I adore Dean, and admire his organization. Then Clark appeared!

[librechik]

Seriously. Dean is a fantastic candidate and a brilliant guy, and an inspiring leader. I was 100% in his corner in September.

But Clark is just as charismatic (if not more) seems to handle difficult questions a shade more gracefully than Dean, and is quite simply more qualified by far in foreign policy and defense. Clark would make Shrimpy the Chimp look like a box of tainted jello in a policy debate.

Dean would also destroy Bush in a debate,of course, but can he avoid accusations of inexperience? No. As ridiculous as that is when Bush is the opponent, that "lack of foreign policy" gambit couldn't come in to the Clark faceoff without the whole room exploding in laughter.

Also, Clark would get TONS of crossover votes from disgruntled Republicans. Can Dean say that? I don't think so; he's already been painted with the "Northeastern liberal" brush. Rove is licking his chops for the stew he can make with Dean's "bones" background.

And Clark, never forget, is a "fine Southern Gentleman," as fine and Good Old Boy-ish as Bush is himself. (except more sincerely-both are transplants but Clark actually grew up there)

And telegenic? Omigod! I think Dean is really cute and masculine and attractive, and I have a thing about doctors (I keep imagining him in scrubs.) But Clark is like an elegant porcelain figure of a knight in shining armor! (Sigh) Stand him next to Bush and they look like the hero and the psychotic villain in a Wes Craven movie!

ACK!!!

I feel panicked and guilty about abandoning Dean. Now, everytime he gets an endorsement, instead of celebrating wholeheartedly, as I should, I get more worried!

Damn it I just think Clark has a better chance of winning. What the hell do I do???!!!

Thank god Bill Owens cancelled our primary <sarcasm> I won't have a voice in the decision at all. All I can do is sit back and watch the circus.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

1. "his organization"

Seems to me Trippi's not the super-political-organization-building genius we thought he was ... a pre-existing network/organization got behind him. Trippi and Dean's organizational "genius" was just accepting their help.

[madfloridian]

2. Which pre-existing group would that be?

Do you have specific info that we do not? Are you saying we are not really real? If so I need to get my money back.
I just pinched myself, hubby just pinched himself, we are real.

There are lots of us, real people.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

5. The LGBT community

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=38420

No, everyone is really real, don't get me wrong!

[Capn Sunshine]

8. The GLBT commnity?

Yes, thank GOD we had their preexisting network to coast on! Why there isn't a day goes by I don't thank the transsexual stuffing envelopes in Burlington, pat the lesbian on the back slaving tirelessly over the HTML on the website, and hop onto the gay community blog (oops, I mean Blogforameria, we had to change the name) and drive my gaymobile to the bisexula coffeehouse for a confab with the group organizers over the queer makeover Gov. Dean is scheduled for.

Why, to imagine this campaign without them , there just wouldnt be a campaign.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

9. "There wouldn't be a campaign without them"

You have that 100% correct.

[KaraokeKarlton]

13. I was supporting Dean from the beginning

and I hate to break it to you, but I'm not a member of the LGBT community. In fact, most of the supporters of Dean I've personally met aren't from that community either.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

17. I hate to break this to you...

...without the LGBT community, the second rate not-so-articulate Dean would never have broken single digits. It seems that they are the brains behind the Dean campaign, not Trippi and certainly not Dean himself.

Dean will probably win, and that's why - he accepted their help and the network early on, and it worked. It was a brilliant strategy and it also explains a lot!

[KaraokeKarlton]

24. No, it was all kinds of people online who joined meetup

And I was one of the first members. It's true that Dean's supporters essentially "found him", but to say it was due to the LGBT community that Dean caught on and has been successful is total mallarky.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

33. no, not malarky

read the thread - how else do you think he had a network in every state so early on? Facts are Dean's not all that anti-Iraq War (he supports it now) and as his fans admit, he's not a liberal. So how did he do it? Read the thread. The early LGBT network allowed him to co-opt the anti-war movement.

Personally, I think it was a genius move, and that's why he'll win the primary. Not only that, but that's the organizing model I support - the use of pre-existing civil rights movements instead of a network built entirely about one person.

It's actually increased my opinion of Dean's campaign, and explained a lot of things that I couldn't understand.

[madfloridian]

25. I think your post is objectionable.

"...without the LGBT community, the second rate not-so-articulate Dean would never have broken single digits. It seems that they are the brains behind the Dean campaign, not Trippi and certainly not Dean himself."

This is poor taste. I hope it gets deleted. You insult just about everyone there.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

32. I bash Dean freely

I think he's a second rate politican ... so sue me!

[Scott Lee]

52. He's about to be your nominee, so sue that!

teeheeeeee

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

59. then I will hold my nose and vote for Dean

probably. He's better than Bush evidentally.

[cally]

66. I agree, this is insulting to Dean supporters

and the GLBT community. Dean wouldn't be where he is today without support from many others. The GLBT community gave lots of support, but many others did also.

[madfloridian]

23. We aren't members, but many of our group are.

The members of our group are great people who contribute a lot to our campaign and community. I would really really hate to think you are making fun of the group in any way.

[KaraokeKarlton]

26. Nope, not making fun of anyone at all

I'm just pointing out that it wasn't this particular community who gave Dean his initial organizational boost. There were plenty of members of that particular community who were part of the initial group, but it wasn't that group exclusively. It was the early meetup members that started the phenomenal Dean organization, and that wasn't exclusive to the LGBT community.

[madfloridian]

27. My post was directed at the other person. Sorry about that.

I felt that WhoCounts was being insulting, not you.

On Edit: In fact we are in agreement.
:hi:

[librechik]

6. maybe he's talking about Meetup or Moveon

but that's like saying he took advantage of the phone system. Silly. Besides, anyone can use Meetup; doesn't Lieberman?

Whatever happened with that Moveon candidate referendum? Are they actually backing Dean?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

28. Didn't moveon.org also help a lot??

I thought maybe they had.

[Capn Sunshine]

43. Not directly.But here's what they did:

Moveon most kindly loaned the campaign their primo internet guys Most notably Zack Exley, to assist in development of the software and websites which coordinated the Meeting framework vis a vis Meetup.com

Today, over 167,000 participants are involved with the Dean campaign via MeetUp.

We owe the guys at MoveOn a huge debt of gratitude.

[Jim Sagle]

16. What existing organization was that?

[Hawkeye-X]

3. Yeah, Owens cancelled the primaries.. but we still

have the caucus.. so you can still participate on how you want your delegate sent.. I'll be going. It's scheduled for the 2nd Tuesday of April which makes it April 13th.

Hawkeye-X

[librechik]

4. thanks for the tip Hawkeye--all CO democrats who can should go n/t

[Don Claybrook]

7. Thank you, thank you, thank you

I hope you represent a silent majority here, to wit, one that would be happy with either Dean or Clark, either of whom could kick George Bush alll the way back to the pig farm.

It gets really old saying something neuteral in a Clark thread and getting blasted by a Clark supporter. And yes, Dean supporters do the same thing to Clark people. It makes me end up saying to myself, I'm glad XXXXXX (Clark, Dean, Kerry, Edwards, Kucinich) is a better candidate than some of his obnoxious supporters.

I'm not sure who is cute or not; I like CMB's beautiful smile. :) But seriously, this board will have to pull together behind whoever wins, and some are making it really difficult for themselves by being so partisan and attacking the other guy.

Thanks for your post.

[NV1962]

11. Count on that

Up until the primaries are decided, it's Wes Clark for me - after that, it's "let's go onto the WH, all for President ______ "

I agree, that partisan Kindergarten behavior gets very annoying when it creeps up in almost every topic.

I'm having a hard time keeping sentiments towards a few disruptive characters around here, separate from the candidates that they purport to support - but in my mind don't.

If it's Clark I'll party, and if it's Dean I'll be working just as hard to get him into 1600 Penn Ave. (Don't see that much probability for another ticket - but bless that too.)

[MoonRiver]

50. Yes, I'm for Clark 100% unless somebody else gets the nom.

Then I work for our Dem candidate with the utmost vigor.

[chookie]

40. I've tried not to be silent

Just wanted to weigh in here -- I've not been mum about it, that I support both Dean and Clark. It is my opinion that the race is virtually between these two men, and I watch with great interest as each man rises to the challenge.

With the race down to these two candidates, I think we're going to see an end to this bitter character assassination which has marred the primaries up to now, and I look forward to what I believe are going to be very civil and open discussions between Dean and Clark as to how they share a sense of urgency in reversing the Bush juggernaut that is leading our nation into ruin, but differ in certain areas. Instead of fighting -- they're going to try to out-articulate each other, and it's going to be groovy.

[bowens43]

10. If the only to win is to

bring in disgruntled republicans then why bother? What does it say about Clark if Republicans are willing to vote for him rather then the incumbent? What good is winning the battle only to lose the war?
The 'Clark has a better chance of winning' argument doesn't hold water and adding more republicans to our ranks certainly isn't in any way desirable. It will have the net affect of moving the entire party further to the right, alienating those die hards on the left. No thanks.

[librechik]

14. this is no time to disdain Republican crossovers or the Southern

vote. It is life or death for America!
Do you want the Shrub another four years, or do you want to boot him and put in anybody with a brain? (that's one up on the Chimp!)

Think "GOP Supreme Court Nominees" and think again.

[chookie]

39. This cannot be understated

Thanks for raising this critical point.

Jeez maneez -- it's not just Progressives and Greenies and Socialists who are appalled by the Bush administration -- disdain for him runs very deep among moderates, traditional as opposed to radical conservatives, and sane Republicans.

Attempting to alienate our sane fellow citizens as outside "our" definition of what "American" means is stupid AND wrong.

I say, let's all join together to oust the radical and extremists who have hijacked the Republican Party, redefined "conservative" to mean what most understand as "wacko", and whose agenda is to transform the very nature of American society and law.

I'm happy to participate in a democracy with Americans of different views and interests. But what is at stake is actually democracy itself -- it ain't going to matter if America becomes an authoritarian one-party state ruled by a cult of personality and repression just how cool and progressive we are. Therefore, I welcome cooperation with all sane Americans to win back our country, the real Republican Party for the Republicans, and the real Democratic Party for the Democrats -- so we can be a democracy again.

[dave29]

15. we should always keep our door open

we are the big tent party. Both Dean and Clark are attracting Republicans. Part of why I wish they could get over themselves and team up already.

[Hep]

12. I'll share the words of a great Tar Heel.

Woody Durham, play-by-play announcer for the UNC sports teams says, "Go where you go and do what you do".

The point is, don't be worried. Just do what you do in support of your guy. It's ALL you can do. Your worrying doesn't help your candidate, but your dedication and energy do, so focus on what you have to do to get your guy elected.

[librechik]

19. I am still undecided. I'm supportive of ALL the Dems

Even Sharpton is a great candidate. (Lieberman is not a Dem, so I can't count him)

Just talking it over with my board buddies, y'know...

[Clark Can WIN]

18. To satisfy your guilt

Why not just decide how much money you can afford to budget for contributions, and give half to each of them? Or some other division you find suitable, 60/40 or whatever. That way you've hedged your bets and you won't have to feel so bad.

[librechik]

20. waiting to contribute til after the convention.

I'm all mouth at this point!

[CWebster]

21. What astounds me

is how Clark's absolutely vacant record political experience is just brushed off and Dean is discounted because he didn't do a military stint. As if wearing a uniform and maybe killing someone--maybe a VietNamese peasant or an Iraqi demonstrating outside a mosque - is the ultimate measure of what constitutes leadership. Let's talk about just what military service IS.

[oasis]

48. Americans will always have respect and admiration for THEIR military.

As voters, they will always vastly outnumber those who don't. Nothing too astounding about that.

[Tinoire]

58. Whew. Am I glad I scrolled all the way down to your post

for a minute there I wasn't sure which board I was on.

I will never EVER vote for the man who did this!

http://www.sramota.com/nato/razno/

http://www.sramota.com/nato/

[CWebster]

22. He is just dreamy....like,

oh my gawd, ya know...:swoon:

I'm all a flutter :*

[librechik]

44. you think this aspect of the campaign is unimportant?

if so, you are acting foolish.

Women vote,(a very very big proportion of the vote, too) and it is as much of an emotional choice for us as the rest of America. Go with your heart, I hear people in this thread saying. Mock me if you will, but like Marilyn said in "Gentlemen prefer Blondes:"You may not pick a girl to marry just because she's beautiful, but goodness, it couldn't hurt!"

Dennis K. is the best candidate as far as platform and "speechifying" goes, (or maybe Carol) but everyone here knows he has already been marginalized. Do you think his lack of telegenic good looks had anything to do with it at all? I sure do. I am not happy to report this, it just happens to be true.

[in_cog_ni_to]

29. librechik, I use to be a Dean supporter

and I don't feel guilty at all. I have donated $500 to the Dean campaign :(, went to the Wisconsin Democratic Convention/rally on Dean's behalf and attended 5 Dean Meetups. I don't feel guilty for switching. It was what "I" felt in MY heart that mattered and I feel Clark is the better candidate. Clark is, by far, a better candidate to beat the mindless wonder. He's a statesman, compassionate, kindhearted, highly intelligent, has extensive foreign policy experience, is pro-choice, is pro-environment and pro-affirmative action, has a Masters degree in economics, philosophy and political science, graduated 1st in his class at West Point...the resume goes on and on and on! He is an AMAZING man and will be an extraordinary president. Don't ever feel guilty for following your heart. Clark is worth the angst. :)

[xultar]

30. Support where your heart and mind agree. Dean is a great guy

his heart is in the right place. If we were in a different climate then I would vote for him in a heartbeat.

The economy is looking "up" if it continues then the only other issue we have to deal with is National Security and international policy.

Let's face it, Americans are scared to death. Most Americans feel that Repubs are better when it comes down to national security. So when push comes to shove they are gonna vote their security before their wallet. Let's face it the economy will tank if national security goes into the drink.

Clark is the guy for foreign policy and he is the guy to bring respect back to the USA.

With that bit of campaigning over...sit down get some high caffine beverages and read Dean and Clark's policy papers. Who knows based on your family situation Dean may be the one for you. Don't abandon re-evaluate and make a choice. Who knows DH may still be your guy.

Good Luck
Turra

[farmbo]

31. Clark's campaign needs some grownups...why'd they take Fed "match?"

That was a disastrous decision...and Clark supporters on this board simply fail to understand its significance.

From April to August, Clark will be legally prohibited from spending money (over the federal ceiling which will be quickly reached) to answer the $200 million Rovian mudslide which will be descending on the Democratic nominee.

This was a fatal, rookie mistake...and all for a mere $3.7 million federal match...about the amount Dean can raise on a long weekend...legally.

He's a great candidate condemned to a second rate, crippled campaign by "advisors" of dubious competence.

[lazarus]

35. about that $200 million Rovian mudslide

The Bush campaign has already spent over $20 million. And they haven't run a single ad or managed to get a single office officially open yet.

They'll be as efficient at running their campaign as they are at running the government. I wouldn't be in a panic.

[democratreformed]

42. Great point

:)

[Lobo_13]

56. You should look again.

Bush has quietly opened a whole boatload of offices.

He's not getting into it right now because he doesn't need to. The more the candidates tear each other up, the longer he can hoard his money.

He's currently raised over $125,000,000.00

That is SIX times more money than Clark. Three times more than Clark's upper limit, and he can bring in up to another 75,000,000.00 more.

He'll have enough to outspend Clark by twice as much on the air, and use the rest to register voters and other outreach. He'll tear Clark up.

I find that people who support Clark are extremely naive about the campaigning.

[silver]

34. Both Dean and Clark are the least experienced

I don't understand why Dean supporters would jump to Clark. We don't know enough about Wesley Clark - his years in the military and his career in investment banking. How about Wesley Clark's temperment - Did you catch his gaffe on CSPAN a few weeks a go - claiming to beat the sh#t out of someone? I didn't find that to be diplomatic or presidential.

If it were between Clark and Dean, I'd go with Dean because he's been on the progressive side most of his life. Clark talks about income inequality and lack of health care for all - what was he thinking when he voted for the pubs over and over again.

Also, aren't you all just a bit tired of the constant talk of the military in this country? With a Clark presidency, army slogans will become popular again. I'm tired of terror, guns, defense spending, and "be all you can be" slogans.

Let's elect a true progressive - John Kerry!

[in_cog_ni_to]

38. That phrase was corrected by Clark's campaign.

It now reads..."I'll kick the "living" shit out of them." His donation went WAY up after he said that, so it wasn't as bad as you and the media seem to think.

Uh, wasn't John Kerry the one who used the word "FUCK" in an interview???? Yeah, it was! But the word FUCK is presidential and diplomatic, right? And, wait, isn't Kerry also running on HIS military career? Wasn't he the one to use the aircraft carrier/Mission Accomplished bush snaffu in his TV ad? :eyes:

[QC]

47. Oh Miss Melanie--he said a dirty word!

Run and fetch me my smelling salts!

[lastliberalintexas]

64. Welcome to DU silver

Kerry's a great guy and would make a wonderful president. Keep supporting with all your efforts!

Sorry that the first 2 responses to you were so snippy. Some people just can't take any criticism of their guy, whether legit or not. And you'll find that among most candidates' supporters, not just Clark. For some people, the ignore function is a great option.

Hope you stick around DU!

[Crunchy Frog]

36. Hi librechick

I live in Colorado too. I know that I won't have a voice in the primaries, but I can and have voted in the "money primaries". There are meetups in the state this evening, and you can go and find out about things that you can do over here to help get Wes's message across in the early primary states. You can do things to help influence the process, even if your vote doesn't count. :)

[Auntie Bush]

37. I too loved Dean's anger

but after he gave us the power and courage to join in his anger...I heard of Wes Clark and determined that he was the one who could take that anger and Run with it, just like he did in the swimming championship.
Time for Dean to give the baton to Clark and let him run to the finish line. If Dean runs...WE LOSE...If Clark runs...WE WIN.

[librechik]

41. Dean is totally committed to running--he won't pass any baton

It's a fascinating dance these two devoted and crafty public servants are essaying. Both outsiders, seeming "above" the pack, both too classy and confident to yield to the other guy.

Yet from their records, I know they are both adept at compromise. It's quite hopeful.

Now if we can only overcome the other problem--DIEBOLD BBV!

:mad:

[Clark4VotingRights]

45. I agree with every point you made librechik

It's not that Dean is a terrible candidate, it's that Clark
is an exceptional candidate.

I think his Southern strategy is essential, his military
and foreign policy expertise are fantastic, his social policies
are progressive, he has all the right character and
personality traits, and looks presidential as hell.

He's articulate and friggen brilliant.
Picture him answering policy questions, contrasted with
Bush's little blinky scrunchy monkey face as he tried to
hear the right answer thru his earpiece.

Clark is tough as nails, which is a damn good thing.
He'll have to be. He has incredible poise.

And best of all, he's serious about voting rights and is
not taking the African American community for granted.

He's terrific.

[FubarFly]

46. Right on librechik

Good luck on your support of Clark.

I'm at the point where I don't care who people are voting for in the primaries, as long as they vote Dem in the GE's.

I think we are beyond the stage where tearing down any Democratic candidate serves a useful function. The candidates have been vetted enough; it's time we stopped the bleeding, and started the healing. Unity, hope, and a positive vision will carry the day in November.

Like it or not, these nine are our best hope at deliverance from the neocon agenda which is destroying our standing in the world, our way of life, and our hope for the future. They are all not without their flaws. But I am still able to look past partisan rancor and see their virtues as well. I believe all of our candidates will fare well against the moral and mental lightweight that is George Bush. The Republicans will try to divide us by hate and fear, but I will not give in to hate, and I am no longer afraid. I will continue to work hard for Dean, but I am emotionally prepared to support whomever gets the nomination, because that man or woman WILL be the next president of the United States. And despite any misgivings I may have, that is undeniably a step in the right direction.

Only time can prove me wrong.

[MoonRiver]

49. Go with your heart, girlfriend.

I've had the same transformation in my thinking. Although I have to admit I always secretly hoped Clark would enter the race, even while I ardently supported Dean. Maybe I'm fickle, but, since the moment he announced, Clark has been my #1 choice, and I've never wavered. Just remember how it was (is?) when you're dating one guy you really dig, but another one comes along, and, ooh la la, you know he's the real thing. That's Clark for America's President.

Here's a :kick: for the General!

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scott Lee]

54. But wait, when Dean talks religion, you guys freak

so there goes your post eh?

P-dunk!

[Dookus]

55. No...

we just snicker when he gets the basics of it wrong after pretending to know the subject.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

57. Just keep following them both....

at some point, you will decide...and based on what I know, although it's easier to go with the frontrunner....I think that you will find that Clark is the best of the two candidates....to beat Bush...and Honey...that's what I'm in this fight for.....

Not to change a party...not to teach coackroaches a lesson...

I'm in it to win...

and don't forget those 5 democratic senate seats in the South...waiting for us....we can't ignore them....or we won't have a fillibuster come 2005...and I have a feeling that we'll need it Greatly!

This is serious, not fun & games.

ON the money thing...if Soros wants Clark, why should I worry about it. The guy no dummy!
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20031220.shtml

In conversations with political friends, Soros confided he has become alarmed by Dean's recent performance and wonders whether the former Vermont governor is capable of defeating George W. Bush. In one such chat, Soros suggested he is interested in retired Gen. Wesley Clark.

[floridaguy]

61. Excellent post - go Clark (n/t)

[Clark4VotingRights]

62. Oh, I think he's going. Upward an onward.

After only three months. Amazing.

[TexasSissy]

63. I started out liking the one guy, too. Then Clark entered the race.

And I was sold, after I read about some of his policies, and as I heard more substantive talks from Dean. Clark's my candidate and more able to beat Bush.

[meow mix]

65. switch to clark!

Yay, hes the BEST EVER!
someone like him only comes around like once every 100 years or something. dont blow it!

cmon, who else will now join?! =)

[John_H]

67. Another Dem gets it.

We all love Howard Dean's "movement." But what do you want more? A cool movement or getting Chimp back to Crawford? Imagine: George W. Bush standing on the stairs of Air Force One for the final trip to Crawford just before Clark is sworn in.

It's either that or "Well, we lost by ten but wasn't the dean movement exhilarating?"