Saying that all bigotry is wrong isn't equating the struggles of one group with another

[dsc]

A very disturbing theme in many of the recent posts about Rev. Warren has been the notion that if a gay person says that Rev. Warren is as bigotted as a racist is, he or she is equating the struggles of gays and blacks. That isn't what most gays mean when we say they are both equally bigotted. Instead we are saying that people shouldn't be judged by immutable characteristics and that breaking that rule, not matter how, is wrong. Warren is a bigot just like people who voted to ban interracial marriage in Alabama were bigots. The sole difference is that at this point in time, Warren's bigotry is popular and thankfully the bigotry of those Alabamians isn't (the prop there went down 2 to 1). A joke to illustrate. A good looking man is approached by an older, wealthy man and asked "would you sleep with me for a million dollars" He thinks for a minute and says "yes". The older man smiles and says "good here is a hundred lets get it on". The younger man says "Hell no, what do you think I am a prostitute?" The older man says "I thought we established that with the first offer, now we are haggling over price". Similarly, Warren is a bigot. What we are haggling over is if we think bigotry is ever OK. Not who suffered more.

[JeffR]

1. Wish this had been posted a week ago

It could have circumvented a lot of the thoroughly pointless bickering here.

Well, maybe.

[Shiver]

2. Probably not

But it would have been a good reference to post in any number of those threads...

Kicking and recommending.

[dsc]

3. thanks

been on vacation family and all.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. I agree. Bigotry is not okay. The KKK is not okay, so why should Rick Warren be okay? nt

[HamdenRice]

5. You've got it exactly backward

I don't think anyone would disagree with the idea that there is bigotry against gays and lesbians.

It's that certain provocateurs are saying the struggles are EXACTLY the same, and that if you disagree with the idea that they are EXACTLY the same, then you are a bigoted homophobe.

If you don't believe me just scroll through the history of the debate.

That idea seems crazy to me. You could name any number of trivial facts (like: it's not 1954; Martin Luther King is dead; lynching was perpetrated by or with the collusion of law enforcement; etc.; etc.) to show that they are not EXACTLY the same, but if you do, the swarm will come after you.

That said, I agree with what you are saying.

Btw, the joke you made at the end is allegedly a true story, a witticism by the great writer, George Bernard Shaw, that has been retold and altered countless times:

"... He was at a party once and he told this woman that everyone would agree to do anything for money, if the price was high enough. `Surely not, she said.' `Oh yes,' he said. `Well, I wouldn't,' she said. `Oh yes you would,' he said. `For instance,' he said, `would you sleep with me for... for a million pounds?' `Well,' she said, `maybe for a million I would, yes.' `Would you do it for ten shillings?' said Bernard Shaw. `Certainly not!' said the woman `What do you take me for? A prostitute?' `We've established that already,' said Bernard Shaw. `We're just trying to fix your price now!'"

[alwysdrunk]

6. But equating Warren with a KKK leader IS equating the struggles

Or at least attempting to. "Why didn't they invite a Klansman to speak" - Don't tell me you haven't seen that here dozens of times.

The "bigots" in the KKK (they were a hell of a lot more than that), were opposed to a hell of a lot more than interracial marriage. Warren and the Christian Right, and the KKK are not equally bigoted.

[dsc]

7. So is Warren

He opposes ENDA, the equivalent of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. He opposed the elimination of sodomy laws. He opposes hate crimes legislation. In Rev. Warren's America, I would be unemployed, in jail, and subject to being killed with no punishment to the perpretrators of the crime.

[alwysdrunk]

8. The KKK was terrorist organization, not a religious or a political one

They supported (committed) serial murder of black men, women and children. When they weren't outright murdering people they were using violence and the threat of violence to intimidate any blacks actively or passively seeking progress. Their only real political goals were a return to slavery and\or the expatriation of all black Americans to Africa.

Warren may be a hateful bastard but he's not a murderer or a terrorist. I guess I really agree with you about the bigotry, Maybe it's just that bigotry is to tame of a term to describe the situation of black Americans for most of this country's history. There are many in the gay activist community who do directly equate the two parallel struggles for civil rights in this country. They should really read up on their history and think on that point again.

[LostinVA]

9. The Klan most certainly was and still is a political organization

The Klan literally controlled some states for decades, and they still do control some areas, just now in a slicker guise -- like like Warren's slicker guise.

That's what did and still does make white supremacist so dangerous: the leverage they have had and still do as a political force.

And, it is also a religious organization -- read up on the teachings and oaths. It is by definition a religious and political force.

And, if you think Warren etal aren't a bunch of terrorist, the also read up on the Dominionist movement. I didn't realize he was one until Polichick's thread last week.

[alwysdrunk]

11. Did you miss the part about the murders?

Do I need to post you a link? The Saddleback Church doesn't do that. They are not a TERRORIST organization. Do you really not understand this?

[dsc]

10. So if we used the CCC instead of KKK then it would be OK

Warren isn't violent but many of his followers are. Hate crimes are down for every major group except two, Muslims and gays. In Arkansas every non married person was banned from adopting or even fostering children in order to prevent gays from doing either. This isn't just about prop 8. Some gays have gone too far but you go way to far to ignore the lynchings of gays that are going on every single day.

[alwysdrunk]

12. Lynchings of gays going on every single day. I'm going to need links here.

I know hate crimes occur in this country, but as far as I know they aren't perpetrated by conservative preachers, probably not even practicing conservative Christians . If I'm wrong and I somehow missed these please educate me. I really have not gone out of my way to ignore anything. I lurk the GLBT forum and other sites to become more educated on gay right issues before I go talking out of my ass on GD:P.

[dsc]

13. Here is a good thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=106997&mesg_id=106997

Everyone of those people were murdered by people taught that gays are evil by the likes of Warren. Every damn one.

[alwysdrunk]

14. The likes of Warren? They are MURDERERS, they are not right wing preachers

It isn't diminishing those horrible crimes to say that Christian Right conservatives are not murderers and terrorists. I understand that anger and emotion can color one's opinion, but eventually logic has to creep back in to the discussion here. Equating Rick Warren to a Klan leader is demonstrably false and counter-productive for everyone.

[dsc]

15. I am not doing so

I am saying he is the eqivalent of the CCC. The simple fact is that those people who murdered were taught to hate, and the people who taught them to hate were people just like Warren.

[HamdenRice]

16. This is where you lose all credibility

First of all, we are talking about the United States. If we were talking about oppression all over the world, we could add that Bantu speakers get lynched by Muslims in Sudan, or that Hutus get lynched by Tutsis in Burundi.

So within the US to compare hate crimes that occur today against gays and lesbians (as well as against African Americans, Hispanics, Asians, Native Americans and all kinds of other groups) with lynching that occurred before the civil rights movement, is simply historically wrong and hyperbole. It undercuts your credibility.

Lynching was systemic violence perpetrated by or with the collusion of local law enforcement, witnessed and proudly carried out by large crowds of the local community, and that was then excused by the local judiciary which would never convict despite complete documentary evidence. That's why the main goal of "anti-lynching legislation" was simply to get the jurisdiction of federal courts to apply.

Comparing modern hate crimes with lynching not only destroys your credibility, but insults the historical memory of those times.

[wndycty]

17. Oh I have comments but. . .

. . .despite my support of civil rights for the LGBT community, support for gay marriage and opposition to Warren's inclusion in the inaugural I'm afraid if I make those comments I would be branded an insensitive homophobe, after all this is DU where rational, frank discussions go to die.

[dsc]

18. Gay panic, twinkie defense, and I could go on

The people are just as dead, the perps often go lightly or unpunished, and with the exception of Muslims, gays are the only group for which hate crimes are up.

[HamdenRice]

19. I was friends with a transgendered woman whose sister's killer used the gay panic defense

so I'm well aware of it and still, there is no comparison.



You are referring to Chanelle Pickett (right), a transsexual woman who was murdered in Boston in 1997, and whose killer was partly acquitted because the jury bought the defense lawyer's bogus story that the killer thought she was a genetic woman and panicked when he found out she was born a man. The judge gave the killer the harshest sentence possible given the jury verdict.

I knew Gabrielle (left), her twin sister, also transgendered, when she was an activist in NYC in the late 90s. Gabrielle was, however, a very depressed person and eventually succumbed to drug use. I know she died in 2003, but I've heard conflicting accounts about whether she was murdered or died of an overdose.

Chanelle was not killed by a mob; law enforcement did not help a mob kill Chanelle; and the judge did not collude to get the perpetrator off; and purpose of the murder was not to intimidate an entire community from voting or otherwise insisting on their legal rights.

As horrible as modern hate crimes are, there is no comparison between lynching and modern hate crimes. Calling different things the same simply makes it impossible to analyze either of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFapuM7aM1Q

[dsc]

20. It wasn't used only one time

there is a reason people repeatedly try gay panic. Because it has repeatedly worked. Yes, finally judges are shutting it down. But I am old enough to remember killers getting off on this defense over and over and over again. I am old enough to remember the term homo cide (ie only a faggot was killed lets just sweep it under the rug).

[HamdenRice]

22. You're still missing the point. The town did not turn out to kill these people

There are no photographs of an entire town having a celebration that these people were killed.

To equate modern hate crimes and lynching is to disparage what lynching was -- an entire system of violent oppression intertwined with the law enforcement, political and judicial systems.

[dsc]

24. No they just sent twelve of their citizens to do the dirty work for them

and they are just as dead. Cemetaries are full of gay men and lesbian women who needed killing for one or more reasons.

[JohnnieGordon]

25. I remember the case of a judge who said if it'd been a housewife who got murdered..

in a park, instead of a gay man cruising, his sentence would've been much harsher. And after admitting he gives lighter sentences if the victim is gay, the judge still got reelected. And this was no longer ago than the early 90s maybe.

[dsc]

26. yep and he got reelected repeatedly

in fairness to him the sentence was still pretty stiff but this is all too common.

[gollygee]

21. It's drawing parallels, but not equating

They're different struggles but there are some parallels, and some things that are very different.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Warren and the Christian Right are as bigoted as the Klan

They may not burn crosses, that we know of, but their views on Jews, Catholics, women, and LGBTs, are exactly as those of the Klan. They only difference is in the packaging of their views.

[DailyGrind51]

27. I couldn't agree more,

which is why I can't understand painting all Christians or "people of faith" with the Warren brush?