Obama is not center right.

[cali]

I find the argument that Obama is center-right, to be as ludicrous as the argument that he's radically liberal. And both come from people who create their own narratives with little regard for reality or facts- and unabashedly dismiss any fact that doesn't fit their preferred narratives.

How can I say that Obama is not center-right? Because the majority of his policies don't fit any reasonable discription of being center-right policies. I'm not claiming that all of his policies aren't center right, but the majority certainly are not.

Like what, you may ask. Like, environmental policy, like energy policy, like his philosophy on the judiciary, like his policies re job creation and education, like his stance on FOCA and DOMA, like his support for Unions and card check. None of these can remotely be called center-right. His policy on Afghanistan? It's not one that's held by most of the left. Call it center-right, if you will. I won't argue with that. But beyond that, and arguably Iraq, his foreign policy isn't center right. He doesn't demonize other nations. He's expressed a strong preference for diplomacy over the use of the military.

I don't hold much with labels. I'm not convinced they're terribly useful, but if Obama were to be labeled anything, I'd say labeling him center-left would be pretty accurate. His voting record in both Illinois and the U.S. Senate reflects that. He was never the most liberal Senator, but he was, in his tenure, in the 10 or 15 most liberal- and that's according to ADA rankings.

I realize this post won't make any difference to those that have decided that Obama is just right wing tool, but hey, neither will anything else.

[Captain Hilts]

1. The turn on FISA, the DC gun ban, the Cuban embargo and campaign finance...

ALL took a right turn after he got the nomination.

He's a politician.

[ProSense]

12. Not a single one of those is valid.

All nonsensical spin. Everyone knows why Obama voted for FISA. It was political, and he deserves criticism for the vote.

Still, there is no proof that he reversed his position on any of those issues. Campaign finance?

[Captain Hilts]

19. He said in Oct of 07 he'd not only vote against FISA, he'd lead a filibuster against it.

He's a politician.

He supported the DC gun ban during the DC/MD/VA primary. He supported the Supremes' striking down of the ban once he was the nominee.

FDR wouldn't support the anti-lynching bill because of 'politics'.

'Politics' makes people do strange things, including Obama.

[LaydeeBug]

45. well said. Saying Obama wasn't against FISA before he was for it just makes NO Sense.

Calling it politics is just bullshit.

[ProSense]

2. Of course he's center right

and Hillary is a Republican and Mary Landrieu is a wingnut. :sarcasm:



People are ridiculous.

[wyldwolf]

3. he's a centrist. Some on DU don't believe they exist, but he's a classic example of one

[cali]

4. As I said, he's center-left

if you have to use labels. I think there's ample evidence both in his life and his record to demonstrate that, but the trouble with labels is they omit any complexity. And Obama is a complex person.

[wyldwolf]

5. hard to tell. It's a very complicated equation

First you have to line up liberal positions and conservative positions on all the issues in separate columns. Then you have to assign a measure of importance to each issue, then as you check off which positions he's liberal or conservative on, you start adding up points under each respective column. Once you're done, you'll get a final score and see how many points he's to the left or right of the center...

... or you could just not bother and be glad we got him and not McCain. :)

[saracat]

6. He is a politician. Period.

[cali]

8. no, he's a human being before anything else. Saying someone is

just this or just that, is rather meaningless. Of course, you don't believe that JE is a politician. period. And he's not. Nor is Bernie Sanders or Ted Kennedy or Pat Leahy.

[saracat]

66. Sure I do. They are all politicians first and do what is best for themselves. And yeah, they are

human. So what?

[tigereye]

7. only here (and some other sites) would anyone be calling him center-right.

It's absurd.

[Lautremont]

13. Within the narrow spectrum of American politics he no doubt seems very liberal.

Taking a broader view, he's patently centrist, if not slightly right-leaning in many regards.

But I do agree that these sorts of labels vastly oversimplify matters. I do give Obama plenty of credit for, among other things, being a complex individual.

[WI_DEM]

10. JFK was a centrist too

[WI_DEM]

9. yet it was also said he had the most liberal voting record in the senate.

[cali]

11. just by National Journal, and they said the same about Kerry

It's purely a political move by a right wing rag to tag the dem nominee as the most liberal.

[Captain Hilts]

20. Tell Feingold and Leahy that!

His voting record was identical to Clinton's.

[WI_DEM]

25. So his overall record is liberal just as Clinton's is?

[karynnj]

30. He was more liberal than Clinton

"Barack Obama of Illinois had the most liberal voting record in 2006. He was more liberal than 86 percent of the Senate. Chris Dodd of Connecticut was close behind - achieving a mark of 84 percent more liberal. Joe Biden of Delaware rated 77.5 percent. Hillary Clinton of New York had the lowest overall liberal score in 2006, clocking in 70.2 percent."

Note this means that overall 13 Democratic Senators were more liberal than Obama, and 31 less liberal.

They also have a paragraph that better explains where HRC was:
"Clinton's liberal streak is most evident on social votes where her 80 percent score in 2006 ranks only behind Dodd's 93 percent. She ranks least liberal among the four Democratic senators running for president on economic (63 percent) and foreign (62 percent) issues." (You might note that in 2006, there were 55 Republicans - a score (read the article)of 62 means that she was the 38th most liberal person in the Senate on foreign policy issues - with 37 more liberal Democrats and just 7 Democrats less liberal than she was.


http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2007/03/mirror_mirror_on_the_wall_whos.html

[Captain Hilts]

41. It depends on how you look at it. But their voting records were nearly identical...

Iraq War funding, social issues, all the majors.

[Lasher]

14. Center-right is dog whistle for Republican.

This is coming from Republicans in denial. That's why you also hear pundits claiming that 'the USA is center-right.' Not after last month, assholes. Democrats, Obama included, are generally center-left.

Wikipedia comparison of US Political Parties

[Laelth]

64. The U.S. is center-left too, if we must use labels.

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Lasher]

68. Partisan Identification: 50% Democrats, 35% Republicans

And the trend favors the Democratic party.



Pew Research

Rasmussen

Gallup

Good article BTW. Cenk Uygur got it exactly right.

[Laelth]

69. Nice graph, thanks.

Yes, I love that essay. Cenk is spot on, as he often is.

:dem:

-Laelth

[harun]

15. Correct, he is not center right.

I call him Pragmatic Left. A lefty that doesn't make adversaries out of everyone who disagrees with there world view. Instead works to get them on board to accomplish the mission.

[Jennicut]

16. In pure ideological terms Obama is a moderate to liberal

He is not in the DLC, he is not center left. He is to the left of center left. Its complicated but it makes sense to me. He is to the left of Hillary and Bill, which is obvious. He is not the most liberal of the liberals but he is still pretty darn liberal. That is good enough for me. And the Campaign finance argument can go kiss my ass. For years Rethugs had the money advantage and for one year they don't and they go cry about it. Elections will never be fair with Rethugs involved. Obama HAD to go with not funding his campaign through public funds to have a chance.

[mmonk]

17. Obama will define himself.

[FrenchieCat]

18. I believe him to be a Left to Center........in his heart and past lifetime deeds,

and his encompassing philosophy.

I believe him to be a liberal in the sense that he listens with an open mind...which is what liberalism is all about.

I'm going to stay away from labeling him any further, and pray that he will defy labeling during his term(s) except to hope that he will one day earn the label as one of the greatest Presidents that these United States has ever experienced.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. It is statements like this that confirms that there is no viable left in the US.

International finance/trade? Center right.
Use of the armed forces as a diplomatic tool? Center.
Health care? Center to center right.
Education? Center to center left.
Judiciary? Center.
FISA? Center right.

Frankly, we have no 'left' to compare him to in this country. By the standards of most civilized countries, which have a viable left, he would, indeed, be a center right politician.

Has he come out against the World Bank, the IMF, and the coercive economic policies they promote? THAT would be the left position.
Has he suggested that we should close all our foreign military bases, and brought our armed forces home? THAT would be the left position.
Has he promoted a real Universal Health Care plan which eliminates the participation of the health insurance industry? THAT would be the left position.

And on, and on.

Only in the US would he be called an ANYTHING left.

[ProSense]

23. "By the standards of most civilized countries...he would, indeed, be a center right" Problem:

most people making that claim in the media and press aren't comparing him leaders in other countries.

Obama by US standards in not center right.

[cali]

24. Obama's rhetoric doesn't support your assertations. Nor does his Senate

record. You provide no evidence or examples. Let me just point out that I agree that he's likely centrist in his foreign policy. Trade? Center to center left. He supports workforce and environmental protections. How is that center right? The Judiciary? He supports Justices like Breyer and Ginsberg. That's center to center left. His environmental positions? Center left. Global climate change? Scientifically based. His energy plans? center left. Social issues? center left.

And sorry, the U.S. is where we are.

[Orsino]

22. Sure he's center-right.

He doesn't seem to be a tool of the Right, though. I believe that his pragmatism will make him look a bit lefty.

Will he toss the lobbyists out of Washington? Will he support single-payer universal health care, or same-sex marriage? I doubt it.

[cali]

26. You can't toss the lobbyists out of D.C. They're protected by the

Constitution. Supporting single payer wouldn't move us toward single payer at this time. And while he may not support same sex marriage, he supports repealing DODT. Those are not center-right positions.

[Orsino]

31. Those are center-right positions...

...whatever his justification.

[cali]

34. bwahahaha. never mind the Constitution. oh, and sorry, but

repealing DODT is NOT a center right position, no matter what you say.

[Orsino]

38. A liberal mind would recognize that corporate lobbyists are the enemy of democracy.

Obama hasn't mustered much in the way of opposition to them, and so his position isn't really liberal--though his refusal to take such money himself, and his influence on the Party to do the same, are impressive.

Repealing DADT isn't a liberal position, either, as Obama hasn't framed it as a civil-rights concern. I'll be more impressed when his Secretary of Defense gets rid of "homosexuality is incompatible with military service." That would be liberal, but Obama still lacks the political capital and/or courage to champion full equality. I'm still impressed that he'll mention the subject at all.

[RaleighNCDUer]

39. Repealing DADT is pragmatic, not left or right. It is a policy which does not work

and has not worked since its inception. It does not secure the right of gays to serve, closeted, as it was intended to do.

And what does the constitution have to do with institutionalized bribery?

EDIT to correct DADT - momentary confusion with DOMA, which he supports repealing WITHOUT supporting gay marriage. Hardly a left position.

[cali]

42. repealing DADT is something the right- including the center-right

opposes vehemently. And the first amendment protects speech and lobbying is considered political speech by the SC and has been for a long time.

And the right also vehemently opposes the repeal of DOMA. If only by default, those positions are held only by the left and a small number of libertarians.

[RaleighNCDUer]

53. I don't know why you think the right likes DADT.

Sure, it supports the contention that open gays are a threat to the military. But that contention remains with or without DADT.

The INTENT of DADT was to keep closeted gays IN the military. Don't ask (preventing the military or a military member's superiors from investigating a suspected gay) Don't tell (admit to nothing, they can't touch you). The only thing the right likes about DADT is that it does not address the constitutionality of kicking known gays out, and it still confirms the second class status of gays.

But without DADT the military could legitimately go back to how they did it before (which in reality they never stopped) of open persecution of suspected gays, of witch hunts, of detailing military intelligence to watch gay bars for the come and go of gay servicemen - all of which DADT is supposed to have stopped.


There is maybe the issue - there are different 'right' and 'left' definitions, and they do not always corrolate. There is right-authoritarian (statist i.e. fascist) and there is right-libertarian, and there is left-liberal, left-libertarian (which is not the same thing) and even a left-authoritarian (statist i.e. communist). Because Obama is not a right authoritarian in the mold of the present government you see him as completely different, when he is actually a kind of leftish right-libertarian.

He is not a socialist - he doesn't have a socialist bone in his body. He doesn't want real universal healthcare, he favors international free trade, he has never said a word against the world bank or the international monetary fund.

And you know what? We on the left will not be disappointed when he does not present us with universal health care or gay marriage - we never expected him to. We only expect him to be better than the republicans.

[zulchzulu]

37. Single-payer universal health care and same-sex marriage are a dozen years or more away

Most people, whether moderate or left, know that single-payer universal health care and same-sex marriage reform are not going to happen any time soon.

Is it a shame? Yes.

In order for single-payer universal health care to happen, a LOT of chiseling away at the pharmaceutical industry and the insurance industry needs to be done. It will unfortunately have to be incremental, due to absolutely powerful lobbies that will hold on to every last molecule of control they can.

In order for same-sex marriage laws to reform, it's going to take incremental legislation like domestic partnerships and civil unions to come into law. Reframing the term "gay marriage" needs to be done. We have to wait for the older generations to die off... it's a fact that is tragic, but a reality.

There is the need to have reforms like single-payer universal health care and same-sex marriage. Then there is the reality of actually getting enough votes in both houses to pass legislation... it's like the dreamer facing the pragmatist. The dreamer eventually wins... in time.

You can be for single-payer universal health care and same-sex marriage... but you can also look at the actual reality of it happening in the immediate future. What do you do if you are in a position to govern on these issues? As is nearly always the case with turning the tide on such issues, it's about incremental legislation where people of all political stripes work together to make change. That's how democracy generally works.

[Orsino]

40. As are real liberals in national office, I'm afraid.

Obama's a wily one, though. I think he's going to lead us in that general direction without most of us noticing it in some important ways.

He may be a great president if he can only open the door to progressivism.

[zulchzulu]

54. "without most of us noticing it"...

That's my hope.

The only way to get to have progressive legislation passed is to steal a page from the Bush Administration and Fred Luntz's framing/branding and get nice innocuous names to legislation like single-payer being called "Open Health Initiative" and allowing gay marriage with something like the "Respect Act"...

That's how you get 'er done.

[Zynx]

49. Those last two things aren't politically feasible.

[Orsino]

55. And yet they describe his positions.

I know he doesn't really hate the gays. I know these positions are designed to broaden his appeal.

[Freddie Stubbs]

27. Only those who think that Dennis Kucinich is in the center would think that Obama is center right

[alwysdrunk]

29. You say "only those" like it's a small number

Not on DU it's not. I've seen Kucinich described as a moderate or a moderate liberal here many times.

Like the OP said "...people who create their own narratives with little regard for reality or facts....."

[RaleighNCDUer]

36. Only those who think that Dennis Kucinich is a far lefty would think

that Obama is not center right.

[bvar22]

62. Only those who think Bill Clinton was a Liberal....

...would say that Obama is a CenterLeft.

[mvd]

28. In America now, he's center-left

Pre-Reagan era, probably center.
Compared to Europe, he might be center-right.

Maybe that's where we have to be in America BEFORE we go to all the way to the left. After all, under Bush, we were EXTREMELY right wing.

[Odin2005]

32. He was a community organizer who read Alinsky. That makes it pretty dang obvious.

The man is a LIBERAL, period.

[zulchzulu]

33. What's the "center" anyway these days?

The term "the center" is an ever-changing political zone, especially these days.

Conservatives within the moderate stripe (which are a lot of Americans) are fiscal conservatives, for a clean environment, are "pro-life" yet are for Roe vs. Wade, are against most wars, are for the middle class to be rescued from Bush policies, are for educational reform and generally respectful of church-state issues, are for healthcare reform and are even for more fair marriage policies.

Many of these people have gone through a political transformation since 2000, where many voted for Bush. They now hate him and his policies. They voted for Obama or were close to doing it. Needless to say that "the center" has shifted more to the "left" since 2006.

Are these people "center"? Probably. Is Obama "right" of this "center"? In no way.

Obama is a moderate in most cases with some very open "left" ideas on policies like healthcare reform, foreign policy and other issues.

[mvd]

35. I think it's mainly perception that defines it

This country has become center-right IMO, so Obama would be center-left now and not just center.

But on DU, I've even been called center while supporting things like single-payer health care, 75% tax rate after earning multi-millions, ending the death penalty, supporting peace unless the country or world is in grave danger, etc.

[mtnsnake]

43. Sometimes labels suck

especially in the manner that they're so often used on this forum (I'm not referring to you, btw, quite the contrary).

Some of the people who are so eager to label others or even themselves are some of the most narrow-minded people I've ever seen, or if not narrow-minded, then "self-limiting" by virtue of the label itself.

Once you've labeled yourself or someone else, you've limited that person to the confines of a label. I'm sure there are some good "liberals" who might have a conservative bone or two in their body and vice versa.

The funniest thing is when I see someone run around this forum bragging about what a pure liberal or lefty they are. Whenever that happens, red flags should start popping up all over as to their sincerity. There is no reason to run around bragging about a political label, other than maybe trying to prove something about yourself or someone else that doesn't really exist. Unfortunately, the easiest way to run someone down or build themselves up is by pasting an unnecessary political label on another person or themselves.

Part of why Obama appeals to me so much is because he doesn't seem to impose self-limiting labels on himself. I don't know if Obama is center right, center, center left, or to the far side of the moon. All I know is that he appears to be open-minded right now. His legacy will be decided by time, not labels.

[JuniperLea]

44. Down with labels!

I agree. They are limiting and they do not define actions. Never say never, or always, and that's what labels do.

[LaydeeBug]

46. He just SURROUNDED himself with them.

I remember the primary season when Rahm Emmanuel and his DLC ilk were an albatross for Hillary Clinton. Those SAME people applauded his inclusion in such a crucial role in the Obama administration. And the appointment of the Clintonites CERTAINLY did not stop there.

This is not that I mind so much, but it does cause me to do this when they claim him to be a liberal. :rofl:

[cali]

48. uh, no he didn't. he surrounded himself

largely with centrists and a few liberals.

[Hippo_Tron]

47. By European standards he's center-right but not in this country

[leftofthedial]

50. "center," "left" and "right" are relative terms.

In America, as compared to the civilized world, the "center" is actually pretty far "right."

An unambiguous fealty to "free markets" and to corporations should disqualify one automatically from being characterized as "left" in any fashion, IMO.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

51. according to his own definition he is a centrist. focussing on what the left/right

can agree on.

i think he is slightly center left

[Hawkowl]

52. Easier to con the rethuglicans

I've come to believe that Obama is at least tacitly going along with the label of center right simply because it will allow him to peel off support from moderate rethuglicans. This is a page right out of Reagan's and indeed, Nixon's, playbook. Reagan pretended to be your moderate, average, middle class American with his folksy platitudes and feigned ignorance (later Alzheimer's). This is how he conned all those "Reagan democrats". And Nixon appealed to the "silent majority" of the American public who weren't in the streets demonstrating.

I think Obama is demonstrating at least as much political skill as both Nixon and Reagan by allowing a center right label, while moving the center solidly LEFT by his policies and actions.

What solidified this theory to me was his SUPPORT FOR THE WORKERS' SIT IN IN CHICAGO!!! Center right my ass! Ha! I love this guy. And I have to admit I was a late to the party supporter of Obama.

[Thrill]

56. This is Bullshit. You can't have Obama's record and agenda on Unions, Environment , Abortion,

taxes, Stem Cell Research, Education etc.. And be called Center Right. Thats just bullshit

[Romulox]

57. On UHC, War on Drugs, and the Economy, he's center/right.

One of the reasons the "Culture Wars" are so popular with the ruling class is that they distract us from the basics, and primarily economics.

[Autonomy]

58. Obama is a Far Right-Wing Extremist

to an anarcho-syndicalist who does not believe in rule of law, any property rights, trusteeship, representative government, etc.

[mikelgb]

59. nobody has popped any yet?

:popcorn:

[rhett o rick]

60. To even discuss center right verses center one must understand the definition of center.

I don't believe Obama is center right, because the so called center has shifted waaaaay right. Today, if you believe in the Constitution and fairness for starving people you are branded "Far Left". What? The right has effectively redefined the center to be closer to what they want. Besides it doesn't matter how you describe Obama, he has to fight the corporate right which has all the money at their disposal.

[NorthCarolina]

61. The GOP is Desperate to convince America that they are center-RIGHT to the point

of claiming Obama is "Center-Right". Contrary to what the media would like to lead you to believe, America is not center-right, but rather center-left.

[Laelth]

65. Agreed.

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth

[bvar22]

63. Where is "The Center"?

Here is what the MAJORITY of Americans (Democrats AND Republicans) want from OUR government!

In recent polls by the Pew Research Group, the Opinion Research Corporation, the Wall Street Journal, and CBS News, the American majority has made clear how it feels. Look at how the majority feels about some of the issues that you'd think would be gospel to a real Democratic Party:

1. 65 percent (of ALL Americans, Democrats AND Republicans) say the government should guarantee health insurance for everyone -- even if it means raising taxes.

2. 86 percent favor raising the minimum wage (including 79 percent of selfdescribed "social conservatives").

3. 60 percent favor repealing either all of Bush's tax cuts or at least those cuts that went to the rich.

4. 66 percent would reduce the deficit not by cutting domestic spending but by reducing Pentagon spending or raising taxes.

5. 77 percent believe the country should do "whatever it takes" to protect the environment.

6. 87 percent think big oil corporations are gouging consumers, and 80 percent (including 76 percent of Republicans) would support a windfall profits tax on the oil giants if the revenues went for more research on alternative fuels.

7. 69 percent agree that corporate offshoring of jobs is bad for the U.S. economy (78 percent of "disaffected" voters think this), and only 22% believe offshoring is good because "it keeps costs down."

http://alternet.org/story/29788/

8. Over 63% oppose the War on the Iraqi People.

9. 92% of ALL Americans support TRANSPARENT, VERIFIABLE elections!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x446445

On the above issues, Obama agrees with The Center on 2/3.
On the other 1/3, Obama is to the Right of Center.

The average places Obama as Center/Right on Economic Issues.

[leftstreet]

67. Thank you!

(I've missed seeing you regularly post those stats)

:applause:

[bvar22]

70. The "Pragmatic Centrists" are obsessed with Labels.

The discussion of "Labels" is a complete waste of time at DU since we have been swarmed with a loud herd of "Pragmatic Centrists".
Since "Centrism" is NOT based on Issues, it will vary for each individual and in each election as "The Center" moves, but still lends the comfort of The Middle of the Herd for anyone who is not well informed or lacks the courage to actually Take a Stand on The Issues. The really dangerous thing about the Dogma of Centrism is that it is so easy to dictate from an authoritarian source. It can be completely controled by the handful of people who own The Media. If the TV says that the country is "Center-Right", then the "Centrists" all line up and say "Thats good enough for me!".



Where Obama stands on "The Issues" is the only criteria that matters.
His campaign was filled with vague Progressive rhetoric and Progressive imagery, but when examined for specific STANDS on Issues was surprisingly Conservative or non-committal.

His voting record in the Senate combined with his cabinet and administration appointments are not good news for the Democratic wing of the Party.
It is frightening when even hard Core Republicans rejoice in his appointments.

Clinton and Steinberg at State should be powerful voices for 'neo-liberalism' which is not so different in many respects from 'neo-conservativism.'"
-- Max Boot, neoconservative activist, former McCain staffer.


"I see them as being sort of center-right of the Democratic party."
-- James Baker, former Secretary of State and the man who led the theft of the 2000 election.


"... certainly nothing that represents a drastic change in how Washington does business."
-- Michael Goldfarb of the neoconservative Weekly Standard.