I'm concerned....

[LBJfan]

While I am quite sick and tired of the Republican domination of our government, I am also quite fond of the sporting use of my firearms.

A friend sent me a link to the article below, and it has me concerned. While I want Bush & Co. out of office, I don't want to put someone in office that has been so apparently rabid about banning all types of firearms, like my semi-auto grousing shotgun, or my centerfire range rifles.

Is this all made up, or is Kerry really this anti-gun? Any assurance greatly appreciated.

http://www.nrapvf.org/kerry/Read.aspx?ID=4086

His voting record makes John F. Kerry the most anti-gun Presidential nominee in United States history. Since his election to the U.S. Senate in 1984, John F. Kerry has cast 59 votes (NRA did not score 4 of them) on issues involving firearms rights and hunting. These votes included votes to ban guns, to impose waiting periods on gun buyers, to financially punish gun manufacturers for operating a legal business and to restrict the free speech of Second Amendment advocates.

In addition, Kerry currently is a co-sponsor of S. 1431, which would ban all semi-automatic shotguns, all detachable-magazine semi-automatic rifles and many other guns, calling the whole lot "assault weapons."...

for a study of "armor piecing" ammunition—a vote he made moot a few minutes later by voting for a broad ban of center-fire rifle ammunition (Votes 27 and 28 in 2004 on S. 1805)...

Kerry has a much more anti-gun record than 2000 Democrat Presidential candidate, Al Gore, Jr., who cast votes on 12 key issues before becoming part of the most anti-gun administration in history. Gore voted to protect Second Amendment rights five times on votes related to passage of the Firearms Owners` Protection Act and once to stop a semi-auto ban. Kerry opposed gun owners in each instance...

Kerry voted in 2004 to ban most center-fire rifle ammunition, including the most common rounds used by target shooters and hunters. Kerry voted in support of Ted Kennedy`s amendment to S. 1805 that would have banned rifle ammunition...

Kerry voted in 1985 to allow BATF to conduct unlimited warrant-less inspections of FFL holders. Well-documented and shocking BATF abuses of license holders were a primary reason the Firearms Owners` Protection Act was introduced in Congress and signed into law by President Reagan. Kerry was one of only 18 Senators to vote to allow such abuses—which liberal Democrat Congressman John Dingell called the acts of "jack-booted fascists"—to continue...

Kerry, unlike 56 of his fellow Senators, is not a member of the Congressional Sportsmen`s Caucus. With more than 300 members in the House and Senate, it is one of the largest Caucuses in the U.S. Congress, and is "open to Congressmen and Senators who are sportsmen or who support the concept of sustained use and wildlife management, even if they do not themselves take to the fields and waters to fish, hunt or trap."...

Kerry voted in 1999 against an amendment to the Juvenile Justice bill that called for increased mandatory minimum and maximum penalties for the illegal transfer or use of a firearm. Instead of supporting this legislation that focused its impact on criminals, Kerry supported broad regulation of law-abiding gun buyers.

In contrast, the year before Kerry voted to impose excessive penalties of a year in prison and a $10,000 fine on an adult if a juvenile gains access to their firearm, even by theft, and then merely displays it in a public place...

Voted to spend $15 million intended for housing programs on ineffective gun buy-back programs.

It's all very troubling to me....

[59millionmorons]

1. Oh please

Knowbody will take your guns away and knowbody will make abortions illegal. It's all part of the political game from both parties.

[Dickie Flatt]

4. Yeah, but this stuff is from the NRA. It's airtight. [n/t]

[jedicord]

16. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha n/t

[volosong]

36. I'm A Gun Owner Too...Get A Grip for God's Sake!

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LBJfan]

11. "Go Back to Freeperville"

What's that supposed to mean?

I take it that it's derogatory, but I don't spend a lot of time here and haven't encountered that perjorative before.

[name not needed]

14. Free Republic

A right wing message board where like minded nutjobs masturbate to pictures of M16s and Ronald Reagan.

[LBJfan]

40. Ummm...I don't think I've been there....

I don't have an AR15, and never particularly cared for Reagan after my dad lost the job he'd had for 18 years...

[chiburb]

17. 12 posts since 2002...

I guess you don't.

[chiburb]

19. Pejorative.

[LBJfan]

26. Thanks.

My finger apparently hit both "e" and "r" keys, and I didn't catch it.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[name not needed]

3. WTF?

I wouldn't consider any site proclaiming "DEFEND FIREARMS. DEFEAT KERRY." an unbiased source.

[talullah]

5. Your first mistake

is believing ANYTHING the NRA says. I'm a gunowner/hunter and I firmly believe that the NRA is the most bogus special interest group that exists in America today.

[LuminousX]

6. Seeing that Kerry is a sportsman

I highly doubt that he'll be taking anyone's guns away.

Besides, do you really think any President can decide that on his/her own? I do believe Congress would have a lot to say about that, especially Senators and Representatives from rural states that support hunting and sporting uses for weaponry.

There is nothing to be troubled with unless you sportingly use assault weaponry.

[NMDemDist2]

7. kerry's position

Protect Gun Rights And Stop Gun Violence
John Kerry is a gun owner and hunter, and both he and John Edwards support the Second Amendment right of law-abiding Americans to own guns. Like all of our rights, gun rights come with responsibilities, and John Kerry and John Edwards support mainstream measures to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and terrorists: enforcing the gun laws on the books, closing the gun show loophole, and standing with law enforcement officers to extend the assault weapons ban.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/communities/

[democrat_patriot]

8. Do some research. Kerry is not anti-gun.

eom.

[sangh0]

You should be

Bush* is going DOWN!!!

[pocoloco]

9. asscroft is the one you better

be worried about!!!

[medeak]

10. dude...have animal heads looking at me

Where are you coming from? No one is taking guns away.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[chiburb]

13. self delete...

deleted

[Lex]

15. THE FACTS.

It's really quite easy to do a little research and pull down the facts for yourself, if you were really interested in doing so . . .

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/John_Kerry_Gun_Control.htm

-------------------------

Gun owner & hunter, but rights come with responsibility

John Kerry is a gun owner and hunter, and he believes that law-abiding American adults have the right to own guns. But like all of our rights, gun rights come with responsibilities, and those rights allow for reasonable restrictions to keep guns out of the wrong hands. John Kerry strongly supports all of the federal gun laws on the books, and he would take steps to ensure that they are vigorously enforced, cracking down hard on the gun runners, corrupt dealers, straw buyers, and thieves that are putting guns into the hands of criminals in the first place. He will also close the gun show loophole, which is allowing criminals to get access to guns at gun shows without background checks, fix the background check system, which is in a serious state of disrepair, and require that all handguns be sold with a child safety lock.

Source: Campaign website, JohnKerry.com, "Issues" Mar 21, 2004

-----------------------------

Democratic Party shouldn't be for the NRA

Q: Do you find it necessary to kill animals for photo-ops?

A: I don't think the Democratic Party should be the candidacy of the NRA. And when I was fighting to ban assault weapons in 1992 and 1993, Dean was appealing to the NRA for their endorsement, and he got it. I believe it's important for us to have somebody who is going to stand up for gun safety in America and make certain that we make our streets safe, our children safe, and not allow people to get assault weapons in America.

Source: CNN "Rock The Vote" Democratic Debate Nov 5, 2003

-------------------------------

Supports assault weapons ban & Brady Bill

Q: Your views on gun safety.

KERRY: There's a story in today's Washington Post that says that Democrats are going to run away from the issue of gun safety. I don't think that we can get elected nationally if we are not prepared to stand up against powerful special interests. Too many die each year from guns. I am for the assault weapons ban. I'm for the Brady Bill.
Source: Democratic Presidential 2004 Primary Debate in Detroit Oct 27, 2003

----------------------------------

Voted NO on banning lawsuits against gun manufacturers for gun violence.

Vote to pass a bill that would block certain civil lawsuits against manufacturers, distributors, dealers and importers of firearms and ammunition, mainly those lawsuits aimed at making them liable for gun violence. In this bill, trade groups would also be protected The bill would call for the dismissal of pending lawsuits against the gun industry. The exception would be lawsuits regarding a defect in a weapon or ammunition. It also would provide a 10-year reauthorization of the assault weapons ban which is set to expire in September 2004. The bill would increase the penalties for gun-related violent or drug trafficking crimes which have not resulted in death, to a minimum of 15 years imprisonment. The bill calls for criminal background checks on all firearm transactions at gun shows where at least 75 guns are sold. Exemptions would be made available for dealers selling guns from their homes as well as members-only gun swaps and meets carried out by nonprofit hunting clubs.

Reference: Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act; Bill S.1805/H.R.1036 ; vote number 2004-30 on Mar 2, 2004

-----------------------------

Voted YES on background checks at gun shows.

Require background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows.

Status: Amdt Agreed to Y)50; N)50; VP decided YES

Reference: Lautenberg Amdt #362; Bill S. 254 ; vote number 1999-134 on May 20, 1999

-------------------------------

Voted NO on more penalties for gun & drug violations.

The Hatch amdt would increase mandatory penalties for the illegal transfer or use of firearms, fund additional drug case prosecutors, and require background check on purchasers at gun shows. .
Status: Amdt Agreed to Y)48; N)47; NV)5

Reference: Hatch Amendment #344; Bill S. 254 ; vote number 1999-118 on May 14, 1999

---------------------------

Voted NO on loosening license & background checks at gun shows.

Vote to table or kill a motion to require that all gun sales at gun shows be completed by federally licensed gun dealers. Also requires background checks to be completed on buyers and requires gun show promoters to register with the Treasury.
Bill S.254 ; vote number 1999-111 on May 11, 1999

-----------------------------

Voted NO on maintaining current law: guns sold without trigger locks.

Vote to table an amendment to make it unlawful for gun dealers to sell handguns without providing trigger locks. Violation of the law would result in civil penalties, such as suspension or revocation of the dealer's license, or a fine.
Bill S 2260 ; vote number 1998-216 on Jul 21, 1998

-------------------------------

Prevent unauthorized firearm use with "smart gun" technology.

Kerry signed the manifesto, "A New Agenda for the New Decade":

Make America the “Safest Big Country” in the World
After climbing relentlessly for three decades, crime rates started to fall in the 1990s. Nonetheless, the public remains deeply concerned about the prevalence of gun violence, especially among juveniles, and Americans still avoid public spaces like downtown retail areas, parks, and even sports facilities.

We need to keep policing “smart” and community-friendly, prohibiting unjust and counterproductive tactics such as racial profiling; focus on preventing as well as punishing crime; pay attention to what happens to inmates and their families after sentencing; use mandatory testing and treatment to break the cycle of drugs and crime; and enforce and strengthen laws against unsafe or illegal guns. Moreover, we need a renewed commitment to equal justice for all, and we must reject a false choice between justice and safety.

Technology can help in many areas: giving police more information on criminal suspects so they do not rely on slipshod, random stop-and-search methods; allowing lower-cost supervision of people on probation or parole; and making it possible to disable and/or trace guns used by unauthorized persons.

Above all, we need to remember that public safety is the ultimate goal of crime policy. Until Americans feel safe enough to walk their neighborhood streets, enjoy public spaces, and send their children to school without fear of violence, we have not achieved public safety.

--------------------------

* Goals for 2010 Reduce violent crime rates another 25 percent.
* Cut the rate of repeat offenses in half.
* Develop and require “smart gun” technology to prevent use of firearms by unauthorized persons and implement sensible gun control measures.
* Ban racial profiling by police but encourage criminal targeting through better information on actual suspects.
* Require in-prison and post-prison drug testing and treatment of all drug offenders.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

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[chiburb]

20. It's the convention bounce...n/t

[bobbyboucher]

21. Not the poll respondents,

the trolls.

[chiburb]

23. It was a joke. I meant "them" also.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[AuntPatsy]

22. LOL you aren't serious are you?

That old line of "Those dirty liberals wanna take our guns" is so old and so rediculous that I cannot even imagine that the right continues to use this old cliche.....

Omg, Id be one extremely wealthy woman if I had even one penny for all the times I have heard such nonsense in the past three years alone....

I have a family member down here in Texas, a lovely eighty year old man who is in my eyes one of a dying breed. I ran into him at a local store recently. I know he is a die hard Bush supporter and his main beef is the gun issue.

As we began having a conversation that pertained to his going to the rifle range for target practice he began a tirade against those trying to oust Bush out of office claiming his gun rights will be taken away..

Take into account, this man though a might up there in age is a very intelligent person, very knowledgeable in certain subjects yet from the old Texas school of hard knocks of being able to defend one's own homefront...

I was gentle with him, as anyone would have been, I was smiling because his attitude is well known, plus like myself he is oil, so I know all of those anti Kerry bs quotes that says he is against the oil man too. ;-)

He will vote and he more than likely will vote Bush, someone that age doesn't change overnight but I know he realized that all that spin coming from Faux is just that, we need oil, duh, we all drive cars, no party is planning to take that away, and as for guns..

LOL even Michael Moore is a member of the NRA, fact...

So relax, you can still hold onto your guns...as long as you don't use them illegaly, and that is a law from both sides and will continue to be..

Sheessh...

[LBJfan]

33. I am serious, or I wouldn't have posted...

Normally, the stuff he sends me I either don't care or can refute after spending two minutes with a search engine.

But I was having problems with this one, so came here for help.

Pretty much in vain, thanks. Unless "tough love" counts as help...

[Romulus]

25. I wouldn't worry about it

Pres. Kerry would not be "the government."

Besides, each of those NRA criticisms can be shown to be hot air.

[Rambis]

29. No worries

If you have any family memembers in law enforcement as I do you might want to tell them Bushco is going to let the assault weapons ban run out on September 13, 2004 and kevlar piercing bullets will be legal as well. Yippie! My two in-laws have 8 kids between them and I am worried about their safety not to mention the overtime they use to feed the family.

[Romulus]

37. I shouldn't go there, but not worried, either

I disagree with you about the implications of the end of the so-called "AWB." Just so you know: every rifle cartridge larger than .22lr will defeat soft body armor (including kevlar-based ones), including the cartridges commonly used for deer/elk/gopher hunting.

My LEO brother (the only registered Repub in my family, BTW) believes that the AWB was meaningless "because criminals don't follow laws." My beef is that the AWB is based on erroneous notions of what makes a firearm "more deadlier" than other firearms that do the exacy same thing in the exact same way.


I am more concerned about the overtime your in-laws have to work just to feed their families, levaing them less time to spend WITH their families. More Shrub-onomics at work, unfortunately.

[MrBenchley]

28. Too too funny....

I keep hearing that every gun owner isn't a paranoid right wing loony, but every damn one ofthem seems to spout this dishonest right wing crap at the drop of a hat.

"Kerry voted in 1985 to allow BATF to conduct unlimited warrant-less inspections of FFL holders."
Imagine that, somebody who thinks an inspecting agency ought to inspect gun stores to see if they're consucting business responsibly. Why would anybody need that?

"Take for example, Ricker says, the case of the Bulls Eye gun shop in Tacoma, Washington, which provided the rifle used by accused snipers John Muhammad and Lee Malvo in a terror spree last fall.
Over the previous five years, Bulls Eye sold at least 52 guns that were trace to crimes, a suspiciously high number. What's more, the ATF found that Bulls Eye had been unable to account for 238 missing guns, including the rifle -- made by Bushmaster -- that was used in the sniper shootings. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/09/60minutes/main553147.shtml

Bulls Eye also sold a gun to Buford Furrow..,you may remember Buford. He's the Aryan Nations guy who shot up the Jewish day care center and killed the Filipino postman in LA as a "wake up call to America."

And there's this...more recently...

"A Monroe man who shot and killed his 5-year-old grandson before turning the gun on himself last week had purchased the pistol less than three hours before the murder-suicide, police said.
But police said that because he bought the gun from a private dealer's personal collection, a background check and a so-called "cooling-off" period weren't required. Still, police said they have asked federal agents to determine whether any laws were broken in the sale. "

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002005208_gun14m.html

As it is now, dealers are no longer required to keep written inventory of their guns. Nor is the BATF allowed to inspect them without written warnings, and then only once in a 12 month period.

There are more gun dealers than there are McDonalds' and only a handful of agents inspecting them. In a recent trace of guns used in crime back to gun dealers, just 120 gun dealers sold 1 out of every seven guns criminals used...and of those 120 fewer than 1/3 had been inspected (but they ALL had violations).

It gets worse. The data for that trace of crime guns came from the BATF came from a lawsuit filed by the NAACP. The Republicans have since passed a law making it illegal for the BATF to release that data to the public.

And then there are thousands of people selling guns who call themselves hobbyists or collectors who sell guns at gun shows who are not subject to gun laws such as a mandatory background check...and sometimes, as we see from the strory about the guy who shot his grandson, they're licensed gun dealers too.

Thank the NRA and the GOP.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[LBJfan]

35. Who says I'm voting for the "fucknut"?

Nothing says I have to vote for anyone, if no candidate fully meets my wants and needs.

"Yellow-dog" I'm not. I'm quite sure the Party could have come up with someone less devisive on this volatile issue than Kerry appears to be.

I onestly would never have thought to look at that NRA page without that link sent in an email, but now that I have, I'm worried.

And so far, you guys have done little to assuage that.

I don't know why this place is now so combative and reflexively hostile, but it's very off-putting.

[AP]

32. Your enjoyment of your gun will not be reduced one iota by Prez Kerry, but

....you know what?

You're going to have more time and extra income to enjoy your sport when Bush is gone because America won't be turned into a wage-slave nation where everyone's working their asses off just to pay the rent or the mortgage.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[LBJfan]

38. I care.

I don't mind common-sense gun control measures. What I am worried about is that his voting record seems to show a reflexive tendency to ban anything put in a bill in front of him.

I want my semi-auto, three-round grousing shotgun. He voted to ban them.

His approach to "armor-piercing" ammunition was to propose banning ALL centerfire rifle rounds. There goes my deer season and my weekend range trips.

I don't know hwatever it is that you like to do, but if Kerry was for just banning it, all of it, would you "lay back and enjoy it"?

I was hoping for some info to refute this stuff to my friend, but nearly all I've gotten is platitudes and insults. Way to help out the team, guys.

[roseBudd]

39. Like I tell my proNRA dad who hates Bush

and will not vote for him.

Guns will never be banned in this country because it is impossible. Presidents do not make law, congress does. Think about it.

guns might as well be called the other 3rd rail in politics. there are too many out there already and they would never be able to take them away.

Psychopaths should not be buying their guns at gun shows.

Rosebud

[Romulus]

41. I'll give you counterpoints

His voting record makes John F. Kerry the most anti-gun Presidential nominee in United States history. Since his election to the U.S. Senate in 1984, John F. Kerry has cast 59 votes (NRA did not score 4 of them) on issues involving firearms rights and hunting.

These votes included votes to ban guns,
- he did vote to ban SOME guns, but so did many Repukes. I'm thinking of the soon-to-expire AWB.


to impose waiting periods on gun buyers,
- I think this was part of the original Brady Bill. The waiting period has been supplanted by the instant background check.

to financially punish gun manufacturers for operating a legal business
- this is against the lawsuit pre-emption bill, something I used to support. What changed my mind was that modern tort law holds EVERYONE accountable for foreseeable problems that they cause through their own negligence. Merely following the law isn't enough in some cases to defend against a claim of being negligent. Why should corporate gun makers be any different than corporate auto makers?


and to restrict the free speech of Second Amendment advocates.
- Campaign Finance Reform (embraced by many Rebubs)

In addition, Kerry currently is a co-sponsor of S. 1431, which would ban all semi-automatic shotguns, all detachable-magazine semi-automatic rifles and many other guns, calling the whole lot "assault weapons."
- an expanded AWB that does no such things as "ban everything": it makes a detachable magazine-fed firearm an AW only if there is one other "bad" feature like a pistol grip.

for a study of "armor piecing" ammunition—a vote he made moot a few minutes later by voting for a broad ban of center-fire rifle ammunition (Votes 27 and 28 in 2004 on S. 1805)
- Sens. Craig and Frist (both Repubs) introduced this bill; the "ban" on ammo only pertained to ammo specifically marketed as AP, not just any ammo that could defeat body armor

Kerry has a much more anti-gun record than 2000 Democrat Presidential candidate, Al Gore, Jr., who cast votes on 12 key issues before becoming part of the most anti-gun administration in history. Gore voted to protect Second Amendment rights five times on votes related to passage of the Firearms Owners` Protection Act and once to stop a semi-auto ban. Kerry opposed gun owners in each instance...
- I've got no info on this, FOPA was a 1986 law

Kerry voted in 2004 to ban most center-fire rifle ammunition, including the most common rounds used by target shooters and hunters. Kerry voted in support of Ted Kennedy`s amendment to S. 1805 that would have banned rifle ammunition
- again, the Frist & Craig bills I referenced just now

Kerry voted in 1985 to allow BATF to conduct unlimited warrant-less inspections of FFL holders. Well-documented and shocking BATF abuses of license holders were a primary reason the Firearms Owners` Protection Act was introduced in Congress and signed into law by President Reagan. Kerry was one of only 18 Senators to vote to allow such abuses—which liberal Democrat Congressman John Dingell called the acts of "jack-booted fascists"—to continue
- the ATF did have problems in the lat '80's with overzealousness. The "inspections" are par for the course in other goverment-regulated or licensed industries (pork processing plant, anyone!?), so big deal. An inspection is just to see that your records are up to date.

Kerry, unlike 56 of his fellow Senators, is not a member of the Congressional Sportsmen`s Caucus. With more than 300 members in the House and Senate, it is one of the largest Caucuses in the U.S. Congress, and is "open to Congressmen and Senators who are sportsmen or who support the concept of sustained use and wildlife management, even if they do not themselves take to the fields and waters to fish, hunt or trap."
- I've got no info on this

Kerry voted in 1999 against an amendment to the Juvenile Justice bill that called for increased mandatory minimum and maximum penalties for the illegal transfer or use of a firearm. Instead of supporting this legislation that focused its impact on criminals, Kerry supported broad regulation of law-abiding gun buyers.
- I don't like mandatory sentences, especially for juveniles, and I've got no info on this

In contrast, the year before Kerry voted to impose excessive penalties of a year in prison and a $10,000 fine on an adult if a juvenile gains access to their firearm, even by theft, and then merely displays it in a public place.
- this was a child access prevention bill, making it a crime for someone to allow a juvenile to gain access to their impropoerly stored firearm

Voted to spend $15 million intended for housing programs on ineffective gun buy-back programs.
- "ineffective" is relative. People should have an incentive to turn in unwanted firearms, especially if they don't know enough about gun laws concerning consignment sales by licensed firearms dealers.



Hope this helps :hi: