Did Clark kill the Kerry campaign?

[Lobo_13]

It seems to me that they are competing for the same demographic, military fetishists. People whose only concern about a candidate is whether he was in the military and fought in a war.

It's a serious question. How many people have been forced into a choice between one or the other?

[jmaier]

1. Military fetishists? LOL

No one looking to appeal to predominantly that crowd would be running for the democratic presidential nomination.

[Lobo_13]

4. I don't think he understands

the makeup of his support. Those seem to be the only people outside of MA that haven't abandoned him.

[Hoppin_Mad]

61. Why ! There seem to be plenty of Militarists right here -eom-

[Langis]

2. I think Dean had a little to do with it

But then Clark came in and killed it.

[Jerseycoa]

3. Kerry's my second

I don't feel forced at all, because Clark is the one for me, but I would support Kerry with no pain and actively if he won the nom.

[Lobo_13]

6. See? Splitting the difference.

There's only so many of those folks going around.

[JI7]

5. whatever

"It seems to me that they are competing for the same demographic, military fetishists. People whose only concern about a candidate is whether he was in the military and fought in a war."

not true, many of us support the candidate we do for many reasons other than just them having served in the military.

[Lobo_13]

7. but the prevailing theme from the candidates

is military service. God knows that Kerry beats the Vietnam thing for all he's worth. So does Clark with his service.

[Jerseycoa]

25. No

The prevailing theme is national security and foreign policy experience combined with liberal platforms. Not military service.

But carry on with your fun. :)

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lobo_13]

11. got nothing to be angry about

From all indications, my candidate will take it.

But it's a serious question, did Clark peel the supporters that would have otherwise voted for Kerry?

[SahaleArm]

22. I was leaning to Kerry because he was my home state Senator...

But I wasn't committed to any of the candidates. My opinion is that Kerry's campaign was not run as forcefully as it should have been. From the beginning he was in the lead but didn't take advantage of it; that's Kerry's fault as much as anyones.

[Lobo_13]

28. But if Clark hadn't entered the picture

would you have been behind Kerry?

[SahaleArm]

33. Edwards was still an option - But Kerry had a stronger campaign...

in the state of Washington and nationally. I can't say I had a strong preference between them; I would have been happy with a Kerry/Edwards ticket. As far as order of preference - Clark, Kerry or Edwards, Dean.

[maxr4clark]

31. BTW, I'm not a military fetishist

...that would be my Bush-loving brother.

[ModerateMiddle]

48. Actually

I think Clark took some supporters from everyone, including Dean. If what was attractive to voters was Dean being an "outsider", Clark challenged Dean's sole claim to that position. If Kerry's main appeal to someone was his military service, then Clark challenged that supremacy.

I have felt from the beginning (over a year ago) that this 2004 election is going to be about National Security. Maybe it won't be the PRIME focus, but it is the "ticket to admission". If the Dems nominate someone who isn't strong on Foreign Policy and National Security, the Bushies will make it the #1 thing on people's minds throughout 2004, by hook or by crook. If we nominate someone who is strong on those things, i.e. Kerry or Clark, other issues will get equal time.

Some of the Dean supporters absolutely deny that Dean's weakness in these areas will be a huge liability this cycle. They close their eyes to this reality at great peril.

[kixot]

9. "only concern about a candidate is whether he was in the military"

WTF are you talking about? Seriously, don't drink and post. Kerry's campaign may have lost some steam with the entry of an exciting and attractive candidate such as Clark but by no mean should you make the mistake in pigeon-holing supporters.

[Lobo_13]

10. and yet

that's the aspect that gets beaten to death by both candidates.

I was in the military. Vote for me!

[Jerseycoa]

12. Baloney

These are two great liberal guys with progressive ideas and programs. That they have national security and foreign policy experience is what tops the cake.

[Lobo_13]

14. you mean

the liberal who voted for more Republicans than Dems?

Or the one that's just been voting WITH them for the past three years?

[Jerseycoa]

21. Awww

You were just waiting to say that, weren't you, doll? :P

[Lobo_13]

30. Not waiting

It just came to me.

[ModerateMiddle]

49. I think you underestimate

that Clark's admission to having voted for Republicans gives a lot of disenchanted Republicans "cover" for switching from support for Bush to the Dem candidate. I truly believe that with Clark as the Dem candidate, many more R's would jump the Bush ship.

[ClintonTyree]

26. When exactly...............

did Clark become a Liberal?

[ModerateMiddle]

50. Clark, like Kerry, is a principle man

who has many high ideals. These ideals, at this time in history, match up much better with a liberal/progressive/and yes Democratic standard than anything the current administration offers.

I still prefer John Kerry, as I believe he is probably the best hope of this country, but I surely recognize Clark's appeal in a GE.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

13. Methinks you're being silly....

n/t

[Lobo_13]

17. It's a serious question

Did Clark peel a large number of supporters that would have otherwise went for Kerry?

[BootinUp]

15. Kerry's campaigning

Its not his policies, which are sound, its his campaigning, he would not be as strong against * as some others. Kerry was about my third choice. But to be honest I would be happy with whichever won wins the nomination.

[IndianaGreen]

16. Kerry's campaign was already moribund when Clark announced

Kerry cannot compete against Dean while Clark is in the hunt. Clark will not dropout for Kerry, and even if he did, it would not guarantee that Clark's supporters would transfer to Kerry.

Clark doesn't need Kerry. Kerry needs Clark to drop out.

[hellhathnofury]

18. So that's what he was shooting at...

Serious: It probably did take some away and certainly poisoned Kerry's well of potential supporters.

[maxr4clark]

19. No, Kerry did

All of the candidates are competing for the same demographic, the democratic voter. I believe Kerry lost his initial front-runner status long before Clark entered the race, because he spoke like a Senator speaks on the floor of the Senate instead of like a candidate speaking to prospective voters; and he has alienated some voters by viciously attacking Howard Dean.

If Clark had not entered the race, the two front-runners would be Dean and Gephardt. Don't get me wrong. I was predisposed to like Kerry because my wife spoke highly of him, but when I heard him speak, I couldn't figure out what he was trying to say. And I'm neither uneducated nor uninformed; I came "late" to the primary contest because I am working on my PhD. Since then, I have been seriously turned off by his vitriolic attacks on Dean.

[bain_sidhe]

27. Agreed

My first impulse was for Kerry, but I lost confidence that his campaign skills were up to the task of taking on Bush/Rove, and then I lost respect when his only response to his drop in the polls was to attack Dean. I'm not Dean's biggest fan by any means - he started and continues attack politics - but that is what sealed Kerry's fate for me. That's WHY I started looking around, and found that I really really liked what Clark was saying and doing.

[incapsulated]

20. "It's a serious question."

No, the thread title has a question in it. The rest is garbage.

:eyes:

[Clark4VotingRights]

23. Each served their country. Kerry undermined his own campaign w IWR.

Many people, including myself, consider that unforgivable.
That was Kerry's doing.
Undoing a great career as a caring and liberal Senator with one vote;
his doing and undoing.

[worldgonekrazy]

57. So you consider Kerry's vote for the IWR "unforgivable"

Yet it doesn't bother you that Clark was initially for the war, actually praised Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc. for having the gonads to carry it out, and even went so far as to whore himself out for the Admin on CNN?

Oh yeah, I forgot. He changed his mind right when he decided to run. How convenient.

[mitchum]

24. Kerry's decades-long liberal record is what I find attractive

I'm about as far from a military fetishist as one can be (although Hugo Boss did design some...well...boss uniforms)

[saltpoint]

35. I agree with --

-- your point on Kerry's long liberal record and I loved the pun, too.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

29. yes he did

i think your military fetishists point is right on. Why else would would somebody choose Kerry or Clark over Kucinich or Dean were it not for a distinguished military record? And who's accusing the military record as a mark of illegitmacy, nay, far from it. I dont think you were suggesting that at all.

Fact of the matter is whoever emerges I'm going with. Who cares, right, as long as Chimp knuckledrags back to Crawford.

[SahaleArm]

36. Kucinch and Dean aren't in the same ballpark let alone the same boat n/t

[Forkboy]

32. I disagree with the term you chose

but I do think that Clark has taken some of Kerry's support.And Kerry has just plain ole blew some of his support.

[Rowdyboy]

34. Your premise is false...Clark is my 1st choice

Dean 2nd, Edwards 3rd, Gephart 4th, and Kerry 5th. Military service is a small factor to consider overall, certainly not the determinant.

[Lobo_13]

37. exception to the rule

But I was more thinking of people who would gravitate towards Kerry if Clark was not in the race. Some people just don't care for John Kerry.

[Rowdyboy]

39. Very few Democrats make their decision primarily based on military service

My support of Clark arises from several different aspects of his personality that I appreciate.

[tokenlib]

38. Dean flew by Kerry and Kerry never recovered...

Honestly, the way the Dean campaign took off, energized people on the net and off it...the Kerry campaign never knew what blew by, never figured out what to do about it, and has never really recovered.

In brief, it was more what Dean did--the phenomena of his surge that may have mortally wounded Kerry. The endorsements that Kerry should have had--Dean got. The grassroots support that Kerry needed--Dean earned early.

Clark may have picked up a few Kerry supporters, but his arrival was long after the damage was done. If anything wounded Kerry, Lieberman and Gephardt--it was Dean sucking up so much of the available oxygen. Why did it happen?? Probably most of us would blame Iraq and the IWR.
Gephardt in the Rose Garden STILL angers me. And for many of us--there is no atonement for committing the sin of enabling Bush and his cronies.

[kerrygoddess]

40. Feminist, anti war, environmentalist for Kerry!

Thank You! Your theory is wrong.

[Skwmom]

41. Military fetishists?

I like both Clark and Kerry because they are both men of substance.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

42. military is just a bonus with Kerry

his long solid record is what really counts. Edwards and Clark are about even for me in the No. 2 spot.

[Hep]

43. Kerry's campaign was DOA.

You post this thread as if Kerry's campaign were ever alive.

[Walt Starr]

44. Yes

But it looks like Kerry is going to return the favor. Fortunately for the people, the DNC inside track candidates seem to have large egos.

[CWebster]

45. We gotta strut in front of the world in our jock strap, you know

No wonder the world isn't impressed.

The only people interested in men strutting around in their jockstrap and padded cod-pieces are other men who are interested in that sort of thing.

[blm]

46. You call supporters 'military fetishists' and claim a 'serious question'

You don't see the folly in that?

[sandnsea]

47. Only for myopic war vote people

That's the only benefit of Clark. For those who insist that the vote meant more than it did, Clark offers an out. He can be against the vote, argue his case that we should have continued focusing on Afghanistan, and present a different course on Saddam; without pissing off anybody. Hind sight is wonderful and Clark gets to make full use of it. So good for him, he'd be a great President.

I still prefer the guy with the 30 year liberal record and when push came to shove, put down his vote and stands by it.

[zulchzulu]

51. It's too early to tell. See what happens in Iowa

Kerry could come in a strong second or possibly even win in Iowa and change the entire dynamics of the election.

Polls show that many are still undecided there as well as New Hampshire.

Based on what I've heard in Iowa, people who ar leaning toward Gephardt have Kerry as their second choice. People who are leaning toward Dean have Kerry as their second choice.

With the way caucuses work in Iowa, the second choice can sometimes turn out stronger due to the fact that the winner has to have 15% to win that caucus. Kerry is picking up momentum and votes and could come out a winner.

The media would love to spin a new story outside of the Dean hype. Time will tell if Iowa shakes up the mix. Add that many who might be softly supporting Clark would easily back Kerry.

[Lobo_13]

55. Not quite

A candidate has to get at least 15% to get a delegate for the county convention. The winner needs a plurality.

So if Kerry gets 15% then he gets one delegate out of x, but it's usually around 10.

Kerry's constant attacks and poor appearances in Iowa have actually alientated him from Dean supporters. Edwards is the most likely 2nd, but it's irrelevant because every indication is that Dean will get a close second at the minimum.

[Padraig18]

52. FWIW, I've always thought so.

I think Clark clearly eroded Sen. Kerry's base, which is why I've found the attacks on Gov. Dean for somehow 'causing' the Kerry implosion puzzling. :shrug:

[Clark Can WIN]

53. This thread should be locked

I have to complain about this thread, it is insulting to both Kerry and Clark supporters and makes blanket assertions about both.

What if I were to start a thread that poroposed: "Did Dean kill the Kucinich campaign" And then proceeded to assert that they were both going for the same demographic of latte-sippers who are easily led, make good followers and are only concerned with party purity and a utopian peacenik world vision? It's a serious question. How many people have been forced into a choice between one or the other?

Same concept. Kind of insulting, no?

[jpgpenn]

59. I agree with you

I took this thread as a means for starting a rift between the Clark and Kerry folks. HMMMM I wonder what candidate supporter would start such a thing ( said sarcasticly )??

[LuminousX]

54. Yes

At a time when Kerry could have built a recovery strategy, Clark was taking up all the available media (that wasn't being given to Dean.) The secondary story became 'can Kerry maintain a lead against Clark' and the polls that showed Dean in +20 point leads focused on the #2 slot and kept saying Kerry and Clark were/are in competition. This only hurt Kerry more because he, for all intents and purposes, was supposed to be the front runner.

For the longest while the stories were about Kerry v. Dean. Now the primary stories are Clark v. Dean. Kerry has been dropped from the picture. He at least won't be served the indignity of being called a vanity candidate, but he is pretty far off the radar at this point. I believe the presence of Clark is the cause. Without Clark, the narrative would still be Kerry v Dean.

[jpgpenn]

56. Clark and kerry have a HIGH regard for 1 another

Why is it I take this post as some attempt at starting trouble amongst 2 very capable groups of campaigners?

[MoonRiver]

58. Kerry killed the Kerry campaign.

He voted for an unjust and illegal war, similar to the one he protested half a lifetime ago. I am extremely disappointed in Senator Kerry. If he had done the right thing, by voting against the IWR, he would be the front runner. I also don't believe Clark would have entered if he had thought there was a truly viable Democratic candidate around to fight *. Kerry blew it when he scrapped all his principles for political expediency. Oh, and did I mention that he sanctioned the murder of 10's of thousands of innocent civilians by allowing * to invade a sovereign country that was NO direct threat to US?

[JVS]

60. Yes. Kerry was the Walter Sobchak candidate, Clark stole his thunder.

[quaker bill]

62. Yes, but it is more than that.

Yes to the military thing. A strong appeal from both to the "strong on defense" crowd.

They are also similar on foriegn policy experience

They are also similar on policy proposals

Clark does not have the IRW albatoss around his neck. He has all of Kerry's percieved strengths without IWR.

The NH polls have been showing that as Clark rises, Kerry falls. They are working the same niche.

[shoopnyc123]

63. BAD HAIR DAYS FOR KERRY KILLED HIM. (eom)