This won't be popular ... but it is the truth....

[Blackhatjack]

IF a 'bailout plan' is scuttled, it won't be John McCain's fault.

So who's fault will it be??

It will be the Wall Street prospective 'bailout recipients' and their well-paid lobbyists.

IF the crisis was as dire and serious as presented by Paulson and Cox and Bernanke, THEN they would rein in their aggressive lobbying for all kinds of concessions and additions to be included in the bailout plan, and they would have instructed their lobbyists to tell the Republican members of Congress to get on board and vote for the plan hammered out today --and forget trying to make McCain look like a hero.

Republican members of the House may have strong beliefs, but their pocketbooks are heavy with Wall Street lobbyists money, and if they were told to vote yes on the agreed to bailout plan they would.

McCain is just an opportunist who is following Karl Rove's advice --in the end the Wall Street Lobbyists are responsible for letting their unquenchable greed kill the 'golden goose of all bailout plans.'

[jgraz]

1. If the bailout plan is scuttled, it's the best possible outcome for taxpayers

Let these companies fail, elect Obama and start the progressive version of 'The Shock Doctrine' in January.

[Cronus Protagonist]

4. I'm glad it failed, and that was for only one reason - REGULATION

The recipients do NOT want money that stops them from playing the shell game. The shell game is more important than the infusion of a few million bucks. If that were not the case, and the cash was really urgently needed, they would be bending over backwards, desperate to get a third of what they asked for. Instead, they refuse to allow us to REGULATE, and refuse the bail out as well.

So now we all know - THERE IS NO CRISIS.

-end of message-

[scheming daemons]

6. You are SO wrong. If this is scuttled, 1/3 of us will be unemployed within 6 months

[ContinentalOp]

10. Yeah and there will be a mushroom cloud over NYC right?

:eyes:

[iconicgnom]

13. We cannot wait for the final proof. The smoking gun, that could come in the form of a mushroom clo

of a mushroom cloud.

I have to give George W. Bush credit. He's a better actor than Ronald Reagan.

And I have to give Nixon and Reagan's successors, the neocons in general, credit. They don't win every time just because the Dems are incompetent. They win because they know what they want, they have a plan, and they work ceaselessly to implement it. In the end, you have Obama and McCain joining G. W. Bush as sidekicks, as it were, in a photo-op glorifying the "bipartisanship" of a $trillion$ swindle.

[KoKo]

21. Wall Street Firms and Banks and Real Estate Consortium workers will be out of jobs...

and that is not a good thing. But, there are millions of folks out there who were barely getting by in manufacturing, textiles and Hi Tech...who have been losing jobs for years. Manhattan Real Estate will take a dive and many folks will have to cut back...and it's Hell for all of us. But, we have lived beyond our means and can't sustain it, anymore. Wall St. and Real Estate will have to take the hit like everyone else before true reform can take place. We just can't keep propping up some people at the expense of others out there in the country who have been suffering for years, now.

And, I say this having gone through the 70's job cuts and "wage price freeze," through banking crisis of 80's and real estate drop of '87 and then tech bubble of 2000 and the rest. We and our friends all lost jobs in all those times. We weren't getting bonuses in millions from Wall St. or fat jobs selling mortgages to those who couldn't afford to buy or trading in "financial instruments" that were all mathematical models or all the rest that's gone on.

This "Bail Out" will only cover over the problems and make them worse in the coming years. We have to figure out how to provide jobs that aren't "bubble dominated" or crookery.

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. It's a little boy who cried wolf problem, as you can see from the replies

Unfortunately, that story ends with a real wolf. The same is true here. No bailout = massive social catastrophe for this country. Half the people replying with snark to your posts will be unemployed within a year, there is little doubt about that.

[Romulox]

30. Again, you predicted the current crisis, right, Mr. Amazing Kresge?

Because if you didn't, it's tough to take your current prognostications all that seriously. :hi:

[Romulox]

29. You didn't predict this crisis in the first place, did you? So.... nt

[Egnever]

34. um you didnt see this coming?

[Romulox]

35. Oh, *I* saw it coming, it's just that our Free Market Warriors can't say that they saw it coming

(else it kinda discredits their entire ideology.)

[Spider Jerusalem]

12. Systemic collapse of the financial sector is good for the taxpayers how?

[jgraz]

27. Where's your evidence that we're facing a systemic collapse?

Just because the Bush regime says so? Right before an election?

That sounds a bit too familiar to me.

[Romulox]

31. George W. Bush and Hank Paulson told him so. DUH! nt

[jgraz]

33. Well, in that case, SIGN ME UP!

What possible motivation could they have to lie?

[Beacool]

15. You must be jesting!!!!

I live in an upscale town, home of Gov. Corzine and senator Menendez, and the downturn on Wall St. is already affecting the local economy. I went earlier this evening for a pedicure to my usual place. One of the girls told me that it had been very slow the last 2 weeks. She said that they had had only 6 customers today while they normally would have between 25 to 30.

So, who do you think that the collapse of Wall St. affects the most? It's the people who barely make it as it is and live paycheck to paycheck.

[jgraz]

28. God forbid we lose access to clean cuticles.

The bailout should be for the people giving the pedicures, not the people paying for them. This current "crisis" and bailout plan is a fraud.

[RagAss]

2. I agree....You know, it was just a pyramid scheme. What's the...

big deal? When one pyramid scheme is over, you just start another one. What makes this one so special?
It's all bullshit.

[kstewart33]

3. The bailout should pass.

Stop thinking about $700 billion. $600 billion of the loans we are taking over are GOOD loans. The cost of this bailout is actually less than $100 billion.

With the right regulatory and 'protect the little guy' provisions, this should pass.

If it does not, McCain will be to blame.

[Blackhatjack]

7. Really, McCain is clueless... he is following political advice...

I think McCain really believes he is this 'maverick' character, and he is reading the lines.

[Overseas]

32. Yes McLame will be to blame. He tried to follow the Gingrich plan.

I'm glad Democrats worked more controls into the plan and ways to get as much as possible reimbursed.


Link & Clip: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/gingrich-mccain.html

If McCain were to come out against the bailout plan, Gingrich said that Republicans would rally to his side and it would become possible for the McCain-Palin ticket to style itself as "taking on the Bush-Obama establishment."

"Either McCain is going to go along" with Obama in supporting the plan, said Gingrich, "in which case the establishment will have the fix in . . . or you are going to see McCain decide, much in the way that he did in picking Palin, that, in fact, he is a genuine maverick, that he genuinely defends the taxpayers, and that this is a terrible bill."

"If the latter happens," Gingrich continued, "I think you will see the emergence overnight of a 'McCain Reform Wing of the Republican Party' and you'll see House and Senate members siding with McCain by overwhelming margins and then you'll be in a very different political environment. You'll have 'Bush-Obama ads' on the one side and 'taking on the Bush-Obama establishment' on the other side, and that will be, frankly, one of the more amazing elections."

[Blackhatjack]

5. The Chinese Banks have been ordered not to lend $$ to US Banks... that is pretty scary...

It is the same thing as having a homeowner's home equity line cancelled.

We are definitely looking at a major meltdown that will affect the rest of the world, but even in these critical times the Wall Street entities are trying to get rollbacks in regulation and tax credits added to the 'bailout plan.'

How incredible, unprincipled, and greedy can you get? if the situation is as dire as described?

[RoyGBiv]

8. The CBRC denies this ...

"The regulator has never, through any channel, issued a statement or told domestic commercial banks not to lend to U.S. financial institutions," the CBRC said in a statement.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-09/25/content_10113092.htm

We'll see.

[Blackhatjack]

14. THanks for the Link! However, the proof is in the lending.... n/t

[iconicgnom]

22. Don't they already own approx $250 B US of Fannie and Freddie, alone?

Isn't it correct that the US couldn't pursue its wars, and global military operations as "the sole superpower", if Japan, China, and the oil rich mid-east countries refused to finance it? The US military economy is all powered by credit. By deficit financing. It doesn't "trade" some tangible good. It just makes and uses bombs and weapons and pays for a standing military plus an increasingly large mercenary army, and mercenary infrastructure, in a game of global conquest. So, a fundamental fact is that aside from what is outright plundered, a military economy doesn't produce any actual income. So it follows that such an economy will be powered by credit. Boeing is paid with borrowed money to make the military equipment that the US war machine buys, and Boeing pays its work force with that borrowed money, and the work force settles down to a middle class life, buying houses, cars, trucks, summer cabins, and so on, using the stability of their Boeing jobs as guarantee for their personal lines of credit.

[cali]

9. Actually, that's what's called an OPINION. It's not some immutable truth.

I wish certain people would learn that there's a huge difference between the two.

[Blackhatjack]

11. To state facts that by themselves lead to an immutable conclusion is stating the truth...

... maybe a 'certain person' ought to review his/her field guide for making correct assertions about other posters.

BTW just for the record, opinions can be statements of truth. For example, "I believe the sun will rise tomorrow morning" is an opinion and the underlying premise is true. "The sun always rises every morning" is a statement of fact that is true.

Did you want to discuss the differences between opinions and factual assertions which are true? Or did you just want to feign intellectual superiority?

[instantkarma]

16. except the sun doesn't actually rise

It only appears to "rise."

[Blackhatjack]

17. Touche! But can you 'prove' that the sun does not 'rise'? LOL

How about 'the moon shines'?? (But we all know that the moon does not shine, it merely reflects sunlight).

[BlooInBloo]

18. You've gone from silliness to stupidity.

[Blackhatjack]

20. Now for those who care -- that is an OPINION. n/t

[instantkarma]

19. one cannot prove a negative

observing something, then making an assessment in your mind based on the memory of the event does not make your assessment a fact. And the moon does shine. That doesn't mean it creates light through some self-contained process.

[Blackhatjack]

23. That philosophical argument is easily defeated...

All I have to do is reframe the assertion in a positive light (ie. "Can you disprove that the sun does rise every morning?").

[instantkarma]

24. whatever...

my original point wasn't with your claim of truth, but rather with your claim that "the sun rises" is a statement of fact.

The illusion of sunrise is caused by the rotation of the Earth. That's a fact and also the truth. Whatever.

[Blackhatjack]

25. Of course you are correct on the scientific explanation of Earth rotation and perception of the sun

I know it dates me, but the 'sun rising' example was used in my college philosophy class to make the exact same point.

Philosophy and science discussions can be like 'oil and water.'