You used to be able to come here to DU

[27inCali]

and gets all kind of weird, random information nuggets about politics and world news, lots of cool little facts and opinions that gave you an expanded perspective on just about anything and everything that mattered. If any interesting articles had been published lately, you get to read a preview, get a link to the whole thing with a fun list of commentaries from like minded people.

it practically made watching the news redundant. Being a member made you feel like a well-informed, plugged-in human being.

But a lot these cool things are missing right now, being drowned out by a din of repetitious noise that has very little to do with anything other than sheer negativity, ugliness and reproach. It's useless to me. I mean, you can only hit the outrage button so many times until you wear people down and start sounding like a robot, not to mention turning them off from your cause . I've had enough of listening to people trying to attract bees with vinegar, let's try some honey for once and see how that works.

This country has a whole laundry list of fucked up things going on that need to be changed. I'm not ready to jump down someone's throat because their list of priorities is ordered a little different from mine, but right now it seems like the only thing that a lot of people want to do right now - shred each other apart arguing semantics, labeling and dehumanizing those who don't share in their hyperbole.

Right now, I -and I'm sure a few others- want to talk about the economic stimulus package Obama's working on, I want to talk about how much of that stimulus will be used to create American-made cars that out-pace the Prius for MPG. I want to talk about what kind of investments will be made in wind and solar, what kind of tax breaks will people get for buying green products or using green sources of energy and whether CA will get Federal funding for a high speed electric train between Sacramento and LA. How are we going to reform immigration? What are we going to do about these Mormon offshoot cults that are setting up child molestation factories in the rocky mt. states? What are we going to do about the millions of people being kicked out of their home? When are we going to rebuild New Orleans? What are we going to do to combat urban sprawl which causes wasteful use of gasoline and destroys valuable farmland? Can we start talking about scrapping the Federal Reserve and having the Government print money directly as opposed through a private entity that charges interest and inflates the national debt? Constitution amendments to limit the rights of Corporations when their actions negatively effect their communities. What about health care? Getting the cost of prescription drugs down for seniors, funding the VA, what are the details so far for the withdrawal from Iraq? What are we doing to calm down tensions between India and Pakistan? Should we back off of our current alliance with Pakistan? What are we doing in Afghanistan? are we just going to fight? -or modernize their mining industry to undercut the poppy trade? convincing the AG to investigate war crimes anyone? The Republican's just got caught red handed murdering a whistle-blower with a plane crash -and none of us are talking about it. WTF?

So please do PM all your friends to flame my post within 30 seconds of it being posted, I would be a little bit let down if you didn't. I look forward to wearing your reproach as a mantle of honor.

[TheWraith]

1. Kicked and recommended. nt

[onefreespiritedchick]

98. I second this. K & R!

Excellent post!

[bridgit]

2. Hey! Stockton!!

k&r'd :kick:

[NYC_SKP]

109. Or "Stocktone" as some residents say...

Though not me...
Always delighted to see or hear from a fellow Stocktonian.

:toast:

[bridgit]

133. LOL! Good one!!

Stockton is just down the road a piece from here in SacTown where itinerant Massholes call it SuckaTomato awwww, the delta, home sweet home :toast:

[NYC_SKP]

137. That picture...

Did you take it?

Looks a lot like Smith Canal, I live on Smith Canal, (cue twilight zone music).

[bridgit]

146. Nope, just in my cache somewhere under 'sacramento delta', had a back & forth...

with a DUer couple years ago it seems now, after I posted that I was just a Sacramento Delta girl...they said there was only one delta in America and that was the Mississip Delta cause I suppose its uber-cool to think you know all about blues music er'whatever, it made me smile at way some people are http://www.deltaking.com

[NYC_SKP]

155. The Delta King used to be in Stockton,

In what's called the turning basin at the port, a few blocks from my parents home.
It was abandoned, I used to explore it from top to bottom.
It and it's sister ship, the Delta Queen, have a fascinating history beginning with their being build in Scotland, as you probably know.

I did the mystery dinner thing on the King last year, very fun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Queen

Also, I'm pretty sure the picture is Smith Canal, taken from a boat facing West not far from the I-5 overpass, with Pixie Woods ahead on the left and Atherton Island at the end.

Which makes no sense to most people, unless they live in Mayberry, I mean Stockton.

:donut:

[bridgit]

158. hahaha, Pixie Wood, that's my *dancer name*, hear you on the Mayberry too...

;) I'd done some traveling after college; hitchhiked to the tip of Mexico, round Belize the Yucatan, cloistered in French nunneries outside Paris ('spose that's not really traveling cause you're just kinda sitting there :)), round this country and there's places I'd live in a heartbeat but *this* area still seems like home to me

I guess the Delta King used to go all the way to SF too. From here I can see the rice silos in W. Sac, Stockton's even bigger & getting bigger (friend of ours is to be oboe'ing soon in you guy's new symph :thumbsup:), and people in the Cent Valley pretty much live within a stones throw of a field full of cattle or produce. Overall point being that this remains an commercially active system. This is from out the window at the Ryde Hotel

[27inCali]

335. as much as I hate certain things about the Valley

like for one, it's not Liberal enough and so many people are just painfully unhip.

I still love the place in a weird way, especially the canals and the West Side Delta areas, driving down HWY 4 between Stockton and Antioch or taking HWY 12 to Rio Vista.

[PatSeg]

143. Same here!

South Sac!

[bridgit]

147. Good Moooorrnnning, SouthSac!!

:hi: :donut:

[PatSeg]

163. Good Morning!!!!

Well, just barely morning.

[Grinchie]

205. Isn't that Snug Harbor?

I visited that area a few times in the past.

[bridgit]

276. Love Snug Harbor...

[NBachers]

273. I'm an Erie Canal guy in San Francisco

The times I've been around the Delta waters like that brought me right back to my home town of Spencerport. All of us children of the Erie have a special place in our hearts for our dear old canal and our village lift bridge. Thanks for the reminder, bridgit.

[bridgit]

277. Not a problem, friend, love your avatar!!

:hi:

[firedupdem]

3. Recommended. Great Post! n/t

[snowbear]

4. Great post Cali ~~ We love you..

.
.

And more good news.. The Sharks are still in first place!



~~~~~~

[27inCali]

67. that's a pretty sweet shot of Nabakov

thanks for the love

[Cheap_Trick]

90. Oh, different Nabakov.....

NOT the author of "Lolita".

[Peggy Day]

93. Didn't the Columbus Blue Jackets beat them? nt

[Starry Messenger]

5. There are other forums than GDP.

This one is like Thunderdome crossed with the news of the day. I find that more sustained discussion goes on in the subforums.

[Balderdash]

6. Maybe if you didn't make post after post telling LGBT

people to shut up you wouldn't get flamed. We're not going
to shut up for your convenience. So start posts about the
economic situation, no one is stopping you from posting whatever
you want. Including this bullshit.

[27inCali]

20. I'm not telling people to shut up

I'm saying screaming at people who already agree with you is pointless, the energy is better spent somewhere else, and that pure emotional venting over the same thing for weeks on end is morbid and unhealthy for all of us and it's probably better to start talking about what we'll do in 2010 to close that 4% gap.
I believe in gay marriage.
I voted no on 8, I registered voters, I pressured my friends and family to do the same, what more do you want? I know most DUers, if they didn't do as much as me, at least share the same values. They don't need their heads bitten off- I wish you could see that..
you can't sum up what I'm saying in four letters, it's unitellectual and demeaning.
Too many people are running at the mouth and lumping people in groups and throwing around really ugly labels and it's way past the point that anything constructive can come from it now. I think we all feel that, so at what point does someone say, we see it differently on a tactical level, but ultimately in the big picture we're on the same side?
how long is it going to take to get to that point?

[Vanje]

21. "unintellectual and demeaning"

Heres something unintellectual and demeaning :

"So please do PM all your friends to flame my post within 30 seconds of it being posted, I would be a little bit let down if you didn't. I look forward to wearing your reproach as a mantle of honor."

[27inCali]

28. I'm quoting Blake

as in you are being fools for not actually listening to what I am saying.

that's why you keep saying I am telling you to shut up when I'm not.

you aren't listening, you are boxing me up in this neat little box so that you don't actually have to think about what I am saying and risk the possibility that it might convince you of something.

[Vanje]

31. Blake? Well then!

Then its not unintillectual and demeaning.
Its muy intellectual and demeaning.

[27inCali]

37. haha

I think if you express yourself thoughtfully and honestly to someone, and they pass total judgement on what you to say before hearing it, they are being foolish and you have a right to mock them for it.

I don't like rhetoric, I don't like strained arguments, if I sit down and write something out, it's what I really think, and it's what I think needs to be said at the moment whether it's what people want to hear or not. Many of the most important things you will ever hear will be things you didn't want to hear. I just don't think you are reading what I have to say but scanning for poorly worded phrases you can take out of context and attack me with.

We are often in our lives reduced to charicatures by the people we deal with, they take a glance, sum us up and never see more than that brutally simple summation no matter what we tell them or what we accomplish before their eyes. When this happens to me, I remind myself of that quote as I often remind myself of various random quotes and maxims I have discovered over the years,

That is what happened to me today, people commented on what I had to say before even reading it, they reminded me of the quote, so I added it, perhaps in an immature fashion, to call it demeaning is an exaggeration.

[Vanje]

41. I used the word "demeaning",originally because that is a word you had used

here:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8036794&mesg_id=8036863

The plain truth is, People dont want un-asked for advice. Even if its well meant.

I'm a battle-scarred old dyke, probably your granny's age. I live in rural mother-fucking Idaho , in the reddest county of the reddest state of this country.
I just dont need a stranger, even a well-meaning one, to tell me how to handle myself. If I wasnt already pretty good at it, I wouldnt be here typing now.

[27inCali]

57. I just want you to know

that I love you, for all the aweful fucked up things I know you've had to endure that it was not your fair lot to endure, I love you.

I'm an insolent little prick but I want this so bad for you and everyone like you.

I just think all the fighting now has gotten to a point where nothing good can come of it, only division, only weakening of the ranks when we need to be strong and ready for the moment.

I know it's coming and nothing can stop it, it's only a question of when, and I think we delay it by fighting among ourselves on and on over that fucking asshole Warren.

My profile says I live in Stockton, but I live in San Francisco now and have spent a lot of time there. A lot of the gay community out there for the most part I think failed to realize that they were fighting for you too and not just themselves. A lot of them partied and fucked off instead of going into the Central Valley and drumming up votes. The thought of the lost opportunity pisses me off to no end. There were no massive protests until after the vote. But even with that the margin was 4%. It's going to be overturned in the Supreme Court here and in 2010, the voters will confirm it, by a slim majority, but they will confirm it.

the day will come.

[bridgit]

190. Truer words have seldom been posted here @ DU, "A lot of the gay community out there for the most...

"...part I think failed to realize that they were fighting for you too and not just themselves. A lot of them partied and fucked off instead of going into the Central Valley and drumming up votes. The thought of the lost opportunity pisses me off to no end. There were no massive protests until after the vote. But even with that the margin was 4%. It's going to be overturned in the Supreme Court here and in 2010, the voters will confirm it, by a slim majority, but they will confirm it."

:kick:

[Vanje]

216. dupe

Sorry. Posting glitch

[Vanje]

217. Maybe they didnt "party and fuck off"

Maybe they just had to go to work.
You know. Like regular folks.

[bridgit]

220. Maybe your wrong...

[Vanje]

223. Got stereotypes?

huh?

[bridgit]

224. I'm convinced you don't care to know what you're talking about...

So long as you keep talking

[Vanje]

229. I'm talking to someone who makes stereotypes

I bet some of your best friends are gay.

[Name removed]

234. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vanje]

237. Its a mystery to me

what on earth you're talking about.

Did you just say you're gay?
Or did you say, I said, I am gay?

I gotta say, you lost me.

[bridgit]

281. Oh lord...I'm bi, my husband is a hedonist, you're the one that's gay criminy you're queer remember?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8034715&mesg_id=8034949 Pft, *I* didn't lose you, *you* lost yourself again kudos for blurring every line, it is not easy and you should start taking responsibility for it, others have to work much harder to accomplish what rolls off you like water off the back of a duck

[Vanje]

297. Attention to punctuation would help a great deal nt

[bridgit]

298. Yes Mommy...

[Vanje]

227. ....

you're = you are. your = possesive; belonging to you.
"maybe you're wrong"

Grammatical adjustment aside.

"The gayz lost prop 8 . They deserved to lose because they partied and fucked off. Every one of them . Right?
And we know this because......EVERYONE knows gays party and fuck off. Its what they do.

I'm sure you're right. Beacuse how would I know. I'm gay. I must have been partying and fucking off. Right?

Is this a stereotype?
Answer: YES it is.
Is it offensive?
Answer: Yes it is

[bridgit]

228. .......

[bitchkitty]

305. Just a heads up -

If you're going to be grammar cop, then I'll be spelling cop. Possessive - you left out an S.

[Zuiderelle]

327. A LOT of us partied and fucked off? It seems like you have some rarified experience with gay people

that makes you think they, whoever they are, represent all of us. It's a wonder Obama won the presidency with all those black people in jail. I mean seriously, why the hell do people get away with saying shit like A LOT OF GAY PEOPLE PARTIED AND FUCKED OFF, when they don't get away with similar racist shit.

You echoing and applauding that quote is beyond insulting.

[bridgit]

331. Nonsense, to have posted the excerpt would have engendered similar rage...

on your part for being less than complete when the operative passage is this one, "instead of going into the Central Valley and drumming up votes. The thought of the lost opportunity pisses me off to no end." I live in the Cent Valley, none of these matters are forgone conclusions here they require consistent vigilance. But you're right about this: my experiences are rarefied for many @ DU, and only some of them are related here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8034715&mesg_id=8034909

But no one really cares about the experiences of others, isn't that so? Nor does anyone care to know that one of the individuals within those related stories actually voted for McCain and oh BTW it wasn't me. So while people continue to insist upon *not* stepping back to view the larger picture, these aspersions, even such as these that are your's against others that agree with your position as a summary matter; will go on & on & on & on, round & round & round, but here is the upside...

You are under no obligation to respect me. Not only have I just keyed something you agree with which has been clearly so for some time, I've keyed something that is true.

And no, I have no interest whatsoever in pursuing the flip-side of that coin.

[Zuiderelle]

332. You know, I read that other post of yours and was appalled, but resisted posting.

"The drama!" as if all gay people have lives filled with drama. Really, WTF? Some PEOPLE have lives filled with drama, some people don't. It has NOTHING to do with being gay.

Fuck.

[bridgit]

333. "as if all gay people have lives filled with drama"? Even that was addressed...

in 'that thing', "Do these things only happen in the community? Of course not."

Look, I'm beginning to get the impression the larger picture isn't even able to be seen, maybe it's too large. As for my view, my experiences, the ones you hold as insulting? Forget me. I've already told my story here, and nobody fucking cares that's fine. That's my life. I've dealt with it, I've had to. I've tagged it & bagged it. It's pigeon holed. It's done.

Even where some paint me as unreal; my experiences do include real people with real, life altering, life ending consequences. And *that* is part of what centers-my-ass like no flip "discussion" here @ DU is even able to do. So that when we see out here, in the Cent Valley where it is all red look at the electo-map where there's some hard assed shit-heads; see prop 8 go down for 4%, the folly of it all comes crashing through and stands on our toes just smirking...

That's when...at least we know; that we need to flip that script. Push something here, pull something there. And get this fucking matter of vital import on the goddamn books! Losing for 4% is like having your hopscotch marker land on the chalk line and you lose your turn. It's bullshit!! No...no...you're right. Fuck me!! Jump into the DU-PM world and pass the word, many will confirm *for* you, "Fuck Her!! Good riddance to bad rubbish!". This fucking bullshit is too goddamn stupid!!

I'm shutting down the bridgit account: love to the lovers, peace to the peacemakers, everybody else can take a short long walk off a short pier

[Zuiderelle]

334. I don't even understand what you just wrote.

Let's go back to you quoting the quote you did. The one where you say that "Truer words have seldom been posted here @ DU"

"A lot of the gay community out there for the most part I think failed to realize that they were fighting for you too and not just themselves. A lot of them partied and fucked off instead of going into the Central Valley and drumming up votes. The thought of the lost opportunity pisses me off to no end. There were no massive protests until after the vote. But even with that the margin was 4%. It's going to be overturned in the Supreme Court here and in 2010, the voters will confirm it, by a slim majority, but they will confirm it."

That seems to be blaming gays for the vote. Why wouldn't we blame ALL democrats? It's not just about our civil equality, it's about Americans' civil equality. Our rights shouldn't be up for a vote in the FIRST goddamn place, and it's ALL democrats and Americans who care about equality who neglected to get the votes needed.

[27inCali]

336. I live in the fucking Gay Mecca of the World

I might have some fucking clue of what I am talking about.

I am echoing the criticism I have heard from many in the community who didn't realize how organized and ready the other side was until too late.

during the summer I lived in the Central Valley and saw no presence whatsoever from the no on 8 side.
Sure there was a lot of activity in the city, but it was just all the Liberals having a feel good moment with each other instead of going out and doing the hard work of pressuring the apathetic and shaming others into not voting for it in the less Liberal areas of the state.
Like I said, no massive demonstrations until after the vote.
I think a lot of people assumed it was California, the big Liberal state and that it was just not going to pass and underestimated the enemy.
Given the relatively close margin of 4% every last drop of effort that wasn't made really was the margin of the difference here.
I don't begin to claim there weren't a lot of smart people who were ready to put the time in, but a lot of people didn't get it.
The truth is that everyone, gay or straight in SF have a tendency to become insulated and to start assuming that most of the rest of CA are almost as Liberal as us, because if you live in a kick-ass place like SF, there really is no reason to leave, especially if you are gay and have to worry about getting jumped in some podunk valley town (I've had more than one gay friend who moved to SF from some other part of the country ask me to take them on a tour of the valley because they've never been there and are just curious) the the truth is that San Francisco is the most Liberal city on Earth, the Penninsula is also pretty Liberal, Berkeley, just as Liberal if not more, Oakland and San Jose are a notch or two down on the Liberal scale, East Bay places like Danville or Dublin are actually surprisingly Conservative, the Central Valley is getting more Liberal, but is closer to being a recently converted red state like Virginia were there the dominant trend is still center-right.
A lot of people, gay and straight, underestimated how much work would need to be done in the Valley to achieve victory.
Hopefully we've learned our lesson now and will be more prepared when we rejoin the battle in 2010.

[Vanje]

342. self delete- wrong place

[PeaceNikki]

343. What? You don't kneel and pray towards Stockton daily?

:shrug:

[27inCali]

346. I live in SF

grew up in Stockton.

haven't updated my profile
if that helps clears things up.

[27inCali]

352. In San Francisco

just about everyone is partying and fucking off, straight or gay. We all hated Prop. 8. But we didn't do enough. That's not meant to be some special kind of commentary on Gays alone.

we didn't do enough. All of us. And we, out of all Californian's, should have been the in the vanguard. We failed you and everyone else who cared about this.

[sundog]

226. awful n/t

[BlancheSplanchnik]

249. battle scarred? old?

the picture I get from reading you is a of freshman in college, feeling powerfully full of passionate, impetuous anger, but not yet able to listen to older more experienced voices.

[Vanje]

262. I'm a post menopausal adolescent

Acutely passionate!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

323. that's nice...now can you stop making the rest of us GLBT menopausal kids

look bad? You're damaging our cred

[BoneDaddy]

292. Because so many of you do that

what was the question again?

[Vanje]

22. I thought you wanted to discuss....

.... the economic stimulus package , how much of that stimulus will be used to create American-made cars that out-pace the Prius for MPG ,investments in wind and solar,tax breaks for buying green products or using green sources of energy and whether CA will get Federal funding for a high speed electric train between Sacramento and LA , immigration reform , Morrmon offshoot cults , millions of people being kicked out of their home,rebuilding New Orleans ,....... etc etc



Aint no one stopping you.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

Cali didn't tell anyone to shut up

Project much?

[treestar]

321. Telling someone to shut up after one thread is rude

Telling them to shut up after thread # 4,987 is to be expected.

To expect to drown out everything over one relatively minor thing is just selfish; in the US, no group of people is now so oppressed that they could expect everything to shut down for them, and that over the refusal of Obama to vengefully exclude people for thinking the old fashioned way they were brought up, wrong though it is. It cannot be corrected by punishing them by exclusion from all social events. It didn't work on us when they tried to do it to us.

LGBTs have all rights except marriage, and don't have that by tradition, not malice. It is being worked on, but in an age where people are poor and the economy is looking worse, people are being tortured or held indefinitely, it cannot be expected to be first and foremost. Straight people do matter (and gay people who fall in also for the economic and others issues).

[Vanje]

325. But thats just it. Some people DONT think of it as a "minor thing".

If it was YOUR civil rights, would it be " one relatively minor thing "?

I'm saddened that you think its "selfish" for us to focus on our civil rights.

I'm surprised that you dont recognize theres indeed malice behind exclusion of marriage for gays.

Do I read your post correctly? Do you really think that Obamas excluding Paster Warren from his inagural would be "vengeful"?

[Creideiki]

328. "LGBTs have all rights except marriage" and...

protection from hate crimes (terrorist activities against a minority community), work protections, housing protection, ability to bring a foreign partner into the country (legally, as a resident), and, and, and...

No, honestly, we don't have "all rights". We have the right to remain single--legally unknown to those we love the most. Wow, that's awfully compassionate. And all because, as you said, people keep falling prey to the Appeal to Tradition logical fallacy.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

7. Extremely well said...

I am proud to K&R!

:patriot:

[hay rick]

8. Speak for yourself.

I think it's SO MUCH BETTER now that every other post is devoted to screaming about two minutes on January 20th.

[Balderdash]

10. Yeah and every other post is devoted to telling teh gays

to shut up and get over it. I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hay rick]

218. A couple of points.

1. Whether the OP starts as "Obama hosed us with Rick Warren" or as "shut up and get over it" the result is invariably a thread in which the same people have the same heated discussions.

2. The get-over-it posts started showing up after the Rick Warren posts had taken over the front page of DU for what many viewed as too long.

Most of the people who post in favor of the OP in a get-over-it thread support full GLBT rights and think Obama's choice of Warren was a mistake. They are your allies. Abusing them does not help your cause. Use your anger and passion constructively. Try converting the undecideds or attacking your enemies instead.

[quickesst]

313. I remember......

....the accusations of racism aimed toward long-time, and respected DU members during the primaries. Reading DU during that period left the uninformed with the impression that this board was rife with racism, until Obama won. Then it seemed the accusations just died a quiet death. Whatever it takes to serve a purpose, even at the expense of the reputation, and character of our own. Where are all those "racists" now? Still here, fighting the good fight, and most with a new awareness that those types of accusations are just beneath the veneer of progressive ideals in many if it suits a purpose. Deja Vu. Thanks.
quickesst

[treestar]

322. There is not one post saying that

The complaint is the disproportionate nature of the problem. One could sympathize with a thread wishing we had elected a President who would pick a more neutral minister, but we picked one who wants to reach out, and does so by offering a position of very temporary attention and no power.

The 3,900 threads on DU give Warren as much attention as the invocation does!

Nobody'll be paying much attention to the invocation on Jan. 20. They'll be waiting for it to be over so that the new President can be sworn in.

I've never seen so much made of so little.

[Truth2Tell]

9. I see all kinds of posts

about every single thing you mention. So what the fuck are you talking about? Do you not know how to skip posts on topics that you don't want to discuss further? Or is there maybe a particular topic that you would like other people to not discuss?

What a strange OP.

[Vanje]

11. If you click on"Latest Discussions"...

You'll find about 28 threads that do not mention Gays or Warren.
You can read about
a missing baby,
polar bears,
a tornado warning,
The NRA,
Children Centers closing
, Jewish guys who write Christian songs ,
Life after Death (or not)
A pink hippo (SeRIoUSly!)
Whaling
A nasty Ash flow in Tennessee
Basque Seperatists in Spain
Karl Rove
Tension in Gaza with right wing Israelis
A car that runs on Lipo-sucked fat (Eeeuuuwww!!!!)
The stunning and talented Eartha Kitt
The Taliban
Cookie recipes
A shoplifting dog (Sheeptramp recommends this one!)
The Mother Fucking DUZYS!!!!!!!!

...
...

Thats only about 1/3 of the page down!


Now dont you tell me that theres nothing cool to read on DU.

All this great stuff and you write YET ANOTHER complain screed.
One would think you protest too fucking much.

[babylonsister]

13. Why, on DU, would anyone want to bring up Gays or Warren? If anyone

who isn't gay breathes a word, we are persona non grata.

Sorry, that stinks. I'm staying out of it, and that is why.

[Vanje]

14. Did you mean to reply to my post?

because, if you did, you're response makes no sense at all.

The OP writes complaining that there are no nice threads to read any more on DU.
I gave him/her a heads-up on where to find varied and interesting Warren-free , gay-free posts, so whats the problem.

Why in the world does my post "stink"?

[27inCali]

23. I just think it's at the point right now

where you see me as an enemy instead of an ally, which is a fallacy.

I'm just sick of watching people shoot themselves in the foot over this shit. I'm ready to find something here besides a constant outpouring of anger, bile and misery and a lot of people feel the same.

I just want to agree with you about something........fucking anything.

[Vanje]

25. I was posting to BabylonSister

I think she misread my post

[Vanje]

30. Hey

You're the one who stated in the OP, that you want to "wear my reproach as a mantle of honor."

Does that sound like an ally ?

Theres a video of a shoplifting dog from Utah. You can find it by clicking on "latest", as I pointed out before, up thread.

We can probably agree that its a really great video, and that is one smart canine.

[Vanje]

38. Its sweet that you are concerned about my foot

but I'm not going to be shooting my foot. This is not my first fight.
I'm not miserable, and I'm having no trouble with bile.

Your concern is cool. But I'm okay.
See to yourself. If you're having trouble with misery, find a way to have a better time of it.
Be good to yourself.

[bvar22]

54. If you are tired of watching people shoot themselves in the foot:

1)Stop watching.
There are other topics being discussed at DU.

2)Put down the gun.
See a doctor about the holes in your feet.
Start doing the things you say you want to do instead of your insipid whining.
You are making the problem worse.

[The Doctor.]

74. A couple of good points have been made here.

I've decided to spend more time in latest and make a point to K+R interesting topics... that have nothing to do with Warren or related issues.

Care to join me?

[Number23]

172. Great tactic. I've been kicking and rec'ing every non-Warren post for the last 5 days

Well, this being the exception. :)

Some of the things I've rec'd lately may not have actually warranted one, but I am determined that this site not devolve further. One day I cam to DU and all five stories on the Greatest Page were about Warren and judging by the feverish nature of the posts, anyone visiting this site for the first time would have sworn that DU was absolutely CRAWLING with people who were out burning the homes of gay Americans. It was disgraceful.

I think many others here feel the same because I've noticed fewer and fewer Warren pieces on the Greatest Page. Some of the stuff on the Greatest has been downright silly, but I think that just signifies how extreme Warren-fatigue is right now.

[shellinaya]

200. Obama needs our support

People who are regulars here who think Warren is being blown all out of proporation should stop this BS now. It's ruining the site for those of us who come here wanting to talk about real issues, not one idiot man. Warren is a moron. He's a short, stupid little man. He's being made into a 20-foot tall giant and he would love the fact that everyone is talking about him. The best way to take away his power, if he has any, is to ignore him. And everyone GLBT who attends the inauguration, turn your backs on him when he is up there. But meanwhile, this obsession with him is ridiculous. He's nothing in the grand scheme of things. GLBT rights don't depend on him, they depend on the law, so start working for laws that matter. All this obsessing about Warren is giving him POWER he never had.

Don't you get it? These people feed off notoriaty and most people are all too willing to walk into the trap.

Obama needs our support. 2009 is going to be a very difficult year.

[Raster]

81. Dude, if you're tired of watching people shoot themselves in the foot...

put down YOUR gun! And if you're "...ready to find something here besides a constant outpouring of anger, bile and misery...", don't start another thread about it.

[Vanje]

15. I said, "posts that do NOT include Gays or Warren."

Sheeeze!
Read THEN post

[ZombieHorde]

18. I have not found that to be the case.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[crispini]

50. Since you asked me to "see" this post in response to my post,

let me reiterate that I encouraged the poster to simply post about other stuff if he wished to change the discourse on DU. The post you reference in the thread is NOT "posting about other stuff," it's yet ONE MORE attempt to Net Nanny DU'ers, albeit a longer and more well phrased one.

Again, telling people how and when and what they're supposed to post, and what they're supposed to consider their priorities, just does not work to change the level of discourse. Creating your own threads on new topics does.

And now that I've seen THAT thread, the OP strikes me as even MORE of a "concern troll."

[CakeGrrl]

55. Well, it seems as if it's just "umbrage upon outrage" that's beginning to spiral

I've seen threads open up to ask "why can't people express their outrage?" What's the point of those threads? Isn't the existence of thread after thread after thread about Warren proof that people are expressing themselves to their hearts' content?

My question is "Why do people seem to be offended by those they consider to be 'Net Nannies'?" Clearly people aren't inhibited from opening a thread to discuss Warren or the implications for GLBT issues. Is it that people get really, really pissed at anyone seeming to suggest that they do something?

I submit that ANY directives given to ANY group on this issue aren't productive, IF in fact people are truly telling the GLBT posters to "get over it" or "sit down and shut up". If that's been happening, I haven't seen it lately. I did see several posters get TSed for choosing an anti-GLBT response to a poll.

It goes both ways. I've seen people say that non-GLBT community members need to learn to recognize GLBT anger or to get educated. What makes people think they don't recognize it or empathize? What do they want the non-GLBT members to do?

Having said all that, I guess it comes down to everyone deciding how pissed off they're going to be, and at what. And how much time they want to spend thread-hopping to say the same stuff. I'm definitely setting a limit for myself. After that, it's like the wheels are spinning.

[crispini]

62. Why do people get offended by "Net Nannies"?

Well, I personally don't get offended, I just think it's stupid behavior that's not going to change anything. The OP is complaining about people wasting bandwidth, and he wants to talk about more important issues -- I'm just pointing out that if you want to talk about more important issues, just go do that, don't be an attention whore and go all, "Oh Noes People on teh Interwebs are talking about Wrong Things I must CORRECT THEM."

This OP is *totally* telling people they need to sit down and shut up, albeit in much nicer terms. The whole gist of the post is about all the GREAT things that USED to be posted on DU but now-- OH NOES! -- that WARREN issue is here and drowning out everything else. The OP is mad and going to pout and wave their little fists because PEOPLE NEED TO BE POSTING ABOUT DIFFERENT THINGS! The horror!

I've been largely ignoring this issue myself because I made up my mind about it in the first day. Everyone else on this board is also free to ignore this issue as well. :D

[27inCali]

65. not more important, equally important issues

there's a lot of shit going on right now.

[druidity33]

77. i hate lumping together

I really don't get that the OP is telling people to "shut up" and it seems disingenuous for people to use that phrase for every iteration of the "please stop inundating us with Warren posts" post. I think the OP was trying to say "Hey, we at DU are on your side, why all the yelling at us?"


And i DO agree with the OP that the amount of outrage directed at the left needs to be directed at the RIGHT too. I'm sure if we here at DU were given the opportunity to pick who gave the invocation.... WE WOULD NOT have chosen Warren.


I also used to come here for news. The past couple of weeks it's been difficult to navigate through the roughly 50% of Warren posts and 20% of regular DU fluff to find the hard-core and timely News. No complaints here, just stating what's i think real obvious... when there are many, many posts on the same basic subject, cluttering happens. I for one am glad the sheer redundancy of posts on this issue has died down.

I heart LGBT people. I believe they have been wronged with this decision. I have signed petitions and written my Reps. I will stand tomorrow at town center with a number of friends with placards saying "Warren is a bigot", "Rick's a Dick", and "Gay Marriage works", etc. Yet i have been shouted at here, sneered at, called petty names, etc... all because i happened to have said out loud that "We still need to support our Democratic candidate". We can write to change.gov to voice disapproval (i have), but he will be our President fer cryin out loud. We will watch how he progresses carefully and hope he doesn't make any more huge gaffes, but we worked so hard to get the guy elected, what other choice do we have?


:shrug:

[27inCali]

59. part of discourse

is to persuade others to your views.

if people don't want to hear what we are saying, well what can you do?

we're all agruing about how to accomplish something here.

Or at least that what I think I am doing or want to do.

I'm trying to get people to hear an idea.

some people agree, some don't.

But am not a concern troll.

Concern trolls are Freepers who come here to kill our moral.

I want just the opposite.

[crispini]

70. Ah ok. There's the rub...

"we're all agruing about how to accomplish something here"

Nope. Very little gets accomplished on DU. Come here to get informed and to hang out and chat ... that's cool... but if you want to get something accomplished, you have to get offline. :D

[noamnety]

96. Insincere

If the OP had started that thread to discuss those issues, it never would have been a flame fest.

Instead, they opted to talk about how those issues should TRUMP equal rights, and people who were discussing equal rights needed to STFU.

Same here - the point of the OP is not to discuss the other issues at all, this is more about being a concerntroll that the other issues aren't being discussed because the noise glbts won't shut up.

If either of you want to start a thread about the economy, do it already. But don't start a thread about how the evil glbts won't let you talk about the economy and blow smoke up our asses telling us it isn't an anti-glbt STFU thread.

[bettyellen]

100. that OP was moronic and offensive- and it was another STFU gay people thread w the twist

or reason to STFU being the economy.
again if that poster wanted to discuss the economy why didn't they? why are they uisng warren threads as an excuse? do they realize the irony then in startng a warren thread?
now we are talking false outrage!

[Zuiderelle]

110. Are you kidding? "Whether you are straight or gay or what the fuck ever random group" Random?

You consider that to NOT be FLAMEBAIT when a post starts out with THAT?

:rofl:


GAY People are also under immediate threat of job losses and home foreclosure, and are also affected by the collapsing economy. And we suffer MORE so because we don't have a safety net that married people have... like being able to file taxes jointly so that if one of you loses your job, you save a LOT of tax money with just one income being filed for two people. You also don't have to worry about losing health insurance coverage, since you can be covered by your spouse's employer.

[27inCali]

345. I was expressing my contempt

for dehumanizing labels in general, anytime you label someone as anything, you reduce their uniqueness.

I would prefer to just see people as people and resent having to create categories.

I thought that would be self-evident. To the extent that it wasn't, I'll apologize.

I would say however, I think people are so touchy at this time that they are reading between the lines for motives that aren't there.

I've done it myself, so I don't really have any room for righteous indignation about it.

[Zuiderelle]

360. Until we have equality we can't get rid of the label. Without it, others can pretend that there's

no issue.

Yes, we're "touchy." That's true. And I intend to be "touchy" until I can marry my partner and have all the same federal benefits every straight person has access to.

[Number23]

177. That was pitiful, wasn't it? And I was surprised because the Banshees hadn't even shown up.

They may have been on their way and sent their emissaries ahead to warm up the place first...

[MADem]

69. I'm not gay, and not a single gay person on this forum has been unkind to me in any way.

And I've had plenty to say about the Warren business.

[AntiFascist]

12. You've been hanging out in GD:P too long n/t

[27inCali]

24. yeah, you're probably right

I think a lot of people have and the anger is through the roof because they aren't taking any break from it.

I don't think anyone is being convinced of anything right now, it's just feelings being hurt and people being alienated and blinded to each other's humanity.

I think there are wiser things we could be doing right now.

[AntiFascist]

35. I've been taking long breaks...

then I come back and think of more things to say and respond to. I think there is a real dialog taking place in certain posts and progress is being made. this is much more preferable than silence on the issue.

[Vanje]

36. "I think there are wiser things we could be doing right now."

No body is stopping you.
Do the wise things that need doing.

[27inCali]

44. the wise thing to be doing is to listen to what people are saying

to try to understand them as human beings,

not to quickly scan what they've said for a phrase to spin around into a pithy comeback.

the wiser thing to do is to broker peace among the Progressive ranks so that we have the strength to fix the million and one things that are wrong with the country, including the lack of absolute equality for all.

[Vanje]

48. Have you been a good listener?

?

[27inCali]

353. I'm trying

it's not always easy when people are calling me names and making really big assumptions about who I am or what I believe or feel based on nothing but some lame stereotype of what a miscellaneous insensitive straight guy is like.

[Cha]

189. Good

answer.

[zeemike]

16. You should have learned by now

That if you say anything at all about the flame wars you are telling gays to STFU.
Some here are fanning the flames and because they like the heat, and will not be dissuaded by reason,logic, or the appeal of unity.
K&R

[Bluebear]

115. Mr "Why I am not all upset about Prop 8 and Warren." - that thread sucked & still does.

That was not an appeal to unity, that was a dismissal.

[AntiFascist]

258. I'm fanning some of the flames because I think we are forging a new understanding....

and you might as well have said "teh gays".

[Maven]

17. So start posting about all those issues, concerned one.

Show us what you got.

In the meantime, since this a discussion board, everyone else will talk about what they want to talk about, and they won't ask your permission to do it.

[27inCali]

26. I'm not attempting to command anyone

only persuade them to think a moment about what is really going on here and whether or not it is really helping anything.

[Maven]

29. What's going on here is a lot of people who've had it

with being told to calm down, shut up, and now, be "tolerant" while someone who advances hatred of us rings in the president we helped elect.

What isn't helping anything is false friends who "support" us in the abstract but shout us down whenever we make waves and express LEGITIMATE anger.

Spare us your disaffected "reasonable onlooker" routine.

[27inCali]

32. the truth of the matter is that

Warren would condemn my lifestyle just as quickly as he would yours.

he's the enemy of both of us.

I say calm down, but don't shut up, don't be tolerant.

and standing outside in the cold all day long in fucking February to register voters is not support in the abstract.

I'm not saying the anger lacks legitimacy, I think you are pointing it at the wrong people, i.e. us, when you should being making the Mormon's miserable right now.

[Maven]

34. I don't have a "lifestyle"

Please educate yourself.

And the people who defend Rick Warren, and Obama for choosing him, while telling GLBTs that we're overreacting and that our issues are not a priority so we should shut up anyway--those people are decidedly not our friends even if they call themselves Democrats.

[27inCali]

40. I am an educated man

if you think the term "life-style" implies an element of choice than let me reword the sentence so hopefully you can hear what I am saying.

In my life, I do and am certains things that would make me just as much a pariah among those of Warren's ilk as you. You can choose to believe me or not, but I know it as truth. I see him as an enemy who needs to be embarassed and deposed, I have battled with and detested organized religion for a long as my conscious memory stretches back.

You are not overreacting, and I don't want you to shut up, if you think I am saying these things you confusing me with someone else or just not listening.

[AntiFascist]

145. You make an interesting point about organized religion....

such as Warren's. First they will try to strip the GLBT community's claim to humanity, but what comes next? The ultimate goal for any right-wing based theocrat is to relegate all non-believers to second class citizenship. They may appear to be as altruistic as they can, but placing their following above all others is their ultimate goal and it is incredibly anti-democratic. Anyone who is truly against democracy in this way SHOULD be viewed as an enemy of democracy. We can certainly tolerate their right to free speech, but we don't have to compromise one bit.

[Dennis Donovan]

72. I thought it was an "agenda..."

:rofl:;):hi:

In regards to the OP - if they find threads about the outrageous inclusion of a bigot like Warren in OUR Inaugural distasteful, they should just hide the fucking things. I'm not sure why posting about their distaste for such threads is important or relevant.:shrug:

[Zuiderelle]

102. Do you have fewer rights than other Americans because of your "lifestyle?"

1. Being gay is not a lifestyle, 2. It's not about condemning us, most of us don't give a fuck who condemns us and realize that there will always be people who do, 3. It's about someone who has actively worked AGAINST civil rights, to STRIP them of existing rights in CA, being given a global podium during the inauguration of OUR president.

We won't calm down. And we shouldn't calm down. You have the option of going somewhere else if you're tired of seeing threads from gay DUers who are upset about this. Personally, I'm tired of seeing people here telling us to calm down.

[Joe Chi Minh]

329. "The truth of the matter is that Warren would condemn my lifestyle

just as quickly as he would yours."

Well, I want to thank you and your friends, just the same, for not posting wall-to-wall protestations on here, as has happened recently re this Article 58 issue.

[CakeGrrl]

45. The OP tried that earlier - see the result for yourself:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8036150

Nowhere in that post do I see the GLBT community being told to "sit down and shut up". But ANY attempt to change the subject away from the fact of a 2-minute prayer that seems to be scheduled to take place despite 1000 protest threads on DU gets met with increasing hostility and snark.

At least there's one solid example on record now.

People are reading anti-GLBT intent where there is none. It seems as if some want to keep the fight going - and I'm not talking about the one to make sure GLBT rights are protected. That's not coming to fruition in this echo chamber.

[Vanje]

47. Its a discussion forum. People are discussing.

Its a discuission forum.
People are discussing.
What right do you have to "attempt to change the subject".
If you dont like a subject, find another thread, or start your own, on a subject which pleases you.

[CakeGrrl]

52. People have every right to open up a thread about a different subject

Just as YOU prescribe that I can ignore "discussions" or not, you can ignore threads like this as well. It goes both ways.

But this is getting redundant. There's very little "fact" to this situation:

Warren has been invited to give the invocation and all indications are that it will occur.

The Obama adminstration has posted its plans regarding its GLBT agenda. I'd bet Rick Warren wouldn't agree with a lot of it. But people who pay attention to what Obama's been saying wouldn't expect it to align with Warren on GLBT issues, since Obama has made clear he's in disagreement with Warren.

So, since no one will learn anything more about actual ACTIONS that will affect people's lives until the Obama administration takes over, it's a wait-and-see situation.

In the meantime, the "discussion" seems to have turned into multiple threads hashing the same opinions and speculation over and over. No minds are being changed. Those who expect the Obama administration to fail the GLBT community still think it will happen. Those who somehow think a Warren invocation represents Obama giving the nod to anti-GLBT attitudes still think so.

Those who want to see what the Obama administration actually DOES before deciding whether it's making progress are still of that mind.

It'll be interesting when there's more actual information to discuss.

[Vanje]

53. I must have misunderstood

I thought your initial post in this thread was to express displeasure at having so many such threads.

[CakeGrrl]

58. It's redundancy of the thread content that gets tiring

whether it's Warren, Palin, Rev. Wright, Hillary as VP or SoS, or Caroline in the Senate, my point is that at some point there is no flow of new information. You see opinions expressed and they don't change from thread to thread. Until there's a new development, it's a welcome change to see other topics.

[Vanje]

60. You know

There ARE other topics.
There are about 150 fairly fresh threads here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=latest_threads

Theres likely to be some NEW flowing information in one or two of thoise whjich might hold some interest for you

[CakeGrrl]

75. I'm sure there are, but to the general point, which has also been raised

(and shouted down) elsewhere:

How many threads do people need to fire up to express themselves about Warren? Someone counted about 600 in a week. And I know a lot of those posts are saying the same thing.

And the irony, not to open this can of worms on this thread, is that this really is becoming an echo chamber where people are trying to preach to the already aware. DU is founded in part on support for GLBT rights.

Maybe it's cathartic, but no really effective. I don't think many Saddleback Church members are over here being educated.

[Vanje]

135. So, according to you, I'm posting in an echo chamber

What the hell is your problem with what discussions I , or anyone else, freely take part in?
No one is forcing you to read this.
No one is forcing you to post here.
IF YOU DONT LIKE A THREAD, FOR FUCKS SAKE, DONT FUCKING CLICK ON IT.

We've established that there are plenty of threads here that are NOT about Warren, and teh gays.
Stop moaning about there being no information flowing at DU.
Dont tell other people not to post something cuz you dont like it, then come into the middle of the thread and fucking WHINE about it.

[CakeGrrl]

166. I'm supporting the OP in this thread. YOU came over here to kvetch at the OP.

If YOU don't like a thread, for fuck's sake, don't fucking click on it. Namely this one, for example. This isn't a thread about what a grievous mistake Obama made to invite Warren, so where does the interest lie for you?

And yes, you're angry. That's abundantly clear. Truly. You're going to stay angry until...whatever you want to see happen happen with regard to Warren.

But, as others who have been shouted down have said, I'm not sure what you're expecting to change by proclaiming "We're here, We're Queer, Get Used to It" on DU. No one on DU is bemoaning the presence of "teh gays", even if you want to think so to keep the arguments alive. :eyes:

The few occasions where people were caught expressing anti-GLBT views were dealt with by handing out TSes.

So, at the end of the day, you can fire up another "This is why Obama is so wrong about Warren" thread. Or five or six more if it makes you less angry. Good luck.

In the meantime, I just might continue to support the opinions of others who wonder what is actually, tangibly being accomplished here on a message board where people are raging at others who are already on-board with the issue that has them so angry.

I have to give it to you - "nuclear" is the word.

[Vanje]

171. You're funny!

If you read your own posts in this thread, you'd be laughing!

[CakeGrrl]

179. Dude, I'm just not gonna argue with you. If I make you laugh, then good on me

for helping lift your mood.

I'll just say that I hear what the OP is saying.

There's a whole lot of shit going on out there with Israel going on the attack, with the economy quickly tanking, with people holding onto their jobs and homes by their fingernails. If people are set upon for asking to discuss that on GD-Presidential, where we expect the POTUS to deal with more than one issue at a time, I may throw them a post of support if they're accused of telling the GLBT community to "sit down and shut up". The sheer number of Warren-related threads is proof positive that no one is being inhibited by fellow DUers.

[Vanje]

185. I'm not a "dude"

I'm a middle aged lesbian.

If you're so concerned with Israel, how come a search of your recent posting history shows that you only post on "Warren-related threads" .
If you're so concerned with the economy,, how come a search of your recent posting history shows that you only post on "Warren-related threads".
If you're so concerned with the number of ",Warren-related threads" how come a search of your recent posting history shows that you only post on "Warren-related threads".

Give the OP a search.
He hasnt made one single post on the topics he claims to be interested in.
He is disingenuis . The OP is dishonest .
He's a transparent troll.
(also....I supect he drinks a little on a late late Saturday night. He did actually profess his love for me. No . Really. He did.)

But by all means , give the thread another hundred recs because teh gays make you MAD MAD MAD!

[CakeGrrl]

196. Sorry, should've looked at your profile..."Net Nanny 2" would be a better guess

Since you like to check up on people. But I'm not biting.

I sometimes lend support to posters when it looks like a pile-on. I don't go in for conversational chat. That's how I choose to post and balance the time I spend in cyberspace, which I try to keep from being too much.

Why do you think I'm mad? I asked what has been asked before: Whether so very many redundant threads on a forum that is intrinsically pro-GLBT is productive. If you want to interpret a civil inquiry, free of CAPITAL LETTERS and free of name-calling as 'hating on the gays', I can't do much about your need to escalate it into a challenge.

You know nothing about my personal relationships with GLBT people in my life, be they friends or relatives. Don't presume to label me a "gay hater" with your hyperbole. It's unfortunate that I have seen a number of DUers have to make that very request, and so many others claim they don't see the problem. Why people are taking aim at fellow members of their community I don't get.

If you want to take on people who truly hate "the gays", duke it out with the Freepers or on a Saddleback forum. Getting people to think over there would be the real "win". But I guess I'd best be careful about offering a civil suggestion lest I'm lambasted for "telling the gays to leave DU". :eyes:

[Vanje]

215. I never never NEVER

characterized you as a "gay-hater". Your insinuation that I did is dishonest and offensive.
I NEVER used the words, "Hating on the gays", as you very dishonestly imply.

Capital letters? YES! I use them.

[bridgit]

225. That's nonsense, Karl Rove never used the words 'hating on the gays' either...

he just had his toadies slip flyers with Mapplethorpe pics under the windshield wipers of church goers and the rest of the blanks filled in themselves...if you are all about accusing others of dishonesty, you may do well to look into your own mirror first

[Vanje]

231. ?

You've interjected yourself in my resonse to someone else.
Next time read the subthread. Dont just barge in mid way.

[bridgit]

235. You...interjected yourself...into mine...up here...as I was posting to Cali...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8036794&mesg_id=8038549 Are these the sorts of things you reserve for yourself and yourself alone? Because I think you're beginning to exit the rose garden of commonality

[Vanje]

238. Again

your post no doubt makes a lot of sense to you.
I cant make head or tails of it.

[Name removed]

243. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bobbie Jo]

272. At the risk of "interjecting myself"........LOL

:rofl:

[bridgit]

278. By all means!

:spray:

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CakeGrrl]

204. I agree with your point. But the problem right now

is that you cannot, absolutely cannot express this opinion that sometimes this will occur amongst a few individuals without being labeled a hater of an entire demographic of people and their fight for their rights, as nonsensical as that is. I'm involved in an exchange elsewhere on this thread that threatens to devolve into just that.

At some point, it becomes about walking away from the exchange and letting it be. I've found that it can actually work.

[bridgit]

211. Most understood & thanks!

:)

[AntiFascist]

259. No minds are being changed ?!

WRONG...I'm seeing an incredible amount of support from DUers who are not part of the GLBT community, including some who I have disagreed on liberal issues in the past, and I see this as a very good thing. If you want to change the subject, you don't do it by posting thread after thread asking if we can change the subject...since when do you need our permission?? Just change the subject and keep the thread kicked with the changed subject, for chrissakes!

[polmaven]

136. But more and more often,

people are not "discussing" as much as accusing and blaming. That is not good for anyone.

What I have not seen more than a passing reference to is Warren's views on women and/or our issues. I think that, if there were NEARLY as many "discussions" started on that subject, the "sit down and STFU" posts would clog every one of the internets tubes for the next month of Sundays.

I was once called a Nazi...yes on this board...for saying that I thought we should make sexism as unacceptable as racism in this country.

We should, of course make ANY type of bias and bigotry unacceptable, but you didn't hear me say that, OK? I can't even imagine what name I would be called for THAT!

My point is that discussion should advance a cause. Name calling, accusations, and blame never do that.

[K Gardner]

79. Perfect example of the state of DU.

[Maven]

140. Absolute bullshit. That's yet another "shut up about Warren" thread

Not to mention that post is one big pile of straw, namely, that choosing Warren might help stave off the Depression (!) and that those who are upset about Warren are drawing attention away from "bigger issues."

In other words, the same, "you're trivial, get over it" bullshit we've seen a million times just hidden behind another issue where it has no business being.

What's obvious to me is that this poster absolutely WANTS to keep posting about Warren, like the many other antagonists who claim they want to "move on," when really what they want is to shout down people who object.

[bridgit]

169. Agreed...

[Hippo_Tron]

19. DU goes through a constant ebb and flow of infighting

And during the periods of infighting, you are indeed correct that informative threads tend to not appear on the first page of GD or GDP. But you make it sound as though DU has changed, which it really hasn't. It was like this during the primaries both in 2004 and 2008.

[Number23]

27. HAPPILY Kicked and Rec'd. Hell yes...

[rollin74]

33. excellent post

I totally agree

[lamp_shade]

42. Well said.

[crispini]

43. "Be the change you wish to see in the world,"

In other words, if you're interested in reading and discussing other stuff, it might be more effective for you to lead the way in posting those threads about other issues that you are interested in, rather than trying to be a Net Nanny and come on here bitching about other DUers' concerns and interests and basically telling them to STFU about equal rights because you're bored and you'd rather read something else now.

[CakeGrrl]

46. See my post #39. n/t

[27inCali]

49. you are interjecting a whole lot of shit that isn't there

I don't supposed to tell anyone what they can and can't do.

I am saying there are other things that matter too. There are people out there that are hurting really bad too that have done nothing wrong and need help. There are a lot of people out there that will be hurt really bad in the future if certain problems aren't solved soon. The injustice visited upon the GLBT community is not the only injustice in need of setting right in this country, that some DUers have pretended that Gay Rights are the one and only priority of Progressivism serves only to divide us at a time we need to be united.

[crispini]

51. Fine. Feel free to post all the OP's about those topics that you want.

But simply coming on here and whining about the level of discourse on DU will do absolutely NOTHING to change the level of discourse on DU, and is simply going to get you called a Net Nanny, as you have already seen several times in this thread.

[27inCali]

61. I know, I know

I'm fighting a lost cause.
I don't even post that much really, I usually just read.
got tired of watching people who agree for the most part tear each other apart like mortal enemies.
it's just no good.

[crispini]

64. Ah yes. Well, "just read" different threads....

... poof, problem solved. ;) Seriously, the Warren issue has almost entirely disappeared from GD. I think that's probably a better forum for non-Warren issues at this point, haha.

[Balderdash]

85. I've responded to lots of other posts on several different

issues. It's like your saying that gay folks can't think about and do something about
"other" progressive issues because we're too invested in OUR issue. First you've got
no way to prove such a thing and second it's completely false. I'm not just a progressive
because I'm a lesbian, I'm a progressive because of all the issues that we care about. But
right now "my" issue is on the front burner for me. And from what I can tell our screaming
and whining has actually done some good. The good Reverend has had to go out in public
and try to defend the indefensible, he's getting some fairly ugly press and that works
for me.

[Zuiderelle]

105. Nice straw man. No gay person on DU has ever said that GAY RIGHTS are the ONLY priority.

Point to one post that claims that. Just ONE. You can't, because it isn't true.

It's threads like yours here that makes it very clear to me that we GAY PEOPLE are doing the right thing and speaking up. Instead of allowing people like you to shut us up, we're keeping it up. I love that!

ROCK ON GAY DUERS!! :yourock:

We've finally found our voice here and we're not SHUTTING UP!

[Vanje]

151. I am rocking on!

Rock on also , friends and supporters of gay DU-ers.
You guys keep me coming back.
Your support bouys me.

[shadowknows69]

191. Because your voice here has always been stifiled

Give me a break with the DU persecution complex, it has little to no basis in fact.

[DevonRex]

88. He never said stfu. nt

[radfringe]

56. it's a swarm

thou shalt not criticize anything connected to the dem party. not allowed. forbidden - hence the limited and repetative nature of
the posts.

It's one reason why I don't hang around the DU as much as I use to... found somewhere else...

DU might as well hand you a 'script' to copy/paste whenever you log on

[MADem]

66. HIDE THREAD is your friend.

If you don't want to talk about a subject, why, stop talking about it. Start threads on topics more to your liking. Invite your friends to contribute to said threads, if you know that they are about topics that interest them.

No need to "nanny" or scold those that do want to talk about an important issue that, believe it or not, is going to resonate in the months and years ahead (like it, or not)....and that is what your post is doing.

And no, that's not a flame, it's an observation.

:hi:

[27inCali]

68. I got you

I was a little flustered while writing the OP, have calmed a little now in the wee hours.

I just want the hurt to stop, I don't think it's good for us to keep tearing at each other. I think we all need a break even if we don't want one.

I all down for some Equal Rights, just the unmitigated anger going on scares the shit out of me.

We've been waiting so long to fix all these things and here we are slaughtering each other over every nuance of our language when obviously, we all want the same thing.

[MADem]

71. You're new. This is nothing.

There have been other wars and purges. There will be more.

This is simply passionate discussion. It's useful. It helps people who haven't really had to confront the issues (because, you see, All Politics is Local) to formulate and hone their views, to take a gut check, and establish how they REALLY feel. There is, no doubt, some surprise bigotry rearing its ugly head, too. There are some people here who simply wish those queers would shut the fuck up so Barack can begin his great progressive journey towards turning America into the United States of Peace and Candy. There are some people here who think human rights should always ride at the front of the bus. And there are some who fall somewhere in between. And there are some who don't know what to think--they believe in civil rights, but they also want those pesky gays to just WAIT FOR AWHILE, because, after all, you've waited this long--why not just a bit longer?

And of course, everyone is "well meaning." No one thinks they're being unreasonable. It's always that OTHER asshole who is being unreasonable.

Again, I would sincerely recommend the HIDE THREAD function. It comes in handy when you don't want to be beaten to death with a topic. As for the Warren matter, I don't think the topic has been beaten to death, yet. I don't think it will be until sometime after Inauguration Day, or unless and until Obama sends a different signal about the issue that is clearly articulated and understood.

[Bluebear]

113. Don't worry! Look down thread, you have plenty of "well said"'s and "recommends"

Be very proud!

[tomp]

73. arrogant bullshit.

dedeclue is that you?

[DCBob]

76. "Being a member made you feel like a well-informed, plugged-in human being."

27inCali wrote: "You used to be able to come here to DU and gets all kind of weird, random information nuggets about politics and world news, lots of cool little facts and opinions that gave you an expanded perspective on just about anything and everything that mattered. If any interesting articles had been published lately, you get to read a preview, get a link to the whole thing with a fun list of commentaries from like minded people."

======

Totally agree. That is how I got hooked on DU. That aspect of DU seems to be missing now. Hopefully it will soon come back. I will do my part to help bring it back.

[DemBones DemBones]

78. Agreed. nt

[K Gardner]

80. K&R. Well said.

[pleah]

82. K&R n/t

[zulchzulu]

83. Feel free to start a thread on the great topics you brought up

I agree that the topics tend to be just hit-and-run OPs on Warren with little substance or value other than for me to just hide the thread. I've discussed the many parameters about issues regarding Warren and such and put in hours doing so.

It's gotten to a point where we are just giving Warren more attention than he deserves and participating in a discussion where Warren will finally still be doing a two-minute prayer that will be far overshadowed by all the other events is pointless, in my view. Some will hate me for saying that and even accuse me of being a homophobe. Such is the level of dialogue on DU these days.

I feel like I need to preface any commentary on the subject with the fact I agree with same-sex marriage and have spent much time/hours participating in LGBT grassroots efforts over the years. That even gets laughed off by some with the predictable "you could never know since you're straight" or even accusing me of lying about being out there in the street helping in the fight for equal rights for all. It's like going to a shitty public school with disheveled punks in the stairways looking for a cheap reason for a fight.

I fully expect 8,000 more Warren threads in the next 24 days leading to the Inauguration and then practically none after that due to how little Warren's invocation actually meant in the ceremony.

Start a thread on subjects you feel need to be drilled down with.

[NJmaverick]

84. Here! Here!

:applause:

[Raster]

86. It's: "Hear! Hear!"

http://www.reference.com/search?q=Hear+hear
----------------
No snark. I've made the same grammatical faux paux and then looked it up. Just sharing...

[NJmaverick]

89. Well I'll be damned. Thanks

:hi:

[Raster]

92. My pleasure. Have a GREAT day!

:hi:

[racaulk]

94. I thought the expression was "Hear here!"

Huh, you learn something new every day.

Thanks! :hi:

[Vanje]

138. Isnt it?

With hand- gestures.
When you say the second "HERE" you point to one or both of your ears.
Makes a lot of sense that way, No?

[Raster]

245. That would also be correct!

[JNelson6563]

87. Great stuff.

I too miss the days of many topics discussed in depth. DU is much like MSM these days, one story repeated to death. Everyone kicking off a new thread on the same thing cause their view is so very important and special, it is too valuable to waste in a reply to an existing thread.

And don't even get me started on how GD is morphing into the lounge.

Julie--glad at least LBN has continued high standard

[Upfront]

91. Well Said.

I could not agree more. Thank you for a great post.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jumptheshadow]

97. This din will be over in a heartbeat

Barack Obama is the one who can end it.

[Zuiderelle]

99. The information is all there still, just clouded by threads like this one.

You can click the little red X next the ones that are cluttering the experience for you. But, unfortunately, you can't ignore your own thread, so this bit of noise will remain.

[PeaceNikki]

101. Considering that 9/10 of the active threads by OP are about this topic, it rings a bit untrue.

:crazy:

[Zuiderelle]

103. LOL! Nice.

:banghead:

[reflection]

104. It's not just DU.

Our country has lost the ability to see nuance of any kind. Debate has been reduced to scorekeeping. We root for positions as if we were watching a football game. (Disclaimer: I say this as an avid football fan) Once we pick our "team", the mind clamps shut and our position is set in stone. We see only 'red' and 'blue'.

[Zuiderelle]

108. Exactly. Which is why there are so many here who don't want to criticize Obama.

You're right. There's more than just red and blue. Having a blue president doesn't mean that he's infallible. We have a responsibility to speak out against things that are wrong, no matter who they come from. We need to keep Obama's feet to the fire and not just "cheer on our team" simply because he's a Democrat.

[reflection]

111. Oh, absolutely.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. I elected a president, not a Pope. My tiny screed was certainly not limited to people who are giving Obama grief right now. The other side is just as culpable.

[bluedawg12]

106. Why didn't you post about the other issues then?

[tandot]

107. Thanks, 27inCali. Great post! K & R

:hi:

[NYC_SKP]

112. Recommended. nt

[Brazenly Liberal]

114. That's an interesting list of thngs you want to talk about

So why don't you? Instead of starting yet another thread telling other people you don't like their conversations, why don't you start one of your own?

The same method you used to post this complaint about what others are posting works just as well for saying something about the economy, high speed trains, urban sprawl, etc. The "I am here. Entertain me." approach doesn't work nearly as well.

[polichick]

116. You can start a thread about anything you like - as can anyone else.

[slackmaster]

117. A lot of people on these forums don't know how to win gracefully

They remind me of my ex-wife. When the going was tough, she was a fighter. We worked well together on hard problems.

When things were not so bad, she'd take a small problem and make it into a big problem.

When there were no real problems, she'd create one.

She always had to be fighting something.

[Bluebear]

118. Maybe she divorced you because you thought all her problems were small ones.

[slackmaster]

120. That was certainly part of it, and a valid analysis from her POV

From my perspective, she didn't know how to be happy.

[polichick]

121. Happy, on your terms?

[slackmaster]

122. I mean happy at all

It's not easy living with a person who is chronically depressed.

And it wasn't all about me. She was chronically unhappy before she met me, and she's still that way.

[fed_up_mother]

The depression I can take, but I can't take chronically angry people.

And I say this knowing that I was once somewhat like that. If I wasn't fighting a cause, I was looking for a cause to fight, but - DAMN - there's more to life than fighting.

[Vanje]

139. !

Oh snap

[Toasterlad]

316. Maybe You Shouldn't Invoke Your WIFE in An Analogy of How Gay People Have No Real Problems.

[slackmaster]

324. Did they stop teaching basic reading skills in public schools in this country?

I got a decent education, but I graduated from high school in 1975.

[Bluebear]

119. EVERYBODY sing . . .

Memories,
Light the corners of my mind
Misty water-colored memories
Of the way we were
Scattered pictures,
Of the smiles we left behind
Smiles we gave to one another
For the way we were
Can it be that it was all so simple then?
Or has time re-written every line?
If we had the chance to do it all again
Tell me, would we? Could we?
Memories, may be beautiful and yet
What's too painful to remember
We simply choose to forget
So it's the laughter
We will remember
Whenever we remember...
The way we were...
The way we were...

[cliffordu]

123. Cool. How about 'do it yourself' flamiage??

{insert insult here}

[Peacetrain]

124. Now that was funny!.. I needed a good laugh this AM

Do it yourself flamiage.. :rofl: I don't know why that strikes as so funny, but it just brings up all these funny visions of people talking to themselves.. and losing the argument

[bertman]

125. Thank you, 27inCali. Recced.

[NikolaC]

126. K&R

:kick:

[Rudyabdul]

127. I agree. I used to really enjoy coming here too but...

... this incessant complaining and pity-parties is really getting old.

The GLBT community is fighting the wrong battle. Instead of complaining and fighting to keep Warren from giving the invocation at the inaguration, they should be focusing all their energies on getting http://www.gaycitynews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20227808&BRD=2729&PAG=461&dept_id=568864&rfi=6">Prop 8 overturned, finding out what they can do to speed things along. That's the best way of defeating Warren and his ilk.

[Vanje]

340. ...and you've been coming here for....oh, a week now?

Of the 51 posts you've made during your LONG tenure (week) at DU , 50 posts were on this very subject.


So tell me ; How was DU different when you "used to really enjoy coming here"?

[Umbram]

128. LBN (nt)

[RetroLounge]

129. So on page one of GD:P are two threads by you

bitching about the same thing, circular firing squad, etc.

and no threads by you about all the other stuff you mention. Why?

What's keeping you from posting all these important news nuggets?

or is it easier to just bitch and whine?

:puke:

RL

[fed_up_mother]

130. When I first got here I really liked this board for its information

but - I agree - it's hardly worth coming anymore. Little news, and even less stimulating discussion.

:hide: :hide: :hide: :hide: :hide:

[cwydro]

131. K & R.

I haven't been visiting DU in over a week and was amazed to see this still going on.

[Not Sure]

132. My head just exploded

This post illustrates not only how I found DU during the Katrina fiasco (it was one of the few sources of news that didn't just robot the same freakin news stories, it had news stories I didn't find anywhere else. The comments about those news stories are what kept me around. The constant flow of news kept me coming back even after we got a handle on what was happening in NO.

Ever since then, I've come to this site daily. Lately I can barely get past the front page. I appreciate the the struggle of Prop. 8's fallout, but this post illustrates everything else that is going on in the world. Everything else I expect to find on DU, cussed, discussed and dissected in a way that teaches me something.

[Number23]

182. Wow!! Your screenname is nothing short of PROPHETIC!

twominuteshate :wow:

[Name removed]

134. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NancyG]

141. Agree. I no longer come here first...

or last. I miss the tidbits of knowledge I ate up here.

[NancyG]

150. But, then, if keeping the passion up,

in the end makes a change in this world, that's good.

I'm not talking about just Prop 8, where I'm hoping that the passion will result in a change, but I'm talking about how there seems to be a Topic of the Day or Week, like Caroline for Senator or Hillary for SOS, that uses so much of the space here.

I'm not for stopping any of it. It just that it seems to mirror the MSM hooked on one topic at a time.

[Political Tiger]

142. Ignore and Hide! Ignore and Hide!

That's my new motto.

I never put anybody on ignore until recently, and I've done this because I've noticed that every time someone posts a thoughtful post about this Warren issue, within two minutes the same people show up attacking the poster, not the OP, but the poster, accusing them of telling gays to "STFU" although nobody said any such thing, or complaining that you'd feel different if you couldn't get married, blah, blah, blah...

There's only so many times you can say the same thing over and over and over before it loses all meaning.

They say if you're straight you're a homophobe/bigot, and if you're gay you're a house gay/self-loathing gay.

If you say you don't approve of the Warren but don't feel it is the biggest issue of the century suddenly you are an Obama apologist and/or Obama is your Messiah.

Again, there's only so many times you can say the same thing over and over and over before it loses all meaning.

So, if I see someone saying this shit that we've heard a hundred thousand times already, I put them on ignore.

If I see a thread that is being flamed by these people I hide the thread.

It's unfortunate this has to be done, but the flamers have no intention of letting up or engaging is any type of civil discussion whatsoever. They are all about attacking. They've formed this mob mentality that not only makes them and the gay community look bad, but is also backfiring by turning people off to the gay community and the issues that effect us.

[marimour]

144. great idea!

I will do my part my hiding and then responding to discussions that actually have to do with real policy, not a rant about a 3 minute prayer.

[Vanje]

148. I'm not standing in your way

You're very free to go and do that.

[PatSeg]

149. I guess I've gotten in the habit

of getting a lot of my news here as well, but lately the atmosphere has been much too negative on a regular basis. Its such a shame, as this was a great place to discuss current events and politics.

I'm tired of being angry. After the last eight years, I need a break.

[City Lights]

152. K&R nt

[Bobbie Jo]

153. Recommended.

:kick:

[Unca Jim]

154. An apparently-needed heads up.

There are a lot of casual users of DU that just look at the greatest page for news. The greatest page has been dominated by "I lost my rights" and "no you didn't, relax" and "everyone here hates everyone else" threads for a while. It gets old.

Just saying it gets old is not telling anyone to shut up nor is it telling them they didn't lose their rights. Me feeling it gets old is not saying my annoyance is equivalent to your lost rights.

Because people are sensitive now having lost their rights it often happens that they hear all that and more, then lash out. Which is also getting old.


That is all.

[K Gardner]

170. A must read response. Well done.

[Vanje]

173. Look at "latest "

Right here , to find a splendid diversity of topics:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=latest_threads

[Coexist]

156. kick

[Duval]

157. Amen! K&R (nt)

[Danger Mouse]

159. No flames here, just a hearty recommend.

[dccrossman]

160. K&R

:kick:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

161. yes before july 2008, we didnt have you posting three times that you dont care about warren

yes three threads about it.

those were good times

[27inCali]

357. I don't post very often

I mostly just read.

When I write, it's because I feel really compelled to say something.

People keep taking this as STFU, it's more just, show some fucking respect in the way you talk to each other, you can disagree without flaming.

There are some people on both sides of this issue that are acting like children, and I'm blown away by the idea that there are even sides to this issue here. I think some people disagree about exactly how to react to the situation, which in itself seems fine to me. I'm lashing out at the pure flaming for flaming's sake, it's just alienating everyone and not doing squat to advance Gay Rights and probably just hurting that movement.

We should be talking about this, just not shredding each other. Talking about Warren does not have to include all kinds of wild name calling and hateful accusations. That doesn't help anyone. It weakens us, it weakens the movement towards the things as Progressives we want to see happen.

I'm tempted to believe there are some long term trolls on here playing both sides trying to keep the ugliest of it going because they know the more they divide us, the most they hurt the changes of us uniting and pushing a strong Progressive agenda. I think there are a lot of people who are just letting their emotions get the best of them and are, without realizing, helping those trolls do their work of dividing us.

[cbc5g]

162. Don't you get it? Warren and gay marriage are the most important issues

EVER.

j/k

just hide thread and ignore...

[Bluebear]

175. I notice a lot of members who joined in 2008 feel as you do.

It's just interesting, whereas many who have been around don't seem to want to trivialize or "kid" about various issues. We have kept our eyes on many issues at one time.

[Exultant Democracy]

164. So funny I was just saying this to my girlfriend.

This place is pretty useless right now.

[Deja Q]

165. I'm bi and I agree with you and your OP 100%.

There's plenty of issues to discuss and I am not a one issue person.

If some people are so anal retentive they can only thrive on one topic, I feel as sorrow for them as I do for naive folks like this Warren guy.

[sundog]

230. how surprising

[Zuiderelle]

241. Of course you are, and of course you do.

:eyes:

And god knows you don't thrive on just one topic... namely, yourself.

[AZBlue]

167. K&R

Thank you!

[Sandrine for you]

168. Yep some are hijacking DU.

[Bluebear]

176. LOL

[leftstreet]

174. The only weapon we have in The Class War is our WORDS

Stop telling people to stfu

In doing so, you aid and abet the other side.

:mad:

[shadowknows69]

192. Here's a question. Do you think preaching to the choir here is actually accomplishing anything?

Maybe you should be licking a stamp for a letter to the President Elect.

[leftstreet]

206. Apparently some members of the 'choir' are a little off-key

Practice, practice.

[hangman86]

178. Obama ran as a uniter

but his election divided the DU like crazy.

[Balderdash]

183. Obama has never divided DU. nt

[20score]

180. Thanks! Great post. In the last week I've had someone insult me while defending Cheney and last

night I wrote a post about the media and congress, and was told the post was bullshit because I didn't mention Obama. I don't mind disagreements, but insults because you ask for people to help make the country better, are a bit much.

K&R.

[DainBramaged]

181. I read your post today and just finished posting about 10 "news" stories

and some human interest stories. You are right, it's time to get back to basics here.


Unless of course, you want to talk about that guy at the innaugal.

[Garbo 2004]

184. If you really want to talk about those other subjects, why aren't you posting threads about them? nt

[cooolandrew]

186. HELL YEAH, Amen fellow DUer! I think all avenues on the Rick topic are drained at this point there >

are some bigots in the nation who knew *shcok faint *

[Bluebear]

194. 'at this point there are some bigots in the nation who knew *shcok faint * '???

Eh?

[Toasterlad]

314. Punctuation Is Your Friend.

Especially if you want to be sarcastic about other people's civil rights. If you can't make yourself understood, people will just assume you're an asshole. Which, come to think about it, saves time in your case. So, never mind.

[NoSheep]

188. Here here!!!

:bounce:

[leftofthedial]

193. Your outrage fatigue is outrageous.

Obama's working on his package? Er, his stimulus package? Er, his economic stimulus package?

Why would you possibly want to talk about that? He isn't even president yet. Outrageous!

[Divine Discontent]

195. again, people are more than welcomed, and capable of making posts about all the issues you bring up

and if they merit attention, they'll certainly get it, but to deride how other people are choosing to spend their energy is an attack - and that just seems so petty.

To throw out a laundry of problems, and claim these are problems too, while not giving any tidbits of articles, no links, and no personal opinions on solutions just seems like you're blaming other people for something you're not trying to solve.

Again - why must people attack other people for their choice of where they put their time and energy?

This is a big moment in GLBT history - we just lost a bitter and disputed fight in CA, and it has energized the Democratic base to stand up for GLBT rights - I make NO apologies for where I put my time, who I make calls to, and if anything else truly merits time & energy it will be given what I feel it needs from me.

[shellinaya]

197. I hear ya

I haven't been here in a while so what is it people are currently obsessed with here? I suspect it's the irrelevant Warren.
If so, I have two opinions on him: 1) People like him grow stronger the more they are talked about (like Ann Coulter) and 2) He's really truly irrelevant and 3) he's got the right to believe whatever he wants about marriage. It's not worth a civil war. His viewpoints are just not that important to the law. They don't impact the law. Most of the country doesn't even know who Warren is.

I came here today to see the outrage against Israel and what I saw first of all was the thread in favor of Israel, so I've seen already how this site has changed for the worse. It's becoming like the worst magazines -- too specialized to one or two issues. And... This isn't the liberal place it used to be. Maybe the election did that.

[Bluebear]

198. If you claim to be liberal and say Warren is truly irrelevant, maybe you should do some reading

You don't know what he is about and what impact he is having on glbt's rights because you think reading about him will give him "power". I suggest you delve into it a bit more before dismissing it.

[shellinaya]

202. No impact

Warren has NO impact on gay rights. If you care about gay rights, work to get the laws changed. Don't spend a bunch of time on a forum trying to convince people Warren is more important than he is. He's nothing. Treat him that way. Most lawmakers are reasonable people. Take it to the supreme court, get good lawyers, but stop this obsessions with Warren. Most people are sick to death of it.

[Bluebear]

203. 'Warren has NO impact on gay rights' - Warren helped pass prop 8

As far as being sick to death about it, shame on you.

[Rudyabdul]

208. Yes Warren helped pass prop 8 but...

like I said in an http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8036794&mesg_id=8037460">earlier post YOU can help get it overturned.

[donco6]

306. What?

That's your response? A minority population of 2-5% is supposed to be able to overturn an amendment to the state Constitution? An amendment that Warren spearheaded with the support of evangelical and fundamentalist Christianity and Mormonism? The same Warren who has been given a place of honor at the inaguration of the guy we already worked our asses off to get elected? The Warren who actually worked for the OTHER guy?

That Warren?

[Rudyabdul]

338. I see you didn't go to my previous post...

[donco6]

341. Yes I did. Doesn't change a thing.

Both posts say the same thing - "you're wasting your time" being pissed about your candidate's choice of a known homophobe for a speaking honor, a 'phobe who actually worked FOR Prop 8.

I disagree. We have every right to be pissed. And we can work to overturn 8 at the same time, with no help from the guy we worked to elected.

[Kittycat]

199. I love your suggestions.

Lately, I've all but completely stopped visiting. I don't know at this point if it's going to be worth it for me to re-up my membership. I see nothing wrong with having threads on the outrage topic of the day, but when they consume the board to the point that other topics get drowned out by the 100 threads in the last 20 minutes on the same topic - it becomes pointless.

I'm pissed about the Warren thing - but it's not the only concern we have going right now (as Democrats). There are a lot of concerns and topics that need addressed, discussed, educated on, etc. Sometimes I just feel like this place is turning in to a big hate hole. People that are clearly never going to be happy with anything, ever - and always find fault in something. Those types are fine here and there, but I'm beginning to feel like they sent out web alerts, and had all the complainers, thread killers, and faux/extreme outrage posters join all at the same time to drown out other valuable discussions.

[Tarheel_Dem]

239. I'm sad that I can't recommend your post. And agree wholeheartedly.

In the last two weeks, I've been called a "homophobe", a "centrist piece of shit" a "gayhater", etc. ME! ferchrissakes. If they only knew. I find this passage to probably be most accurate:

"Those types are fine here and there, but I'm beginning to feel like they sent out web alerts, and had all the complainers, thread killers, and faux/extreme outrage posters join all at the same time to drown out other valuable discussions."

Spot on!

[Grinchie]

201. K&R, But what you ask is for people to think.

And a lot of people today are uncomfortable with the hard questions, and would better let them rest in some cubbyhole in the attic of their minds.

Thinking hurts for these people, so they drown it in booze, hate, blame and apathy, and the media exploits this common thread in todays American society masterfully. The media, by not shaping the important conversation, prolongs the continula dumbing down of America, and serves the goal of driving more consumption for those that would like the hard question to remain buried and ignored, saving them lots of money.

I have gladly given my opinions of what we should do, but until people actually start thinking about where they get their water, where they flush their waste, and how unhealthy their food system has become, and the inhumane treatment given to animals that they eat, I am afraid that they would rather eat some cookie where the boss gave the workers a bonus check for Christmas. Forget about the ingrediants.

When city planners promote farmland into McMansions because it is the "Highest and Best Use" they destroy important farmland that will never be reclaimed without incredible costs. California has lost so much valuable farmland in the latest Bubble and I have abandoned it. Sadly, most of the homes are used by people that can't comprehend how to grow a house plant, let alone a squash, persimmon, or Peach tree.

They produce more mosquitoes with the Cement pond full of green water than anything else of value, yet the city prospers on taxing them, and associating productive farmland in a similar higher tax bracket due to its proximity to the Suburban sprawl centers.

There are so many issues to discuss, it's difficult to know where to start, but I have found a philosophy that works for me.

1. Remain ethical and honest to what you believe in. This is incredibly aggravating, as you will find it very hard to make simple goals, such as buy no product that contains harmful ingrediants, utilizes unhealthy processes, is improperly labeled, manufactured in a Country where environmental laws are ignored, or electrical equipment that does not clearly state the energy it consumes, and this include labels written in 4 point font in raised black plastic. Never buy an item that does not have access to readily available and affordable spare parts or consumables, like lightbulbs. Any thing like a filter or other built in obsolescence needs to have a good reason for existing, and not the primary money flow or the product.

2. Hire only people that charge what you would like to be paid for doing a job, if you had those skills, tools and experience. This is pretty hard to do, since sometimes you won't know what's involved in a task, such as replacing a fgaucet until you actually do it. Pipes rot, valves break because they are made my slave labor, and or city water is full of crap that clogs the pipes as well as the intra cellular ocean in our bodies. If you get a quote for a job that obviously would not pay the wages of the poor immigrant that will eventually show up to do it for the boss, then find another contractor. If a contractor or handyman doesn't do EXACTLY as you say, fire him on the spot, and that include Noise, using power tools where unnecessary, and bad attitude when asked to do things your way. Do NOT BE FOOLED BY HOME DEPOT Handymen. They are the ones that think a set of cheap tools will allow them to do any job. Always get 2 or three estimates on any work and do the numbers. Sleep on it. Delay if necessary, you might find the repair was only cosmetic and not needed right away.

3. Stand up against bellowing ignorant hateful people, but don't get suckered in to a flame war. Make your statement and let them explode. Most knowledgeable people readily identify Contextomy, and don't know you from john doe. When they bellow, just dissect their attempt to shift context, and whistle a happy tune. They'll get the message, or spend enormous amounts of energy trying to get the last word. Ignore them.

4. Change your own life first. It will heal your body and soul. Enlightend people will flock to you, unenlightened will just get mad that you have want they cannot achieve. This is normal, and seems to be part of human nature, to place blame on ones personal situation on another, despite the fact that we control our future with our thoughts and actions.

5. Everyones method of evoking change is different. I'm a farmer, so I farm healthy food. This task alone is a nightmare, since the GMO's get so much benefit from the Corporate media and heavily influenced USDA, EPA and the FDA. I develop systems of growing food that require little or no touch, using systems that have been around for millenia. They work, thay are hidden treasures, and the Bulldozer wipes them out in a blink of an eye. U.S. Corporate Agriculture is monocrop oriented, and the bugs love it. My farm looks like a forest, until you start hauling tons of food out of it. It even feels like a forest, and the food appears only when you stumble across it or don't know where it is. The weeds feed the insects, so they don't eat my food. The weeds provide notrogen so I don't have to fertilize. The tree's shade the understory from the harsh sun, so I don't get sunburned, and the plants stay hydrated. The Overstory changes the wavelength of the light, so beneficial molds and fungus can do their work breaking down organic material. Taken as a system, there is an overwhelming amount of food for every type of creature, so pests are not a problem. Everyone has enough to eat, from pollinator to pest, to bird and bee.

They do not teach this in the Corporate funded Schools. They teach Area calculation, plant row spacing, herbicide amount calculation, fuel and fertilizer, harvest and transport. Not to mention the loans to pay for all these inputs. It's a sham system which performs well in one respect, but generally unsustainable and unhealthy when take from a system view. If the future farmer just does as he or she is taught, they are taught a system that is designed to promote unsustainable farming. My goal is to amaze people when they visit my little garden of eden and trigger the magic in their soul to see the difference one person can make, working with nature instead of destroying it and starting from scratch every season.

6. Question every thing you encounter written by experts. I used to believe in the educational system, and dosument tests and all that, but over the years I have found a lot of so called books that contain known errors, or are just a marketing avenue for a certian type of product. Question the items you have in your house. When replacing and item that failed, ask "Why did it fail?" Would replacing it with equivalent be appropriate? Most of the time, if you examine the REASON why something was built a certain way, it will make no sense. Feel free to research and find a better solution. A good example is a water heater. Would you replace a tank heater with another tank heater? Could it not be better to wait for a Hydrosonic Pump, using 1/100's the power, on demand, and 1/10th of the space with no venting or gas?

Would you invest in Solar panels for %25,000 when there is technology that makes electric motors nearly 100% efficient, vs the 40% to 80% that we have today? My philosphy is to wait for a better product, or build it yourself and show the non believer.

As for Pelosi, I have written my letters, I'm done with that turd. Bush will get what he deserves, and I will promote that with focused energy on that channel.

Thats my philosphy.

Peace

[BlancheSplanchnik]

260. Time to refocus.

4. Change your own life first. It will heal your body and soul. Enlightend people will flock to you, unenlightened will just get mad that you have want they cannot achieve. This is normal, and seems to be part of human nature, to place blame on ones personal situation on another, despite the fact that we control our future with our thoughts and actions.

right on!


I donated to Planned Parenthood, and we are focusing on grassroots living strategies.

If planned parenthood were closeby I'd volunteer.


I've been giving too much of my energy to getting irritated at irritating people!

Wonderful post, thanks!
:thumbsup:

:hi:

[Uncle Joe]

207. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, 27inCali.:thumbsup:

[sundog]

209. used to be able to come here way back when in june 2008?

:wtf:

[Bluebear]

219. They grow up so fast.

[sundog]

274. it's like "species II"

the du remix

i'll play marg helgenberger

[Vanje]

221. Sonny boy! Those were the days!

DU was all happy smiling people holding hands........That , and the primary wars.

[QC]

236. By cracky, back in our day (six months ago) people knew how to discuss!

[Raster]

242. June 2008...it seems like ages ago. Men were men and only married women...

Gayz did not go nuclear, we all discussed all manner of important things and sang Kumbaya. Yep, those were the days.

[Vanje]

265. and Kitten threads thrived throughout the land! nt

[Raster]

266. oohhhhh the kitten threads. Now there was some worthwhile conversation.

[Orsino]

210. ...without seeing yet another new back-door Warren thread?

Yeah, thanks for that. Thanks for posting on all those other topics instead.

[George II]

212. Great post - DUers have to stop being one-trick ponys and look at the BIG picture!

[Bluebear]

214. So true, why we've discussed nothing else here for 7 years!

:eyes:

[George II]

287. You missed the point of the OP and mine...truly pathetic.

[Kip Humphrey]

213. OK, here ya go (no flame)...

QUESTIONS/ISSUES:

Right now, I -and I'm sure a few others- want to talk about

1. the economic stimulus package Obama's working on,
   I want to talk about
   
2. how much of that stimulus will be used to create American-made cars that out-pace the Prius for MPG.
   I want to talk about
   
3. what kind of investments will be made in wind and solar,
   
4. what kind of tax breaks will people get for buying green products or using green sources of energy and
   
5. whether CA will get Federal funding for a high speed electric train between Sacramento and LA.
   
6. How are we going to reform immigration?
   
7. What are we going to do about these Mormon offshoot cults that are setting up child molestation factories in the rocky mt. states?
   
8. What are we going to do about the millions of people being kicked out of their home?
   
9. When are we going to rebuild New Orleans?
   
10. What are we going to do to combat urban sprawl which causes wasteful use of gasoline and destroys valuable farmland?
    
11. Can we start talking about scrapping the Federal Reserve and having the Government print money directly as opposed through a private entity that charges interest and inflates the national debt?
    
12. Constitution amendments to limit the rights of Corporations when their actions negatively effect their communities.
    
13. What about health care? Getting the cost of prescription drugs down for seniors,
    
14. funding the VA,
    
15. what are the details so far for the withdrawal from Iraq?
    
16. What are we doing to calm down tensions between India and Pakistan?
    
17. Should we back off of our current alliance with Pakistan?
    
18. What are we doing in Afghanistan? are we just going to fight?
    
19. -or modernize their mining industry to undercut the poppy trade?
    
20. convincing the AG to investigate war crimes anyone?
    
21. The Republican's just got caught red handed murdering a whistle-blower with a plane crash

COMMENTS/OPINIONS:
1. Trickle up stimulus can circulate 6 or more times in the economy multiplying its reach and impact.
2. We desperately need a revolution in energy in order to save our planet. Changing our transportation infrastructure to a sustainable, renewable model REQUIRES a massive government investment and R&D effort along the line of the Race to the Moon.
3. Government investment in green energy will require the building of a new electric infrastructure that emphasizes local power generation and sharing with high efficiency transport for non-local generation (super-conducting electric backbones).
4. The tax structure MUST be remade, eliminating all tax breaks and requiring ALL corporations to pay their fair share. Self generation of power and water will proceed by mandating that excess power be sold over the grid at commercial rates (everyone can become a power company). Cost reduction can be achieved through government investment in R&D and scaling up mass production technologies for delivering renewable energy components and systems.
5. A single high speed rail line linking Sacramento & LA is woefully inadequate. What's needed is an interlinked affordable transportation system across California major towns and cities combining high speed electric rail with readily available and convenient local transport that works with California's sprawl. Low cost, rental fleets of GPS & WiFi connected electric personal transports that can be easily picked up and dropped off may do the trick (think of luggage carts at airports).
6. The solution to extra-legal immigration resides south of our border and within corporate boardrooms. Solve the Central American poverty problem and you solve our immigration problem without building walls. Eliminate illegal hires (i.e., jobs for extra-legal immigrants) and provide carefully thought out foreign stimulus with necessary reforms to Central American governments and economies.
7. ??? Religion is an antiquated artifact of ignorance and fear. It needs to be de-emphasized to the point it can be "drowned in a bathtub".
8. First, make null & void & illegal all predatory contract provisions. Then, provide 30 year 5% fixed rate mortgage refinance through Fannie/Freddie.
9. Set up and fund a New Orleans Redevelopment Authority to review & fund green rebuilding projects submitted by homeowners (30 year 2% fixed loans to 100% of delivered costs). Rebuild the dikes to cat 6 strength).
10. Develop a new green energy transportation system using the auto manufacturing bailout as a push-off point. Initiate a carbon tax and change real estate taxes to a housing square footage tax, exempting organic live-on farms of 600 acres or less.
11. Good luck. Congress is too inefficient to manage the economy in a timely manner. A congressional agency might suffice but is probably unconstitutional. Until solutions can be devised and fully vetted, transparency and accountability can be mandated and implemented.
12. Use legislation to rewrite corporate law to require perpetual majority corporate ownership by employees.
13. Universal single-payer health care as a right. Negotiate prices on a national scale.
14. Roll Medicare, Medicaid, and VA medicine into a single-payer universal health care system & fund the VA to specialize in traumatic war injuries.
15. Convene an international conference to identify Iraq's needs in order to achieve a peaceful withdrawal and Iraqi success. Then, fund the solutions in a coordinated manner. Move our troops from the cities, giving the cities over to Iraqis and relocating American troops to patrol the borders. Phase the withdrawal over 9-18 months, turning over border security to Iraqis in the process.
16. Get Pakistan and India's leadership talking and negotiating to resolve their problems (Camp Davidesque). Bring the Taliban in to negotiate and resolve peacefully their regional and local issues. Provide economic bilateral support. (See #7)
17. Pakistan has new democratically elected government that is fragile still and needs help addressing its problems. We need to be engaged to help solve their problems.
18. Negotiate; work to replace poppies with productive crops and commerce; seek a political solution that addresses the unique characteristics of Afghan society and rule. Help the people and they will help themselves and, ultimately us.
19. Modernize their mining provided the mines remain in Afghani hands; rebuild their infrastructure and finance Afghani business start ups.
20. The war crimes of the last 8 years (plus the last 30 years) requires public hearings and trials to ensure this shit never happens again.
21. There's no question the Connell death must be fully investigated with prosecutions to follow wherever they land. Further, our election systems MUST return to paper ballets, hand-counted at the precinct level to ensure our elections can never (again) be stolen through electronic means.

Have at it...

[Vanje]

222. The OP dosnt seem to be here today

(I think he might be a tad hung over. The poor little thing.

[Creideiki]

232. This one was kind of tricky

It's sort of an Appeal to Emotion, but in a negative sense. (I want to talk about X, so everyone should want to talk about X with me.) It's not really, though, because no one is stopping the OP from talking about X.

It's also sort of an Appeal to Popularity, but also in a negative sense. (Everyone loves topic X, so X is good and right and we should talk about it.) It's not really, though, because no one is saying that we wouldn't talk about global warming or whatever else is interesting--it's more about circumstances.

I'm going to go with Poisoning the Well: I'm not interested in talking about Warren and gay people are talking about Warren, so it must be the gays fault.

Don't worry, I won't recommend, but I will alert, because this is pretty much calling out other users.

[sundog]

233. You used to be able to come here to DU

and not have to deal with cro-magnons

at least not in bulk quantity

[Miss Chybil]

240. K & R nt

[Th1onein]

244. THANK YOU for saying this!

Anyone else who has said anything like this has been condemned, however, as homophobic and other not-so-nice tags. We ARE Progressives. Our umbrella is wide, but sometimes it's really good to be adults about things.

[Zuiderelle]

247. Your thread in GLBT asking homosexuals how they feel about homosexuals...

and saying that asking if one is gay is the same as asking about their sex lives leads me to not be very surprised that you think this is a good OP.

:eyes:

[Th1onein]

251. You can't compare the two, PelosiFan.

THIS has nothing to do with THAT, however much you would like to make it seem so.

I am tired of the arguing and talking about one topic, when there are so many that should be addressed. Most people on DU are, I think.

YOU, for one, made me sick of the topic, in fact.

[donco6]

307. Me neither.

That and other things.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

248. "sometimes it's really good to be adults about things"

That oddly enough doesn't include hearing "gay person" and instantly thinking "GAY SEX!"

[Th1onein]

252. Only homophobes think that way.

Keep on going nuclear though. Keep on finding fault where there is none. Keep on taking innocent comments out of context. Keep it up.

You aren't doing yourself any favors....

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

253. You said it, I didn't

"going nuclear"

:rofl:

[Th1onein]

254. Have you not posted many, many times on the same subject?

Rick Warren? That's what I'm talking about, when I say "going nuclear." That's what a lot of people on this forum are talking about.

I think it's pretty sad that you would take an innocent comment that I made in another post, blow it up all out of proportion and then follow me around, from post to post, making snide comments about the same post.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

256. I've responded to exactly *two* of your posts

And, I've been staying out of the Warren issue the last couple days, because certain people have gone "nuclear," and it's not the people you're talking about.

[Th1onein]

263. Two - one in here and one in another forum?

Hmmm?

[27inCali]

264. people are pulling that shit on me too

over simplifying my arguments to the point they become a meaningless charicature.

the original intent of the OP was the criticize the name calling and bile, not the fact that any one was discussing Gay Rights/Warren/Prop. 8.

We should be talking about those things and others. I want to know what the fuck is going on, like for example: what's the news with Jerry Brown, when is the next hearing taking place? how soon will we find out if CA SC will overturn prop. 8? Who's working on getting the funding together for a new prop in 2010 so the voters can confirm it?

those are the things I want to hear about right now: facts, info, enough of the self-righteous opinions where a handful of people pretend they represent the hard-line stance of millions of others.

[Th1onein]

270. Sometimes I think there are some on here just to drive wedges between Progressives

n/t

[donco6]

308. What's stopping you?

Post away.

[Vanje]

267. Whoo Hoo!

A straight person gave me permission to go NUCLEAR!

Boom! Boom! Boomidy boom bomm!

[Bluebear]

255. He prefers you refer to ourselves as "homosexuals", btw.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

257. Thank you for reminding me

[Vanje]

268. I'm a Homo. You're a Homo. We're ALL Homos here

Homo sapiens!

[Th1onein]

269. How very sad that you would twist things like that.

You really, really need to go read the original post.

[earth mom]

246. People said the same thing about Impeachment-that there were too many threads

blah blah blah-and look where that got us.

Obviously we all gave in to the loud and nasty naysayers because we got NOWHERE with Impeachment.

Now we are supposed to kiss Obamas a$$ & cheerlead everything he does?! :wtf:

How in the hell is that any different than what the freepers do with *?!

If that's how it's gonna go we might as well say FUCK IT ALL and go back to watching teevee and charging up our credit cards at the mall. :eyes:

[BlancheSplanchnik]

250. OP and rebuttals K and R'd nt

[Stump]

261. Entirely too much bitching going on around here...

K&R And speaking of Prius's...I went out today and traded my Prius for a brand new Chevy Malibu. It gets 33 MPG and is a hell of a lot more car for a lot less cash than my Prius. I hope quality cars like this are a sign of things to come for GM...

[TomClash]

271. Amen nt

[ThisThreadIsSatire]

275. May I have your permission...

to post this in its entirety on my website as an editorial? (We can remove reference to DU -- make it more general - your call - which would be no less appropriate -- You specify how it should be credited.)

Amen, (brother or sister)

well stated.

[27inCali]

354. go for it.

just credit my screenname

[CatWoman]

279. This will make your day

:)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3661608

[Balderdash]

310. That doesn't really work very well since the post above

the one you're complaining about came first. We don't randomly come into
threads and bring up Warren to spank people for their causes. But people
do come into the Warren threads to tell us how to behave, what to believe and
to stop making waves. I would have normally added a nice comment to that thread
because I think having the Arkansas 9 on stage with Obama is a pretty cool thing.

[SwampG8r]

280. i only have enough

reproach to cover a 5 inch square
but if you fold it nice you could wear it in a pocket maybe?
accessorizing is important!

[Richd506]

282. K & R

[ramapo]

283. This place is bumming me out

DU is becoming home of the nattering nabobs of negativity, to use an old favorite. Amazing that after eight years in the wilderness, people here are ready to rip each other apart, and some are deeply into it.

This place is becoming a bad joke.

[Lance31]

284. 50th POST!!!!! I post about filmmaking and the movie I am shooting, I figure

its at least a bit different. I could scream about politics, but I feel I would be preaching to the choir.

[bridgit]

286. Welcome to DU, my husband's a filmmaker...

I wish I could get him to consider coming back in to talk with normal folks, but I was warned in advance about this place. Welcome to DU all the same :kick:

[knixphan]

344. welcome from yet another filmmaker-

[Hekate]

285. Excellent post. KnR. nt

[Horselover Fat]

288. Was it even this bad during the Primaries?

[Skittles]

289. yes - only the hatred was directed at Hillary

[BoneDaddy]

290. Because so many are just about ME ME ME

and cannot think beyond their own personal jihad.

[bridgit]

291. Not anymore, lately it's just the weird & random

[Prepostericity]

293. Uhm, no

"The Republican's just got caught red handed murdering a whistle-blower with a plane crash -and none of us are talking about it. WTF?"



We're being told by an insular group of people associated with the Speedway Bomber, Brett Kimberlin, that Mike Connell was threatened by Karl Rove. Yet, there is zero proof that this guy was ever threatened. Most important, there is zero proof that this rightwinger was gonna whistleblow.

Remember the Jason Leopold thing about Bush and Cheney being indicted? Remember how embarrassing that was? Remember how discredited progressives and the internet in general were because of that asshat? The same exact type of thing is going on here.

I personally believe that there is election fraud in America. But if the big stories getting out to newbies and fence-sitters have zero credibility similar to the kind one would find on World Net Daily, we are in big trouble if we think the internet has that much potential to promote positive social change.

I am very discouraged when I see posts claiming that Mike Connell was murdered by Republicans. He was not a whistleblower. If you look closely into this story, you will find a mountain of discrepancies. Often times things are covered up. But other times what we think are censored stories are actually misinformation and rabbit holes. While people are diving into the Connell was a whistleblower nonsense, they are going to miss reading and thinking about things that really matter. Don't let "them" force any zeitgeist on you.

I was disappointed to see yet again someone declaring that the Republicans got caught red-handed killing a whistleblower. There's no truth to that.

I despise closed-minded debunking, but there is a need for facts and consistency, not innuendo and conjecture.

[NancyG]

294. MoveOn has an interesting take ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/26/AR2008122601299.html

After Bush, will MoveOn live up to its name?

This is the end of the article:

... The goal, says Pariser, is to “make sure Congress is squeezed between a progressive president and a progressive constituency.”

Or, as Trippi puts it, members of Congress who stand in the way of Obama’s program “are going to find themselves between Barack and a hard place.”

This kind of work won’t necessarily generate the kind of buzz – good or bad – that the group’s “General Betray Us” ad garnered. But while MoveOn has thrived on “big, galvanizing teachable moments,” such as the impeachment or the war in Iraq, says Hlinko, the organization can also likely afford to fly under the radar for a while.

Unlike some advocacy organizations that need to generate conflict in order to stoke their supporters and raise money, MoveOn has remained “lean and mean,” with a small paid staff and little overhead, he notes.

“What that means,” says Hlinko, “is they can afford, I would think, not to have a big battle. If there were a couple of hundred people , they might need to pick a fight” in order to survive.

For his part, Pariser says he will do what his members want, no matter which way it takes the organization or what the implications are for its future. “I believe the fact that we hear something from all over the place at the same time means it probably is what we should do with the country,” he says. “I maybe drank the Kool Aid in civics class a little too much, but I think if you put your faith in that, you really don’t go wrong. People gravitate very quickly to the big things that are at the core of their problems.”

[Hellataz]

295. K&R

It's sad that it's so common place to attack people's idea's and opinion with ease on message boards. Instead of taking the positive from someone's posts, people are so quick to tear it apart because it doesn't match their own 100%. I thought at the very leas tDU was a place that would be immune from that, but it's just like all the rest. I guess, sadly it's just human nature.

[Deep13]

296. Who's stopping you? nt

[bridgit]

299. Duuuude...they are...

:hide:

[Deep13]

300. You mean gay activists who worked towards O's victory ...

... with their time, effort and money and who O has chosen to cast aside now that he has gotten everything he can use from them?

No they aren't. We can still talk about whatever we want.

[bridgit]

301. No, 'them', the faceless 'they' they're the ones whomever they are...

The ones that keep us from talking about "whatever we want" the ones that are able to do so and so they do, the ones that keep circumventing our better angels cause'ah options yeah; that's the ticket: them, those guys, those gals, maybe they're robots who knows who can say for sure :shrug: and even if you could you'd be shut down

[Vanje]

302. Its like some kind of Random Nonsense generator

posted this

[bridgit]

304. Yes Mommy...

[Toasterlad]

312. Wrong Place.

[Mz Pip]

303. I have to agree with you

DU has almost become a one issue forum. It's unfortunate really.

Obama is about to take this country in a completely new direction. While I can be disppointed that Warren will make a 2 minute speech during the Inauguration I can still be thrilled that this is an historic election that will take this country to a much better place. For everyone.

I am celebrating this election and will celebrate on Jan 20.

[islandmkl]

309. 24 hours...

300+ comments/responses/etc....

great post for community-involvement

[Toasterlad]

311. Apparently, You DON'T Want to Talk About Economic Stimulus.

Apparently, all you want to do is post yet another thread telling gay people you're sick of their whining.

You're an attention whore. I fed you this once, but don't come looking for seconds!

[Raster]

318. No worries. He has PLENTY of others willing to feed the beast.

Plenty.

[27inCali]

347. I want to read about it for sure

it's not about attention, I don't think Gays are whining, and try looking carefully for the place that I say that. I'm complaining about the name calling and bile coming out of both sides, there's just a point at which you make a topic totally toxic to the point that it doesn't get discussed because people are scared of what kind of crazy shit they will be accused of if they disagree or leave a careless phrase that can be twisted the wrong way. It should be discussed but without the creation of false dichotomies as a cheap excuse for people to flame fucking everyone and everything. I think there are just a lot of cats here right now that want to burn the motherfucker down regardless of who it hurts and that's just stupid and unprogressive.

and what do you know? you're calling me names, throwing convenient labels at me, not actually debating any logical point in my argument, just attacking.

and that's exactly the thing I am arguing against in the OP where it comes from the STFU assholes or the handful of morbidly pissed off Gay DUers who think for some reason they can speak for all Gaydom as though it were some monolithic cult of automatons. If it were true, there wouldn't people assholes using absolutely fucked up terms like "House Gay" to shout down whoever doesn't toe the line with the morbidly pissed off 8.

I think it's appropriate for there to be some rage and some venting, even that Warren threads have dominated for a while because it's very timely and it's exactly the kind of thing real Progressives care about. At some point the endless anger and back and forth becomes morbid. It's like having a shitty day at work and coming home and beating your spouse. What the hell did they do to you? Why didn't you take it out on the people who really had it coming? I think of a list of people "the Gays" should be angry at and looks something like Republicans, Evangelicals and Mormons, I don't see fellow DUers on that list. I think there is a handful of assholes on either side, flaming away either because they are because they are very patient trolls with high post counts waiting for the right moment to sow discord.

Don't shut up. Don't ever shut up. But do show respect to the people who are on your side.

[Vanje]

348. You "dont think Gays are whining"

But apparently you DO think gays are "Partying and Fucking off".

[27inCali]

349. you keep saying "gays"

like every gay person on earth has the same opinions as you, are doing and saying and feeling the same exact thing as you and it's just weird to me.

I live in SF, I spent time at gay art/music events and you know, for a lot of people -me included, because I'll be the first to admit I made the mistake too- it just wasn't on the radar, we were talking about everything else, no one seemed worried, we all assume we'd run up the numbers in the Urban centers and wouldn't have to worry about the rest of the state.

If you lived in CA, you'd know what I'm talking about, barely anyone on the NO side got serious about it until the last month and we let the other side have all summer to do the critical ground work. On the night of the election they even paid for a plane to fly over the city with flashing lights saying "vote YES on Prop. 8" for fucks sake. We were just way out gunned by all the money pouring in from out of state.

I'll admit the words "fucked off and partied" sounds a little glib, but if you lived in the city, you'd know what I mean, that's pretty much everyone's MO.

[Vanje]

351. We are not amused!

you keep saying "gays" like every gay person on earth has the same opinions as you, are doing and saying and feeling the same exact thing as you and it's just weird to me.

Thats a strange conclusion.
I put an 's' at the end of the word, "gay", when I'm indicating the plural of the word. This is fairly common practise.

I never have claimed to speak for the anyone other than myself, Though, maybe I ought to take it up, because then I could sound like the Queen of England :
"We are not amused!"

I'll admit the words "fucked off and partied" sounds a little glib, but if you lived in the city, you'd know what I mean, that's pretty much everyone's MO.

Whos generalizing about a whole group now?

[27inCali]

358. I am making a generalization

that I think is relatively harmless. My point being, it's not some Gay stereotype, but my general experience living in a major city. There are bars and clubs everywhere and on any given night of the week there are all kinds of people on the streets, club hopping, drinking, smoking weed, having a good time. My point was, here are all these people who got it, and wanted Prop. 8 to fail, but didn't realize they had to do something about it besides wearing a sticker on their jackets and having the occasional right on moment about it with their friends. I was just as guilty as a lot, and now I regret it.

[QC]

315. All three of your current OPs in this forum are about the Warren controversy.

More specifically, all three of them are threads in which you tell people to shut up about Warren.

Clearly you yourself are more interested in discussing Warren than those subjects you claim you are not being permitted to discuss.

[donco6]

319. And after whining about no posts on other subjects.

Can we say . . . HYPOCRITE?

[27inCali]

350. I don't like to post that much

I like to read.

I like to catch up on what other Liberals are up to and thinking about.

The mindless vitriol at every fucking turn was getting under my skin.

everyone should stand up for themselves.

[Vanje]

355. He's too busy

"partying and fucking off" to post

Edited: Wait. I gotta take that back. He said it was the gays that were too busy "partying and fucking off" to get anything accomplished.
27inCali must have some otherthing going on keeping him from getting involved in the topics he claims to be interested in.

[Vanje]

356. ..,,

everyone should stand up for themselves.

Thats what I'm doing, Bucko. Thats what I'm doing.

[27inCali]

359. You've made your decision about me

nothing I can do or say will change it.


I'm not even angry, just sad and emotionally worn out.

Quite a few posts ago, I told you that I loved you, I don't know if you caught that and I know that sounds weird and you probably just see it as some form of condescension, but I just had a moment where I stopped thinking about the back and forth of the argument and more about the human on the other side -you were telling me about where you were from and your age and I started thinking of a friend of mine in his 50's who grew up Gay in Florida. His parents sent him to electro-shock therapy to try to fucking fry him straight. He always ends the story with a punchline about getting a hard-on every time someone flicks a light switch, when he first told me, I tried to laugh but couldn't, I felt I was staring down into an abyss -I guess some things are so insanely painful that you have to have a kind of gallows humor about it to survive it (there are a few issues in my life I can't even joke about yet, even when I try and I don't know if that is the measure of the magnitude of that hurt or my lack of spiritual strength as a human being), but I can't even imagine what kind of fucked up relationship I would have with my family after something so absolutely fucking insane as what my friend went through, I would be the most bitter motherfucker on the face of the earth, but somehow he's this jovial, laid back guy who likes to spin records and talk music and philosophy all day.

So I guess this is it, because I just feel right now like I'm poking you with a stick and being an ass and not accomplish anything, I don't wont to be misunderstood, I want the breakthrough that gives you some relief, not just me, but if it's not going to come, then why torture ourselves misunderstanding each other over and over again?

I believe every human being experiences some profound injustice, for some it is a momentary thing that they are given a chance to outlive, for others that injustice hangs over them their whole life. You can never know by the generic indentity tags we use today like gay or straight, white or black just exactly what kind of absolute misery may be dogging someone's existence. We can never know mostly becuase people hide their hurt somewhere way inside and ignore it as much as they can, revisiting it only in occasional dreams from which they awake in a state of unbarable meloncholly, and even if we were able to dig down and find this pain in another, the price they would pay in having their shame exposed to us would be too much. I know because I am absolutely ashamed of the source of my secret pain -I've never found another human being that could put me at ease enough to allow me the comfort of purging it.. We are blind to ourselves. I have tried myself, many times to hold my soul up to the light and make a summation of all that I am, and found so many manifold and contradictory thoughts and feelings that I did not know how to count them up or capture them with the limited power of my consciousness. There is a tremendous loneliness in this. If we cannot know ourselves -then how can we ever know another? How can we even comprehend what form of pain or hope drives them if we cannot even take a decent inventory of our own most powerful motivations? All we have left is unconditional love, of ourselves, of others, even love of that pain and loneliness which tortures us, even our enemies, whether they be a painful memory or stupid, hateful souls who think somehow they can alleviate their own shame by punishing you for it.
I really don't know what else to say.

[TWiley]

317. Here Here ! Obama said he could work on more than one thing at a time

I am well aware of the flame machine around here ..... I have been set afire (although some of it was deserved) many more times here over the last two weeks than I have over the entire 6 - 7 or more years that I have been here.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

320. many right wigers come here to stir it up

you can see the right jumping on the bandwagon on wedge issues here. Some are genuinely and rightly giving their opinion some are not.

[My Good Babushka]

326. I've only been posting for a short while

here and there. But I find that some on DU are less that welcoming, and seem to be spoiling for a fight. I guess that is most online fora, though. What disappoints me is the lack of activity and organization. It would be more fun if DU actually did stuff, but perhaps it's too dispersed for activism.

[No Elephants]

330. First, maybe you'd enjoy the Breaking News forum more than this one. Second, start a thread about

anything you want.

[knixphan]

337. Electric Car K&R!

:thumbsup:

[sampsonblk]

339. You are right - K & R

"You used to be able to come here to DU and gets all kind of weird, random information nuggets about politics and world news, lots of cool little facts and opinions that gave you an expanded perspective on just about anything and everything that mattered. If any interesting articles had been published lately, you get to read a preview, get a link to the whole thing with a fun list of commentaries from like minded people."


I remember those days.