How did this place look at this time in 2004?

[Bicoastal]

I wasn't here at the time. However, I'm sure very few people got called a "concern troll" back then, since there was so much to legitimately be concerned about...

Despite winning all the debates, Kerry was still a behind Bush after an initial bump. But it was still close, if I remember correctly--instead of thinking about 10 or 11 states, Democrats were fixated on two or three swings, plus blue states from 2000 that were threatening to go Red. I had the sinking feeling that, despite having a lot of respect for Kerry, nobody was quite convinced he was the answer to Bush.

But these were my observations in the real world, not on line. Can any DU old-timers help me out?

[NYC_SKP]

1. On Tuesday, October 12, 2004, DU looked like this:

:patriot:

http://web.archive.org/web/20041012080513/www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/

God love the "Wayback Machine"!!!



:patriot:

[Morning Dew]

4. couple more

thanks for that !

GD campaign 04
http://web.archive.org/web/20041127090614/www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=132

and GD
http://web.archive.org/web/20041010074247/www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=104

[AllentownJake]

9. Two bad you can't read the discussions

One in 2004 that says Barack Obama and the democratic party would have been a very intersting read. It also appears that there was defeatism going on back than.

[NYC_SKP]

12. I know, I was looking at November 1, day before election day.

And saw a thread about Obama...

Looks like the forum was down for a couple days right around then, too.

:patriot:

[Veruca Salt]

15. I wanted to read that one too, so I found it:

OP: Barack Obama and the Democratic party... Date: Fri Nov-26-04 03:04 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1391000

Wow was the OP of that totally off! Interesting to see how things have changed too.

Edit: For clarity.

[AllentownJake]

16. Well in 2004 I was living in Indiana

and if you told me an African American Democrat would be polling within the MOE of John McCain the GOP Vietnam war hero I would have told you, you needed to be committed. I would have said Kerry loses Hillary Clinton will be the democratic nominee.

Of course one poster nailed. it

"Obviously you don't live in downstate Illinois and don't know about all the toothless rednecks who like the guy and are going to vote for him"

On a side note. In my county in 2004 Barack Obama got 1 write in vote for President

[Veruca Salt]

26. Totally understandable

This election has shattered a lot of preconceived notions, and that is always a good thing.

And that person who wrote in Obama back in 2004? WAY ahead of the curve! :thumbsup:

[anonymous171]

17. Wow. Just wow.

Things sure have changed! :) :patriot:

[The Stranger]

21. "Defeatism going on back then"? But we WERE defeated.

Holy shit.

[AllentownJake]

23. I misread the date on the one with Obama

[TheDonkey]

24. It looks a little more somber, yes, not exactly defeatism but

there is an air of "gloomy" not the backslapping and in-your-face rethug bashing/mocking going on now. I just hope the party we are having on DU now lasts well past November 4th

[Bicoastal]

6. It seemed like NOBODY was posting polls back then!

Maybe they just couldn't bear to look at em!

[TheDonkey]

22. I honestly do not remember such a fixation with tracking polls and what not back then

I wasn't sure that polling was so prevalent but maybe you are right that DUers just didn't pay attention to them b/c JK must have been consistently behind.

The only poll I really remember feeling good about was the infamous "exit" poll. :(

[TheDonkey]

19. That is so fascinating. I was a DUer back then but really did forget

looked like most of it was about Dean lol. Nice to see an Obama thread in the mix. Certainly a more gloomy spirit than the more intense spirit in 2008.

[democrattotheend]

25. Here's an interesting post from that date

Titled "Barack Obama and the Democratic Party", 11/26/04:

"He seems like one of the good guys, however, the Democratic party damn well better get wise to the fact that he is NOT Presidential or VP material. He will have far less support than Kerry/Edwards. I'm sorry to have to slap you in the face w/ this, but the entire middle section of our country is way too bigoted to put him in office. They will come out in droves to defeat both him and Hillary. We need to be proactive on our pick for 2008. We also need to be realistic. If they have no chance, let's leave them to do the best job they possibly can in their current positions. give them our praise and our blessings as they deserve, but ALWAYS never lose sight of what wea are up against. When we get our man in office, he can promote the careers of those that put him there. Our man for 2008 must be near PERFECTION. Obama can do a great deal more for this country and our party in his current position. Putting him on a podium and declaring him the next Dem nominee for President is suicide for this party. THINK ABOUT IT! His name is enough to bring out every, toothless, redneck, KKK, gun-totin', member of the Republican party! BEFORE EVERY ONE OF YOU JUMPS DOWN MY THROAT, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THOSE VEIWS, BUT IT IS A FACT WE ALL NEED TO FACE BEFORE 2008 IF WE WANT TO TAKE THE WH BACK!"

Hopefully the OP learned: Underestimate Barack Obama at your peril.

[progressivebydesign]

2. I'm an "old timer" been here since 2001.

2004, at this time, was very similar to now in some ways. From what I remember... though Kerry was not doing as well in the polls, people were being a bit too exuberant, and we spent a lot of time trying to talk people down off the ceiling, and reminding them that as long as the polling was close enough to steal, we weren't out of the woods yet. Yes, there were concern trolls then, or accusations of that anyway, but people seemed more willing to listen to the concerns in 2004. I'm not sure what the difference is this time around, but there is much less tolerance for anyone straying from the party line now.

We were all pretty much on board with Kerry by this point.. all the primary nonsense had healed. This was a much much more difficult primary, but I think we've all come together quite well. The one thing that stands out GLARINGLY from 2004, is the giddiness and early celebrating that drove many of us insane. After 2000, most of us have learned that in this NEW America, you don't celebrate until it's absolutely, totally, and completely, a done-deal. Cuz we all know now that Bush's cousin who worked for Fox could call the election and Bush could take the White House on "equal protection" claims that he believed he had won (because his cousin called it for him) thereby suffering if it was taken away from him. And of course, in 2004, when Blackwell of Ohio earned his republican $$$$ by throwing things Bush's way.

Hope that helps.. it's my perspective anyway. :)

[Hokie]

27. I was around then and we ingnored the bad polls and picked good ones

I have looked back at the historical polls from 2004 and Kerry was never ahead by any margin after Labor Day. He pulled close the last week but not enough to win or prevent the theft, what ever you believe. I don't think the state polls ever looked very promising. This year is different. Obama is winning in the state by state polls that count and the other key factors such as enthusiasm, likability, and issue polls are good.

To sum it up: in 2004 I hoped Kerry would win. In 2008 I firmly believe that Obama will win.

[vi5]

3. It looked like this...

Poster group 1: "We're going to kick Bush's ASS!!!! Whoo hoo! Go Kerry."

Poster group 2: "No we're not. Never underestimate Rovian dirty tricks and republican sliming. They'll pull something out at the last minute!!! We'll be lucky to win this in a squeaker!!"

I think we know which group was right, but hopefully that same group will be wrong this time.

Oh yeah, the other big difference on DU was that we had 8 million "OMG IMUS IS BEING SUCH A REPUBLICAN WHORE SHILL TODAY!!! I AM MOST DEFINITELY WRITING A NASTY LETTER TO MSNBC!!!!!" posts per day rather thatn the 8 million "OMG MORNING JOE IS BEING SUCH A REPUBLICAN WHORE SHILL TODAY!!! I AM MOST DEFINITELY WRITING A NASTY LETTER TO MSNBC!!!!" that we have now.

[jobycom]

8. Pretty good summary.

:thumbsup:

There were people in the middle, who cheered for Kerry while expressing concern over various aspects of the election. And there were actual concern trolls. The imaginary sort hadn't been imagined yet.

[vi5]

10. Yeah, but the concern trolls now...

or what people are calling concern trolls don't seem to me to be so much saying "We need to do X, Y, or Z in order to win." when all evidence points to the contrary. They more seem to be saying "Let's not get complacent and worrying that people aren't working hard enough to seal the deal. I don't see that as concern trolling as much as pessimism.

[AllentownJake]

11. Glad to see the letter writing was effective

:rofl:

[Lex]

5. People were freaked that Kerry wasn't hitting back, that the MSM was still kissing Bush's

arse.

That Chris Matthews let the Swift Boaters on his show and hardly called them on their lies.

It was awful.

[Democat]

18. Yes, many people were concerned that Kerry wasn't going on offense!

Kerry, and he would have made a great president, seemed too comfortable running his campaign on the defensive. The way you win is on offense.

Obama has been more aggressive, though I think he has been more strategic than just brutally offensive. Whatever works to win is fine with me.

[Fleshdancer]

7. I was one of those "stop worrying" types in '04. Didn't work out so well for me.

I don't recall DU using the word "concern" so much though. Since I was so confident Kerry would win, I don't mind the concern this time...especially after seeing the McCain mob videos on YouTube.

I do recall people were worried about the October surprised in '04. Many of us were convinced OBL would suddenly be captured and paraded in front of the tv for everyone to see right before the election. I also recall a lot more threads on black box voting.

[jobycom]

13. The evolution of concern trolls.

There were concern trolls back then, but the term was used for the real thing, not as a juvenile insult to avoid a discussion. Back then, genuine disrupters (which used to mean someone who came to DU posing as a liberal just to post Republican propaganda) were pretty obvious. Something like "I"ve always been a Democrat and I hate Bush and our troops and war and corporations and stuff, but I'm very concerned that Bush's success with the economy and Iraq will make people vote for him. Can anyone tell me how Bush has failed so I can tell my Repig friends how they are wrong?"

Nowadays there's the Concern Troll Bully Brigade who leaps out with "Thanks for your concern" posts every time someone starts a serious discussion. To my mind, those are the disruptors. The term, like most terms, no longer has meaning. It's just an insult hurled to silence an argument--a corollary of Godwin's Law.

[vi5]

14. Exactly....

...People making posts about how we shouldn't get complacent and should continue to act as though we're 10 points down rather than 10 points up, and urging that we focus more on keeping our lead stable and steady between now and election day rather than popping the champagne now are expressing a well learned and understandable skepticism.

A concern troll would be just as you described them, someone saying "If we don't change course now we are doomed. I know a guy who knows a girl who has an uncle who says if we don't do this that or the other thing that he won't vote for Kerry!!!"

I don't see a lot of the latter on here. And while the former can be discouraging, I think it's a healthy attitude to have and will keep us on our toes.

[TheDonkey]

20. I think the lack of enthusiasm by a lot of DUers for JK led to more "concern"

and dissonance allowed in the discussion. Since the feelings for Obama are so intense I think we have crusades against concern trolls now much more seriously then back in 2004 and the contentious PUMA/long primary is also adding more intensity to force unity now. The good thing about that though is that UNITY really is an issue to puch when in 04 we ignored it at our own peril(and democrats voted for Bush).