So, was the right wing media correct about Hillary throughout the 90s?

[joshcryer]

She was a lying shrill evil mongering satan she woman throughout the 90s. I guess it was all true?

Discuss.

PS she'll be conceeding next week, gracefully. And all of the evil people who talked shit about a somewhat socially inept politician will never see how evil they were.

[lastliberalintexas]

1. I have come to the conclusion that some of the more vocal bashers

were republicans during the 90s, so yeah, they probably believed everything written about the Clintons back then.

I disagree with Clinton on any number of policy issues, but I can't say I ever thought her or her husband evil. But then I've also never thought of Obama in that way either. It's just amazing to me the amount of hate emanating from the supposed left in this country. It was one thing when it was anger directed at the Bush administration, it's another when it's pure dee old hatred directed at a candidate on a personal level.

[jobycom]

2. Nope, and DU is not right about her now. nt

[joshcryer]

16. Remember when she got booed after 9/11? The hate against Hillary goes very deep.

And it's due to the right wing media almost 100%.

[seaglass]

19. And Obama supporters. Sickening. n/t

[joshcryer]

24. I gotta find that video. It made *no sense* because she got elected by popular majority.

There was *nothing* that made sense about her being booed when she attended that thing.

The only thing that makes sense is that people were aware of the media bullshit in the 90s and something just clicked in their irrational brains. I mean, sure, we'll vote for you Hillary, but oh, wait, we'll tell you to GTFO if we think you're in the way.

[Kool Kitty]

80. I never understood that either.

[bettyellen]

93. she was perceived to be anti the "rush to war" not hawkish enuf for the NY firemen + cops

plus they are a fairly sexist RW demographiv for NYC. Funny huh?

[VolcanoJen]

84. Riiiiiight. As if life as we know it was suspended when Bill Clinton left the White House.

Do you really believe we've been in suspended animation, holding our breaths for seven solid years until Hillary emerged to rescue us??

I agree that it was bad form to boo her, but the rest of it.. please. I spent years of my life defending the Clintons and I'm just plain done.

It's not that she's in the way. It's that someone else blew past her, and she's having difficulty reconciling that reality.

[dailykoff]

85. No, but she deserved it if she did.

Colluding in the fake war on terror is a game for bushrats.

[BeatleBoot]

3. These days DU is as wrong as Newt Gingrich and Henry Hyde was then

[texastoast]

61. No, not DU

A bunch of foolish posters, trolls most of them. But also a lot of Obama supporters who don't understand the game yet. Newbies. You have to just keep explaining things to them and to the Hill zealots as well.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seaglass]

17. Do you have any shame? n/t

[Why Syzygy]

20. I guess you'd like to give me some?

No thanks. Keep it yourself.

[seaglass]

27. What you said was truly disgusting. n/t

[Why Syzygy]

29. I'm not the only one who sees this.

I've seen things that make my stomach turn around here as well. It's a bloody battle zone. What do you expect?

[seaglass]

38. I don't expect to hear the term feminazi on a Democratic message

board. A thread with feminazi in the title got locked just last week - as well it should have.

[Why Syzygy]

47. I don't expect

people to be putting up polls on the BEST SCENARIO for the Democratic candidate to lose in 2008!
I don't expect people to take glee in holding the nation hostage like a bunch of terrorists in training!

Expectations are a BITCH!

I never would have used that word two months ago. NEVER.
When we say Clinton has HURT women's causes, we are RIGHTEOUS SERIOUS.

[MethuenProgressive]

94. Rush Limbaugh's "feminazi" is one of his most parroted by the ditto-heads slur.

The ignorance needed to mouth that stupidity is monumental.

[joshcryer]

42. If female voters voted in a bloc as you are exaggerating here, then she'd be the nominee at this...

...juncture. You're pointing out the behavior of a small subset of her supporters while neglecting the overall effect of her candidacy.

[Lyric]

72. WTF?

Anybody who uses a Limbaugh-coined phrase to describe a female Democratic leader and a former First Lady of this nation is NO Democrat. You might be an Obama supporter, but apparently you have no fucking idea what it actually means to be a Democrat--none. I see a lot of that these days.

You think Rush called that one right, huh? Well I think Cheney phrased this one right: go fuck yourself.

Most sincerely,
One "feminIST"

[Why Syzygy]

73. I'm not a Democrat. Independent.

And yes, Obama is my candidate. I'm a free agent so I answer to No One. And yeah, you'll be seeing A LOT of that around!

Don't you feel that B Clinton validated Rush by appearing on his show? I'm sure FOX will help you all defend HR Clinton.
No worries.

[Occam Bandage]

5. In order, Yes yes no no no no yes.

[joshcryer]

6. All politicians are lying shills.

Just so we're on the right page.

[John Q. Citizen]

7. No, they ignored all the things the left were pissed at her about. They never once

criticized her for cutting the grassroots out of the health care debate, for instance.

They never criticized her for NAFTA or for kicking poor women off welfare. Or at least gaining experience by helping her husband do that.

Sen. Clinton has done some very good things, and made some good votes I agree with. They usually bash her for those things.

They didn't complain much about her pro-IWR vote though.

I hope Senator Clinton concedes gracefully next week and rolls up her sleeves and works hard to get Obama elected. That would be awesome.

[joshcryer]

9. She will, and if my other prediction comes true, most of you will explode in a ball...

...a ball of contridiction. :)

[mrbluto]

67. We know the last thing that exploding ball would be composed of.

contrition.

I can hear the faint praise, left-handed complements and non-apologies rev-ing up alrerady.

[joshcryer]

12. BTW, please enlighten me about this "90s grassroots" movement you speak of.

[John Q. Citizen]

32. I never said "90s" I said grassroots. They started organizing in the 80s and were

in fact instrumental to the Clinton's election in 1992.

Groups like Citizen Action/Fair Share, religious social justice groups, womens groups, Seniors groups, many different local state and national groups worked for major reform and for a health care system that would be affordable and accessible by all Americans.

There are tons of articles and references, but the article I linked to is a pretty good place to start.

http://www.counterpunch.org/navarro11122007.html

[joshcryer]

52. You're simply wrong, if there was a grassroots campaign in the 90s it was Jerry Brown, not Clinton.

Clinton's plan then was like Obama's plan now (not in form, but in presentation). It was intended to get *passed* in a corporate-centric environment. Obama has concessions for insurance companies (no mandate for instance), and Hillary faultily conceeded to their demands in the 90s.

Single payer was impossible then as it is now. But somehow "progressives" are all for Obama's plan while he himself said single payer isn't possible. It's quite a stark contrast.

[John Q. Citizen]

99. Yes, all progressives seem to be lining up behind Obama. There is a reason for that. Meanwhile,

Sen Clinton has the loyalty of the DLC, and they have lined up behind her.

There is a reason for that also.

See if you can guess what the reasons are?

[ruby slippers]

8. I don't know, but the Illuminati Conspiracy tinfoils sure were......

[Milo_Bloom]

10. She voted for the war.. that was pretty damn evil.

[joshcryer]

14. If you read her speech there was nothing evil in her motivations.

Nothing at all.

[Milo_Bloom]

25. Lying in her speech was inherently evil.

[joshcryer]

28. What did she lie about?

I assure you that you don't want to go down this road with me, because you will be obliterated. I have gone over this a hundred times before.

Show me what she lied about in her speech.

[Milo_Bloom]

88. *SIGH*

And you don't want to go down this road with me, because I have obliterated anyone who has tried and I have done this hundreds of times... probably with you.

http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html


Lie #1. the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program

Lie #2. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members

Lie #3. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons

Lie #3.5 Now this much is undisputed.

I say 3.5, because the above 1-3 are lies and then 3.5 claims that 1-3 are true, which although a lie is an extension of the same lie. Plenty of evidence that existed at the time, INCLUDING AN ACTUAL WEAPONS INSPECTOR stated the above 3 not to be true... so even if you want to falsely claim that 1-3 are true, #3.5 is not, as Scott Ritter disputed 1-3 openly and in public. So you either have 3 lies or 1 lie... either way... Clinton lied.

She compounded her lies by later claiming the vote was about inspections, which was another lie, as Hussein had already agreed to the unconditional return of inspectors.

Just more Clinton lies.

[Captain Hilts]

33. She specified it was not a vote to invade Iraq OR capture Hussein. too complicated for some folks.

[cbc5g]

50. She may have said that, but in reality it was a vote to give Bush authority and thats a vote for war

She knew what Bush wanted, shes not that stupid.

[joshcryer]

54. No it wasn't. Bush had the authority to invade and was going to invade with or without congress.

Simple. Hillary even says so in her speech. We were still at war with Iraq, we still implemented a no-fly zone, the UN resolution was still in effect (no declaration of peace). These things are really simple to understand and I got into a lot of crap here in 2002-2003 for pointing out what Bush was doing.

[cbc5g]

68. Read it

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/21/iraq.hillary/


"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said she is not sorry she voted for a resolution authorizing President Bush to take military action in Iraq despite the recent problems there but she does regret "the way the president used the authority."

To the disappointment of some antiwar liberals in her Democratic base, Clinton, the former first lady, voted in favor of the Iraq war resolution in October 2002.

"Obviously, I've thought about that a lot in the months since," she said. "No, I don't regret giving the president authority because at the time it was in the context of weapons of mass destruction, grave threats to the United States, and clearly, Saddam Hussein had been a real problem for the international community for more than a decade.""

She had a choice to stand with the millions of progressives who said NO..NO WAR MR PRESIDENT

She had a choice to apologize along with Kerry and Edwards

She stood with Bush and NOT with us.

[Milo_Bloom]

97. They never read it.

They don't pay attention to what she actually said in her floor speech, how she claimed Hussein gave aid and conformt to Al Qaeda... they ignore that Scott Ritter was publically saying it was all lies.. they ignore the conflicting reports that existed at the time.

They don't take the time to read the IWR and see that it is a vote for war on its face with no prerequisites required.

[rwheeler31]

11. No, she is fine,her advisor's gotta go.

[DerekJ]

13. The Clintons then, are not the Clintons now. They allowed themselves to be corrupted.

[joshcryer]

15. I assure you that Hillary is the same somewhat socially inept person she was back then.

She'll always be fucking up in speeches, be saying the wrong thing. She's basically a geek, and when you're a geek your whole life it's hard to get out of that personality.

[Why Syzygy]

23. Clinton has potential.

But she is in the wrong arena.

[Barack_America]

18. No, they were not correct about her. nt

[QC]

21. There are lots of undercover freepers running around DU right now, it seems.

That is, at least, my preferred explanation for all of the 1990s right wing trash floating around this place now.

It's either that or a lot of so-called "progressives" actually believe all this shit, and that's not something I particularly want to think about.

[KAZ]

34. Ease back, will ya. It's the end of a historic primary.

What the hell did you expect?

[jillan]

22. From your post, I do believe that the rw media is here, right now, on DU.

[joshcryer]

26. Are you calling me a right winger or the responses?

I'm quite confused.

[KAZ]

35. Come on pirhana. You're better than this.

[jillan]

43. Ya know - I think Hillary is a great lady. I have alot of respect for her.

And to read garbage like this, what else am I suppose to think?

[KAZ]

53. Just take it with a grain of salt. I'm pretty proud of the Dems..

.. voting both of our candidates to the top. It brings a tear to my eye, and hope, that we'll finally rid our shores of the FUCKING CHIMP.

Sorry. A little too emotional there.

[tularetom]

30. Socially inept - you nailed it

She lacks the personal charisma and people skills necessary for a successful politician. She is a bookish introverted policy wonk more suited to work behind the scenes than to assume any sort of administrative role. They have tried to make her into something she wasn't. She is not Bill Clinton and never will be. That isn't totally bad mind you but she is just not a people person.

[joshcryer]

39. Yeah, I see nothing wrong with saying that, it's not an insult, it's an observation.

Even Bush is better at her at being a social person, as impossibly hard as it is for me to say that.

The problem I think is is that we have expected charasmatic people for too long that we have lost sight of what it takes to be a good thinker. A leader needn't be the best at social parties, they need be best at figuring out good policy decisions. And I think in that respect Hillary's policy decisions are far better than Obama's.

[KAZ]

31. No. She was right back then. Times (and people) change.

She screwed up the health care issue, but she was spot on inre VRWC.

[lastliberalintexas]

36. She didn't screw up the healthcare issue, the public bought into the insurance campaign

God, do some people have fucking labotomies at the end of every decade? The insurance industry's Harry and Louise campaign screwed up healthcare, no Dem did.

[KAZ]

37. I understand the insurance fucks helped torpedo it, but success..

.. is measured by getting a bill passed. Didn't happen, and we still don't have it.

I'll leave it there.

[joshcryer]

40. Obama's plan puts money in the pockets of insurance companies, though. She's still sticking to it.

Her plan is still saying "fuck you insurance companies." They hate that. Obama is a centrist trying to play on both sides of the table, placating corporate interests while trying to misguidingly fix the problem.

[KAZ]

45. How does mandatory insurance say fuck you to insurance companies?

As far as I'm concerned, both of their plans are shit.

[joshcryer]

55. Because it creates an unnatural government monopoly on insurance.

It basically says "look you must have insurance, the best insurer is the government, stfu to the for profit insurers."

[lastliberalintexas]

56. So what exactly has Obama steered through Congress?

If that is the measure of success, enacting legislation, on what basis is your support of Obama founded? I actually don't hold his "inexperience" against him, but I know others sometimes do, and it is potentially a valid point. The man hasn't really pushed a single, substantive piece of legislation through Congress.

He's been a sitting Senator for 3 years, so why hasn't he even introduced healthcare reform initiatives? (same could be said for Clinton- but hey, I favored Kucinich over these anyway)

[KAZ]

63. Don't like his plan either.

Times are changing. I'm beginning to think we might get more through Congress than we expected.

[lastliberalintexas]

64. I certainly hope so, but I am the eternal pessimist so still unsure

:)

[KAZ]

41. Like a scab, I can't leave it alone. Harry and Louise did not..

.. kill the thing on their own. Hill's secrecy, and unwillingness to compromise with other Dems, doomed it. Does not work well WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

[lastliberalintexas]

51. No, I was working in DC at that time

The vast majority of Dems were fully supporting Clinton, publicly and privately. The insurance industry, right wing media, and medical providers acted in concert to kill any real health care reform in the early 90s. Just as they have for the last 30 years, and just as they will band together to fight it in the next several years too. The "secrecy" allegations originated with the insurers.

Blame it on Clinton all you want, but it's failure really didn't have anything to do with her or ANY Democrat. :shrug:

[KAZ]

62. Well, I'll take your word for it on this issue, but I'm all about success.

If someone could explain to me how we, as the "richest country in the world", do not have UHC, then I'm all ears.

It's a lack of leadership. It's a lack of imagination. It's getting lead by wolves in sheep's clothing.

[joshcryer]

57. Yes, compromise with other Dems on what? Single payer?

Please be realistic here. Even Obama doesn't think single payer is possible now, if it isn't now, how could it have been then (see: Regan Democrats)?

[KAZ]

66. Yes, I think single payer is becoming more and more realistic.

And I think Obama might push for it if he has a strong mandate. Might be hard to sell in the GE, but most folks I know are ready for it. And most folks I know have insurance, and are quite well off.

It's worth a shot.

[cbc5g]

44. If she ran a decent campaign and didn't vote for the war and stood up for Dems instead of trashing..

I would have voted for her. She and Bill have changed since Bush became elected. They turned DLC conservative. So now the RW hate machine loves her (they wouldnt if she were ahead) and progressive dems (most) dont. You cannot win a Dem primary without progressive Dem support. It's that simple.

[joshcryer]

59. Actually, her policy decisions are far more liberal than Obama's.

It's quite puzzling to hear someone call her a DLC conservative when you consider where they stand. Just because Obama has "grassroots support" does not magically mean his policies support the interests of the people.

[Why Syzygy]

77. We know where the DLC stands. Lying about it doesn't change it.

It's quite puzzling to see Clinton supporters WHO JUST CAN'T QUIT SPINNING.

[Major Hogwash]

46. Mostly. Her silence on the insane rantings of Geraldine Ferraro is most telling.

And I'm not kidding one fucking bit.

[iamthebandfanman]

48. nah

it was a gradual change.

power corrupts and all that.

[joshcryer]

58. No, I'm pretty sure she was just not good at the PR, then, and now. And that bites you in the ass...

...in politics. Perceptions are often better than ideas.

As our current PoTUS* has shown.

[iamthebandfanman]

89. sorry, i dont agree

i think she honestly either changed as a person, OR the way she held herself and acted in the 90s was a front.

im sorry but they wanted Al to lose in 2000 so they could get this chance.

the fact she wont leave the race when shes clearly lost (going by the system) is good evidence of that.


there was a since of entitlement...not because shes white... n not because shes a woman... but because shes been a big political player whos husband was president for 8 years.

typically someone with that close ties to politics and a president who was LOVED for 8 years would GUARANTEE a victory.

[Marrah_G]

49. It's bizarro world, where Clintons are evil and Hagel is touted as VP material

Up is down, left is right............

[Warren DeMontague]

75. The Clintons aren't evil, and if ANYONE sticks an anti-choice GOP ginkus like Hagel on the ticket,

I walk.

You want to talk about bizarro world? I've seen griping on DU that could come straight from FOX NEWS, shit about "latte liberals" "prius drivers" and "liberal elites" and "san francisco (wink wink) liberals" I've seen alleged Democrats sneer at youthful idealism, and I've seen them spit the word "hope" off their lips like they just took a drink of cat pee. (This, after Bill Clinton was "the man from Hope", who still believed "in a place called Hope." go figure)

I've seen "Democrats" talk about guns and white voters like they just walked out of a John Birch meeting. I've seen allegedly pro-choice Hillary supporters crank the outrage machine to 11 about how "How DARE YOU call unplanned pregnancies punishment!!!!!!!!!"

Yeah, I've seen some weird shit. I'm ready for it to be over. Fortunately, soon, we will have a nominee, and it will be time to focus on beating John McCain.

[Marrah_G]

76. I agree with you- I hate all the nastiness from all sides

[Kool Kitty]

81. Hear, hear.

What you said.

[Spider Jerusalem]

60. Straw man.

[joshcryer]

65. How so? I'm asking about then. Not now.

Nor am I correlating to any significant extent the behavior of people now as contrasted with then (except for the incident after 9/11 which was inexplicible).

[Spider Jerusalem]

71. Context and implication.

And I think it's a bit more than social ineptitude (arrogance and entitlement aren't 'social ineptitude').

[jsmirman]

69. The Clintons have serious problems with truth and ethics

this was true then and it's true now. And I was clear back then that I would not try to talk my way around the mistruths of the Clintons. They have good qualities, as well- unfortunately, these twin weaknesses are pretty damaging and frequently undermining.

[billyoc]

70. No, they were always completely full of shit when it came to Hillary, calling her a "leftist".

What BULLSHIT.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. No. Was I wrong, when I spent all that time defending her in the 90s?

Or did I only turn into a misogynist, unhinged, frothy-mouthed Hillary hater coincidentally about the same time she entered the senate and made the extremely unlikely transmogrification into a WAR HAWK. (Hillary Clinton- the woman who spoke so eloquently about Vietnam at Wellesley- a fucking HAWK! Who saw that coming?)

Yes, I must have secretly hated her all though the 90s, even as I defended the Clintons with every bone in my body from the likes of Richard Mellon-Scaife, Hillary's new pal. Truly, it couldn't have anything to do with her vote for the IWR, her steadfast refusal to this day to admit that vote was a mistake (even now, when even Scott fucking McClellan admits the war was a bad idea)

... I guess I musta just been out to get her, the whole time.

Only now, now that she's threatening to tear the Democratic Party apart with scorched-Earth bullshit all the way to the convention, when she's got shilling hypocrites like Terry "The Rules are the Rules" McAuliffe going on cable to try to claim that enforcing DNC primary scheduling rules is tantamount to disenfranchisement, jim crow, and slavery rolled into one... does my innate, unfair animus against Hillary Clinton, that I evidently shared with the right wing all this time, rear its ugly head.

Weird, huh?

:eyes:

You know? I hope you're right. I think if you are, and she concedes gracefully next week, most of the animosity towards her will evaporate. I think people are angry because she has set things up to make it look like she intends to keep these shenanigans going until the convention, our party's chances in November be damned.

[Why Syzygy]

78. Excellent post!

:thumbsup:

[iconicgnom]

91. good reply

[mrreowwr_kittty]

79. Socially inept? Who are you talking about? Hillary?

She seems pretty socially ept to me. :shrug:

[eridani]

82. No. Never, ever repeat Repuke talking points against any Dem

--even if said Dem repeats them against other Dems. Just. Don't. Do. It!

[JohnnyLib2]

83. The RW media was not correct, but apparently very persuasive.

Sad to say.

[SlipperySlope]

86. No concessions coming - She's taking it to Denver in August.

[Yukari Yakumo]

87. At this point, I just don't know anymore. {nt}

uguu

[iconicgnom]

90. This is about her campaign in 2008, not what happened in the '90s

[MethuenProgressive]

92. DU has become an echo chamber for the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy reunion.

It's really sad to read 'Vince Foster','Monica', 'travelgate', et al still being pimped.
Pimped *here* for the love God...

[Julius Civitatus]

95. I'n recent days i've seen "Vince Foster", "Clinton Body Count", "Travelgate"...

...and every other bullshit anti-Clinton, right-wing manufactured scandal from the 90s used here at DU!
And used by alleged "Democrats" against the Clintons.

It makes me ill. Either "anything goes" when it comes to hating the Clintons, or a Republican Freeper moles are really having the time of their lives in these forums.

[LoZoccolo]

96. I don't think she killed Vince Foster, but now I actually do think she would be capable of it.

Before you go alerting: you asked a question and I gave you an answer. Don't set up a speed trap bait people into getting their posts deleted.

[ebitze]

98. No, but

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
--Friedrich Nietzsche