Rick Warren Says I'm Going To Burn In Hell Because I'm Jewish

[MannyGoldstein]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/15/opinion/main4353149.shtml

How does his presence at the inaugural do anything but reward hatred?

This is very, very disappointing. I've supported Obama since he first announced, but I find the support of this hate-monger to be extremely troubling. Anyone who preaches that people will burn in hell because they don't believe in some doctrine is not representative of the America that I want to live in.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

1. Yep, he's an equal opportunity hater

[TK421]

6. How DARE you call anyone Obama asks to pray at his inauguration an equal opportunity hater!!!@!#

YOU ARE A DARKSIDED GARGOYLE@@@#@$$!!!!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

8. Hehehe

[TK421]

10. Sorry, but this fucking bullshit has gone beyond ridiculous

and anyone who defends it? they can go fuck themselves with a rusty flagpole

[Maven]

2. Don't be so sensitive! He's just speaking in front of millions to ring in the future of America!

Lighten up!

[QC]

3. Sorry, but you are not being pragmatic, post-partisan, or post-ideological with that attitude.

C'mon! Reach out to the man who believes that you are so vile you must burn for all eternity! Embrace him! Be hopeful and changealicious!

[WCGreen]

39. But I thought the Jews didn't believe in Hell...

Isn't it just a Christian thing...

So maybe all of us who are living in the 21st Century and don't buy into Warren's fairy tails are exempt from Hell.

I mean really, if it's just for wayward Christains then I'm covered.

Beside, I'd rather go to Valhalla and hang out with Thor et al...

[hulklogan]

4. Who is going to be the first to say, "Get over yourself you silly jew!"?

:sarcasm:

[saltpoint]

5. Manny, in that case I want to sit next to you. Save me a seat because

you'll be excellent company.

Warren is monstrous. I wish Obama had chosen someone else.

[MannyGoldstein]

11. It'll Be My Pleasure

If Warren's correct about who's Hell-bound, it'll be an OK place during coffee breaks.

[saltpoint]

12. : )

[rockymountaindem]

7. I don't get why people are defending this

"He's reaching out"
-Oh, I didn't realize we were supposed to reach out to people who have fundamentally no respect for our religion or history (to wit: his comments about abortion being tantamount to the Holocaust)

"He's only one speaker out of many!"
-So everybody should get five minutes? Well then, let's find a representative from among the anarchists and Luddites. After all, if there's only one of them, how bad could they be?

[IndianaGreen]

9. So in addition to homophobia and misogyny, we can add anti-Semitism to Warren's flaws

Here is a goodbye kiss, you dog! (throwing shoes at Warren)

[QC]

13. You Jews need to stop obsessing over your narrow agenda and pet issues

and get over it!

:sarcasm:

[yardwork]

31. Check out post #27

[QC]

34. Shit, it's gotten very hard to do irony here anymore.

[yardwork]

37. I know. Just when I think I've pushed it too far, somebody says it for real.

[QC]

44. I know! I felt a little edgy even posting that in obvious jest.

I needn't have worried!

[Renegade08]

14. You're reading into the quote more than there actually is.

This is the passage from that op-ed piece by a liberal using the Jews go to hell quote to show why he admires Warren!

For those who believe that Sinclair Lewis' Elmer Gantry -- and its portrayal of evangelical preachers as hypocritical frauds -- offers the last word on conservative Christianity, Rick Warren cannot possibly be a force for good. I have yet to let Jesus enter my life, but I admire Warren. We once appeared on a panel together along with Harvard's Peter Gomes at the Aspen Ideas Festival. When it came time for questions, a woman stood up, proclaimed her Judaism, and asked Warren if she was going to burn in hell. He paused before responding -- and then answered her question the only way it could be answered. Yes, he said to audible gasps. My reaction was that either you believe that Jesus is the savior or you do not, and I found myself impressed that Warren remained true to his convictions, knowing full well that the audience would not like what he said.

The important question is not what Warren believes, but what he does. Of all the things he does, the most important is severing a link between conservative religion and conservative politics

Does Warren hate Jews? I wouldn't assume that from that quote. You are mixing up a factual statement for a normative statement. Warren is saying he believes, as a matter "fact," that non-Christians will go to hell. He is NOT saying that Jews SHOULD go to hell because they are an evil bunch of people.

There's a huge difference between an "is" and an "ought" statement.

Of course, I think it's silly to say that Jews will go to hell, or other non-Christians. But, it's clear to me that he doesn't express that belief out of hate or bigotry, but out of misguided belief, especially when you look at, as the author of the article suggests, what Warren DOES instead of what he SAYS.

[yardwork]

24. Are you aware of what Warren has DONE?

[Renegade08]

25. Tell me, what has he done?

Other than support Prop 8? And don't refer to what he has said, refer to what he has done that is so vile and evil.

[yardwork]

29. Supporting Proposition 8 is vile and evil. If you don't see that, you don't belong here.

[Renegade08]

36. Right, and the many black democrats who voted for it don't belong here, either.

They all need to be excommunicated from the democratic party, right?

We should also get rid of all the sexist democrats from the party, the ones who harassed Hillary fans all during the primaries. They're evil, too, especially since they support evil sexists like Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews. Of course, those guys need to go, too.

Who else?

[yardwork]

38. Are you saying that "many black democrats" voted for Proposition 8?

Why would you think that?

[Solon]

42. Its against DU's rules to be against Same-Sex Marriage, so yes, they don't belong here either. n/t

[Maven]

68. People who supported Prop 8 would not be welcome here if they chose to express that view.

That's correct. Any other questions?

[Quantess]

84. Looks like Renegade 08 got tombstoned.

I wonder what finally did it. Too much flames and divisiveness, maybe.

[Clio the Leo]

15. That does it, i'm just gonna start replying with this to every similar thread....

Because I dont think everyone's quite got it....

"What's troubling is the gap between the magnitude of our challenges and the smallness of our politics - the ease with which we are distracted by the petty and trivial, our chronic avoidance of tough decisions, our seeming inability to build a working consensus to tackle any big problem." - Barack Obama"

[MannyGoldstein]

20. Jews Going To Hell Is Petty And Trivial?

Really?

[yardwork]

22. It's incredible, isn't it? All over this board tonight.

Human rights, gay rights, religious rights, women's rights, scientific inquiry - all totally out the window and anybody complaining is insulted.

[Muttocracy]

67. is there a maximum on ignore lists?

'cause mine's growing to absurd proportions seeing all the things you mentioned...

[QC]

79. Anything that prevents us from worshipping and adoring The Anointed One

is petty and trivial, it seems.

[jberryhill]

66. Christians tend to believe that non-Christians are going to Hell

Jews believe that non-Jews are not "God's chosen people".

So, who's leaving who out?

Isn't that the point of all religions - "We got it right, and you got it wrong?"

I believe I'll have another drink, and toast to your good health and a happy new year.

[yardwork]

71. Actually, most Christians don't believe that non-Christians are going to hell.

Only extremist right-wing fundamentalist Christians believe that.

[jberryhill]

74. Have you taken a poll?

The largest group of Christians - Catholics - are pretty clear about belief in Christ being a pre-requisite to going to heaven.

Otherwise, a lot of them seem to be wasting a lot of time obsessing over not going there.

The only reason we have protestants and Catholics was that the protestants decided all you had to do is believe in order to be saved, and you didn't even have to be a nice person to anybody.

That was an "improvement".

[yardwork]

21. If you think that human rights are trivial, you are pathetic.

[bullwinkle428]

26. I'm guessing you're not Jewish.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rockymountaindem]

28. I think thousands of years of persecution on the basis that Judaism is theologically wrong

would give us enough reason to be less than thrilled with people like Warren going around telling us that we're not worthy of spending the afterlife with the likes of him. If you fall into any of those other groups you mentioned, I encourage you to stand up for yourself and express some displeasure at this pick.

Of course, I'd wager from the posts I've seen you make here that you're just an instigator.

[Renegade08]

32. Yes, I do fall in "going to hell" camp, but, sorry, I just can't find myself

working myself into a foaming lather about this.

As for being an instigator, I do instigate, whenever I see people making irrational statements based on distortions, lies, and half-truths.

[yardwork]

30. "Liberals are just as bad as freepers."

Why don't you go find a board where you are more at home?

[Renegade08]

33. Classic whiny retort when you can't handle legitimate criticism.

Go away! So I don't have to deal with DISSENTING OPINIONS that challenge one's assumptions and world views!!

[yardwork]

41. Your statement that "liberals are just as bad as freepers" was meant to be a dissenting opinion?

[QC]

35. I'm sure he's already got an account there. n/t

[Renegade08]

46. Lol, you know you're winning an argument when the

the best the other side can do in response is make lame ad hominem attacks that fail to address the merits of the point.

You wish I was a freeper, so you can just dismiss what I'm saying without having to, oh, THINK about what I'm saying, or to actually read Warren's statements without your bigoted goggles on.

So, how about knocking off the juvenile crap, and show me how my interpretation and understanding of Warren's various statements are wrong.

[yardwork]

48. It's clear that you are an admirer of Rick Warren. You agree with his views on gay people.

You probably agree with his views on women, as well. You certainly agree with Warren's views on Jewish people and all non-Christians.

You and Rick Warren probably agree on most things, except that you might be surprised to learn that he's also a racist.

[Renegade08]

54. Whoa, stereotyping me much, buddy?

More lame-ass arguments from you. You're basically making a "Guilt by failure to demonize Warren along with rest of the mob" argument in concluding, with such certainty, that I must believe all the things that Warren supposedly stands for because I refuse to join in on the demonization orgy.

And a bunch of racist assumptions in your post, too.

Here's a tip - one can actually defend a person against unfair attacks even if I don't actually agree with the person on issues.

Yes, I don't believe in "hell" let alone believe that Jews and other non-Christians are destined for hell, but, I'm not so simple-minded that I am able to defend someone from unfair attacks only if I agree with that person's religious beliefs.

[yardwork]

60. No, I'm not stereotyping you. How could I? I'm responding to your posts.

In your posts, you make it clear that you agree with Rick Warren's views on gay people, Jewish people, and women. You haven't specifically said that you agree with Warren's many racist statements, so I'm guessing that you might be surprised by them.

[Renegade08]

63. Oh, really? That's news to me!

I guess you know me better than I know myself! Shit, what I AM I doing here? I need to go become a Mormon, find me a submissive wife (or two; or three; or four), and join the local neo-Nazi group. Maybe I can find some of my fellow neo-Nazi NAACP members to become Mormon with me.

Let me say this one more time, because clearly you're having a problem understanding the following concept - one need not have to agree with a person's position to contend that that person's positions are being distorted and that that person is being demonized. You know, that whole Voltaire notion and stuff.

[yardwork]

65. Have you read your posts? Sometimes people don't really know themselves.

Your posts reveal a lot about you.

[Renegade08]

73. Tell me what I've written where I write about my hatred towards women, gays, non-Christians.

[Starry Messenger]

49. This is going nowhere. n/t

[LostinVA]

77. I don't know how this one has dodged a bullet so far

95% of its posts are like this.

[mondo joe]

86. Civil rights, anti semitism, abortion rights = petty? What ARE the important issues?

[Clio the Leo]

16. *

[Sebastian Doyle]

17. No stop signs, speed limits. Nobody's gonna slow me down.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PovZjGlsO0

[SwampG8r]

18. do jews even HAVE hell?

pretty presumptuous to send people to an afterlife that doesnt exist to them
does this mean that a hindu can order me around post mortem?

[Barack_America]

23. The fundies have enough hatred to create a hell large enough for all of us.

As evidence, I give you the Bush administration.

[jberryhill]

69. The ancient Greeks are insisting on sending me to Hades

Screw 'em. I'm going to Valhalla.

[SwampG8r]

72. valhalla is nice

and the area is being gentrified buy now while you still can

im looking into a little known pacific island afterlife where a whole lot of nasty goes on starring your truly
just cause im dead doesnt mean i have to be dead you know?
bonk chonk a wowow

[Barack_America]

19. When you get to Hell, come sit by me.

I've never been baptized, so I'm headed there too.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

40. Rick Warren is going to burn in hell because he is full of hate and is casting judgment

against his brothers and sisters. Those are sins as well that the Bible says are an abomination!

[elshiva]

43. Bigotry is bullshit.

My dad and his side of the family are all Jews. This is just hatred. :mad:

[girl_interrupted]

45. Rick Warren is not too fond of Women either

what a turd he is.

[northofdenali]

47. Barack should have asked Sarah to speak,

She and Warren are pretty tight, view and religion-wise, you betcha. wink. wink.

[TK421]

50. Why do you people even bother getting circumcised? Really...give me a break!

:eyes:

[QC]

51. I heard they get circumcised at WalMart and then go out to Olive Garden to celebrate!

Three top DU obsessions in one post! Top that!

[TK421]

53. While they breastfeed and let their other little bastards run amok

without proper supervision and ruin our dinner?

[QC]

57. Yes, but why are you having dinner at Olive Garden? If you can call such a thing "dinner."

What could possibly ruin an evening at Olive Garden?

[TK421]

59. TEH JEWZ!!!!@!!!!!!#

Seriously, I think I'm getting a new avatar! :D this lady is getting old

[Behind the Aegis]

89. Here ya go.

[jberryhill]

75. Do they show a receipt to the clerk on the way out? /nt

[elshiva]

55. "Jews are dark-sided."

:sarcasm:

[TK421]

58. they are circumcised GARGOYLES!!@!@# SLYKANEcKS!!!

[Ioo]

52. HATE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN!

[TK421]

56. .....

:rofl:

[IndianaGreen]

62. BREAKING: El Coyote's Margie Christoffersen to speak at Inaugural

Why not add another Prop 8 supporter? :grr:

[QC]

64. Yes, we must reach out to her! n/t

[jberryhill]

70. LOL - Actually, Obama has decided to have McCain take the oath of office

Now that's what I call "reaching out". LOL.

[jberryhill]

61. Ummm... that's pretty much the basic consensus of most Christian groups

Christianity is based on the notion that Jews don't understand their own faith.

The nut of it is that everyone is going to Hell, but they don't have to because Christ took that punishment for all who accept it.

Now, there are views under which redemption is automatic, or groups which pretty much boil everything down to Christ saying "play nice with each other", but the bulk of groups which identify as "Christian" pretty much include the notion of Christ's alleged resurrection as being done on behalf of believers in him.

The "everyone else is going to Hell" part is rationalized as "it's their choice whether to believe in Jesus". That's somewhat idiotic because you can't choose what you believe (really, you can't). Calvinists are at least clear on that basic observation about people.

Every major religion is premised on "I'm right an you're wrong."

If we want to play "let's simplify things", Judaism is based on the notion that Isaac's children are God's chosen people. Well, I can't decide to be "chosen", so I guess I'm pretty much left out of that deal.

This is why we have separation of church and state. Hardcore believers in anything aren't going to get along with anyone else.

[rockymountaindem]

76. Judaism is not based on "I'm right, you're wrong"

Judaism is based on the ideas of one God, earthly reward and punishment, and the idea of "chosenness" which says that Jews have a special responsibility to make the world better and obey God's laws. Others are welcome do to so, but we don't view it as a requirement. Being "the chosen people" is an extremely misunderstood concept. It doesn't mean Jews think we are better than non-Jews. In fact, Judaism is quite clear on the point that non-Jews have the same requirements for getting into heaven as Jews. See this link:

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

[jberryhill]

78. Really? I'll bet this is GREAT news to the former inhabitants of Jericho!

I guess wiping the Amalekites off of the face of the earth was just a big misunderstanding.

Modern interpretations of most religions converge on the same stuff, and that's fine. Otherwise we'd have long blown one another to smithereens.

But let's get real here, okay?

This is a bronze age tribe that slaughtered everything in its path because G-d "gave" them land that other people were already living in.

Or are you going to tell me that Joshua led the "Chosen" into Canaan and made nicey-nice with everybody? C'mon.

Humans - ALL HUMANS - are descended from brutal clans of people bashing each other around. The Hebrews were particularly successful in their area. Vikings were successful in theirs, and so on.

Samson used the jawbone of a donkey to, uh, spread a little love.

It's a lot like the emerging re-definition of "jihad" from actual warfare to an inner spiritual battle. But let's not kid ourselves about the fact that evolving modern understandings are attempts to sand down some of the nastier bits of all three of the Abrahamic faiths.

Abraham was "chosen" because he was willing to kill his own child at the command of voices he heard.

[rockymountaindem]

80. Okay....

So I guess it's not like anybody's religion has, you know, evolved over the past few centuries. I notice the witch hunts are over, for starters.

[jberryhill]

81. You responded while I was editing

Precisely. And they evolve by having to participate in a larger cultural context in which they find that the nastiness isn't going to fly.

It's not just Judaism, and I don't want you to think I was singling out.

All three Abrahamic faiths are pretty rotten in certain historical aspects. At this point, a good chunk of Islam and Christianity have some "catching up" to do, but there are adherents of all three who are not letting go of some excess baggage that needs to stop.

[eridani]

83. Mike Royko always said that the "chosen people" thing was pretty scary to him

"I mean, what does He do to people he DOESN'T like?"

[bridgit]

82. How did Billy Graham's? Does anyone know Farrakhan's stance? Wright's?

I think Warren is a usury duuph of colossal proportions...but why just Warren? Aren't *they* all that way? Aren't, according to them, we all going to hell? Manny, I understand and feel what you're saying...but this Warren thing is so typically, myopically DU its not merely apples and oranges its darts and shuffleboard. I'm starting to feel profoundly empathetic toward so many people not having seen any of this coming, not a single shred...its sad, to see so many having bought into the cool guy Ray-bans, the 3Pt shots, the pom-poms, the poetries, the 'hope & change' being let down so hard

[Uzybone]

85. Surprise, but thats the unspoken fact of most mainstream Christians

lets not just single out Warren.

[On the Road]

87. If You Believe the Bible,

you're pretty much compelled to believe that. Jews, of course, are in the same boat as most of us.

[Honeycombe8]

88. Come on. That's just an argument against MOST Christian leaders.

Just stating what most Christian religious leaders believe isn't, in and of itself, a disqualifying reason for him/her not to given the invocation.

It's what most Christian religious leaders believe. Haven't we learned to accept their silly beliefs by now? Anyone who hasn't accepted Jesus as his/her savior will be going to hell one day, is what they believe, because the Bible supposedly says so. There are exceptions, per Billy Graham (like small children or those who were never exposed to Christianity). At least, that's what he believed, he said on Larry King (if I got it right).

So what? Big deal. What you're stating is that because Christians believe this stuff, you don't think any Christian leader should give the invocation.

Obama is a Christian. He would, of course, choose a Christian leader to give the invocation. No matter who he would've chosen, they most likely would believe pretty much the same way about different matters. All that stuff is in the Bible, and they HAVE to believe in the Bible. That's what they do. That's what they are. Big deal.