What do you say when a Bush supporter engages you on the topic

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

of why they should not vote for Bush or why they should vote for Kerry? Or why you are voting the way you are?

Assume the person is not a close friend or family member who you may have opportunity to engage in a sustained dialogue with.

I think keeping it simple is good. If I know anything about the person's personal circumstances I may ask the question "are you better off now than you were four years ago?". If I don't know anything about them I will ask if they think America is better off than when Bush took office or not, and whether it is going in the right direction, and suggest to them that their vote should be based on that. Had one person repeat the ridiculous (but broadly promoted these days) idea that Bush should be given a chance to "finish what he started." I pointed out that when people screw up royally, the usual, and appropriate, response, is to fire them, and that is what we should do in NOV.

I also try to keep it to one simple point, focusing on the "original sin" of the Bush II administration, the invasion of Iraq. I tell them simply that I think the war is wrong both strategically and morally, and initiating a war like this is the worst possible way someone could misuse the power of the presidency, and that on that issue alone the strongest argument exists for the removal of Bush.

My point is, with strangers or casual acquaintances, complex or multifaceted arguments are not possible. I feel that simple concepts are likely to work best. "Invading Iraq was wrong, it is a moral and economic disaster for America, and Bush led us into it." "America is worse off than 4 years ago and drifting into even worse territory. Accountability demands removal of the man at the top."

[swag]

1. I try to keep it simple:

1000 US Troops Dead, No Weapons of Mass Destruction. That's no way to use our military.

and

Half a trillion dollar deficit; that's a conservative?

[swag]

12. Sorry to respond to my own post

but when I give my first point, most Republicans I talk to sadly nod and finish the statement with me: "No weapons of mass destruction."

Most of them seem to have forgotten the record deficits, so they look a little stunned when I give them that line. Then I add, "and that's with Republicans running Congress."

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

15. Yes, pointing out that Repubs have Exec/Congress/Senate is good too.

[MrBenchley]

2. My own reply is simple....

I say "Go to the candidate's websites." Kerry and Edwards have a strong program of specific proposals to make America stronger and improve the country. Bush and Cheney have nothing but attacks on John Kerry.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

17. I don't like this as much, because unless you give them SOME argument,

ANY argument, they are NOT going to go home and look at the candidate websites. Not JK's anyway.

Now, if you are sitting near a computer with internet access, that's another story...

[topanga]

3. It is very simple.

I am a democrat, always have been always will be.

Democrats care about people, I am willing to pay 100% of my income to help other people, and I know the government shoudl be a force for good in peoples lives, there are basic human rights that people have, that government needs to proved, it needs to give free health care to all people in the united states, the government needs to get free medicines to all people, and the governemnt needs to punish evil (repub controlled) drug companies. Governemnt needs to protect the environment, it needs to lower the cost of gasoline and it needs to punish evil (repub controlled) gas companies!

There is an almost unending list of things that the governemnt can do for us, and John Kerry is the man I am backing to get that ball rolling, the shrub sure doesn't care.

[Clinton Crusader]

4. A dr. - the other day

I had an MRI the other day, OK, I guess he wasnt a DOCTOR, a tech guy, and I had a Kerry/Edwards shirt on and he said "What would you say if I said I was a * supporter?" I said, "I would say you were making a big mistake. I can elaborate if you have a minute." He smiled a condescending smile and said, "No, that's OK."

grrrrrrr:mad:
:kick:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

10. It is really irresponsible for people involved in health care to initiate

ANY kind of political schmooze with the patient, in my opinion. Even if it is initiated or solicited by the patient I personally feel it is best avoided. And especially when the guy basically knows from your shirt that you feel differently from him. This sort of unprofessional crap really pisses me off.

[JPJones]

It's all the lying, stupid.

Memorize these numbers

- 25,000 liters of anthrax
- 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin
- 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent


Cheney: “Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein
now has weapons of mass destruction.”
—Speech at VFW 103rd Natl. Convention, Aug. 26, 2002
(There were numerous doubts. Cheney met secretly with
the CIA to pressure them into producing intelligence that
would justify invading Iraq.)

Colin: “On the left is a close-up of one of the four chemical
bunkers. The two arrows indicate the presence of sure
signs that the bunkers are storing chemical munitions.”
—Remarks to the United Nations, Feb. 5, 2003
(The bunkers were not storing chemical munitions. No
stockpiles of banned weapons have been found in Iraq.)

Rumsfeld: “We know that {Saddam} has an active program for the
development of nuclear weapons.”
—Interview with Infinity-CBS Radio, Nov. 14, 2002
“We know where {the weapons} are.”
—This Week with George Stephanopolous, ABC, Mar. 30 2003
(They “knew” nothing of the kind.)

Condi: “In retrospect, knowing that some of the documents…
were, indeed, forgeries…had we known that at the time,
we would not have put it in. And had there been even a
peep that…the director of Central Intelligence did not
want it in, it would have been gone.”
—Face the Nation, CBS, July 13, 2003
(The director of Central Intelligence had written Ms. Rice in
October 2002 that the claim was in doubt. CIA Director Tenet
also called Ms. Rice’s deputy to warn against using the
claim. They used it anyway to bolster their case for a war.)

Bush: “The British government has learned that Saddam
Hussein recently sought significant quantities of
uranium from Africa.”
—State of the Union Address to Congress, Jan. 28, 2003
(Bush had been told the Niger uranium claim was in doubt,
but needed to justify invading Iraq. Our government misled
the British government.)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

18. This seems to me like a bit too much for the average Bush supporter

to hang onto, especially if you're just talking to them somewhere.

[JPJones]

20. The first four lines should be enough

The rest is for your own edification.

[ClassWarrior]

Simple is the key!

The RW propaganda machine is soo good at crafting their message to be simple and relatable. It's a skill more of us need to learn.

[wolfgirl]

5. I just say

both my sons are in the military...I want their service to mean something other than lining the pockets of the super rich.

[merh]

6. Yesterday I was attending a neighbor reunion. Most of the folks

that were there were the free spirit, anti-establishment types when we were growing up. One would assume they grew up to be liberals, but to my dismay, that ain't the case.

I was talking politics with my sis when a fellow come up that I would have thought would be anti-war, anti-*. He joined us and he wouldn't say anything, just kept making faces. I asked him who he was voting for, he said there is only one republican in the race so he was voting for him.

I asked him the obvious, why, does he believe the nation is better off now than it was 4 years ago? He just said he votes republican. I asked him how he feels about his kids being drafted, he said that he has brought them up to be independent and if they have to fight, so be it. He will not try to run their life. He will vote republican.

Some folks there is just no sense in trying to talk to them. This guys was one of them. :shrug:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. I agree

I think it is important when talking with relative strangers that you ascertain that which concerns them-and it could be any number of things.

They could be mad about taxes-I can show them that any 'tax cut' they got from the Feds was offset by rises in state and local taxes, then segue into how many Federally mandated programs are underfunded.

They could be concerned with the military-what I emphasize is how veterans and the military is being treated by Bushco. How they say one thing but do another. I love to cite the DAV and American Legion as my sources, as the conservatives can't say they are biased sources.

They could be concerned about elderly issues-this is where I mention the hike in Medicare, the prescription drug debacle, etc, etc.

They could be one issue voters-all they want is someone who is "right to life". I mention the fact that Bush supports invetro fertilization, which "kills" all those "babies" every year-I know this argument won't help get Kerry a vote, but it might get some extremist to vote third party, which is better than them voting Bush.

[TriMetFan]

8. I hit them were it counts.

I ask if they have kids. If they say Yes I say get ready for your kid to fight in Iraq ,Iran or may-be even Korea. That most of the time gets them to stop and say there is no way in hell they are going to vote for Bush. I have noticed that its o.k. for other peoples kids to spill their blood as long as its not their own kids dying. And if it a Seniors I always ask if they are enjoying having to pay more for there meds.:evilgrin:

[wtmusic]

9. Where do I start?

How about a record $500B budget deficit?
How about forcing Congress to extend the nation's debt ceiling, interest on which is now the second biggest expenditure (after defense) in the US budget?
How about invading a sovereign nation in violation of the UN Charter and without just cause, killing over 50,000 including 1,000 Americans?
How about the worst environmental record in modern history (abandonment of Kyoto accords, drilling in AWR, gutting of EPA, appointing industry lobbyist Gale Norton as Secretary of the Interior, abandoning mandatory limits on CO₂ emissions)?
How about the first net job loss since the Depression?
How about failing to catch the #1 perp in the "war on terror", Osama bin Laden?
How about throwing out 28 years of progress in controlling nukes by abandoning the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty?
How about pushing through a tax cut, 43% of which benefits the richest 1% of the nation, paid for by raiding Social Security to the tune of $300B over three years and shifting the remaining tax burden to the middle class?
How about creating a drug plan for seniors which specifically prohibits Medicare from bargaining with drug companies over prices?
How about cutting $700 million in funding for public housing repairs?
How about cutting $39 million in federal funds for libraries?
How about promising to fund No Child Left Behind then cutting its budget by $90 million?

Koko the Clown would make a better president

[havocmom]

11. Ask them if the nation and the world is better off now than it was 4 years

ago. Laugh hysterically and leave if they say 'yes'.

[HamstersFromHell]

13. Play their own narrowminded game against them.

Since some of them seem to use the excuse of poor riding entitlement programs as a weapon, tell them why is *Bush running what'll end up being a 100 billion entitlement program for Iraqis? ("The best educational system, the best hospitals and medical care,..." etc.)

Sometimes the truth isn't enough, you have to hit them where their own bigotry lies.

[sandnsea]

14. Bush does not represent American values

Bullying foreign policy, abandoning workers, giving our lands to corporate interests, horrific on the environment, Christian right. That's what I tell them and that John Kerry is the polar opposite and has been at the forefront of many policies that have made our country better. Women's victims units, cops on the streets, acid rain, Vietnam vets benefits, small business, CHIP program, etc. Usually they agree that I have some points, but at the very least, the shut the hell up about how wonderful George Bush is.

[topanga]

16. Exactly.

Just point to Theresa and ask, who supports more immagrants than the other?

[randr]

19. Ask them who comes to mind when the hear the word "idiot"!

or for that matter:
Liar
AWOL
Tax-Dodger
Illiterate
Hypocrite
Warmonger
etc., etc.

[Bandit]

21. Deficit....Debt

The US is deeper in debt today than at any other time in history including WW I....WW II... Korea.....Vietnam.....Civil War.... War of 1812...... at no other time in our history has spending been so reckless.

[Morning Dew]

22. With strangers, I say " I can't vote for Bush this time."

This allows them to think that I DID vote for him last time. With strangers, I NEVER speak disrespectfully about W. I stress the deficit and the National Debt{which their children will still be paying for), I tell them Afghanistan was the right thing to do and Iraq was misadventure (I mean, where's Osama).
I mention that Bush is sending us down the wrong road and it's time to give someone else (or "the other guy") a chance.

A little stealth is good.

[kwolf68]

23. Get the Hell Away From Me

If the person is genuinely interested in learning my perspective then I am very interested in a discussion. If they want to exchange ideas in a peaceful manner I am great.

However, if they are a brainless Bushbot I am not wasting my breath anymore.

I had a friend at a fantasy football draft confront me about my bumpersticker...

"You're voting for that lying commie?"

I just responded "GET THE HELL AWAY FROM ME" ---