McCain's Vietnamese Jailer says he was never tortured

[Number23]

Weirdest article I've ever read.... Former jailer supports McCain for President, but says he was never tortured.

From ABC (Australian Broadcasting Company):

"REPUBLICAN US presidential candidate John McCain has got some unexpected support from his former Vietnam War jailer, who said he would vote for the former navy pilot if he could.

Speaking to the BBC from Haiphong, Tran Trong Duyet also insisted that Senator McCain's assertions that he was tortured during his time at the prison were lies, and that no one held there was ever subjected to torture."

From - http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23913409-5012572,00.html

BBC article here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7459946.stm

:wtf: doesn't even begin to explain it....

[Nickster]

1. Sorry Mr. Duyet, our pilots were most certainly tortured in the Hanoi Hilton.

[WeDidIt]

3. I'm figuring Duyet is using the new and improved definition of torture

as created by the Bush administration.

so under the Bush doctrine, there was no torture, only "enhanced interrogation techniques".

[Nickster]

5. Ahhh, excellent point. Thanks for the clarification. I have such a pre-9/11 mindset.

[MrModerate]

2. This is not only completely wacky . . .

But perilously close to swiftboating. We don't need to go there. McCain's service doesn't need to be attacked for him to lose -- it's what he's done in the 40 years since Vietnam that disqualifies him for the office he's seeking.

[Number23]

4. The difference is...

I don't believe there are any shadowy Democratic operatives paying Mr. Duyet to say these things. I thought the same thing ("he's being swiftboated!") for about two seconds when I read this. But it's not the same thing.

I do question the timing of this, though. Where has Mr. Duyet been for the last 30 years???

[MrModerate]

6. Ahh! Your definition of "swiftboating" is more precise than mine . . .

I just meant "telling lies about a politician's wartime service" rather than "manufacturing lies as part of an explicit (Scaife-funded, Rove-led) campaign tactic."

And who knows there *aren't* shadowy operatives in the background? If one is paranoid enough, one could see this as a preemptive strike by the McCain campaign to tarnish Obama's image by calling him out as a swiftboater.

[Number23]

7. Got ya....

I just meant "telling lies about a politician's wartime service" rather than "manufacturing lies as part of an explicit (Scaife-funded, Rove-led) campaign tactic."

In times like these, when the military is put on these pedestals as the only thing protecting everyman and woman from the unspeakable evils in the world, any smear of a warrior's "honor" does seem to pack the most punch, huh??

And who knows there *aren't* shadowy operatives in the background?

Who knows indeed??? The timing of all this and the man's statements.... this is all just a little weird....

[tkmorris]

9. But IS it a lie?

I'm not prepared to say that it is, just on the weight of "he was at the Hanoi Hilton, therefore he was tortured". I need evidence.

Of course it would seem there is no way to prove one way or another what conditions were like during McCain's captivity, and questioning the official line would no doubt wake up a great deal of incipient patriotism amongst the voting populace. Misplaced and misguided patriotism to be sure, but I fear the net effect would be negative.

[Number23]

12. Excellent question

But IS it a lie?

Mr Duyet is quoted as saying: "But I can confirm to you that we never tortured him. We never tortured any prisoners."

Is the Vietnamese government trying to re-write history? And to what purpose?

[Marrah_G]

23. Go to a POW/MIA gathering and tell them about the spiffy article you found...........

claiming they weren't tortured. And then mention that you might even believe their former captors.

Let's just see how that goes.

[Number23]

44. Can you read?

This article states that ONE man, his former jailer, says that they didn't torture prisoners there. And as I've noted and has been noted by others, there is a very good chance that man is delusional or lying through his teeth. There is no corroborative reporting by either the BBC or anyone else that supports his claims that no prisoners were tortured, because it is common knowledge the prisoners there were tortured.

The BBC is merely reporting this man's claims. Would have been good of them to have a side article where they note that the likelihood of this being true is slim to nil, but they don't.

So, show me in this thread where I say or agree that McCain wasn't ever tortured. You've got your righteous indignation undies all tangled up at the wrong person.

[karynnj]

36. The reason many deny there was torture at Gitmo or Abu Graib

No country wants to say they totured. This in fact may be proof that torture is wrong at a very basic level.

[qazplm]

19. come on

this has nothing to do with patriotism.

You are never going to get "evidence" other than the words of the men that underwent it.

What "evidence" do you have that every last single one of them was lying? What about the silence and in some cases nonsilence of the Vietnamese?

One guy comes along and you are willing to say it might not have ever happened?

Seems to me like your skepticism only flows one way.

[flpoljunkie]

47. Altho McCain broke both arms and a leg in the crash, he was indeed tortured, immediately!

[shadowknows69]

8. This is not where we want to go against McCain

[C_U_L8R]

10. By the republican definition of torture

he's right, McCain wasn't tortured

[AllentownJake]

11. If we need to question his honor

Talk about his first wife and his behavior when he got home towards her.

This is out of bounds in my opinion. Attacking a POW on his story of imprisonment when it is backed up by many other POWs will win us no friends, voters, or respect.

The Viet Cong treated our prisoners with the same respect that we treated theirs.

[Number23]

13. So are you saying...

that the BBC and the ABC (who are the ones reporting this story. Not me, or some pajama-clad blogger, or some DNC-affiliated organization) should NOT do any reporting or investigating of this story?

[dems_rightnow]

45. Yes, I'd say that.

Torture at the Hanoi Hilton is well-documented. So when one crackpot 30 years later says it didn't happen, I'd dismiss it without a second thought.

[Number23]

48. Okay

I can dismiss it, but that certainly does not mean it won't be news. This is the BBC. Their stories are taken very seriously.

I question the timing and even the validity of the story, but I certainly don't question its newsworthiness. We should definitely know in the coming months whether the American news media considers this a news story as well.

[dems_rightnow]

56. Question the validity but not the newsworthiness?

If you question the validity, then sort of by definition you have concern that it's "made up". Which is almost certainly the case.

If it's fiction, it's not newsworthy.

[Number23]

60. I question the validity of the man's statements

But there is no question that a man who served as one of McCain's captors saying that John McCain was not tortured in Vietnam is news. That goes without saying. And I think any news pieces that prove that what he's saying is not true are equally newsworthy.

When George Bush says he's committed to American civil liberties or bringing down gas prices, there is no question that this is news. Is it true? I seriously doubt it.

[HeeBGBz]

30. Or his writing off remaining POW's to normalize relations in Vietnam

http://www.newsweek.com/id/94827

This is why McCain has lost a shitload of support from veterans.

[sandnsea]

58. That is just crap

We have found the remains of numerous soldiers due to normalization. There were no POW's left in Vietnam. It is a myth.

[old mark]

14. Right. And the NVA never killed thousands of people

in HUE. it was the brutal Americans.(sarcasm)
The Vietnamese (then the North Vietnamese) were fucking liars then, and they are no better now.


mark

[comtec]

15. The kind of torture Mcsame went through is easy enough to detect

and I believe it's been well proven medically that what he said was done to him WAS done to him.

I agree, we can blast this asshole on MANY other things, but this is not one, nor would I even want it to BE one.

[bunkerbuster1]

16. Right, and zhere has never been an eshcape from Stalag 13!

I'm sure the official party-line response to questions about torturing American POWs is that "no one was ever subjected to torture." He's probably repeated this line dozens of times. Why is it strange that he'd say it again when asked?

It's not atypical for people to compartmentalize unpleasant things, to fudge the facts. I suspect that a lot of what this man says about McCain is true. Just not the stuff that's difficult to face up to, all these years later.

[JVS]

17. Our government officials make similar claims about our prisoners

[Number23]

18. Excellent point

Our government officials make similar claims about our prisoners

Nicely said. But this man had to realize the consequences of his statement during a presidential election year, particularly as he gave the "I support McCain for President" part of his statement. Perhaps as one poster suggested earlier, this is all part of some pre-emptive swiftboat. Who the hell knows anymore?

[crankychatter]

20. I ain't readin' it - did he bond with his captive? opposite of Stockholm Syndrome? NT

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jakem]

24. what are you alerting and shaming exactly?

[Marrah_G]

27. Here are my thoughts

I have to say that this post being allowed to stay up makes me think twice about DU in general.

Is this really the road we want to go down, to question whether or not all the freed POWs were liars and frauds on the word of one NVA guard? To insinuate that maybe the guard is telling the truth.

This is obviously someone attempting to make DU look like anti-soldier (different then anti-war) assholes.

There is plenty to go after McCain about. But to incite rumors based on the word of someone who claims to be his former captor, especially with the permanent injuries he sustained and the length of time he was held, is really almost unforgivable.

It is a slap in the face to every soldier who survived those camps and a real disrespect to the ones who never came home at all.

[goldcanyonaz]

28. Bravo!

[Number23]

41. What in God's name are you talking about?

Why are some of you incapable of understanding that this is a NEWS article, written by the BBC, one of the world's preeminent news organizations and reported on by other reputable international news organizations??

Some of y'all are acting as if I wrote the damn story myself! This didn't come from Fox or something similar. This did not come from ihatejohnmccain.org. This is not part of some smear campaign, as far as I know anyway. I've stated at least 5 times in this thread that this is a bizarre article with strange timing, but unlike alot of stuff that gets 200 recommendations and replies on DU, at least it is NEWS. If you think the BBC is wrong to report on this, blast them!

I have to say that this post being allowed to stay up makes me think twice about DU in general.

I feel the same way about yours. Perhaps if I'd created a thread talking about Cindy's numerous and obvious plastic surgeries that would been considered more appropriate.

[Marrah_G]

49. They would both be inappropriate

You didn't write it, but you posted it.

[Number23]

51. Well, thankfully for us all

Neither your nor I determine what's appropriate around here.

The admins and moderators do. And they apparently are pretty good at telling the difference between flame-bait and a (semi) legitimate news story.

[Number23]

43. Oh, and here we go!

This is obviously someone attempting to make DU look like anti-soldier (different then anti-war) assholes.

The obligatory "s/he has less than 41,000 posts, therefore s/he MUST be a troll!!" bullsh*t. There may be someone on this thread making DU look bad, but it damn sure ain't me. Get down off your high horse. That view is MUCH too high for you.

[ToeBot]

22. Hey, the United States doesn't torture either! (wink, wink) nt

[goldcanyonaz]

25. This is not a path I want to go down, too many other ways to attack McCain

He served his country honorably just like Kerry did

[AlCzervik]

26. that AU headline is pretty strange.

[Renew Deal]

29. I don't buy it.

And I don't think this should be discussed barring any real proof.

[JudyInTheHeartland]

31. Yes, McCain was tortured

And tragically, it has had long-term consequences for him. He seems full of rage and short on control. Not the type of guy we need in the WH now. That needs to be our argument.

[demokatgurrl]

32. Yeah, but isn't that what our non-torturers in Gitmo say? n/t

[Blue_In_AK]

33. Maybe he uses the same definition for torture

that George Bush does.

[cbayer]

34. This makes me more than a little queasy.

I don't think we should go there.

[karynnj]

35. Former POW camp jailers for truth??

McCain has severe restrictions on how much he can move his arms. There are many stories that people were tortured.

[Smear Talk Express]

37. I don't believe it...

But that being said, it's trivial compared to the number of Vietnamese killed during the French and American occupation of their fatherland.

[pwb]

38. Don't go there? Says Karl Rove

After all the pukes did to our two Nam vets we are suppose to sit back and listen to the lies about a fake hero? bullshit. everything is on the table.

[AngryOldDem]

39. So, he broke his own arms twice, and reset them? n/t

[Disturbed]

40. John McCain embraces GW Bush & his failed policies.

The short list

Iraq,

Top end tax cuts

Privatization of Social Security

Unraveling employer based health care,

Cuban embargo.

Illegal Spying on Americans

Busholini Policy of Torture

Veto of new GI Bill

Offshore oil drilling

Denying Habeous Corpus

[Major Hogwash]

42. Well, according to McCain's definition of torture, this Tran guy is correct!!

Because McCain doesn't think that the US is torturing people at GITMO either.

It's good to see 2 old former foes like Tran and McCain patch things up between themselves, don't ya think?

hahahahahaha!!

[KingFlorez]

46. I wouldn't think they would necessarily be truthful

But then again, who knows if McCain is truthful either? It's hard to know who to believe.

[PM7nj]

50. Then why are McCain's arms and hands are totally deformed and don't move.

:eyes:

[TheDonkey]

52. Is this the new swift boaters? Vietcong Captures for Truth???

[Raine]

53. That's just CRAP

that we don't need to get into, no need to stoop to swiftboat low levels. I just don't go for attacking McSAME on this kind of thing, it's just too low and also very STUPID.

[kevinmc]

54. That Guys sounds like GW Bush ......

Likes and backs McCain and doesn't know what torture is.

[1Hippiechick]

55. Quite a difference between the two articles: Australian article omits the caution mentioned in BBC

[yardwork]

57. Does this mean that McCain lied about his Purple Hearts? Some people say...

Note - I'm sure that McCain was in fact tortured while he was a POW. I'm still angry about the horrible people who spread lies about John Kerry during his campaign.

[DearAbby]

59. I am sure he would have said

"Yeah, We tortured the hell out of all the pilots" with no statue of limitations on war crimes....


just saying.