"How can this race be so close?" Stop asking! Here's why!

[DutchLiberal]

SLiberalismry day I see people on DU who are still surprised the race can be so close. Obama is obvious the smarter candidate, and way better qualified to be president. Still, he and McCain are doing 50-50 in the polls. And I see people at DU who are stunned by this. REALLY?

Obama has explained why: "They take pride in being ignorant! They actually think it's funny, to make fun about something that's actually true!" And they DO! Last night, I spent my time on another political board, where mostly right-wingers post. This is what they think, this is what we are up against:

"Science is flipflopping."

Somebody actually said that. They asked why scientists have changed their way of thinking about global warming (which they called "a lie") and I explained that this is how science works: you're doing new research, you gather new evidence and you revise your previous conclusions. And my whole argument got swept away by that one word: "flipflopping". So there you have it: scientists are nothing more but flipfloppers.

"The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, (MS)NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN and BBC are not credible sources."

I explained that McCain attended zero Congressional hearings on Afghanistan. But apparently, if it hasn't been on Fox News, it isn't true! The other sources listed are all part of the ´liberal media´ who is trying to indoctrinate the country with left/wing lies.

And my favorite is when one of the freepers explained to me what liberalism is:

"Liberalism doesn't work.

Liberalism is where:

- The hard-working pay for the lazy.
- The harder-working get punished for their effort through added taxes.
- The people who wait to have children until they can afford them pay for people who can't afford them.
- Take possession of brilliant ideas and don't give any credit to inventors.
- Think that huge government bureaucracy is better than thousands of job-producing companies.
- Think Americans get rich off greedy corporations who are only interested in making a profit. The truth is that Americans get rich off capitalism fostering the invention of many items and devices seen today.
- Embraces the fact that the poorest and laziest people in society contribute the least while taking the most.
- Hates rich corporations, yet fail to acknowledge how many people they employ and how many millions they contribute to society via taxes and charity.”

THIS is why the race is so close. To them, McCain makes perfect sense. Obama is an 'idiot'. Why? Sean Hannity said so! So they vote for McCain. And these are people we are never going to convince otherwise. And that's why a McCain presidency isn't such a long shot.

P.S. If you want to visit that board, here it is:
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=419

(I was there under the name 'Mr. Citizen'.)

[annabanana]

1. board probably Ailes-funded

It is certainly Ailes brained....

[DangerDave921]

2. question

How did you define "liberalism" back to them?

[liberal N proud]

4. You can't

They don't want to hear any new ideas, just recycle the same old ones.

I have always said the difference between Liberals and CONservatives is thinking. Liberals think for themselves and CONservatives must have someone else do it for them.

[DangerDave921]

5. I disagree

Even according to your definition, there is a conservative somewhere who is doing the thinking. What makes that person conservative? That's what I'm trying to get at.

Also, there are millions of people from both sides who don't do much independent thinking, but who simply parrot the talking points. I don't buy the pleasant falsehood that all liberals think for themselves while all conservatives have someone else do their thinking. I've known too many bright people to believe that.

What is your definition of liberalism? I love knowing how other people define it.

[PinkyisBlue]

18. I believe it has been shown that people who define themselves as "liberal" are more educated

than those who define themselves as republican. I feel that someone with more education and on the higher end of the intelligence spectrum does do more independent thinking than someone with less education and/or less intelligence. To earn an advanced degree requires a certain amount of investigative research which tends to encourage independent thinking (at least it used to).

My definition of a liberal is someone who looks at all sides of an issue and uses different informational sources before making a decision or reaching a conclusion.

[DangerDave921]

19. interesting

According to your definition, one could look at all sides of an issue, use different information sources, and reach a decision that is totally conservative, but still be a liberal in your eyes! LOL.

As to your first point, there are a ton of educated professional RW'ers. I don't think one party has a claim to the smart people. Plenty of people vote lock-step with their party regardless of independent thought.

[PinkyisBlue]

38. Interesting.

I had more to add to the definition, but since you think my viewpoint is so funny, I will keep my thoughts to myself. You are obviously much smarter than I am.

(P.S.)It's a bit disingenuous to write on a message board that you like to hear how different people define liberalism, and then you laugh at what they write.

[DutchLiberal]

7. Like the other poster said: you can't.

They gave me that whole list about 'why liberalism' doesn't work, and THEN added it's liberalism that holds back women, African Americans and gays!

I mean: :wtf:

How can you argue with such people?

[ieoeja]

32. According to a former president of the Indiana Right to Life:

Liberals believe people are inherently good. Conservatives believe people are inherently evil and that only the fear of God prevents them from doing evil.


Or consider the following joke...

Q. A person who speaks two languages is called bilingual. A person who speaks three languages is trilingual. What do you call someone who speaks only one language?

A. An American.

If you think that joke is poking fun at Americans, you must be a Liberal (or not an American). Because I was in a room full of Conservatives when I heard that joke and was surprised to discover that each and everyone of them thought the joke was making fun of Mexicans. They were just as surprised to learn how I took the joke.

For another example, the only times I have angered my Conservative acquaintances almost to the point of violence is when I have agreed with a position of theirs and given logical arguments in favor of that position. The anger wasn't because a Liberal agreed with them. It is because I made that argument in favor of their position. They believe their position on every issue is a moral absolute. And moral absolutes require no argument in their favor. My doing so shook up their worldview enough to make them threaten me with violence.

And, yes, I realize that Conservative politicos, pundits, etc make arguments in favor of their positions all the time. But their arguments often do come down to, "because everyone knows we're right." At any rate, it REALLY pissed off these people when I gave logical reasons why they were correct on that issue.

I have come to the realization that Conservatives and Liberals have a very different way of thinking. It's kind of scary actually.

[EstimatedProphet]

33. How on earth could that joke make fun of Mexicans?

Where do they even come in? That makes no sense at all. That's like saying:

How do you know when a lawyer is lying?
His lips are moving....

makes fun of Mexicans.

[ieoeja]

34. A little more info helps explain that (though not by much).

The guy telling the joke added, "and can you believe it was a Mexican who told me the joke!"

That really broke up the crowd. "A Mexican in the United States making fun of people who have to learn a second language!" Really hillarious stuff to your average rightwinger, I guess.

I guess I should have said, if you thought that joke was making fun of immigrants, then you just might be a Conservative. I realize it still doesn't make much sense, but that is what we are dealing with folks.

[DutchLiberal]

35. "Liberals believe people are inherently good." I sure don't.

[Heather MC]

3. It's really terrifying how the Mentally Challenged get decide who leads this country

[randr]

6. Gulliani showed as a leader in early polling

until the voting began.

[eshfemme]

8. OMFG

I thought things were bad but until you actually quoted "science is flipflopping" I didn't realize that there were still more depths to be plumbed from the well of stupidity that is the GOP. I really do not know what more to say except to wonder how exactly did they manage without the term "flip flop" before it was used as an attack on Kerry?

[LibDemAlways]

9. Yes there are ignorant and downright stupid people

out there who buy into rightwing crap. But I think another reason the race is close has to do with race itself. McCain's whiteness is a huge advantage in this racist country of ours. The fact that Obama holds any lead at all is a tremendous accomplishment. Race - and whether or not white voters - particularly older white voters - can ultimately rise above their prejudices and preconceived notions - will determine (IMO) the outcome of the election.

[qwlauren35]

20. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

For daring to say it.

[LibDemAlways]

24. You're welcome. But, in all truthfulness, I don't consider

myself daring at all. Just a very pragmatic realist.

[MaineDem]

10. Because the national popular vote doesn't matter

As we've seen in the past. It's really all about Electoral Votes and who wins what states.

[progressoid]

11. Yep, that's one of the major problems with democracy.

Everybody gets to vote.

[predfan]

12. Anybody remember 2000? or 2004? That's how this race is so close.

In 2000 our candidate was the sitting VP, and the economy was good, and his own home state (mine, too, I must confess) didn't vote for Gore. BTW, if either Tennessee or Arkansas HAD gone for him, we wouldn't be in this mess..........Then, 2004, we run another vietnam veteran (decorated, at that) and we lose again.

There's no question that our candidate this year is the better qualified, but with the track record of the American voters over the previous couple of elections (and the smear machine and/or outright thievery of the opposition) , well, that's how this race can be so close.

[Median Democrat]

27. Try Every Election Since 1968

Lyndon Johnson was the last Democrat to win by a popular vote landslide.

[CTLawGuy]

13. ask these people if they are millionaires

when they say "no" ask them why they are so lazy.

Cons don't understand that wealth has everything to do with supply and demand and little to do with "hard work".

[DutchLiberal]

14. That's a good one! Somehow, I feel sorry for them...

They are being tricked into believing that the GOP represent their best economic interests and that the "tax and spend liberals" are trying to destroy that. When in fact, it's the other way around and they keep getting screwed by the very people they keep voting in office.

[HughBeaumont]

31. There's the first problem . . .

. . . all of them will say "Yes" or "They will be next year!! My returns are beating the market by a HUGE amount!"

They're also 10 feet tall and bulletproof, those 88th Chairborne Divisioneers.

[DutchLiberal]

36. 'Chairborne Divisioneers'!

:rofl:

[Froward69]

15. I checked it out and

felt the need to vomit. the poster list is tiny and freepers are abound. not one of them could be convinced of any rational thought.

[rniel]

16. I don't think

Your never going to change their minds.

[DutchLiberal]

17. Yeah, I know, that's why I quit after one day. And also the reason for this thread.

We are never going to convince them, so we shouldn't be surprised the race is "still this close", despite all of McCain's blunders.

I like the cartoon, by the way! :rofl:

[HardWorkingDem]

21. Disagree because....this group of people only make up a part of..

the electorate.

Sadly, I think (but hope I am wrong) the real reason the race is so close is because of the most obvious reason and for that reason, Obama still has to "prove" himself to persuade these prejudiced voters to take a chance on him. Hopefully, with the convention and debates, when more people will really start to pay attention to Obama, these numbers will really start to illustrate how the poll numbers of the race should be and how deep in the toilet the rethuglicans have got us (by conditions in America).

On a happy note, it does look like more young open minded young people are getting interested in politics and the Dem party and that's good for us and the future.

[Median Democrat]

26. Why Did Bill Clinton Win Less Than 50% Of Popular Vote in 1996?

The economy was growing, we were at peace, and Robert Dole was a weak president who was getting votes siphoned off from Ross Perot. Yet, Bill managed to grab less than 50% of the popular vote.

Was Bill still trying to prove himself in his second term? Likewise, why is it that in the past 40 years, only Jimmy Carter managed to get more than 50 percent of the popular vote?

I know a couple of right wingers, and they are immune to facts and reason despite the Bush administration. If Bush was running for a third term. they would vote for him in a heart beat, yet are hardpressed to explain why. Their only response is that things would be worse with a Democrat in the White House.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[27inCali]

23. the idiots account for roughly 41%

we acount for about 45%

now it's about convincing a little less than half of the rest to side with us.

[Indenturedebtor]

25. McBush has got Electrolytes. n/t

[mvd]

28. Point by point rebuttal

"Science is flipflopping" - at least it doesn't rely on something based on faith like creationism and the intelligent design most talk about

"The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, (MS)NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN and BBC are not credible sources" - no, the FAUX News they watch makes them think that's how all news should be. And if not credible, it's because they cover up for McCain and Bush.

"Liberalism doesn't work.

Liberalism is where:

- The hard-working pay for the lazy. (no, liberalism rewards hard work by making it easier to get off the ground - and not all rich are hard working)
- The harder-working get punished for their effort through added taxes. (Again, not all rich are hard working. And the rich don't exactly hurt by paying higher taxes. At the same time, the country's infrastructure is more secure.)
- The people who wait to have children until they can afford them pay for people who can't afford them. (undertones of racism, and if they have this view, why are they against choice?)
- Take possession of brilliant ideas and don't give any credit to inventors. (nonsense - doesn't even need to be addressed)
- Think that huge government bureaucracy is better than thousands of job-producing companies. (Liberals are not socialists. Liberals want adequate consumer protections)
- Think Americans get rich off greedy corporations who are only interested in making a profit. The truth is that Americans get rich off capitalism fostering the invention of many items and devices seen today. (what we have is capitalism run wild where competition is less and inventions are not as valued because of the decreased competition. Corporations take advantage of tax loopholes)
- Embraces the fact that the poorest and laziest people in society contribute the least while taking the most. (This "lazy" idea doesn't take into account the job loss and unemployment. No, conservatives, not everyone can become rich.)
- Hates rich corporations, yet fail to acknowledge how many people they employ and how many millions they contribute to society via taxes and charity. (corporations are increasingly after their own interests and not for those that keep them alive)

[DutchLiberal]

29. Good work; I didn't have the energy to go through all the trouble...

They won't accept it anyway. Their only answer consists of name-calling whenever they're proven wrong...

[LWolf]

30. What is "SLiberalismry?"

I'm having trouble making sense of that first sentence.

[DutchLiberal]

37. Yeah, I know, I messed up. And by the time I caught it, editing-time had expired...

I had two possible opening sentences in my head and I guess I blurried them. Anyway, it should read: "Everyday on DU.." et cetera.

[LWolf]

39. Well, that makes sense.

I thought maybe it was another new acronym that I was behind the curve on. Happens frequently. ;)

[Butch350]

40. Because one of the candidates is a Black Man???

[Mudoria]

41. I'm not surprised it's close at all..

Democrats vote for Democrats and Republicans vote for Republicans. Simple as that really. There may be some small crossover but that all evens out. Like every other election the independents are going to be decisive. And they obviously haven't decided yet. I wouldn't be surprised if Obama won, nor would I be surprised if he loses.

[wiggs]

42. Because a strategy of polarization and smearing and misinformation has

resulted in strong identity bonds with the GOP in those for whom obedience, arrogance, group think, and an us vs them mentality are more important than logic and truth.

That...and the fact that the two candidates haven't really campaigned head to head yet...all we're getting, still, are sound bites and photo ops. It will take a huge effort to overcome the damage to public discourse that the GOP and entrenched power have created over the last couple decades.....I hope the Obama team is up to it because he's at a much bigger disadvantage than is apparent.