"Obama got 0% of the vote in Michigan...

[Labors of Hercules]

So he should get 0% of the total pledged delegates. Hillary got 55% of the vote and should receive 55% of the total pledged delegates."

In my personal opinion, any elected official who makes this argument should be impeached for violating the rights of the American People. :grr:

[Endangered Specie]

1. who made it?

[Labors of Hercules]

4. Hillary Clinton has been making it for weeks. nt.

[Doityourself]

18. Hillary and her surrogates, Lanny Davis, Wolfson, McAuliffe, Ferguson..where have you been?.

[Endangered Specie]

33. working mostly...

I wanted to know if any of them said *exactly* that.

[Doityourself]

45. yes, they said exactly that...straight up, no chaser. they are still saying it..

[papapi]

46. As TahitiNut has so 'eloquently' pointed out. THERE ARE NO PLEDGED DELEGATES.....

...in Michigan because the primary was invalid. Thank you for making this clear days ago TahitiNut.

[PBS Poll-435]

2. Who took his name off the ballot?

I will give you a hint (It wasn't Kucinich.)

[LSK]

6. why did he do that?

[PBS Poll-435]

7. Internal Polling?

[LSK]

13. Nope, guess again

You can do it, I know you can. Might even have something to do with some meeting tomorrow.

[PBS Poll-435]

20. Umm....Fear of Rejection?

[LSK]

32. are you really this ignorant or just playing childrens games?

[PBS Poll-435]

39. He is playing chess, she is playing checkers. Remember?

:eyes:

I am not going to divine his motives for filing to have his name removed from the Michigan ballot.

[DeschutesRiver]

79. Didn't Edwards also take hs name off?

My understanding is that they agreed not to participate at all, and taking their names off the ballot was in support of that.

Except it appears Hillary "forgot" to fully acknowledge her non participation by leaving her name on. Likely even back then she realized it could be an ace in the hole if things got dicey.

[arewenotdemo]

50. He's not playing children's games.

[scheming daemons]

14. Nope... he was running even with Hillary in pre-Michigan polls....

[PBS Poll-435]

42. Not even close. Why say something that isn't even close to a realistic lie?

Pollster Dates N/Pop Clinton Gravel Kucinich Uncommitted
ARG 1/12-14/08 600 LV 56 1 3 31
Det News/WXYZ/EPIC-MRA 1/9-12/08 600 LV 56 - 3 33
Mitchell Interactive 1/10-11/08 405 LV 44 0 1 26
ARG 1/9-11/08 600 LV 57 0 3 28
Free Press/Local4
Selzer 1/9-11/08 600 LV 56 0 2 30
MIRS (D) 1/6-7/08 300 LV 48 1 3 28



Pollster Dates N/Pop Clinton Edwards Kucinich Obama Richardson
MIRS (D) 11/30-12/3/07 LV 37 11 2 20 0
EPIC-MRA 11/7-13/07 400 LV 49 15 2 18 1
Strategic Vision (R) 10/5-7/07 LV 42 10 1 26 7
ARG 9/1-4/07 600 LV 43 14 2 21 5
EPIC-MRA 8/26-31/07 396 LV 40 16 5 21 1
EPIC-MRA 8/8-13/07 400 LV 45 16 2 26 2
Strategic Vision (R) 7/6-8/07 LV 32 16 1 25 7
ARG 5/4-7/07 600 LV 38 14 2 25 2
Strategic Vision (R) 4/13-15/07 LV 29 22 1 24 3
EPIC-MRA 3/12-18/07 454 LV 45 16 - 29 4

[scheming daemons]

78. That was two months before Michigan! LOL......

A week before Michigan, a Detroit Free-Press poll had Hillary ahead of Obama by 5 points.

[PBS Poll-435]

80. Did you even bother to look at the date rather than the pretty picture?

That is why I gave you 7 polls from January


Pollster Dates N/Pop Clinton Gravel Kucinich Uncommitted
ARG 1/12-14/08 600 LV 56 1 3 31
Det News/WXYZ/EPIC-MRA 1/9-12/08 600 LV 56 - 3 33
Mitchell Interactive 1/10-11/08 405 LV 44 0 1 26
ARG 1/9-11/08 600 LV 57 0 3 28
Free Press/Local4 Selzer 1/9-11/08 600 LV 56 0 2 30
MIRS (D) 1/6-7/08 300 LV 48 1 3 28



He was about 20-30 points behind.

It was close! :rofl:

[flyingfysh]

30. he took his name off because DNC said it wouldn't count

The primary was too early, DNC said it wouldn't count.

[rodeodance]

31. but the DNC had no rule that they must take their name off.

[LSK]

34. if it didnt count, what difference would it make???

[rodeodance]

38. I was just pointing out a fact. --

[intaglio]

53. So there are these politicians

Who sign an agreement with the DNC to remove their names from the MI Ballot. One of these politicians magically refuses to honour that agreement because it is clear that, come the convention, these votes are not goimg to count for anything.

Then with a wave of her magic wand this same politician now wants these votes to count ... I bet this politician is the sort that would cheat her kid at tic-tac-toe.

[MonkeyFunk]

58. Nope

nobody signed an agreement with the DNC to take their names off the MI ballot.

Why do you guys just make shit up?

[Labors of Hercules]

72. They agreed not to compete.

All of them. And MOST of them rightly assented that this agreement wouldn't be legitimate unless their names were removed from the ballot.

I was pissed when Hillary kept her name on in Michigan. It was an immoral decision then, and it is even moreso now.

Had she not done that, the Presidential primary would most DEFINITELY been redone at a later date with no issue whatsoever, and don't give me some bullshit that she was standing up for Michigan voters, because she wasn't. She was ditching the agreement with the DNC for her own benefit, plain and simple.

[Orsino]

51. Obviously, becaue he's foolish.

All those Democratic candidates that upheld the agreement were just dumb. Clinton was smart enough to go back on her own word, and should therefore be rewarded.

Have I got it right?

[Labors of Hercules]

59. I'd say that pretty well sums it up.

yep.

[bunnies]

8. Who competed?

I'll give you a hint (It was Hillary).

[PBS Poll-435]

11. And others too.

Let's not forget them.

[bunnies]

15. Correct. And others too.

But those others dont matter at this juncture. Imho, having the name on the ballot violated the agreement not to compete. Yet Obama is the one vilified for taking his name off. How is that?

[PBS Poll-435]

23. Vilified?

Nah.

The real Soviet-style election is when the the mob is demanding 40+% of the delegates to go to the person who got 0% of the vote.

[bunnies]

29. Oh, come on.

The MI primary was not legitimate and you and I both know it. Hillary broke the pledge by competing. Obama didnt compete and therefor got no votes. Hillarys 'votes' arent any more legitimate than Obamas 'votes' are. Preferred candidate aside, do you not agree? Do you really think its fair to seat the delegation as-is and call it democratic? Really? :shrug:

[PBS Poll-435]

40. If it was as unfair and illegitimate as you say, then how should the delegates be awarded?

[Labors of Hercules]

16. It doesn't matter. His name was not on the ballot.

He played by the rules, and therefor the people of Michigan did not have the option to vote for him.

If you think this is reason enough to violate the faith of the people of Michigan who want Obama to be the nominee, then you have a perverted sense of democracy.

[PBS Poll-435]

25. The Democratic People of Michigan deserved a re-vote.

[rodeodance]

35. but it was the Obama lawyers who argues against a re-vote.

[Heathen57]

41. Why not be truthful and say WHY his lawyers

were against the recount?

It had something to do with people who knew the vote didn't count and voted Repub to skew their results. If there was a revote that actually counted they could not vote.

That proves that Clinton doesn't really give a damn about "Every vote counts." Just the votes that would go to her.

Some Clinton supporters tell half-truths to support their candidate. They have to, it is all they have left.

[Labors of Hercules]

70. this is one of many very valid reasons why a revote would have been unfair to Obama...

most of them exceedingly politically complex.

[Doityourself]

21. So, are you saying none those uncommitteds voted for Obama? Talk about disenfranchising voters..lol

[PBS Poll-435]

26. Yes. I can say with the utmost certainty that nobody voted for Obama in Michigan.

According to the certified results.

However, can you tell me with any degree of certainty, how many Uncommitted voters would have preferred Obama had he been on the ballot?

[Doityourself]

47. Don't be a smartie pants. You know darn well some of those uncommitteds were for Obama..can you say

without a doubt and with a straight face that none of them voted for him, not the certified BS, but straight up?

[PBS Poll-435]

52. But how many?

Can you say with any degree of certainty how many people would have voted for Obama if he hadn't filed the paperwork to remove his name from the ballot?

Also how many votes did John Conyer's radio advertisements gain him?

[Doityourself]

57. No, I can't say how many, but I'm willing to bet a good chuck of those uncommitted votes were for

Obama.

Breakdown the demographics and compare Michigan to similar states, I think that is a good way of doing it. But no way should Hillary get any of the uncommitted votes.

[PBS Poll-435]

61. Using the exit poll data an estimate would have been

Clinton gets 70-71 delegates (based on a purely proportional allocation based on the vote in MI)

Obama would have got 40-41.

Clinton would have netted around 27-33 delegates.

[Doityourself]

75. And she'd still be behind...MI & FL are not the sole reasons why she's losing to Obama

[Hansel]

60. Can you tell us with the utmost certainty that none of the people

who voted for Clinton wouldn't have voted for Obama if he had been on the ballot? Can you tell us with utmost certainty that none of the people who stayed home, would have come out to vote for Obama if his name had been on the ballot? Can you tell us with utmost certainty that nobody in MI prefers Obama? Can you tell us with the utmost certainty that if the election had counted that the outcome wouldn't have been completely different?

The answer is no, you can't That's why the DNC frowns on states breaking the rules. Because it creates this screwed up mess. Hillary has no more rights to these delegates than anyone else. Because they do not and never have counted.

[cali]

56. Who pledged not to participate? And sorry, putting your name

on the ballot is participating. here's a hint: Obliterate.

[AZBlue]

64. Right. We should punish the person who played by the rules & reward the one that broke them.

Good plan!

[PBS Poll-435]

68. Has there ever been any ruling from the DNC that said candidates HAD to take their names off?

Didn't think so.

[Hola]

65. it was

Kucinich, atleast he tried. Like 6 out of 8 Dems in the race.

It's almost embarrassing that Clinton, national icon for 16 years, couldn't get more that 55% against 'uncommitted'.

[PBS Poll-435]

66. Conyer's radio ads didn't help things....

[LoZoccolo]

3. But people don't have to worry about going in Michigan to vote because it's not gonna count!

This is per Hillary.

[Max_powers94]

5. They are not going to listen to Hillary. Don't worry about it.

[rodeodance]

36. you are foolish to say that

[housewolf]

9. Yeah well... 45% of the voters voted for "not Hillary"

so who does she think those delegates should go to? They've already told her "not you".

[GoesTo11]

10. It depends on the reason

If the reason Obama got 0% of the votes is that he took his name off the ballot. And if the reason he took his name off the ballot was that the DNC said there would be no delegates and that candidates should not be in this election.

Then why would anyone in their right mind expect that this reflects anything at all related to how real delegates should be apportioned?

If it were a contested election, and he campaigned and got 0% - like Alf Landon in his 9th campaign or something - then sure, 0% would be fine.

Unfortunately for Hillary, it was the former. How can this possibly count for delegates when it was run with the explicit ruling that it wouldn't?

[zulchzulu]

12. Hey, Obama got 0% in Harlem too...so yunno...it could be true...

:sarcasm:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/16/nyregion/16vote.html

[NotThisTime]

22. I wonder what they ever did about that?

[janetblond]

17. HIS NAME WASN'T on the ballot!

so what do you expect?
The Clinton's dirty work .. AGAIN.
That bitch wouldn't get my vote if she paid me $1 million dollars.
Fk the DNC for being so stupid.

[Rosemary2205]

19. Anyone seriously making that argument needs a brain scan.

[zanne]

24. The only Dems on the ballot in Michigan were...

Hillary
Kucinich
Dodd
Gravel
uncommitted

Edwards, Obama, Richardson and Biden had their names taken off the ballot to follow the DNC rules.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22054151/

[Scooter24]

27. I'd love to hear the Clinton campaign in front of the rules committee

trying to explain that it was intent of the voters for awarding 0 delegates to Obama.

She's going to get absolutely trashed in the news.

[Labors of Hercules]

71. I'm kinda waitin fer that myself.

:popcorn:

[lojasmo]

77. It'll be on c span. EOM

[hfojvt]

28. especially since the same people making it

made sure that many of the uncommitted delegates were Hillary supporters.

[AtomicKitten]

37. Some Clinton people have lost all sense of fair play in Clinton's demented push for the WH.

[IndianaGreen]

43. 44% percent of the Michigan vote was against Hillary

so they could apportion the uncommitted to the candidates that were running at the time, Biden, Edwards, Dodd, Kucinich, Obama.

Many Democrats stayed home or voted in the GOP primary to derail Romney.

[papapi]

44. As TahitiNut has so 'eloquently' pointed out. THERE ARE NO PLEDGED DELEGATES.....

....in Michigan because the primary was invalid. Thank you for making this clear days ago TahitiNut.

[Labors of Hercules]

55. yet another valid reason for impeachment.

:thumbsup:

[TahitiNut]

63. Thank you. papapi ... my voice is getting hoarse yelling at idiots that don't get it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6159157

[spanone]

48. he played by the rules and kept his name off the ballot and didn't campaign there

[grantcart]

49. Actually I think Obama owes them some votes from other states

[Zachstar]

54. AMEN!!!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

62. why did she run when she had agreed not to?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

67. Tell me the history on this. Why did she leave her name on and the

others not? Sounds funky to me.

[Hola]

69. If Clinton had removed her name

then they're wouldn't be a problem, isn't that ironic? The Delegates, all of them uncommitted would have been seated at the convention - they would in effect be superdelegates (with either 1 or 1/2 vote). There would be no hula or fuss about 'fair', 'equitable' or anything. But Clinton kept her name on the ballot, and thus the mess...

[Labors of Hercules]

73. absolutely true.

100%

[polichick]

74. Or impeached for just being an idiot.

[muryan]

76. People seem to forget voter intent from the 2000 GE

If voter intent is clear, then votes should count. The metric used to calculate and designate that I leave to the DNC lawyers. Regardless, soviet style elections should not be legitimized.