in this thread.

I was responding to that tired old canard about how your ancestors being poor immigrants means you don't have to acknowledge the considerable advantages you have as a white person in this country.

[Writer]

62. I didn't say that, thank you. I was wondering what whites are supposed to do in order to achieve

unity.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

66. You found it necessary to point out that your ancestors were turn of the century immigrants.

If you want to promote unity, you could start by not doing that anymore.

[Writer]

69. Why? What's it to you if I do that?

Especially given that someone, in discussion, made a point about whether or not my ancestors preceded the civil war, so I clarified that point.

Okay, okay. Gee. Let me just say this: I don't see color. People tell me that my ancestors were turn of the century immigrants and I believe them. And some of them were Sicilian, capiche?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

72. Yeah, I know, Stephen Colbert doesn't see color either.

Since he's your avatar, I do hope that you realize he's being satirical when he says that.

[Writer]

75. No, no I don't realize that.

I think the man is quite earnest about playing his character. It's serious comedy.

[Max_powers94]

24. I am an AA. And I say this is a non-story

[thewiseguy]

25. Thanks for openning another thread about this very important subject.

:eyes:

[Writer]

27. (chuckles) No problem.

[Annces]

31. He was part of a controversy regarding a basketball team

at St. Sabina many years ago. It may shed some light on him.


http://www.jessejacksonjr.org/query/creadpr.cgi?id=3751

""BLACK SCHOOL CAN'T JOIN SPORTS LEAGUE
By Cathleen Falsani, Chicago Sun-Times
Contributing: Lucio Guerrero
Thursday, May 31, 2001

The pastor of a predominantly African-American parish on Chicago's South Side accused a Roman Catholic intramural athletic league of racism Wednesday after the black parish grammar school was denied membership in the predominantly white league.""

[Writer]

It sounds like he was fighting for equal rights. n/t

[2rth2pwr]

33. Many young people hear these things. Their parents take them to hear this and they

see that this type of thinking is accepted, even in church.

[Higher Standard]

84. Hopefully, the parents talk to them about what they're hearing

In the same way that parents should be talking to kids about what they see on TV and videogames, I'd hope they talk about some of the things they're hearing in church with them. If not, then the parents share a measure of responsibility for the values that their kids pick up from the venue.

[2rth2pwr]

85. That's weird, most people go to church to reinforce values.

Why do you think the Obama's exposed their children to this church?

[Higher Standard]

88. So you're saying you don't think parents should discuss sermons with their children?

Yes, churches in general will help reinforce values, but sermons tend to have more specifics, some more individual beliefs of the person delivering the sermon, and, should the parents hear something disturbing in them, I'd hope they would discuss those with their children. Now, on your question, clearly you're assuming (a) Obama's children heard seriously disturbing things while they were in the pews, and (b) if so, that Obama and his wife never talked with them about what they heard. And, ultimately, it does suggest that you're buying into a generalization of what people in that church hear week in and week out based on snippets that have appeared on news programs and Youtube.

[2rth2pwr]

91. Do you think these snippets are out of the ordinary and not welcome at the church?

[scheming daemons]

97. What Pfleger said is not much different that what we hear on the Daily Show or Colbert every night..

If one of the cast of those shows said it...it would have had the same applause.


It was a comedy routine.

[rucky]

44. As a white American...

his words were not for us. I don't think he or the congration cares how you take them, nor it is really any of our business what's discussed in other people's churches.

[Writer]

52. I'm curious - are these services televised?

Because the footage never looks incognito. The production quality is rather good.

[hokies4ever]

61. Probably part of a religious outreach program for disabled people

who are unable to travel to the church. The media uses programs like these (which have good intentions) to try to politicize their services. Utterly despicable in intent.

[rucky]

95. As a writer, writer...

you have an intended audience when you write - even though you have no control over who reads what you publish.

[dsomuah]

46. You realize Father Phleger is a white american too right?

[Writer]

50. Yes, but what difference does that make?

[Warren DeMontague]

68. Anybody whose career centers around a giant invisible man in the sky who is supposedly

deeply emotionally invested in making sure the hairless apes of planet Earth are married before they fuck each other..

...I pretty much don't take seriously by default.

[Writer]

70. Hold on, wait a minute!

Hold on, wait a minute!
Let's put a little Papa in it!
Boom shicka boom!

:P