Obama - just another politician playing political games-

[jillan]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/29/obamas.first.campaign/index.html?eref=rss_politics&iref=polticker

As a community organizer, he had helped register thousands of voters. But when it came time to run for office, he employed Chicago rules to invalidate the voting petition signatures of three of his challengers.



The move denied each of them, including incumbent Alice Palmer, a longtime Chicago activist, a place on the ballot. It cleared the way for Obama to run unopposed on the Democratic ticket in a heavily Democrat district.

"That was Chicago politics," said John Kass, a veteran Chicago Tribune columnist. "Knock out your opposition, challenge their petitions, destroy your enemy, right? It is how Barack Obama destroyed his enemies back in 1996 that conflicts with his message today. He may have gotten his start registering thousands of voters. But in that first race, he made sure voters had just one choice."

"He came from Chicago politics," Stewart said. "Politics ain't beanbag, as they say in Chicago. You play with your elbows up, and you're pretty tough and ruthless when you have to be. Sen. Obama felt that's what was necessary at the time, that's what he did. Does it fit in with the rhetoric now? Perhaps not."
-----------------------
It was legal, but it was dirty.



---------------------------
Obama's past battles
See how Barack Obama has used election rules to his advantage during his political career on AC 360.
Tonight, 10 p.m ET

[Hope And Change]

1. Another great unity thread.

[indimuse]

9. unity?

lol.....

[PBS Poll-435]

15. I know!

One just needs to look at the garbage that is on page 1 of GDP

[hokies4ever]

75. Hillary's almost done

Get your shots in while you can. Pretty soon it'll be tombstone-worthy to post like some of you do. :rofl:

[Auntie Bush]

116. Guess that's why I'm getting mine in now when all during the year

I had only been defending Hillary and not attacking Obama...until lately.
I'm throwing my elbows around while I can.

[NotThisTime]

112. Just sticking to the laws my friends, sticking to the laws and rules that were in place

no story

[thoughtcrime1984]

2. You haven't seen the other 5 posts on this? Lay off him if you think he'll be our nom.

The MSM loves to see Democratic bloggers tearing down our candidate.

[jillan]

5. After the shit that has been posted here about our last 2 term Dem President---

Your argument means caca to me.

[CaptJasHook]

14. You seem to have a poo fixation...

Hmmmm anal retentively hanging onto that candidate may be a sure sign of a break in your cognitive development.

[Lerkfish]

40. well, maybe you could see more clearly if you weren't already swimming

in caca.

:shrug:

[thoughtcrime1984]

62. OK, game back on, I guess. nt

[Lerkfish]

73. Pretty much this means they aren't allowed to whine if we counter their arguments anymore

at least, that's how I'm taking it.

[thoughtcrime1984]

79. I'm very tired of this

Between her, Bill, their campaign, Michigan, Florida, the media, supporters trying to shred Obama, this is way past old. I want to get past this acrimony within the party, but folks just won't let it happen. I am eagerly looking forward to June 4, when we can begin to unite as a party, beat down McCain and cronies, and boost up Sen. Obama.

[Lerkfish]

80. valid point.

I look forward to that as well.

[K Gardner]

99. You forgot to COORDINATE... six of you have already posted TP #1 on

the list I gave you !! HillaryClintonForum needs to shape up !

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6173589

[Barrymores Ghost]

109. Thanks, K...

...I was beginning to tire from the same old refrain, myself.

[GoldieAZ49]

104. They actually believe America will elect a community organizer as POTUS

while we are in 2 wars and a teetering economy.

The list of his naivety is long, voters will not over look them. The Obamanation ppl fall over themselves to blame anyone but Obama for them.

[Yotun]

114. So is he a naive community organiser, or a seasoned Chicago style politician?

[rodeodance]

55. oh too too bad. No, not lay off.

[bunnies]

3. This again? *sigh*

Better get it out of your system while you still can. The clocks a tickin.

[Connie_Corleone]

4. He played by the rules unlike the one who shall not be named.

[BlackVelvet04]

16. Sounds just like a bush supporter making excuses for his dirty politics. n/t

[fishwax]

84. playing by the rules is dirty politics?

Weird.

[Cheap_Trick]

22. pffft

Voldemort is a more viable candidate than she is.

[amandabeech]

105. Following rules and doing the moral thing often result in different courses of action.

He was elected by good lawyering, not by garnering votes.

Apparently, he had not figured that out at the time of his first race.

I only hope that he now understands the difference, because if he doesn't, he will face problems as an executive, IMHO.

And yes, yes, I'll vote for him.

[PBS Poll-435]

6. Is he the second coming?

Of Crist?

Several years ago, Governor Crist also dated Katherine Harris, former Secretary of State of Florida and a former member of the US House of Representatives.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Crist

[lojasmo]

7. Why can't you people keep this stuff over at the slag heap?

That trashpile is much better suited for detrius like this.

[CaptJasHook]

8. Pirhana, just another fish out of water.

Start working for the candidate, this primary is over. Nothing left from this party but a bunch of spilled WHINE.

[jillan]

20. The water is fine, thank you. And when Obama has 2025 delegates, I will call him the nominee.

(or whatever the magic number is going to be after tomorrow)

[CaptJasHook]

43. Pinky Promise?????

[Bucky]

74. I never doubted you.

I'm sure you noticed the trend here. Obama plays by the rules and holds his opponents accountable to them. He'll start making you proud of him the moment he switches. He's not a Dukakis.

[jillan]

21. ----

[JoFerret]

141. But s/he hooked you!

.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Just another crybaby

with copy pasta whining about Obama playing by the rules.

Hey, I thought your candidate was supposed to be more experienced, no you're complaining about getting outclassed? Pff.

[AtomicKitten]

11. And played them better, as it turns out, than Ms. Flick.

[Blue_Tires]

86. lol...great film

i was grinding my teeth watching her, though...i wanted to reach into the movie screen and strangle her...

[John Q. Citizen]

12. Thank god he won't be chewed up by McCain. Now I'm voting for him because I see he's tough enough to

win!

[indimuse]

13. indeed.

knr!

[Cant trust em]

17. The only people who think that Obama is more than "just another politician" are Clintonistas.

They are the only people talking about Obama being a messiah.

[politicasista]

or use the word "cultists" n/t

[murielm99]

63. Really? I'm a Clinton supporter and I didn't even know about

the term "cultists" until I saw it on DU. I saw thread after thread of Obama supporters whining about being called cultists. No Clinton supporters were contributing to those threads. They consisted of Obama supporters only, answering each other and decrying the name-callers. They looked like support groups who had had too much caffeine.

[politicasista]

68. Not here, but I was

talking to a political blogging person that supports Hillary. And all she kept bringing up how Obama (and Michelle) was all style, no substance and that is supporters were nothing but "cultists." And believe me, that word was used more than three times.

[murielm99]

127. And it was brought into this thread by an Obama supporter.

I don't see any Clinton supporters here using the word.

[beachmom]

100. The "cultist" meme was spread by Clintonista Sydney Blumenthal.

It went all around the world; I even saw it in Der Spiegel. It wasn't just DU, believe me.

[fishwax]

18. so he won by sticking to the rules?

That's the problem?

[amandabeech]

106. He won by playing the rules. n/t

[fishwax]

115. are politicians not supposed to observe the rules?

:shrug:

[amandabeech]

117. I guess you just don't get my concept.

Obama used the rules to avoid having to actually convince people to vote for him.

His actions were legal, but he deprived the voters of any choice at the polls other than him, including their very popular incumbent senator.

In my view, the object of elections in a democracy is having an actual choice of candidate. In Chicago, the election is the democratic primary.

Communist countries used to have elections with only one choice on the ballot which real democracies used to dismiss as exercises in totalitarianism.

I'm not accusing Obama of totalitarianism, but taking all choices off the ballot, legally or not, takes the democracy out of the process for me and exalts legalism over principle, form over substance.

I know Obama did really well in law school, but I thought that he was smart enough to understand using the law to answer questions of morality and principle can result in the perversion of those two great pillars of society. In other words, the law has its limits.

I hope that Obama now understands those limits, because if he seeks actually to govern solely by citing what is legal and not what is moral or principled, he will surely fail.

[fishwax]

125. Obama didn't deprive the voters of a choice

He's not the one who filled his petition with improper signatures.

I understand your concept--I just don't think it's Obama's fault that other candidates petitions couldn't stand legal scrutiny.

[amandabeech]

130. He's the one who eliminated all choices but himself.

He was not required to do so.

It's not Obama's fault that the other candidates had problems with their petitions.

It is Obama's fault that he took it upon himself, in a completely self-aggrandizing act, to remove all choices but him from the ballot.

He elevated the laws above the principles of democracy, in my view.

He's not the only lawyer who makes that mistake.

But he's the one running for President.

[fishwax]

132. the laws are part of the principles of democracy

and challenging petitions is not an unusual, outlandish, or inherently undemocratic action. He was, as you say, not required to challenge the petitions. But the other candidates *were* required to make sure that their petitions had an adequate number of legitimate signatures. They failed, letting themselves (and their supporters) down. Of course, I would understand if supporters of the other candidates were to blame Obama rather than their own candidate's failure, but it is what it is.

[amandabeech]

133. Re-read my post.

The efficacy of the law as a rule to solve problems, moral and social, is very limited.

To me, what you're advocating is using the law to clear others in the field with no more reason that the desire to win at all costs and the fear of facing the voters directly.

It's legal. People do it. That doesn't make it right.

They are *required* to submit petitions. Obama was not *required* to shoot them down.

If you're telling me that the popular Senator didn't have enough actual support in the community that her protege should have at least decided to face her fair and square as a matter of principle, then I just don't know what more to say to you other than, "Go to law school."

[fishwax]

142. re-read mine

I'm not advocating people using the law to clear others in the field; I'm advocating people observing the law in order to complete their petition drives effectively. If the senator was popular, efficient, and effective, doing so should have been no problem at all. But for some reason, her operation failed to do so. That's not Obama's fault, no matter how much one spins. They had a responsibility that they failed to live up to.

[amandabeech]

145. So you're saying that any politician who's nominating petition

is inadequate is incompetent and should not be running?

I don't think that this conversation is getting anywhere.

[rocktivity]

129. It's not his fault that none of the other candidates were qualified to run.

Why should you compete with anyone who is either too lazy, ignorant or incompetent to obey the rules? Was he supposed to pick and choose which candidates to leave on the ballot though they ALL had bad signatures?

:headbang:
rocknation

[amandabeech]

131. No one forced him to do what he did.

If the other candidates were so lazy, ignorant and incompetent, then Obama easily should have defeated them at the ballot box, don't you think?

Why not let the voters decide, not the courts? You saw how well the Supreme Court did in deciding the 2000 election. Why give courts the power?

Why not get experience in campaigning, particularly if you're sure to win?

Why wait until you're ready to run for President before you run against a tough opponent?

He and his friends already knew how to be lawyers.

Better that they learn about being politicians. But I guess Obama hired Axelrod to do that for him.

[rocktivity]

143. That doesn't alter the fact that without the proper signatures

THEY HAD NO BUSINESS BEING ON THE BALLOT.

:headbang:
rocknation

[KSinTX]

136. Well, for god's sake let the dead and ineligible vote nt

[sandnsea]

19. Pirhana joins the ranks of swiftboater, woohoo!!

That isn't what happened. Why don't you prove you have some ethics and go get the whole truth. Start with Alice Palmer running for Congress that year and promising Obama she didn't want her seat back.

[PBS Poll-435]

23. Wow. Why don't you take it up with CNN

And knock-off the personal attacks.

[Hope And Change]

30. You mean Clinton News Network?

[PBS Poll-435]

33. That is the best excuse you have?

:rofl:

[Hope And Change]

42. LOL.What happened to your Hillboot "Nj Securalist"?

:rofl:

[PBS Poll-435]

60. He was kicked off the island, I hear.

[jillan]

25. Tell that to CNN, this is cut and pasted from their site.

[PBS Poll-435]

27. !!!

Beat ya by a minute.

;-)

[aaronbees]

103. Gosh, CNN would never participate in swiftboat tactics

:sarcasm:

[Cheap_Trick]

26. pirhana's just another guppy

who only dreams of being a bigger fish. If he had some ethics and got the whole truth, he'd have nothing to post.

[jillan]

44. Attack the messenger, not the message.

How very Faux-like of you.

[Cheap_Trick]

144. You're not the messenger

just the copy boy. And you're about the 6th or 7th guppy to post the same attack.

Oh well, within a week you'll behave or begone.


"Horrors! Obama held people to the rules. That's not fair! Poutrage! Poutrage!"

[murielm99]

54. She did not PROMISE.

Stop putting words in other peoples' mouths.

She was very popular and had a right to run. Obama was scared of her, so he had her knocked off the ticket.

[sandnsea]

97. Yes she did promise

"Palmer assured Obama that she was comfortable surrendering her safe seat in a community that had produced a string of successful anti-machine candidates, including the late Sen. Paul Douglas (D) and Abner Mikva, future member of Congress, federal judge and White House counsel. She informally blessed his candidacy and said if she lost the House race, she would not drop back into the Illinois contest.

But after Jesse Jackson Jr. (D) won the special election in November 1995, Palmer had second thoughts. Her followers pressed Obama to drop out. He refused. Palmer and her supporters hurriedly gathered hundreds of signatures to put her name on the ballot."

So he challenged those "hurriedly gathered" signatures, like any sane person would. Since he challenged hers, he had to challenge all of them to be fair. That's all that happened. He wasn't going to get pushed out by party machine politics. If they had legal petitions, they wouldn't have had any problems.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/12/AR2007111201945_pf.html

[murielm99]

128. I don't see any promises made there.

I do see the word "informally."

You are reading into this what you like, just as his supporters see godlike qualities in Obama that do not exist.

[ElkHunter]

24. Swift Boat Veterans for Hillary...

...taking a page from Karl Rove's playbook. How sad and pathetic.

[redqueen]

29. Butbutbut... CNN said it!

It's not their fault they're spreadin the RW crap! CNN made them! They're verrrrrry "concerned" don'tchaknow!

:crazy:

[LisaM]

28. The rules point is that Obama finds a way to twist the rules to his advantage

I think it's pretty obvious that Alice Palmer could easily have gotten enough signatures. But he found a new voter list and managed to throw off signatures she'd already verified. Considering that she was a popular incumbent, I think it went against voter intent in her district who would have liked her on the ballot. And I think he just wanted the position as a stepping stone.
And when he ran for US Senate, his opponents got driven off the ballot too (both times at the last minute, and both times by planted details of divorce scandals).

If it doesn't give you pause that THREE TIMES his opponents have somehow or other been knocked off the ballot before an election, I think it should. I'm sure that he's quite shocked that he hasn't yet found a way to get rid of Hillary, though he's obviously tried often enough. It's really hard for me to buy into the rhetoric of someone who campaigns this way. I didn't know the Alice Palmer story until yesterday, but it just cemented the feeling I've gotten watching Obama the last number of months. In fact, I'm sure that a lot of the "Hillary must get out now!" posts are probably encouraged by, if not started by, operatives.

There is the spirit of law, and the letter of law. By adhering too strictly to the letter, you can defy the spirit.

[PBS Poll-435]

32. Good Post

:thumbsup:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

35. I'm pretty sure "Junior Senator from NY" is a stepping stone, too.

Considering Hillary had jack to do with the state beforehand.

[amandabeech]

107. Also, he didn't have the confidence to just go out there and get more votes!

I agree with your post whole-heartedly.

I'll vote for him, but his actions then do not reflect well on him, IMHO.

[redqueen]

31. Well hey... maybe if y'all wish hard enough, someone will care!

:eyes:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

47. Today, he's a ruthless fighter.

Yesterday, he was an empty-suit pushover. :rofl:

[redqueen]

49. Even the SPIN comes with moving goalposts!

:silly:

[Lerkfish]

77. LOL!

[Lerkfish]

34. come next week, are you going to support Obama?

you know, the nominee?

or will you continue to work against the democratic nominee after next week?

[ElkHunter]

61. Of course not.

come next week, are you going to support Obama?
you know, the nominee?

or will you continue to work against the democratic nominee after next week?

Next week they're going to show that they put a cult of personality above principle and take their ball and go home to vote for McCain.

[jillan]

85. Are you putting words in my mouth?

You might want to rethink that :)

[Renew Deal]

36. Another DUer who believes in breaking election law.

Would you have preferred that a candidate that broke the law got on the ballot?

[nichomachus]

37. Playing by the rules -- How Dare He!!!

[SeaLyons]

38. K&R

[WeDidIt]

39. This was yesterday's talking point

It's Pastorgate today.

You need to catch up.

Freaky Deaky

[NatBurner]

58. heh

i only come in these for the freaky deakies

[WeDidIt]

71. Freaky Deaky

:evilgrin:

[billyoc]

41. Damn. I was hoping for an electrician.

NOW what am I going to do? :rofl:

[jillan]

50. How do you do it?

How do you keep your sense of humor around this place?

[billyoc]

90. Sarcasm is in my DNA.

:hi:

[grantcart]

45. We keep recommending and recommending these threads

are you trying to wear us out?

To sum up - Yes Obama takes the high road and doesn't engage in personal attacts and yes he is fearless in making sure that the rules are obeyed.

Yes this was discussed in DU at length several months ago and yes it is a sign of a dead campaign when the supporters are just saying the same thing over and over again.

In the last 24 hours this thread has been posted 4 times

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=132 by Candice
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6171014&mesg_id=6171014 by Cricket 08
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6172542&mesg_id=6172542 by ZLT 234
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6172683&mesg_id=6172683 by Ghiren Zambi

and now yours

1)this was discussed in many threads months ago.

2) this is the 5th thread in 24 hours

3) We love what it says about Obama. He still takes the high road avoiding any type of personal attack on opponents but he is also tough as nails on making sure that he doesn't have a disadvantage because of illegal operations.

So he is tough as nails and takes the high road.

4) It really has very little to do about why he succeeds as this article shows that he completely change the political landscape
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-1993... /
In the final, climactic buildup to November's general election, with George Bush gaining ground on Bill Clinton in Illinois and the once-unstoppable campaign of senatorial candidate Carol Moseley Braun embroiled in allegations about her mother's Medicare liability, one of the most important local stories managed to go virtually unreported: The number of new voter registrations before the election hit an all-time high. And the majority of those new voters were black. More than 150,000 new African-American voters were added to the city's rolls. In fact, for the first time in Chicago's history-including the heyday of Harold Washington-voter registrations in the 19 predominantly black wards outnumbered those in the city's 19 predominantly white ethnic wards, 676,000 to 526,000.

The election, to some degree, turned on these totals: Braun and Clinton had almost unanimous support among blacks. But just as important, if less obvious, are the implications black votership could have for future city and state elections: For the first time in ten years, more than half a million blacks went to the polls in Chicago. And with gubernatorial and mayoral elections coming up in the next two years, it served notice to every¬one from Jim Edgar to Richard M. Daley that an African-American voting bloc would be a force to be reckoned with in those races.

None of this, of course, was accidental. The most effective minority voter registration drive in memory was the result of careful handiwork by Project Vote!, the local chapter of a not-for-profit national organization. "It was the most efficient campaign I have seen in my 20 years in politics," says Sam Burrell, alderman of the West Side's 29th Ward and a veteran of many registration drives.


5) If you are trying to promote Senator Clinton's campaign for Vice President you actually have to come up with a compelling rationale on why she should be added to the ticket.

6) If your trying to wear us down by keep posting these same threads so that we have to rec them well we will try and keep up but these articles are great and they completely undermine the Clinton arguments that he is too naive or soft for a General Election campaign - but I think 4 in one day should be enough.

[Lerkfish]

51. the xerox machine is working overtime!

this is what happens when you have a cult.

[politicasista]

56. And that's why he is......

winning.

He remains calm while taking the high road. That is a smart campaign in my book. :patriot:

[anonymous171]

46. Awesome. I hope he finds a way to shove Hillary out. RULES FTW!

[scheming daemons]

48. Pirhana.... you are reading YESTERDAY's Clinton blast fax. There are new talking points today...

...check your fax machine again.

[CaptJasHook]

52. But I thought Hillary was the only dirty fighter capable of taking on the Rethugs?

Damn, I'll have to erase the "Barack isn't tough enough" meme.

[Bleacher Creature]

53. A politician playing political games? What's next, a baseball player playing baseball?

THE HORROR!!!!

[Lerkfish]

57. ASTROTURFING SPAM

geez, how about a new rule? once you cultists have 5 people posting the same cut and paste, you just post a link to the previous five from then on.

mmmkay?

[rodeodance]

59. i do not like your rule.

[Lerkfish]

66. so you prefer pointless repetitive spamming of the board with the same RW talking points?

LOL! next week you'll be in a world of hurt, I imagine.

[redqueen]

78. Well... by all the evidence available... yes.

Yes they do. :P

[jillan]

65. Ok - let's see the Obama supporters start that new rule.

Or do you not see it when it helps your candidate?

[Lerkfish]

70. I am not receiving talking points and disseminating them like a fax machine.

:shrug: so I could agree to this rule with no problem whatsoever.

[LSK]

64. 5TH TIME IN 2 DAYS I SAW THIS POSTED

PLEASE COORDINATE YOUR TALKING POINTS AND POST ONCE!!!

[apocalypsehow]

67. He won, she lost. Get over it.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

:nopity:

[niyad]

69. oh my, looks like the sainted one can play down and dirty, too. seems his supporters

don't like the notion that he isn't exactly pure.

[NYCGirl]

83. No, you just don't like the notion that Obama is a better politician than the

vaunted Clinton machine.

[niyad]

87. no, I don't like what I have seen on this board from his supporters who act as if he were some sort

of pure, noble, above-it all saint, who isn't really a politician. and then foam or squirm or try any way they can to twist things when it is pointed out that he IS, in fact, a politician, and not a saint.

nice try, though. some of us are not under any sort of delusions about any of our candidates.

[americanstranger]

89. Speaking of nice tries...

I went over this yesterday.

True to form, you give a laundry list of things we supposedly think Obama is - pure, noble, above it all, a saint.

You guys are so wrong - and you've been wrong from the beginning - because that's your frame, not ours.

I looked at Obama and saw a politician. A gifted one. So gifted, he's got the mighty Clintons scraping for justifications to stay in a nomination race that they were once so sure was theirs.

So the guy is a gifted politician. We knew that. Too bad your candidate didn't want to deal with that until she was fully, completely defeated and making one desperate move after another to stave off that defeat.

You think idealism and nothing more attracts voters to Obama. Many, many of us looked at things pragmatically and saw that if he could take out Bill Clinton, he'd mop the floor with that cadaverous excuse for a presidential candidate from Arizona.

We saw it. You didn't. Too bad.

- as

[niyad]

91. I wasn't here yesterday, so have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

it just fries some of you that your noble, pure candidate (oh, the message of hope, he is above it all, plays by the rules, etc., etc, never indulges in nastiness (I could go on, but some of his supporters would get really upset that their hero-worship was being remarked upon) isn't seen that way by a lot of people (like the millions who voted for, worked for, and wanted Sen. Clinton, you know)

there is nothing for me to see in this man, except a man who denigrates the very decade that gave him his chance, a man who praises ronnie ray-gun, a man who talks about repukes being the party of ideas, a man so arrogant that he could say, months ago, that all of Sen. Clinton's supporters would come over to him, none of his would go to her, a man who talks abstinence education, and graciously says a woman may choose an abortion, so long as she does it "prayerfully", a man who threw his friend, his mentor, his spiritual advisor under the bus when it become politically expedient, and assumed that all of us would believe the absurdity that he had no clue what the good rev was preaching for all his years. oh, and let us not forget that he promised not to run this time, so he has already broken one promise to the people.

he may be the democratic nominee (when he reaches 2,025) but that doesn't mean that I am going to rejoice in having to vote for him.

[americanstranger]

92. Wow, you couldn't have missed my point any more completely if you'd tried.

You're just reiterating what you said in the post I responded to.

My response (since you obviously didn't read it, or had real problems with actually understanding what the words actually meant) was that I, and a lot of O supporters, never bought into the 'Messiah' crap.

You obviously did, becuse you seem to have a compulsion to repeat the same words (noble, pure, above it all, ad infinitum) and somehow see fit to attribute them to me.

Not gonna work.

Obama, pure? Maybe not. Noble? Well, much more so than his last remaining challenger.

You - willfully obtuse? Yeah. Either that, or severely lacking in reading comprehension skills. Let me spell it out for you.

Barack Obama is a politician. A kick-ass politician who took on the vaunted Clinton machine and brought them to their knees.

Clear enough now? Sure hope so.

- as

[niyad]

93. nice try, again. no comprehension problems, I am simply tired of obama's supporters

acting so self-righteous. NOW he is a politician--until today, he was the great instrument of change. my comprehension is just fine.

oh, and by the way, you have NO idea who my candidate was, you have only an assumption.

[NYCGirl]

96. You know, one can be an instrument of change AND a politican. It's just in

how you practice the politics.

[americanstranger]

139. Get off it.

He was a politician yesterday, he was a politician last week, last month.

I know this. A great many Obama supporters know this. Only you seem to make the assumtion that we think of him as something more.

This is the same point I've tried to make three times now. You have repeatedly missed my point. That is not my fault, it's yours.

Either you don't want to disturb your perception of what you think Obama supporters think, or you don't have the intellect necessary to recognize the point I've repeatedly tried to make here.

Again, not my problem. I've told you how it is and how I arrived at supporting Obama three times now. You just seem either unwilling to accept it or incapable of understanding it.

Not. My. Problem.

- as

[americanstranger]

88. I think that's behind a lot of the resentment.

Bill Clinton was revered as the Muhammad Ali of the Dem party - the 'Greatest Of All Time.'

Then some new jack comes out of Chicago and takes every punch they can throw at him, and he just stands there smiling while they punch themselves out.

Clinton supporters can't stand it (and Bill must be out of his mind over it!), but that's the way things go. No matter how big you are, no matter how good you are, you will sooner or later be eclipsed.

- as

[whistler162]

120. In many ways Senator Obama is the

Harry S. Truman of this generation.

Both started in machine politics and like President Truman Senator Obama has apparently survived most if not all of the temptations available to a politician involved in a political machine.

Whether, he rises to the Office of President is something we will see, God willing, in the next year. What I do know is that the Republican candidate and Senator Clinton have not shown any potential to rise to that Office. Bob Barr is a question mark an enigma that might surprise, in a good way, all of us.

[niyad]

72. k & r

[LaurenG]

76. Ahh such is the way of it I guess. Now they're both just

"yucky democrats".:sarcasm: I am just going to have to resist recommending this though.x(

[workinclasszero]

81. Obama is our nominee..who you gonna vote for?

McWar or Obama?

I'm voting Obama. A dem ticket from top to bottom.

You?

[amelia]

110. I'm voting for Clinton in Nov.

[ProSense]

82. Not a bad article. A lot of spin, but from your link:

Obama's challenge was perfectly legal, said Jay Stewart of the Chicago's Better Government Association. Although records of the challenges are no longer on file for review with the election board, Stewart said Obama is not the only politician to resort to petition challenges to eliminate the competition.

Ooh, a legal petition challenge compared to illogical demands.

Hillary thought she was dealing with a political novice, and realized she was falling behind too late. So she had to resort to dirty campaign tactics.

[papapi]

94. Your opinion: It was legal, but it was dirty. My opinion: He played by the rules.

[papapi]

95. yawn ....................... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz .........

[beachmom]

98. I am not sure why you are posting this, Pirhana. Obama is going to be the nominee.

Hillary has lost. It will be over by next week. And this story is very old. I can also tell you that challenging petitions is quite normal, and is going on in Mass. right now in the GOP primary for Senate.

[Aloha Spirit]

101. I'm glad we have you to provide a contrasting perspective. It will be useful in the Nov. election.

[GoldieAZ49]

102. he doesn't play them very well, Wright got out before he could win the nomination

but it may be given to him, but the GE will not be given to him.

[Why Syzygy]

108. Legal and Dirty. That sounds like something George Bush would say.

Clean and Illegal is his style all the way. And you like it like that, doncha?

[amelia]

111. Good and accurate post that describes BO "politics"

[JoFerret]

113. "community organiser'

Hmmm. Mixed feelings.

[dchill]

118. "playing political games" - and winning!

Guess he's just better at it than the Clintons.

:shrug:

[Auntie Bush]

119. He doesn't seem to be the Obama he pretends to be.

He also wants to "disenfranchise" the Fl votes. I can see him not wanting to give Hillary all the WI votes...but I think she should get all the votes cast for her and Obama should get a percentage of the undecided votes equal to Obama and Edwards support at the time...which would give him a little more than half the undecided votes. I think that would be fair.

[grantcart]

121. And of course none of what you said was factual

1) There is no Disenfrachisement. The Florida delegation has been disenfranchised and the question is to 'enfranchise' them

2) Wisconsin - WI Was supposed to me Hillary's firewall but Obama won by a landslide

3) Michigan which you did not mention has a compromise on the table which Obama has agreed to but Hillary has not.
Right now Hillary is running about 5% ahead in the polls but she wants all of the delegates or at least 75% of them.

And none of this has anything to do with the OP or the article you linked.

If you go upthread you can see the debunking of the Clinton supporters take on this despite the fact that they keep posting it with now over 5 threads in one day.

Short story on the OP - Obama takes the high road by not attacking candidates and is tough as nails on enforcing the rules so he never loses an advantage - something that was missing in our last two nominees, unfortunately.

[Auntie Bush]

124. I'm sure you realized

that I meant MI instead of WI...but if it make you feel better to misunderstand. Congratulations on being right with that point. :applause:

[grantcart]

126. its just an example of how careless you are with all of your facts

You were just as wrong as if you said it about Michigan

But you are way beyond that now its only about bringing Obama down and McCain up for you any little fact can go to hell.

[WeDidIt]

122. Politics Ain't Beanbag

Assholes who are sucked into thinking of him as "Obamabi" have no fucking clue how politics works in Chicago. It's hardcore shit here. HE also cultivates the view of him as some naive novice when it comes to poltics. It allows him to get in the punch they never expect (hint: in the primaries it was a sweep of 12 elections in February).

Obama has more fight in his little finger than the entire Democratic Party has shown in the past eight years.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

123. Everyone In This Damn Thread Needs To Get A Friggin Grip.

To the Obama zealots: No, this isn't swiftboating.

To the Obama bashers: No, this doesn't make him unfit for anything.

For god's sake I'm so sick of people being so stupid as to act surprised or defensive when politicians act like politicians. This is politics. Obama's a politician. Though there is a broad range as to how bad or good a politician can be, at the end of the day they're still politicians. Obama could NEVER get to where he is if he didn't in many ways play the games of being a politician. Some people really need to grow up and get a grip already. Stop acting so surprised or defensive about a politician being a politician. Let's at least be thankful that at the end of the day, he's a politician who actually does give a damn, regardless of some of the things he might've done or have to do at times in order to be a player in politics.

[americanstranger]

137. That's what I'm saying.

So many people assume that Obama supporters see the guy as some kind of evcangelical leader,.

I never did. I saw him as a really, really good politician. The kind that we've been waiting for in the Dem party - someone who will take it to the GOP and leave them wondering what hit them. Someone who will kick ass and not apologize for it.

I never saw the guy as pure or above politics. You cannot get to where he is right now - on the verge of taking the Democratic nomination - without knowing how to play the game.

Anyone who bought into him as some kind of messianic leader was not paying attention. But I'll say it again - I never see Obama supporters referring to him like that. It's always Clinton supporters calling him 'The Chosen One' and like that.

And referring to him like that is, in a word, asinine. Anyone who expects him to be more than a politician, and anyone who frames his candidacy through some snarky rhetoric about a 'Messiah' oughta check themselves. It ain't about that. It's about a politician who knows how to kick the opposition's ass, pure and simple.

Isn't that what we've been hoping for since Bush took office? Well, now we've got it. Maybe we all ought to chill the fuck out and enjoy and appreciate his political acumen.

- as

[anonymous171]

138. Ah, OMC, proving that it is possible to be a hillbot and obamaton at the same time.

[iconicgnom]

134. another troll post

snooze

[krawhitham]

135. Oh my, He employed the rules, No wonder you see a problem

[gort]

140. wow, I guess if you swim with sharks

maybe you shouldn't be surprised about getting up with fleas?

Hmmm...?