If Reid, Pelosi, Dean and Emanual....

[mac2]

decide who the primary winner is after the last primary vote in California I'm outta this party. The convention is the place for that. This way they negate the power and voices of the delegates (thus the people).

Why bother...they decide since 2000 who the leader should be. Our votes stolen each time. The same ole crap from DC is what I see.

[Occam Bandage]

1. ...what? What does CA have to do with this? How is demanding SDs endorse "negating their power?"

[SemiCharmedQuark]

5. I was wondering about the "California" comment myself...

[Kittycat]

11. And it should be noted that CA now supports Obama more than Clinton.

Since polls seem crucial to Hillary's survival - that seems to be another one she's losing.

[mohc]

10. I thought CA was on Supertuesday

I had no idea they were even voting again!!!

[mac2]

16. If not California then the last state to have a primary. OK?

[mohc]

42. Dean, Pelosi, etc

Are not going to decide for the SDs who they should endorse, just that they should in fact make an endorsement. They will still be free to change that endorsement anytime they want.

My question to you is: Do you want the Superdelegates making the decision or not?

If no, then the pledged delegates are the only thing to go by, and Obama has already clinched the nomination.

If yes, then let the Superdelegates decide what they want to do. They are free to choose whom they want to, the candidates are free to lobby for their support, and party leaders are free to lobby for them to make a decision (and yes even advocate for their preferred candidate as well).

[mac2]

67. Why don't you all meet behind closed doors and decide

Obama is the winner. You don't need any opponent to do that.

[hfojvt]

73. Obama has already won in the open - in primaries and caucuses

He won a majority of the delegates which are distributed proportionally. Why act like it's being done by fiat? You know it's not.

[msallied]

83. What the fuck do you think they do at a brokered convention?!

Nevermind. I'm expecting too much from someone who didn't even know that California voted MONTHS ago.

[mohc]

84. What are you talking about?

The question is fairly simple. The convention will have both pledged and unpledged delegates in attendance. If you do not like these "backroom" Superdelegates deciding things, then we are left with pledged delegates which have already been decided in favor of Obama. If you want Superdelegates to have their say, then they must be allowed to have their say in the way they see fit. It seems to me, and I could be mistaken, that what you are in fact advocating is that the Superdelegates must participate but must only support your particular point of view. At this point in the nomination, the only way a "backroom" deal can be made is somehow giving the nomination to Clinton. There is no reason for a backroom deal for Obama seeing as he has already won.

[Why Syzygy]

102. You don't know that California voted three months ago?

And you are here to convince us of what? How the rules should be played? You have to get in the game, first rule.

[WeDidIt]

2. Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya!

Because the primaries are over. Obama won. Get over it or get the fuck out of the way.

[mac2]

20. You might find yourself in a very small group in the future.

[msallied]

37. Projection. You're already in a very small group. And thankfully so.

[mac2]

45. That's not what the other half or more of the party believes.

[WeDidIt]

55. FALLACY

You are proclaiming to know what everybody who supports Clinton will do.

You are a fool if you think 48% of the Democratic Party puts personality above party.

[msallied]

56. Thank you. This is ridiculous.

[msallied]

58. So half the Party will not vote Democrat in November?

Your group just got even tinier. Like, Heaven's Gate tiny.

[mac2]

68. You lost a lot of us if they decide before the convention delegates

do their job.

[msallied]

It's almost ALWAYS decided before the convention, fool.

The voting of the delegates is usually more often than not a formality. It's only in the instance of someone who can't fucking admit that they lost and who has some hope that delegates will just decide otu of a clear blue sky to switch their votes that the convention is viewed as the "deciding" event.

[mac2]

95. Not the DNC conventions I watched.

The "final winner of our party to run against the other parties" was decided by the delegate vote at the convention. At least in Democratic primary elections in this country before this year.

[WeDidIt]

80. Whenever it's taken to the convention, THE PARTY DOING SO LOSES!

1988 Jackson goes to the conventiion, Dukakis loses
1984 Hart goes to the convention, Mondale loses.
1980 Kennedy takes it to the convention, Carter loses
1976 GOP - Reagan takes it to the convention, Ford loses
1972 TOTAL WEIRDNESS at the Dem convention with new rules and non-porportional delegate allocation. Strange sessions starting in the morning and running through to the next morning. McGovern loses
1968 McCarthy takes it to Chicago. Riots in the streets. Humphrey loses.
1964 GOP - Nelson Rockefeller takes it to the convention against Goldwater. Goldwater loses.

So what you advocate is LOSING!!!

[mac2]

96. What you want is to decide without delegates (voters)

[SemiCharmedQuark]

3. WTF are you talking about?

[Waya]

4. I may be on Primary overload......

..but I'm thinking the last Primaries are Montana and South Dakota......California is overrrrrrrrr..........

[futureliveshere]

6. This post makes no sense whatsoever!!!

[gateley]

7. Yeah, I don't quite get what you're saying -- California? nt

[mac2]

17. See post #16

[Kittycat]

8. What in the hell are you talking about? The primaries will be over, the people will have spoken.

And by delegate count - Obama is already the winner of pledged delegates. He's now just sealing it with the Super Delegates.

[mac2]

18. It's not over until the delegates vote at the convention.

[Kittycat]

25. you just keep thinking that, along with HRC

and she'll end up with no votes at the convention for destroying the party.

[mac2]

48. I'M NOT A HILLARY SUPPORTER.

Nor a Democrat any longer. I'm looking for a third party since mine has abandoned our Constitution, borders, and economy.

[WeDidIt]

57. Then what the hell are you doing on DEMOCRATic Underground?

[mac2]

70. Only Obama supporter who want it over for him are Democrats?

[WeDidIt]

71. Is English your first language?

[mac2]

89. Supporters OK!

I'm not writing a novel nor do I intend to justify my typing to you.

[NightWatcher]

9. they are encouraging the SD's to announce after ALL the primaries have been held

what does it matter if they decide between next wednesday and August? No more primaries will be held.

[newmajority]

12. It's impossible for you to be "outta this party"

Because your constant repetition of right wing talking points, references to our nominee as a "fascist brownshirt globalist" (and lack of a profile) are evidence that you were never in this party.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gateley]

33. Regardless of how fucked up you feel it is,

and how much you dislike Obama, where would you go?

You obviously care about our country and what happens, otherwise you wouldn't be here. The Dem party, despite your disappointment and anger, is our best hope.

[WeDidIt]

59. Hold on there

Just up above, you said you WEREN'T a Democrat.

Are you lying now or were you lying above?

[newmajority]

64. Both

:evilgrin:

[WeDidIt]

69. But ...if they...lied...when they WERE...Democrat,...that would....mean

they....were telling the truth....when they said they WEREN'T Democratic.

But if they lied both times, they had to be Democratic.

Does not compute.

Does not compute.

Norman, forced shut down.

[book_worm]

13. umm, California already had it's primary. The end of the primaries are next week

with Puerto Rico, Montana and South Dakota.

[mac2]

24. Thanks. See post #16.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. "voices of the delegates (thus the people)"

Well, the people have already spoken.

They've chosen Obama.

The only people left are Reid, Pelosi, etc. And they're going to support the will of the people.

Maybe you should pay more attention to what's going on.

[slinkerwink]

15. wow. so superdelegates shouldn't endorse at all until the convention?

That means that Hillary's superdelegate endorsements should be stripped, which leaves Barack Obama the undisputed delegate winner.

[mac2]

21. Nope.

It's back room politics.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

23. Ok. Superdelegates shouldn't exist. Obama still wins. Now what?

[mac2]

26. It's the principle of them. Even without them a candidate

could win. You need a lot more delegates to do that since they have more voice and votes.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

28. Wait...so what is your point? That there should be *more* delegates? How are they going to do that

with only 2 states to go?

[mac2]

49. The Super Delegates have more power than a regular

delegate. This is not fair or democratic. They are not elected to represent anyone.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

50. Once again, no superdelegates? NO chance for Clinton to win the nomination.

[Bigleaf]

39. You do realize that Hillary had hundreds of Supers come out for her before Super Tuesday?

Were you complaining back then? Just wondering.

Here were some counts:


NYT super delegate count, Nov. 8: Hillary 159, Obama 59
NYT super delegate count, Jan. 23: Hillary 202, Obama 96
CBS super delegate count, Feb. 5: Hillary 209, Obama 118

[mac2]

72. If you reason that with these Obama supporters then Hillary

wins and she should have been declared the winner so we can beat McCain (the convention being only a pep rally). What took so long? Popular vote doesn't mean a thing.

[Cosmocat]

54. Good god ...

So, having SDs announce PUBLICALLY who they are going to support now is "back room politics" but "taking it to the convention" which is the VERY definition of "back room politics" is the truly democratic way ???

Do you people actually believe what you say (note, once again, the queesy feeling I get in my stomache when I hear patently intellectually corrupt republican nonsense) ...

[Zodiak]

31. Very true

Because the bulk of Hillary's SDs announced before the FIRST primary.

The OP is just another crap-stirrer who doesn't even know the primary schedule, but will come here and tell those of us that pay attention to this primary that his ill-informed political opinion is the order of the day. I will not lament the loss of someone in the party if they never were part of the party in the first place.

What is amusing is that most of these crap-stirrers think they are clever.

[Zodiak]

32. self delete

duplicate post

[cali]

22. wrong, wrong, wrong. Obama won this fair and square.

If after he has the delegates needed to make him the presumptive nominee, and hilly decides not to concede, party leaders not only have the right to rally behind the party's nominee, they have an obligation to do so.

[shadowknows69]

27. What year are you in?

Maybe you should leave the party until your brain catches up with the century.

[mac2]

30. Pre-Superdelegates and manipulated "rules" to negate

delegates by Republicans.

[shadowknows69]

47. Ah, not different year, different planet altogether, got it.

[NJmaverick]

29. The voting (not the convention) is for deciding the winner

if you can't see that, there is no point in trying to reason with you.

[mac2]

36. Why have the convention at all but to have a pep rally?

Don't let delegates vote (picked to do so by their voters) or influence party platform. Let the party leaders decide and choose the winner to run against the other party.

It's not democratic. I see you want to act like we determine who wins but we really don't. How dare anyone think more votes (300,000 or so) mean you win!!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

40. If you wanted to change the rules, you should have worked to do so BEFORE election year.

[mac2]

51. Did they ask or inform me of their rules?

Did they know Republicans would set the primary dates in the states under their rule? DA!

[mac2]

52. First you say the popular vote doesn't count and then you say

the delegates at the convention (who are elected by the popular vote) don't count.

[RooferDem]

34. This post is troubling on several levels.

Somebody has fed Mac misinformation, I think. He sounds really mad, but he's got his facts mixed up.

[mac2]

38. Facts mixed up as to allowing voters to decide elections?

[RooferDem]

43. OK, so you are saying you don't think Reid, Pelosi, etc ...

... should use their political influence to get other SD's to endorse before the convention. Is that what you're saying?

[Zodiak]

46. I'll agree with the facts being mixed up

But I do not think it is from misinformation....I think the OP is trying to engage in misinformation.

Why do I say this? Because when told how it really is, he still insists on the same talking point he went into this thread with.

Reid, Pelosi, Dean, and Emanuel do NOT determine who the SDs vote for...and can only ask for an announcement now. They have no influence over the process legally...(and yes, that INCLUDES Dean). The SDs don;t even have to honor their request.

So arguing that these four (who aren't even all in the same factions of the party) solely determine the winner is pure spin, and the OP's last post in this thread still shows he is holding this belief. That is not a misinformed person, it is someone with an agenda trying to stir the pot.

What is ironic is that Hillary's side of the Democratic aisle (the DLC) has been trying to run the party top-down for two decades, and now their little self-appointed spokesperson on this thread (the OP) is arguing that a bottom-upper like Dean is being all elitist and anti-democratic.

[newmajority]

63. Mac has his facts mixed up about a lot of things....

For example, he thinks Lou Dobbs is a great patriot. Along with these so called "Minutemen" assholes......


SIEG HEIL!! Stop them damn Brown people!!111!!!!!!

[msallied]

35. You were already out of this party.

[mac2]

44. Oh Obama is now "the party" and anyone upset about what

has happened this primary is out of the party? Who gave you any rule over my political affiliation? I'm really sorry to confess I voted for Obama the first time he ran for public office in my state.

No it's not just Obama. Its the whole primary of not counting my vote by having candidates drop out for the sake of the party before Super Tuesday. Now they drop out of the primary before the convention for the sake of beating the other party. What crap and you know it.

Our party leaders and the posters who go along with this primary manipulation are shameless. I've voted in many Democratic elections sorry to say.

[msallied]

60. Hillary is no Democrat, period, and the idiots who continue to follow her

can go form their own fringe idiot party. We won't be sorry to see Democrats who embrace Karl Rove leave our ranks, I can promise you that.

[mac2]

93. Obama isn't a Democrat either....

He was recruited by Emanuel because he was really a Republican (DLC) type to run in Illinois. The Chicago Tribune wouldn't support a Liberal Democrat ever!!

If he is truly a Democrat and supported the workers he would resign from the Council on Foreign Relations which meet behind closed doors determining our future. He is like Hillary stated...an elite. Well yes so is she.

[lojasmo]

41. are you 'in the party' now?

What part of the party are you, exactly?

[WeDidIt]

61. Pssst, I think Wikileaks has a memo about this shit.

[msallied]

62. The self-hating Karl Rove wing.

You know, the part that is so ashamed of liberal policies and ideals that they have gravitated more and more to the right over the years until they are barely distinguishable from the right-wing.

[mac2]

65. You are speaking of the candidate you support...not a liberal.

If the voters had a place to check "None of the above" that would win this next election. There is no choice which represents us and our concerns.

Can't blame Rove for all your failings.

[msallied]

77. Funny coming from someone who supports the candidate who FAILED.

Welcome to politics. No party will suit everyone's needs. That isn't the fucking point. The point is being mature enough to realize that you pick the one who comes nearest to representing the interests you hold most dear. If you feel that's John McCain, then go for it.

[lojasmo]

88. Haven't you heard?

Obama is 'the most liberal senator'!!111elenty!!

[mac2]

94. Nope

No liberal supports not bringing home our troops. He wants them to "police" in Iraq which is the same excuse as Republicans.

He supports NAFTA and the trade agreements (wants better this or that which won't happen). He is a globalist. That is no liberal who supports workers.

He wants more Faith Based funding for religious organizations which violates our Constitution. Heck that Congress has not voted on it.

He wants to negotiate with our enemies (Cuba, N. Korea, etc.). Are they enemies and what have they done to us? He takes that "terrorist" action too far.

ETC.

[anonymous171]

53. Not a loss, imo.

[mac2]

66. You don't care about me but what about all the "others"?

Who won't vote in this election because of all the crap in this campaign.

[smiley_glad_hands]

86. Others?

There's really not that many of you. The vast majority of sincere dems will get behind our nominee, Barack Obama.

[AtomicKitten]

74. Bye.

[cottonseed]

75. The delegate hub told me they're called "automatic delegates"

and they can change their minds at any time. So, I'm guessing if Reid, Pelosi, Dean and Emanual make a good enough argument to these "automatic delegates" leading to them changing their votes, it's all within the rules.

[Inuca]

76. Speaking of the "same ole crap"... n/t

[BlooInBloo]

78. And we thank you for doing your part in increasing the average intellegence of our party.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

79. "...outta this party?"

Tell me another good one.

[ecdab]

81. Wow, this is quite incoherent

California?

If the super delegates pledge publicly prior to them being able to pledge behind closed doors in the convention it's undemocratic?

Reid, Pelsosi and Emanual have the power of every other super delegate - they count as one delegate vote a piece. They can also try and persuade people that they are correct in their view like everybody else can. Why single them out? It's not like Hillary hasn't been out there trying to twist every super delegates arm.

[kid a]

82. make my day

[smiley_glad_hands]

85. Later dude. Peace out. eom

[last1standing]

87. YAY! Another self obsessed, whiney, "it's my way or I'm leaving" post!

Go already! Seriously!

I'd much rather lose this election than have to have to listen to these constant tantrums from the so-called "adults" of DU.

Your candidate lost so now you want to destroy the party as punishment. Fine - go do that.

Just shut the fuck up while you're doing it.

And since you've already stated that you're not a Democrat, GET THE FUCK OFF OF DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND!!!

[mac2]

90. When one person's vote is stolen it is all of ours.

Sorry you think I'm not a Democrat. Seems I registered and voted as one for many years. I'd like to save my party from extinction but you can't lead a horse (ass)to water.

[FrenchieCat]

91. We wouldn't have it any other way.

Clinton had 100 Superdelegates behind her before any votes were ever caste.

You sound hypocritical to me.

[cliffordu]

92. Bu-bye!! Don't forget your snack!!

[mac2]

97. Ya...I see a lot of "unity" in this group.

Take no prisoners.

[CaptJasHook]

98. You're not looking for "Unity" Mac, so drop the pretense.

What you are looking for is a fight or a little attention.

If you are satisfied with McCain winning, then go. Just go. Leave the Progressive movement and the Democrats in peace so that we can start working toward November.

[cliffordu]

99. Tired of the crap....Come back when you have something to

ADD to the conversation.

[PretzelWarrior]

100. if you think Cali is last primary....you've got bigger issues

are they paying homeless people to try flaming us now? This is pathetic.

[cliffordu]

101. They work for mad dog.... and '40's