Okay, someone talk me down here please. Thom Hartmann thinks the Dems have been hoodwinked.

[navarth]

Anybody hear that? WTF?

[spinbaby]

1. What did he say?

We are not mind readers.

[navarth]

3. sorry, I didn't catch the details, just the sense of it.

it was about the whole meeting in Washington with Bu$h/McCain.

[adamuu]

41. well, one thing is clear

Here on DU, its either really really good or really really bad
As in
It's either The End of McCain's Campaign(tm) or
It's a Rovian Trap for Obama(tm)

[elocs]

10. A lot of DUers apparently believe we are mind readers,

or that everyone else is watching, listening, or reading what they are. You get these cryptic posts with little or no explanation.

[navarth]

17. sorry. I was hoping someone else heard it.

[elocs]

27. No biggie. Your post actually told way more than some do. n/t

[KittyWampus]

2. then Hartmann doesn't know what he's talking about

[navarth]

5. oh really.

news to me.

[KittyWampus]

12. the Republican party is breaking apart. McCain is siding with the most Conservative faction in the

House. A group in very red districts whose only concern is getting re-elected.

[ShortnFiery]

13. Hartmann is one of the most intelligent people on the planet. I'm going to consider his viewpoint.

:thumbsup:

[KittyWampus]

15. He's pretty much got only one note to play- criticize Democrats

[navarth]

19. now that is simply NOT true.

[phleshdef]

36. Apparently you don't listen to Hartmann...

...because if you did, you would know what you are talking about. That statement insinuates that you don't have a clue.

[navarth]

50. WTF?

Your message is so rude and ill-informed I barely know what to say.

For your info, I listen to him every day. For many years now.

Try not to be so insulting when you speak.

[phleshdef]

53. LOL. Take another look, I wasn't replying to you...

I was replying to the person you replied to.

I'll let it go this time. Next time, YOU DIE! :P

[navarth]

54. Aieee!

I will now gladly let you kill me!

[Overseas]

40. That is completely untrue. He has supported lots of Democratic

principles. He is a brilliant scholar who knows a lot of Democratic history and is a staunch defender of progressive Democratic principles.

Sometimes he shares some disappointment when Democratic leaders won't have the courage to impeach the president for clear war crimes, or when Democrats cave in to Republican pressure tactics, but that certainly doesn't mean his main aim is to criticize Democrats.

You may have heard one or two of his very incisive critiques of Democrats and dropped him without listening further.

Or you may have caught one of the many times he has invited right wingers on for civilized discussions. He is always able to slice and dice their ridiculous arguments with solid Democratic principles and data. He does that in order to model ways to have discussions without disintegrating into shouting matches. He's very civil but also very strong in defending Democratic values.

He is one of the most hopeful people I know. He gives me a lot of inspiration to keep going in hopes that our society will move toward a truly more democratic society. He still believes we can change society and encourages progressives to join their local Democratic party to bring it back to our core values.

[Overseas]

32. Yes he does. Gingrich suggested similar things

Gingrich suggested how McLame could use the current crisis to his political advantage. So it is just a small step from there to wonder whether the Republicans might not have engineered the whole thing.

HERE'S THE GINGRICH STUFF:

If McCain were to come out against the bailout plan, Gingrich said that Republicans would rally to his side and it would become possible for the McCain-Palin ticket to style itself as "taking on the Bush-Obama establishment."

"Either McCain is going to go along" with Obama in supporting the plan, said Gingrich, "in which case the establishment will have the fix in . . . or you are going to see McCain decide, much in the way that he did in picking Palin, that, in fact, he is a genuine maverick, that he genuinely defends the taxpayers, and that this is a terrible bill."

"If the latter happens," Gingrich continued, "I think you will see the emergence overnight of a 'McCain Reform Wing of the Republican Party' and you'll see House and Senate members siding with McCain by overwhelming margins and then you'll be in a very different political environment. You'll have 'Bush-Obama ads' on the one side and 'taking on the Bush-Obama establishment' on the other side, and that will be, frankly, one of the more amazing elections."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/gingrich-mccain.html

[Phx_Dem]

42. Yeah, the only problem with Newt's brilliant

analysis is that McCain is aligning himself with the small, but extremely conservative wing of the nutjob party. Hardly a reformer does that make. A story I read this morning (can't remember where I read it) summed it up by saying that a bi-partisan effort was in the works between House and Senate Dems, Senate Republicans, Paulsen and Bernake and the House Republicans along with McCain have thrown a wrench into the bi-partisan negotiations. (paraphrased).

Nearly every news story is laying the blame at McCain's feet for mucking up the works and offering little, if any, input.

*******************************************************************

By midnight, it was hard to tell who had suffered a worse evening, Bush or McCain. McCain, eager to shore up his image as a leader who rises above partisanship, was undercut by a fierce political squabble within his own party's ranks.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ioHc80xKMiATnqCpK0cDKJzk_nPQD93EBTVO0

**********************************************************************

KATIE COURIC: And, Bob, I understand that John McCain actually floated an alternative plan. What can you tell us about that?

BOB ORR: We're told at the White House Senator McCain offered an alternative plan that would include fewer regulations and more corporate tax breaks for businesses,kind of a private solution. But we're also told those ideas angered and surprised Democrats like banking chairman Chris Dodd who now says he thinks the White House summit was more of a political stunt for McCain.

http://www.americablog.com/2008/09/cbs-mccain-offered-last-minute-new-deal.html

******************************************************************************

But, over the intervening 24 hours, McCain saw what at first looked like a brilliant political gambit turn into a nightmare, as an apparent done deal to save the financial industry devolved into a partisan shouting match at the White House that left congressional negotiators back at square one....

Spin aside, McCain blinked in what had become a high stakes staring contest between he and Obama.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/09/debate_is_on.html

*********************************************************************

From GOP Strategist Ed Rollins:

"At the end of the day, there's a lot of people thinking about how to rebuild this party," said strategist Ed Rollins on CNN, "and do we want to rebuild it with John McCain, who's always kind of questionable on the basic facts of fiscal control, all the rest of it, immigration. And I think to a certain extent this 110, 115 members of this study group are saying, here's the time to draw the line in the sand."

"That's pretty scary stuff that they're thinking about party right now and not country, is that what you're saying?" responded host Anderson Cooper.

"I think they're, yes, they're thinking about themselves," said Rollins. "I think they don't think that the threat is as great as a lot of other people do."

http://www.americablog.com/2008/09/gop-strategist-house-republicans-are.html

[Overseas]

52. That has been uplifting. Watching the schemes get all dented. /n

[billyoc]

4. He's getting in touch with his inner Mike Malloy again.

[Buck Rabbit]

14. LOL +1

[DefenseLawyer]

6. Get down.

Right now.

[maxsolomon]

7. the GOP/mccain plan was to draw the dems into taking responsibility for the bailout

and if they blink & vote it through with no GOP support, that could work.

maybe, i'm not listening to Thom.

the GOP is trying to change the frame. i believe Obama's campaign is too smart to allow that.

[AnnetteFun]

45. Yes, I agree the Repubs are setting a trap

They are making it appear that the Democrats are the ones pushing the bsilout plan, and the Repubs don't want it. Nevermind it was originally proposed by Bush's people. People don't remember that. The Democrats really need to be careful that they are not seen as pushing through this plan, which is STILL very puzzling, confusing and unpopular.

[DJ13]

8. Some Dems are so gunshy after the last two elections they are ..

....unwittingly doing McCains work for him by seeing movements in every shadow and crying out in panic.

The McCain campaign is in a shambles, now is not the time to help them out.

[Alhena]

9. Maybe, but we run Congress so we can just do nothing and any bad consequences

will be the property of the House Republicans.

[Joe the Revelator]

11. If you need "talking down" then you haven't been paying attention

We won this.

[AllieB]

16. I think we're all suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder from 2 stolen elections.

I think the Obama campaign is too smart for falling for Repuke BS.

[navarth]

31. that's what I'm hoping. thanks

[A-Schwarzenegger]

18. BBNRS.

Bring Back New Ratings System.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. Well we all may be getting hoodwinked by a fake disaster

but that is somewhat separate from the idiotic Failed Stunt McCain tried to pull. At best Gramps took some heat off of his corrupted campaign manager, but only by looking erratic deranged weak clueless and transparently pandering while getting in the way of a deal he and his campaign declared to be essential to avoid

The Great Depression.

No. Grand Master McStunt killed his campaign this week. Expect a staff massacre on monday.

[elocs]

21. Yes, it is a plot wrapped in a conspiracy that is iced with treachery and intrigue.

Most of the time things are exactly what they appear to be and too often so called "experts" and commentators overthink things. I think some credit Republicans with having way more intelligence than they possess.

[navarth]

22. DAMN, people

I was just looking for insight, not smackdowns. Just ignore me if you don't like the question. I seriously don't think I'm helping the other side.

[izzybeans]

29. I'm inclined to agree with the possibility we are being railroaded into

some very undemocratic class-warfare.

This feels so much like the Iraq war vote that I'm very surprised that so many here at DU aren't skeptical. Very surprised.

The Bush administration is using the election to push through what to me seems like one of the biggest heists in history. It feels like a caper to steal from the poor so the rich can continue to eat their cake.

I have yet to see any clear or sensible explanation for how this mess will impact real people. Nor has anyone issued any numbers to back up their claims.

[HughMoran]

23. Another fucking stupid "talk me down" thread

What the fuck - there's no discussion in your post and I DON'T GET AAR/LIBERAL RADIO HERE!!!!!

:eyes:

[navarth]

25. man....

I was asking for insight. Chill the fuck out please. Discussion can spring from a question. I had a question.

How much energy does it take to be nice when you do this?

[navarth]

33. by the way, I'm listening on the internet.

you've got it, obviously.

[HughMoran]

39. Can't do that on my work IP

...but I still think everybody is overfuckinganalyzing the goddamned debate tonight!

[navarth]

49. sorry to hear that

and perhaps you're right about overanalyzing the debate. however that's not what Thom was talking about.

some guys at the place I used to work had satellite radios with them, don't know if that would help.

[lapfog_1]

24. I'm pretty sure I agree with him

Coburn (R-OK) calls up Obama and suggests a joint candidate statement.

Obama calls McCain and suggests a joint stmt and agreement on general principles.

McCain, without Obama, announces that he is suspending his campaign and returning to work on the bailout, a bailout he hasn't given a crap about for nearly 7 days.

Senate and House negotiators announce that a deal in done in principle.

Bush invites Obama and McCain to the photo op meeting, presumably to announce the agreement.

McCain and Boener blow up the meeting by saying the DON'T agree and that the House Republicans have a new proposal which does NOT involve a bailout... but rather depends on TAX CUTS to attract money to Wall Street firms, plus MORE deregulation!

Everybody leaves the meeting angry.

The Dems (and Obama) are now tied to carrying the water for the BUSH ADMIN and trying to sell an unpopular Wall Street bailout plan. the Repukes (led by the MAVERICK) are repudiating BUSH and the BAILOUT and, also, are preventing the Dems from returning to their districts and campaigning.

Yeah, it was a set up.

Obama needs to watch his back when his "friendly" Senators offer him suggestions. Should have learned this lesson with LIEberman.

[LSK]

26. I think the GOP is trying this but the Dems are aware of this danger

[napi21]

28. The flaw I see in Thom's position is that there's no REAL way to know

the future. I can understand Thom's point that the country's been hoodwinked by these liars several times in the past (WMD's, the Patriot Act, Passe Camitatas etc) and he thinks this is yet another lie and there really isn't a crisis. I think we all have to setep back and try to look at what we are seeing in the daily market and listen to wverything being said and make a decision on what we believe and if we're willing to risk being wrong. It's one thing to push provable lies like the WMD's were, but quite another to predict what the market would do if the gov't didn't intervene at all.

My personal position is that I'm not willing to risk that Paulson is right. The idiots that really more the market are a really skiddish bunch and they usually panic first and think later...if at all! I does appear to be true that banks have shut down almost all credit and our system can't operate without credit. All the foreclosures, housing value declines, and bank closings are causing the beginning of a panic not only on WS but many American people, who are now rushing to their bank to pull out all their money and CAUSING more bank failures. I would prefer a different solution than this "bailout Plan" but I honestly think the Feds HAVE to do something.

[wildflower]

30. I love Thom and think he is very smart

However, I'm noticing he does have a tendency to go off half-cocked at times.

Thom is a very interesting person. He is one of the only optimistic conspiracy theorists I know.

The attitude I take when listening to Thom, or anyone else, is that all of us are wrong from time to time. I wouldn't worry too much...just listen to lots of opinions and try to assess for yourself what's going on, then hope (and work) for the best outcome.

[navarth]

35. That's what was upsetting about it...usually Thom is right on, and

this opinion of his went against everything I was percieving. Hence the need to get some other opinions. Thanks for yours.

[seabeyond]

38. i am with you. he is smart, i like him and he comes up wrong too much. n/t

[jefferson_dem]

34. Hartman is out of touch with reality, per usual.

Dismiss.

[navarth]

37. that is a very surprising opinion.

so who do you listen to and believe? I'd like to know.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

48. I think he's one of the most well-read and rational people on talk radio

Hartmann is one of the few to consistently have well-known people on his show with the opposite point of view to challenge his positions. He usually wins the argument.

[jefferson_dem]

55. Perhaps you are right and I should give him another listen.

Thanks for the perspective. :hi:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

58. Well, people might take issue with him on this current economic situation

Frankly, I feel totally incapable of giving a reasoned opinion on it because I lack the background. But I think major minds in the field of economics are hotly debating what we should do. That's why I think we should proceed slowly and with great caution.

But I've really liked what Hartmann has had to say about Reaganomics and what has ensued from it. I've supported Hartmann's criticism of the Iraq War, the Patriot Act, and the cowardly way the Dems backed down on the FISA amendments. Hartmann is definitely left of center, but he always seems to back up his opinions with the facts and that's why I listen to him.

[chicagoexpat]

43. & I understand Mark Halperin thinks McCain won the week!!!!!

[bullwinkle428]

44. Hartmann was claiming Palin would be off the ticket within 24 hours,

every day of the week of the Republican Convention!! :rofl:

I mean, I like the guy and all...listen to him every day, but certainly don't take every prediction of his as gospel!

[kurt_cagle]

46. For Dems, its a situation where they have to do something

Reality - the crisis is very real. The intraday funds have essentially dried up, and there's almost no liquidity in the system. The ONLY thing right now that's keeping the system from keeling over is that this plan hasn't been completely put to bed yet. Significantly - the market really didn't react one way or another when McCain tried to scuttle it, not because they don't recognize the urgency, but because I think they realize that he's a non-player at this point ... Obama will determine what the final bailout plan looks like, and more importantly, he'll be the one that sets the agenda moving forward.

Now, if Obama had thrown up his hands and said that a plan wasn't going to happen, the market would have reacted ... badly.

FWIW, I found the initial Paulson bill reprehensible. I find the Dem plan discouraging because its necessary even if it is expensive (though notice that it also provides that money only in stages, with very strong oversight to get to each successive payment), but it looks a lot like the Swedish bailout plan of the 1980s, and with some solid fiscal discipline, I think it might give a pretty good chance of laying a framework for moving forward with additional legislation next year.

Remember, Paulson has been trying (pretty much unsuccessfully) to stave off this collapse each step of the way. I think Paulson's a fool, but he's not an idiot. Concerning Bush - I was inclined to think that this was the prelude to yet another concerted effort to take over power until I saw his speech. What I saw was a man who was defeated - there was no attempt towards joviality, there was only a token effort of even trying to push the blame onto other people. He was in trouble, and he was in a position where he had to effectively give the government to the opposition party in order to salvage even the tattered remnants of a legacy.

Do I trust either man? No - Bush less than Paulson - but I also think that there isn't some grand plan here. Bush has no power among the Republicans now, and the GOP is fracturing and panicking because they're last best hope is a senile old man and a dangerously deranged bimbo.

This will hurt the Dems a little bit now, but I don't think its hurt Obama in the least. He has appeared presidential - calm, collected, intelligent, capable of coming up with a reasonable plan that addressed both the immediate and longer term problems. He outwitted McCain, putting him into a position where he can't call upon the "hero" mantle anymore - he's been shown to be a coward, and a fool. He's already looking past the election, where he knows that aspects of this plan can be restructured as the situation becomes clearer, and he's addressing the psychology of this problem (and yes, its as much a question of psychology as it is economics).

Ask yourself this - do you trust President Obama to do the right thing with this once he gets into office? If you do, and I'm coming to believe that if he doesn't know the right thing right now, he'll be able to figure it out with some of the brightest minds in the world to call on, then you should look beyond the moment.

One other point. If, by some bizarre bit of election night jiggery McCain gets into office - this bill will be toast anyway ... as will the US Economy.

[brindis_desala]

47. Excellent post n/t.

[WeDidIt]

51. I';ve given up on Thom Hartmann

I've noticed for a while he's really gone off the deep end, almost to a Mike Malloy point.

So I no longer listen to him.

[azmouse]

56. Thom hates the current Dem leadership and makes no attempt to hide it.

He's all doom and gloom over anything they say and do.

I like Thom but I take whatever he says with a large grain of salt.

[geiger]

57. Regular Dem politicians maybe, but I don't count on Obama to be hoodwinked anytime soon.

He gets it. The rest of the establishment/elected morons just seemingly can't catch on. I'm placing my bets on him being able to guide us through this. He doesn't panic, number one.

What I resent is having a twelve year old son having to analyze this bullshit. I will never forgive them for that. Our children's future and childhoods alike are being robbed.

THAT is truly one fucked-up scenario.