Despite the best attempts of SOME DUers to paint me and others as homophobes who don't care about...

[wndycty]

Civil rights for the LGBT community, I remain committed to my support of civil rights for the LGBT community, I remain committed in my support of gay marriage and I remain opposed to Rick Warren's participation the inaugural. I will publicly show my opposition to Warren on January 20, 2009 when I turn my back to the stage as he delivers the invocation.

HOWEVER to many on DU I am a homophobe. I, and others who support the LGBT community, have voiced our concern re: Warren and expressed our disappointment in Obama's choice, but that is not good enough, I'm being told it really isn't and I'm an out of touch homophobe who doesn't care about LGBT rights.

As an African America I am uncomfortable when folks try to equate the struggle for LGBT rights with the Black experience in the US. I posted a thread on the issue the other day and said I found the comparisons offensive. Rather than taking the time to understand or reflect on why I would say so many folks accused me of saying that civil rights for the LGBT community don't matter (NEVER SAID THAT). One of the funniest responses I saw was being told that African Americans are too sensitive, shouldn't I be able to say the same about folks who labeled me out of touch and homophobic in that thread? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. It should be noted I didn't question the motives of those who made the comparisons, I just said it was offensive.

Last night I posted a thread on the RNC and Barack the Magic Negro and was told by a responding poster "I notice that you care a lot more about this than you do gay rights." Really? Is this person fucking kidding me?

We have come to a very divisive moment her on DU. A moment where we are dangerously divided over an issue in which most of AGREE on. I'm confident that if there were a poll question as to whether or not Warren belongs at Obama's inaugural an overwhelming majority of DUers would respond no. However we are not there, we are looking for reasons to be divided.

Never before have I seen some DUers ACTIVELY lobby for division. A primary is one thing, we all supported different candidate and it made sense we would be have disagreements. But on the issue of Warren the majority of us agree, the disagreement is on the nuances.

Now I realized the minute I talked about "nuances" there are probably a ton of DUers who are typing response saying things like "marriage is not a nuance," "you can always nuance bigotry," etc. That is the climate here at DU right now.

This is not a straight v. gay problem, this not a DLC v. pragmatic moderate v. progressive argument, this is a discussion of how we communicate with one another.

On any issue that is important to us we have many allies who agree with us but don't march with us in lock step and may even have nuanced positions. DUers are now focusing on the lock step and nuances more than they are the bottom line on any issue and to me that is huge problem.

Just like with my use of the word "nuanced" above I now expect some DUers to post responses saying that I want people to sit down and shut up. Again this is not the case but hey believe what you want.

At DU we are spending so much time talking at one another as opposed to talking to one another.

[firedupdem]

1. K & R! Great Post! n/t

[treestar]

2. Can something be compared without having to be "equal?"

It is similar, and a struggle to obtain equal rights where there was none. Though each such struggle is different, that of woman, for example, is different from that of African-Americans. But there is one similiarity - trying to gain equality to white, straight men and do away with the system of privilege as a birthright.

Must be be offended by every comparison? Because it helps explain things. Comparing and contrasting does not mean making equal. No one ever gains anything by claiming to be the most oppressed ever. It's not a contest for who has had it worst, but an attempt to gain equality for all.

[JohnnieGordon]

3. Agreed, no analogy is ever flawlessly perfect anyway..nt

[Gman]

146. Very well said

and using this approach removes the hyperbole that diminishes an issue in the eyes of others.

[jhrobbins]

189. I guess I am always surprised when some in the black community

are 'offended' by the comparison between the struggle for equal rights of the black community and the GLBT community. I was calmed about this when I read that Coretta Scott King said they were the same. It is a shame when people want their struggle to be more poignant, more difficult than some other group as if it might take away from their suffering to conflate it with someone else's. How far back are we to go for comparison's? Jews were slaves in Egypt. Thousands of Jews were killed in Western Europe during the Inquisition along with many homosexuals. 6,000,000 Jews were killed last century in Western Europe along with over a hundred thousand gay men. Suffering is suffering, but I don't feel threatened when someone wants to speak about their struggle or at least their 'peoples' struggle. I am touched peripherally by Jewish persecution and by GLBT persecution, though I have never been a victim myself (certainly not physically and the other, I have no way of knowing).
I guess the point of this is I don't understand why it is necessary to have oneupmanship on our various struggles.
I went to a meeting at my college many years ago in response to an ad in the school newspaper. They had asked for any minority students to come and form clubs to be funded by the University. I went (mainly because my grandmother wanted me to) and when I walked in, I was scrutinized as if I were a leper. FInally someone said, 'just what are you doing here - this is for minorities'. I replied, I am Jewish (again, mainly for my grandmother because I am mostly a Jewish Presbyterian), to which I was told that this did not count because we didn't need any help - we had all the money anyway.' Nice.

[yardwork]

231. I agree. Very well stated.

[DevonRex]

4. Sad thing is that I was afraid to reply to you because I don't want

to be called those names again either. I realize it's only a few posters who have been doing that, but it's hurtful nonetheless.

K&R

[NYC_SKP]

114. I feel you.

But then I just say wtf, it is a very few posters and I try to just not encourage them and now I never reply to them unless attacked, and then only in the kindest terms I can muster because it makes them crazy.

I let the nasty threads sink and I rec the threads that call for unity, like this one.

[wndycty]

199. Thanks for the rec

:kick:

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Balderdash]

5. Civil rights are civil rights no matter whose they are.

I'm old enough to have contributed to your civil rights. Always have always will.
I'm not trying to weigh whose fight has been harder or longer, I'm tired of waiting
and being told to wait for my civil rights. Spotlighting a guy that would deny me
those rights is wrong I don't care what prism you look at that through it is wrong.
Obama, my President too, has said that he welcomes our input, just look at his cabinet,
not a yes man/woman in the bunch. I'm not throwing him away either, he is still our
best hope for change, he is still going to hear from me.

There is no good reason to belittle my struggle by claiming it's not as bad as someone
elses.

[No Elephants]

85. There is no legitimate reason why anyone should be willing to wait any longer for his or her civil

rights. NONE.

[Horselover Fat]

267. but it seems you are willing to wait until your rights are called by the name you prefer

Is the word 'Marriage' worth denying yourself equal rights?

[lukasahero]

292. Equal is either equal or it is not

Civil union <> marriage.

[Horselover Fat]

293. a rose by any other name is still a rose

if Civil Unions grant the same exact rights, what is the difference? (I know this is not the case everywhere, but it could be)

Prop 8 would not have passed if it had applied to Civil Unions.

If you take away the Church's argument regarding the term 'Marriage', you will gain equal rights nationally within a few years. The Majority support Civil Unions.
If you insist on calling it Marriage, then you are looking at a decades long struggle until the majority of this country is no longer Religious. Who knows how long that will be?

[ImOnlySleeping]

295. Favouritism

Not all religions define marriage in the manner that I believe you are talking about (1 man & 1 woman), so why should one religion's definition take precedence over another's?

[Horselover Fat]

299. can we not admit that 'Marriage' was initially a religious institution?

the stumbling block to equal rights for gays is that the Church is unwilling to give up the term 'Marriage'.

Ask yourself, why is it so important for that quasi-religious term to be used?
Do you even want to be associated with Religion?

Or is it that you want the Religious to accept you as an equal?
If that is the case, it's going to be nearly impossible.

However, if all you really want is equal rights under the law, then that can be achieved because the Majority in this Country support equal rights as long as the term 'Marriage' isn't used.

So the question is, are you after equal rights or acceptance from the Church?
One can happen now. One likely can't.

[ImOnlySleeping]

302. re

The issue is that marriage is now a legal term. creating an additional legal term that means the same as another established legal term is ridiculous and bound to result in laws getting passed that create different handling of rights for those that are married and those that are joined in union.

For myself on a personal level, I have no (and want no) associations with any religions. Also, living in Canada, it wouldn't really be an issue since marriage is available to all adults up here.

[Horselover Fat]

314. on a personal level, I agree with you. but then, I am not 'Religious'

I am speaking purely from the perspective of someone wanting to achieve equal rights for gays within my lifetime.

We know the Church's position on this and that it is not likely to change within the next decade, or even the next generation.

We know that the Majority of Americans are Religious.

We know that currently the Majority are opposed to Gay Marriage; however, they are not opposed to Civil Unions.

Knowing these things, how can we get equal rights for gays?

Make Civil Unions available for all with the full rights guaranteed by Marriage under Law. See what happens next.

*

If you were dying of thirst, and somebody offered you agua. Would you turn it away because they didn't call it 'Water'?

[donco6]

316. The religious already accept us.

Just not the homophobic ones. Plenty are willing to marry us. And I seriously doubt anyone wants anything to do with the whackos.

Why should the RW religious dominate the discussion? Do they have a lock on God?

[Horselover Fat]

318. but the 'whackos' are the majority of the religious

they are the ones who passed Prop 8.

ignoring them doesn't make them any less able to stand in your way.

but what if you could go around them rather than through them?

get the rights now.
get the word later, if it still holds the same attraction.

but don't deprive yourself of equality under the law in order to fight with the 'whackos'. there are too many of them right now.

[Ken Burch]

342. Why isn't it enough that no church will ever be forced to perform LGBT weddings?

The fact is, letting gay people marry will not make the churches give up anything.

[Ken Burch]

341. You're forgetting that no civil union law in this entire country

Has placed "civil unions" on an equal legal footing with heterosexual marriage.

They are always rights heterosexual married couples have in the legal system that LGBT couples do not have.

Are you saying that that's no big deal?

[Horselover Fat]

360. no, I'm saying it would be possible to get Civil Unions equalized and available

and it could happen soon, because the Majority support equal rights and Civil Unions.

Otherwise, you are at the mercy of the Religious, and most of them don't seem to be willing to give up the word 'marriage'.
I don't agree with them, but they do exist. A lot of them.

If you take the word 'Marriage' out of the equation, the religious lose their main argument.
It turns the issue into a pure Civil Rights case with no major opposition and majority support.

I know to us it starts off like that, but we cannot ignore the millions of Religious people who will stand in the way if 'Marriage' is the goal.

So, instead of going through them, go around them.
Get the Rights.
Later, get the word if it still holds the same appeal.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. wndycty, I agree with you

The Black experience is not the same as the gay/lesbian experience. For one very simple fact--it is usually quite obvious that you are black, where it is not always so clear that you are homosexual. I have known quite a few people, some for years, who "came out" and I really didn't have a clue. And I found that it didn't really matter to me one way or another, either. But the point is that skin color is out there for even the most dense and myopic person to see.

As you said, this does not mean that the struggle for equal rights is less important for homosexuals--rather it should be noted that the struggle is a different one.

[sui generis]

252. I agree on the face of it but

as you said the "idea" of being black really is no different than the "idea" of being gay to someone who is neither black nor gay nor standing in front of you.

In the end, the "idea" of being different is enough of an excuse for "mainstream" people to think they have a greater voice in your civil rights than you do.

I really believe that until we agree that the struggle for civil rights is the struggle for an idea, and not the experience of skin color or gayness or any other "idea" of difference, we will continue to struggle separately, and not equally.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Political Tiger]

8. Nicely said!

K&R

[Ian David]

9. Get over it. n/t

[patrice]

10. False dichotomies are suspect. It would be more useful to talk about the Differences:Similarities

between and amongst real world experiences.

[wndycty]

12. More importantly the intent of this thread is to say that we are on the same side. . .

. . .and many of the differences do not change that, however the division over those issues does post a threat.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patrice]

69. Sameness cannot function without Differentness and vice versa.

Same is that which is NOT Different. And Different is that which is NOT Same. (Thank you, Aristotle and, oh yes, The Tao). Problems arise from stasis: ALL this or NO that, and never the twain shall meet.

As Buckminster Fuller proposed: Each of us is a Verb. We have objectified others for so long and, guess what?, been objectified by them, that we've forgotten the truth.

Om namah, Shivayah!

[patrice]

105. What is the source of the divisions?

Individuals must parse reality for themselves, as long as they are up front about who/what they are doing, no matter what "side" they are on, and not doing one thing and calling it another. It is acceptable to call that out, no matter who is doing it, but it doesn't work to do so by doing the same thing that one is supposedly trying to mitigate. This usually takes the form of personal agendas, pain, and insult "in the name of the common good" but actually taking precedence over it.

It's all about what each of us truly wants the most and what each person's skills are in implementing that.

[goclark]

363. Thanks for your post wndycity, it helped me to think

some more about this very important issue.

I am African American as well.

I have always been a solid supporter of Gay Rights and had a dear family member that happened to be Gay.

So, for me to post at DU and have people slam my thoughts aside because of their anger ~ it hurts me deeply.

I vowed that I would not weigh in on the issue here again but your post gave me strength.

I would presume that at least 99 1/2 percent of DU is supportive of Justice for the Gay Community, we want JUSTICE for ALL.

I don't understand why I should be the Enemy, but that is how I feel.

DU should be a place where we come to find out how to "win friends and influence people" that may not feel as passionate about progressive issues as we do.

Therefore, why are some of us being abused with insults?

I have asked several times for members to give DU positive ways to address the issue and as of yet, not one positive strategy has been given to me.

DU is for DOERS and we have always worked together for common causes. For this issue, we are divided because some of us have been flamed for saying anything.

Again,I am asking,what positive steps can we all agree on?


Rodney King said it best, " Can't We All Get Along?"

Thanks again for your voice of reason.

[question everything]

11. Sadly, DU is a reflection of the country as a whole

Yes, we came together, for one bright shining moment when we elected Obama. But, like any bright shining moment, it quickly faded. Now we are back to our tribalism. I, me, my family and friends trump any thought of the common good.

We indulge in divisiveness because it gets our adrenaline flowing like nothing else. Divisiveness provides us with power, recognition, money, even.

The anonymity of the Internet allows many to be rude and profane and hostile as opposed to - one hopes - behaving so in public.

Divisiveness is power and we have seen this since the beginning days of the Republic, long before Nixon's "law and order," Lee Atwatar and Karl Rove.

For those of us who really care, the best approach would be to just ignore such threads and posts. Yes, it is hard when you personally get attacked, but my suggestion would be to, first, attempt to correct facts and interpretations and then just ignore these posters whose vocabulary is limited to the F**** You opinions.

It is possible that many of the ones who are still around, after the elections, are the ones who do seek fight. It is possible that many who were here for the purpose of electing a Democrat to the White House moved on to other things, perhaps even are desperately looking for a new job, or wondering from where they will pay for their next meal, shelter, and medicine.

I don't believe in "New Year Resolution" but if I could recommend one it would be to let the ones seeking to fight - about any issue - to wallow in their own bile and let the rest of us concentrate on what really matters to our country. And right now it is the threat of a 10% unemployment, the threat of many more declaring bankruptcy because their 20% co-pay for cancer treatment amounted to $20K which they did not have (from yesterday's NBC News), the threat of many of us running out of money to pay for food and shelter and medicine and with government funds running dry unable to help us.

Yes, right now, these are more important than gay rights, abortion rights, even animal rights.

(I cannot believe that I actually typed this last sentence, but I am scared.)

[wndycty]

14. DUCK!

:kick:

[hfojvt]

40. by its nature, a discussion board is about fighting

a discussion or argument between differing ideas.

The difference is between those who see it as a sparring match and those who prefer a fight to the death. The other issue is people who have an actual real-world stake in an issue. Of course they are gonna take it more seriously. It's not just an argument, it has real-world impact and sometimes the debate here becomes a place to vent real-world frustrations against convenient targets.

Also, divisiveness does not provide most people with money or power. That's only true of divisive leaders. Divisiveness is part of group dynamics for most groups. The group stays together, stays more cohesive by hating non-group members, particularly the enemy groups. "Don't be like FReepers."

[question everything]

156. And by real world stake you mean?

Let's face it. Having Warren providing the invocation - and personally I dislike all invocation as a matter of principle - will not harm our gay and lesbian friends. They will not be fired from their jobs, they will not lose access to credit, or to own their own business and no one will revoke the law of hate crime.

Some have reminded us of Pastor Martin Niemöller's famous "first they came for the Jews and I did not speak up" and, frankly, I find this comparison offensive to all the Jews, and the Communists and Jehovah Witnesses and, yes, the homosexuals who were killed in the Nazi concentration camps. This is only a one minute invocation.

As for money and power - look at moveon.com and dailykos. Their messages were about divisiveness which brought them many visitors and ad revenue. Look at Fox, its whole existence is about divisiveness and it has the highest number of cable viewers which, again, is translated to ad revenue.

And, yes, a "common enemy" provides more cohesiveness than a common goal. Sad.

[hfojvt]

274. there's still a real world stake there

It does not actually change policy, but it sends a message in the eyes of many. A message from Obama that says "fundamentalist Christians are more important to me than GLBT are." That's what his cabinet picks have been saying too - "Wall Street and the corporate world are more important to me than the working class", "the MIC is more important to me than the anti-war left (and majority)"

I also disagree that Moveon and DKos are about divisiveness, although they may have gotten carried away as much as any DUer. But we start with passionate issue advocacy. I was fiercely against the Bush tax cuts, for example. I also wanted to spread the word that Bush was lying about his tax cuts as he went around saying the statement that Franken, and others, dissected "By far the vast majority of my tax cuts goto those at the bottom." So yeah, then after he has blatantly lied to me and to the rest of the American people and passed a policy which will harm this nation, I tend to hate the lying a$$hole SOB.

It's not divisiveness to want to spread information about harmful Republican policies and about Republican dishonesty in selling those policies to a misinformed public. It's an attempt to hold them accountable because the M$M certainly has not been doing it.

[Vanje]

282. PickingWarren for the invocation scored a big hit with Bill Kristol

Billy sez:
"And having Warren there will, in fact, be a welcome reminder of the strides the evangelical movement and religious conservatives (broadly speaking) have made in recent decades."


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/opinion/29kristol.html

[GinaMaria]

262. Some DUers are nursing some fresh wounds

Prop 8 was a stab in the back, the other anti LGBT props on election day were kicks in the gut and Warren is a slap in the face. I can't imagine I would respond rationaly after taking such hits. It is understandable that people are not at their best or most reasonable. In less than 2 months there have been some big injuries inflicted. Maybe extending more benefit of the doubt than we usually would will foster some much needed healing. This is really about pain. We are on the same team. Everyone's civil/human birth-given rights are important and worth fighting for.

Peace all

Hey WNDYCTY haven't seen you in a while. Glad to run into you on a thread. Hope all is going well and 2009 brings everything you are hoping for.

[Luminous Animal]

41. During the 60s

people fought for free speech rights, women's rights, civil rights, the end to the war, and economic justice.


While walking and chewing gum.

[ooglymoogly]

115. Ahhhh yes. these are the profundities that came from the mouths of the founding fathers...

NOT....We rightfully came together to elect a democrat and shove * into the trash heap of history and virtually all were on board. We won that battle handily; Now we are fighting for the soul of the democratic party; DLC (dino's) v. the constitution and democracy. The shinning moment faded because that battle is over; You cannot blame those of us who see O turning into a DLC'er in front of our eyes speaking out.

[question everything]

157. That many refused to see Obama as a centrist during the campaign is their problem

I supported Hillary to the end and then, of course, contributed to and voted for Obama.

And I think that he is doing great so far. Yes, these days we do need "speeches" to assure all Americans, not just the ones who worked hard for him, that he will set things right.

Yet, it was clear to me that so many people projected their dreams and hopes on him, that, once elected, many would be disappointed. No one can be all things to all people.

We will need a bi partisan support to enact New Deal II and being a centrist will be the only way to go.

[ooglymoogly]

184. Yeah he didn't try to make us believe he was anything but a centrist

Yeah that's the ticket.

[HamdenRice]

13. Well said! KRNT!

[Spectral Music]

15. You mean you're not a shit stirrer?

Then you can't belong in my club. :)

[hfojvt]

16. I think it is a bit of a pragmatic vs. firebrand issue

A pragmatic person wants to win, a firebrand wants to breathe fire against his/her enemies, and everybody who is not totally on their side, not totally in agreement with them, is an enemy, or an enemy symp, or an enemy enabler, or a traitor. Other points of view that deviate from the perfect one, are not just wrong, they are evil - they are bigoted, they are wilfully ignorant, they are batsh*t insane.

[wndycty]

17. Very interesting a accurate take

:kick:

[ooglymoogly]

94. You must be talking about the founding fathers here

They understood the difference between right and wrong without flinching and firebrands they were. The firebrand they produced is the constitution and they did not roll over for anyone; Not even the greatest force on earth at the time. The miff many of us have is that many do not get that this is an issue of right and wrong and that firebrand constitution.

[Vanje]

165. A pragmatist wants to win, as you say....

But he needs a firebrand to remind him what the win is for.
A Firebrand keeps his/her brother pragmatist focused on a path that makes the win worth something.

Any successful movement needs both pragmatists and firebrands.

[Daemonaquila]

244. Pragmatists...

Sounds a lot like congress the last several years. No impeachment. No end to the war. No pushback on the Bush bailout.

Not to mention the congressional firebrands (and I use that term loosely) like Kucinich and Conyers being called kooks by their own party.

Thanks, I'll take a firebrand any day until the pragmatists can show they're capable of accomplishing much more than capitulation.

[hfojvt]

276. it was the firebrands who gave us President Bush

by voting for Nader. It's not about wanting to get rid of firebrands, but to get them to settle down enough to stop attacking their allies who are not fiery enough.

[mopinko]

18. we have to resist the circular firing squad. we have to figure this out.

we have to learn to cope with these wedge issues. i can see how the right was split by abortion after watching these threads here. it seems like a perfect mirror image to me.

so, what to do? what obama has the ability to do- find the good in every one, and relate to them at that point, instead of seeing their worst side and relating there, is a hard, hard, hard thing to do. it goes against everything we warrior naked apes are programmed to do.
but we must find a way. there is just no room left on this fragile planet for division and hate.

i hope our leader can help us. i hope he is able to spread it around. like he said when he was asked about how he could hope in today's world- there is no choice.
there is no choice but to lay down our weapons, to set down our fears, to move forward in love and peace. if we cannot have a civil discussion among friends, how can we find peace for the world?
outrage has it's place, but it also has a price. i just don't think we can afford it any more.

every step is peace.

[patrice]

59. It all depends upon what each individual truly desires the most.

People are capable of being quite dishonest with themselves. Each needs to look at his/her most common behaviors and ask him/her-self what purpose do these behavior serve most efficiently/best. Whatever the answer is to that question is is what s/he desires the most, no matter how much lipstick they put on it.

[Th1onein]

19. I'm going to KICK & RECOMMEND this post.

And watch what happens.

[Luminous Animal]

20. Could you please link to your original post?

Without asking you to rehash why you find comparisons of one civil rights struggle to another "offensive", I'd like to read from your original post and perhaps get back to you.

[wndycty]

24. Here you go. You may disagree with me, but does that make me a homophobe?

Also, let's keep this thread about the OP, if you have a comment about the other thread make it over there please.

[Luminous Animal]

39. No one on that thread called you a homophobe...

I make this comment here because you leveled that false accusation in your OP.

[bettyellen]

56. bullshit flamebait makes it to the greatest!

[wndycty]

176. Yup its on the greatest and I'm very proud of that . . .

. . .seriously, this is a discussion that needs to be had.

[bettyellen]

193. that you lied your way there by pretending someone called you a name?

[DevonRex]

202. Calling someone a liar is AGAINST DU RULES. And unless

all the replies are there, EXACTLY as they were when they were written, then you have NO IDEA whether someone called Wndy a homophobe or not in that thread. And the mods have been deleting posts that call DUers homophobes. So even if you search, you won't come up with a post that calls Wndy that.

Enough.

[wndycty]

212. Thanks Jennifer. . .

:kick:

[wndycty]

213. I'm proud that 88 people have recommended a thread that takes a stand against. . .

. . .the way some folks are seeking to divide the DU.

[Luminous Animal]

222. You are contributing to the division of DU...

I notice that you've not responded to my posts where MLK invokes historical metaphors of the civil rights movement to the labor movement and to the struggle of the Jews for a homeland.

If I came on this board as a long time labor advocate and declared that I was offended that MLK invoked similarities between my movement and his, I'd be smacked down so fast and people would be celebrating my tombstone.

So what is it Wndy? It's okay for AAs to historically connect to other social justice movements but not LGBTs? Why are they set adrift without historical precedent to refer to to put their fight for civil rights in context?

[wndycty]

249. Am I supposed to agree with everything MLK ever said? Am I supposed to respond to every DUer

who demands a response? Also, do I need to agree with MLK on the issue of metaphors to be considered on the right side of this issue?

Tell me.

[Luminous Animal]

268. No, I do not expect you to agree with everything MLK said.

Nor did I demand a response and actually, I never expected one. I was wondering about your thoughts on MLK's acknowledgment of the historical connections between people's movements. Personally, I think he was wise to give homage to the tactics of those who struggled before and succeeded. In the process, he forged coalitions that were critical to his success. No doubt "some people" were annoyed that MLK would find similarities between his fight and theirs. During MLK's lifetime, the Zion movement and the labor movement existed in living memory. For queers, the AA civil rights movement exists in living memory, to acknowledge commonalities of oppression is not the same as claiming that they are equivalent.

[Cherchez la Femme]

361. Nothing new on DU!

unfortunately

[jumptheshadow]

21. Actually several posters did ask you why you feel the comparisions are offensive

And they asked you politely.

And you never answered the question.

[wndycty]

26. I did answer the question, they just didn't like the answer

You are more than welcome to discuss my answers or what you feel to be a lack of an answer over at the thread. I respectfully request you not to hijack this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8027056

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wndycty]

23. Where did I say more rights are more important. . .

. . .please do tell. Please tell me where I said that my rights were more important.

Additionally, am I religious? Really? Where the hell do I go to church? When is the last time I have been?

[jumptheshadow]

25. Please explain why you are offended

I am happy to be the fourth person to ask you.

[wndycty]

27. That thread over there speaks for me. . .please don't hijack this thread. . .

. . .if you don't like my answer I can accept that but does that make me a homophobe?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8027056

[noamnety]

108. Did anyone call you a homophobe?

I've never seen anyone so determined to be called a bigot in all my life. What are you getting out of this thread?

[The Doctor.]

207. Actually, here is exactly where;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4721412#4721953

And for the crime of saying this;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4721412&mesg_id=4721930

OMG! How horrible of me!


That's the point... there are a handful of rage junkies looking for any excuse to flail away at anyone within post-reach.

[noamnety]

209. actually I was asking if anyone had called wndycty a homophobe,

They seem pretty convinced they are a victim of something, but for the life of me I can't figure out what.

[Laughing Mirror]

28. Communication, as you point out, is key

Listening, attentively, giving space is the only way for communication to work. No matter what words come out of somebody's mouth.

Obviously, civil rights is as passionate a subject for gays as it is for blacks, both having been denied those fundamental rights for so long.

As a gay person, I thank you for your support of our civil rights too.

[cbc5g]

29. I'm not a homophobe because I believe there are more important issues right now

There are hundreds of thousands of people and mostly minorities in jail right now because of insane drug laws who will never have a chance to even LOVE anyone for a long long time. Let me know when people are arrested and put in jail for gay sex.

[Balderdash]

44. It's this crap right here that is

divisive. It's not about GAY SEX. The ignorance is astounding! But please go on and on about the gays are the ones causing the problems.

[patrice]

63. Can we agree that Prop H8 would not have happened if LGBTQs didn't have sex?

For US, it is not about Gay Sex. It's about what it means to be American and how who/what "we" are is manifested in our Civil Rights and our Freedom.

For MANY others, it is about one thing and one thing only, not matter how they dress it up. And everything else is triggered by that one fact, i.e. what consenting adults are doing with their own bodies in the privacy of their own lives.

[Zuiderelle]

95. You're a homophobe if you say "Let me know when people are arrested and put in jail for gay sex."

:eyes:

[boppers]

171. People have been arrested and put into jail for gay sex *recently*.

Went all the way to the Supreme Court, it wasn't until 2003 that the laws were struck down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas

[Rockholm]

258. Lucky for us the Supreme Court overturned that law.

But I am pretty sure that you can still be arrested for being gay.

[ImOnlySleeping]

300. What does one have to do with the other?

The drug laws/attitudes are stupid.
anti-gay laws/attitudes are stupid.
It takes approximately 0 seconds more to be take progressive stances on both issues.

And as for the put in jail part, a lot worse can happen to someone.

[Ioo]

322. We can do more than one thing at a time! - Nominate for Dumbest Post of the Month

Yah because not being able to smoke your post is SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than human rights...

[hlthe2b]

30. Anger & Frustration is leading to some indiscriminate lashing out

I don't know--from the moderator or administrative point of view--what a solution might be, but I think there needs to be more peer policing... When people start throwing accusations so indiscriminately as I have seen the past week (on the part of many from all sides of the debate)it serves no purpose, but does incredible harm, IMO. I'm glad to see Wndycty that you are trying to be understanding of what is occurring and continue to try to bring polite discourse to the subject. Until more of our peers step in to tamp down the emotional reflexive posting, I doubt we will get to he point where we can discuss more broadly and be receptive to others very relevant perceptions and experiences.

Somehow, I'm guessing that DU will be a difficult environment through the inauguration, at least. How sad that we can't come together and celebrate the efforts we have brought to politics the past 8 years, knowing that we have work to do to keep the new administration "honest to their core beliefs and promises" but at least celebrating the chance for substantive change... As one who has been here since inauguration of Bush* in January 2001, I have lived for this day. I hope for one day, that all of our hopes will prevail and DU will be a forum of celebration, rather than a forum of infighting-if only for a moment.

[wndycty]

32. Hey its happening in this thread, see post #25

:kick:

[Vanje]

168. Post # 25

The poster asks a question. I dont see any lashing out.
Did you mistakenly cite the wrong post?

[butterfly77]

31. Recommended...

[Festivito]

33. Ignore more and thusly less is ignored.

Nicely put post, but if you need to get past the post and ghost distraction operatives, put them on ignore.

After all, what better way do Republican criminals like Rove, Rumsfeld, et. al., and their associated think thanks have to stop good threads on Siegleman, pardons, et. al., THAN TO ADD distractions. DUers post links, some verify links, result is dangerous to a GOP and its crimes.

Many left DU. They've gone to places their voice is less heard and less dangerous to the GOP and does less good.

Don't let it get to you.

[patrice]

71. !

:hi: Thanks for this! :hi:

[Raster]

34. Mrs. King speaks for me.

Coretta Scott King, speaking four days before the 30th anniversary of her husband's assassination, said Tuesday the civil rights leader's memory demanded a strong stand for gay and lesbian rights. "I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice," she said. "But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'" "I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people," she said.

"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."

"We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny...I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be," she said, quoting her husband. "I've always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy."

"Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement," she said. "Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions."

But perhaps her most eloquent statement on the subject came in 1994, again invoking the words of her late husband in support of equal rights for all:

For too long, our nation has tolerated the insidious form of discrimination against this group of Americans, who have worked as hard as any other group, paid their taxes like everyone else, and yet have been denied equal protection under the law...I believe that freedom and justice cannot be parceled out in pieces to suit political convenience. My husband, Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." On another occasion he said, "I have worked too long and hard against segregated public accommodations to end up segregating my moral concern. Justice is indivisible." Like Martin, I don't believe you can stand for freedom for one group of people and deny it to others.

[wndycty]

35. OK Mrs. King speaks for you but what does that have to do with the OP. . .

. . .am I or am I not a homophobe. Do DUers who have nuance positions on the issue of LGBT civil rights but are supportive of them actually care about LGBT rights?

[Raster]

37. I don't know if you are a homophobe. That's not my call, that's your call.

There's no black civil rights, nor women's civil rights nor GLBT civil rights. There is civil rights for one and all. No one is truly free unless we are ALL truly free.

[patrice]

83. This is what we should stand on, because it is the most persuasive logic.

It will make sense to the MOST People.

You cannot claim Rights that you do not accord to Others, with the caveat of avoiding Harm to Others, i.e. intefering with their Freedom and Rights, any "right" that you claim is non-functional - it's not a RIGHT at all - if it does not apply to ALL. If Gays don't have the Right to get Married, then no one has the Right to get married.

And if the Freedom to Marry is not a Right and is, rather, a Privilege, MAKE THEM SAY SO and MAKE them deliver the grounds for that Privilege, SO WE CAN TALK ABOUT PRIVILEGE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Who has it, who doesn't and Why?

[IndianaJones]

36. paternal straight man whiner post #357. nt.

[hlthe2b]

43. ?????

I must not be in on the big secret, whatever this post refers to...:shrug:

[Luminous Animal]

38. I read your other OP and no one called you a homophobe...

you've set up a straw man argument.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. can you link to the post that lead you to be called a homophobe?

[Luminous Animal]

45. He can't because nobody did.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

46. i know,

:hi:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yes We Did]

50. More like he doesn't want to break the rules.

Nice try though.

[Balderdash]

51. You've no clue, as usual. nt

[Yes We Did]

271. Yep... snipe snipe snipe...

despite the fact that i'm correct. you cannot link to a thread to call someone out.

[Luminous Animal]

52. I read the thread he linked to...

and no one called him a homophobe.

Here, check for yourself.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8027056

[hfojvt]

88. it's possible that post #92 which was deleted

called HamdenRice a homophobe. And also #246 was taken by the OP to imply that the black community is homophobic, and I can see why it was so taken (but I also think it was mostly accurate :shrug:) Although the OP specifically referenced that thread, it's possible that much of the sentiment is left over from the Prop 8 vs. blacks time on DU.

[Luminous Animal]

93. It's possible that monkeys will fly out of my butt...

But even if someone DID accuse HamdenRice of being a homophobe, that is a far cry from his assertion in the title; i.e., "the best attempts of SOME DUers to paint me and others as homophobes". Because, in reality, if true that would be a pretty fucking weak attempt.

[hfojvt]

110. it would be part of the "and others"

and a moderator did say that somebody was called a name in the deleted post, which was a reply to HamdenRice.

[Luminous Animal]

118. Use some logic here...

The OP accuses LGBT DUers of using their best efforts to smear him and other DUers with accusations homophobia and supplies a link that purports to support this accusation and the only example of this best effort that you can come up with is a deleted post.

The OP is promoting a lie.

[hfojvt]

127. the OP never claimed that the one thread was the best attempt

anyway I am just providing a counter-example to the assertion that "it NEVER happened" not to the assertion that "it's wildly exaggerated".

[mkultra]

126. i was in that thread and many where removed.

you dont really expect the mods to leave that crap lying around do you?

[Luminous Animal]

130. There were two posts deleted out of over 250.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8027056#8027427

[mkultra]

135. you can equivicate all you want but the fact remains

anyone who thinks the warren invocation is a good idea has been called a homophobe for it.

[Luminous Animal]

136. I am not equivocating...

and I am not denying that some folks have been called a homophobe. What I take issue with is the assertion made by the OP which is patently false.

I myself to assert that those who support Warren, are supporting a self-admitted homophobe.

[mkultra]

142. well, i think thats a pretty lazy point of view

I think everyone here knows that warren is a homophobe. The fight is about Obama and whether he should have invited warren to the party.

The point the OP makes is that those who do not show outrage are being branded as homophobes. I have seen him called such in both a direct and indirect manner.

The funny part of your attack dog act is that instead of addressing this issue, you try to pin the OP down about wether HE has had the word homophobe used against him.

wether you get the proof you want or get tired of calling him a liar, you will not change the main point which is that anyone not showing complete outrage is being branded a homophobe.

That is his point and that is the truth.

[Luminous Animal]

144. Except DU rules prohibits...

backing that up with any proof, so you and the OP get to make any accusation you want. I can refute your unsubstantiated accusation. When I asked Wndy for a link to substantiate his accusation, the one he gave me expressly proved his accusation was bogus. FYI, nobody is asking for outrage, we are asking for support. Against a homophobe. Who actively works with the full force of his pulpit and his congregation to deny civil rights to a subset of the population.

By the way, you may think it is a lazy point of view but I can guarantee that if GWB had invited David Duke to stand and speechify on his podium, any DUer who would dare support it would be kicked off this board in a second.

[wndycty]

198. Oh jeeze

The insuations are all over the place and yes I have been told I don't care about civil rights for the LGBT community so you nitpick all you want, it does not change what is going on on DU.

[Luminous Animal]

200. Actually, not quite...

"I notice that you care a lot more about this than you do gay rights." Is not the same as saying that you "don't care about civil rights for the LGBT community"

You can make claims about insinuations but, unfortunately, your linked "proof" shows no such thing.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

64. linking to your own thread is not rule breaking. nt

[Yes We Did]

272. but linking to a specific post IN your thread is. n/t

[noamnety]

76. It's pretty easy to find

just google the user name and homophobe, or homophobic, or bigot.

Oh wait ... that turns up no accusations against him at all. That's odd.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

77. LOL.

:loveya:

[Luminous Animal]

90. It's a smearing of the LGBT DU community

plain and simple.

[hfojvt]

98. that's not easy to find at all

I got 126 results for "wndycty and bigot", although somewhat distressingly I got 447 results for "hfojvt and bigot".

[noamnety]

107. The two words appear in threads together,

but not as an accusation against the OP.

like I said, there's nothing that turns up accusations against him at all.


(not sure about your situation, haven't looked through them, just talking about those 126 results - easier to narrow them down to this discussion, btw, if you do an advanced search on hits for the last month only.)

[hfojvt]

123. either way that's a lot of threads to check to prove that there are none

and that would not include deleted posts. Advanced search would perhaps work better, but there would be many forums to search. It's just hard for a search to prove a "not", but the OP specifically referenced his previous thread and that does not seem to be accurate except for post #246. Otherwise there's no way to account for post which may apply to the OP that say "people like this are bigots ..."

[noamnety]

128. When I searched their name with those qualifiers for the last month

it was less than a dozen threads - pretty easy to check, just open the threads and search for the words to find their context.

Now for the record, I did call Obama a bigot and said I would retract that assessment when he retracts his opposition to equal rights. Some of his comments were hypocritical shit when it comes to the concept of separate but equal, but the folks here probably already know that.

[baldguy]

47. Methinks the OP doth protest too much.

[yourguide]

53. Bullshit.

[Luminous Animal]

60. Well, no one called him a homophobe...

Here is the referenced OP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8027056

You tell me why he felt the need to accuse folks of doing something they never did?

[yourguide]

131. I have refrained from chiming in on this matter

but I am ashamed of DUers on both sides. And yes, wndy has taken more than his/her fair share of bullshit from some posters, including those suggesting the OP is a homophobe whether implicit in their words or not.

[wndycty]

139. thanks for your comments

[DevonRex]

167. And there's a nasty insinuation right there. Shameful. nt

[donco6]

317. He certainly protests OFTEN, at any rate. n/t

[CakeGrrl]

49. k/r

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Luminous Animal]

57. NOBODY called Wndycty a homophobe!

Check for yourself!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8027056

[noamnety]

58. Thank you.

I suspect this is a case of the OP trying to paint themselves as af victim of gay activist meanies, and I can't figure out why.

Note to OP: You are not the victim here.

[Spectral Music]

61. Well, then, the OP should self delete

Waiting....

[DevonRex]

169. You can't possibly know that unless every reply is still there EXACTLY as written

originally, with no later edits. Enough.

[patrice]

91. "Crossovers" I saw this from the start. The LGBTQ Community has a foot in BOTH

parties. This makes them kind of powerful. That power could result in success on this issue. That's why we're seeing so many Manager$$, Gate-keeper$$, and other assorted A$$holes (as someone put it the other day), on this issue. That's why I, early on, stated my interest in seeing what other issues LGBTQ activists are working for. The necessity of knowing this brings it all down to the concrete local environment. This is also what is necessary in order to counter the political activities of the churches.

[Metric System]

104. "everyone that comes on here arguing for gay marriage isn't a democrat. there are log cabin repubs

that would like to have gay marriage and would love to splinter our party."

WTF?!?

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[matcom]

62. your caps key is broken

[firedupdem]

65. LOL!

You've managed to make me have an episode of hysterical laughter 2 days in a row!

[Balderdash]

70. There you are again with nothing to add but inane

fluffery.

[matcom]

72. just providing a public service

in case she wasn't aware of her keyboard issues.

i'm a giver.

[Luminous Animal]

79. Indeed,

and I would be providing a public service if I started a thread calling you a puppy-fucker. It would be a total fabrication but who cares? It looks like making shit up and smearing people on DU is a-okay now!

[matcom]

82. are you SURE it would be a total fabrication?

for I give you...



if THAT doesn't turn you on I don't think there is any hope.

[Teaser]

78. inane fluffery is the only truth

and truth is naught but inane fluffery.

[tandot]

66. Thanks for posting, wndycty!

Reading many of the Warren threads, I've noticed only a few people who are consistently and "actively lobby for division"

For some it is a "black" and "white" issue with no room for shades of gray or nuances. After the devastating passing of Prop 8 and other hateful propositions, I can't blame them for being consumed by anger. I hope that they soon will recognize that a majority of DUers fully support their rights and that we are on the same side of the issue.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tandot]

74. I've read plenty of Warren threads besides that one calling

DUers bigots or homophobes or their posts as bigoted and homophobic. Some of those insults might have been deserved while others clearly were not.

The OP has an opinion that I agree with and I don't care if you like it or not. The last time I've checked, discussion is not against DU rules.

It is odd that there is constant complaining about what some DUers consider "STFU threads" only to have those complainers ask anyone who doesn't agree 100% on the issue to STFU.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tandot]

102. If you would have actually read my reply to you,

you would have noticed that I said that I've read plenty of Warren threads in which DUers were called bigots or homophobes or their opinion was labeled as such. I even remember a post labeling Obama as homophobe.

I didn't talk about that particular thread you are linking to.

[mkultra]

129. i dont need his evidence, i have seen it myself.

if you need evidence, perhaps you should dig it up. Im sure you will simply now attack me so when i dont reply to you perhaps you can guess why.

[Balderdash]

87. I didn't ask anyone to STFU, you're reading something

between the lines that isn't there. I haven't called a single person a homophobe or a bigot
on DU. I think Rick Warren is a homophobe and bigot and I think that Obama made a mistake
in picking him to give the invocation, period.

[tandot]

99. I didn't reply to you. I was replying to post #81.

And I actually agree with your last sentence 100%.

[Balderdash]

103. Sorry, these new fangled threaded posts...

:fistbump:

[Luminous Animal]

109. The title of this OP is a baseless accusation.

There is no evidence that some queers on this board used their best efforts to paint Wndycty or any other DUer as a homophobe. Random accusations of such does not qualify as a best effort.

What I have seen and it is clearly obvious, that the LGBT community is putting forth their best efforts to expose Warren's homophobia.

And where oh where has anyone suggested that you STFU? And, perhaps you could enlighten me on how best to have a discussion without responding to you.

[tandot]

112. I wish you the best. I have better things to do then spending my whole day on DU

If you can't see that there is some hateful sh*t directed not only at GLBTers but also some DUers who in essence agree with them but differ in strategy, I can't help you.

Just keep the blinders on.

[wndycty]

158. LOL well this post has 67 rec's as of now

So evidently a ton of folks agree with me.

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wndycty]

173. So anyone who recommends this thread is stupid?

:kick:

[Bobbie Jo]

178. How about you just account for your own.

I'll assume your post is an attempt to that end.

[Luminous Animal]

192. Since my posts are being systematically deleted...

I'll answer you in another way. You've accused SOME DUers of making their best effort to paint you as a homophobe but yet you've provided zero evidence to support that claim.

[goclark]

366. Please let me know when that day comes

I can't take the negatives any longer.

[ooglymoogly]

75. Duuuu. Hello, this is a discussion board. Most of us can dish it out ...

as well as handle the anger and opinions of others. You seem to be non nonplussed that in the end the glbt will not roll over on this. The bone I have to pick with your post is your not recognizing any similarities with the black struggle for equality....mainly that blacks were denied civil rights, were hanged murdered, beaten and plotted against by their own countrymen and on a very similar note gays are being denied their civil rights, murdered, beaten and plotted against by their own countrymen, with little ripple in the overall; Nor can we forget the images of black men hanging from trees with a bunch of rednecks gloating around them, or the morgue photos of gay folk bruised and beaten while a hostile redneck press were and are peepless; Nor the images of a young Mat Shepherd laying across a barbed wire fence on a lonely road in the wilderness brutally beaten to death. It is by these that your post is a support "but" post.

[noamnety]

80. Even Obama has said there are parallels between the two.

I don't see them getting all insulted about that.

(but hey, that's different because of Obamal Infallibility.)

[patrice]

97. LOL!

May I use that? Obamal Infallibility!! Resonates with this old fallen Catholic!

:rofl:

[No Elephants]

81. If you are pro-gay marriage and think the Warren choice was a bad idea, specifically why

are you being called a homophobe? You did not really explain that. I am pro-gay marriage and condemn the choice of Warren to give the invocation and no one here has called me a homophobe. (I have been accused of disloyalty to Obama, but not homophobia.) So, I am puzzled by your description of your experience here, to say the least.

I do, however, disagree that one struggle for civil rights cannot be compared with another. They all share some common traits. By the same token, none of them are identical to any of the others. So, comparing similarities is legitimate, as long as one does not claim exact similarity in all respects.

Comparing the pain of African Americans to the pain of members of the GLBT community or the pain of women is, in my view, pointless and divisive, though. Each has suffered in different ways for centuries.

[Luminous Animal]

120. NOBODY called Wndycty a homophobe...

the title of his post is a fabrication.

[Teaser]

84. Exult in the chaos

It's like one of those storms that blow up out out of the quiet and trash the neighborhood.

It's destructive, but there is something truly glorious in watching a cat flying unaided past your second floor window.

[Starry Messenger]

89. It's a message board.

I get called all kinds of stuff, but never feel the need to start OPs about it. Maybe there is something wrong with me.

[IndianaGreen]

92. How do you feel about Dems putting repeal of DADT off the table?

We have gone beyond marriage rights now, haven't we? We are talking about a campaign promise to repeal DADT.

[EFerrari]

96. If you really are thinking about communication strategies

you must realize that this OP will not improve the situation. :shrug:

[patrice]

101. Do we agree that Improvement is the responsibility of each Person?

It'd be nice if each OP were there, but since they often aren't, (without hi-jacking the thread) shouldn't each of us make things work better? That's called Responsibility and it's a very persuasive trait, supposedly, to folk who call themselves Republicans.

[EFerrari]

106. Sure. n/t

[Zuiderelle]

100. Yes, Many DUers are focusing on lockstepping with Obama. It's WRONG. There are nuances.

And the nuance here is that one of THE MOST homophobic and dangerous religious figures in this country has been invited to do the invocation at Obama's inauguration after having vocally supported Proposition 8. We have a responsibility to object to this mistake Obama made, and we have a responsibility to not be shouted down.

It doesn't matter how many threads people post saying that they are sick of all the threads, there will be more. As long as you tell me to shut up, I'll keep telling you to shut up.

I'm also really curious why you are so uncomfortable with anyone trying to compare our fight for civil equality to the African American fight for civil equality. How is it fundamentally different? Why are you uncomfortable with it? I'm uncomfortable with you being uncomfortable with it.

Edit to add... You put this in your JOURNAL? You're that proud of this shit?

[Skittles]

162. I AGREE WITH YOU PELOSIFAN

anyone who cannot see that saying gay folk should settle for "civil unions" is the same as telling them they can get on the bus but they need to stay in the back really does not get it....not that I'm saying the OP thinks this but the comparison is dead on

[matcom]

164. Your caps key is broken too

[Skittles]

172. NO IT ISN'T

I WILL KICK YOUR ASS :hi:

[matcom]

174. looks like it to me

:hi:

on edit: :P

[patrice]

111. P.S. No real Democrat is trying to take Black Americans' struggle for Civil Rights away from them

and use it for their own selfish goals. Others might be doing this, but I can assure you that if they are, they are DINOs.

Bye now, All :hi: Gotta go stand on our street corner.

[Moloch]

113. Most gay people are extremely concerned..

about the incoming administrations seeming indifference to gay rights. The Warren invitation was an extreme sleight to a group who overwhelmingly voted for Obama and many of us (myself included) tirelessly canvassed and worked our asses off the get Obama elected. Did conservative Christians do that? Of course not. This feels like a slap in the face.. take that plus the passage of Prop 8 and you have a very angry community.

That, however, does not excuse the childish behavior of the malcontents who seem to take every opportunity to disrupt DU and post threads in the GLBT forum bragging about causing disturbances and lashing out at allies. Maybe the day will come when these people realize how truly unproductive their behavior is.

[Vanje]

180. "These people"

ok

[Zuiderelle]

203. Oh those malcontent gays.

:eyes:

[QC]

116. !

[NYC_SKP]

117. Reccomendo- differunodocumento- itstupenduouso!

key bored!

K and R!

[ruggerson]

121. If you wrote an OP simply lauding equality

I imagine it would be well received. It's not a zero sum game, as I'm sure you know. One can hope Obama succeeds and at the same time push him hard on a host of social issues. I would venture to guess he is expecting that we hold his feet to the fire on these issues, as he himself has indicated just that.

[book_worm]

122. Good post. I've seen good DUers labeled as homophobes just because they say there are too

many posts about Warren and that there are other issues to discuss.

[yourguide]

132. Bingo.

This is not a one issue board although some have been trying to turn it into one.

[Daemonaquila]

243. That claim is also unworthy.

Ah, yes. Along with "Move on!" and "Get over it!" and "It's not such a big deal!" comes "Mean people are turning DU into a 1-issue board!"

There are thousands of posts per day.

The are on every issue under the sun.

There are lots of people discussing those other issues.

Funny, the ones that make it to the Greatest list - ** because as a group DUers are rec'ing and commenting in huge numbers on both sides ** - are about Warren or complaints about why people won't let Warren go. That's not some people trying to turn DU into a one-issue board. That's the community as a whole having a debate because the issue appears to be important to the community as a whole.

To talk about something else:
1) Rec good posts on other issues instead.
2) Talk to people in threads on other issues instead.
3) Ignore the posts about Warren and complaints about the posts about Warren.

Easy.

[Deja Q]

181. Quite.

And people say Republicans have lost touch with reality.

Hell, even I will admit I'm sometimes out of touch with reality.

But reality was, it was "All Warren All the Time" and anybody saying there were other issues were machine-gunned before whining "DU is full of bigots, I'm leaving, waaah!" posts. :eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

133. That was a nice break from the sound of DUers machine-gunning the choir. n/t

[Two Americas]

134. "some people" again

If people have done the things you are saying here - labeling you, etc. - then take that up with the specific people who said the specific things you object to. Problem solved.

Projecting that out onto all who disagree with you, and blaming them for dividing DU, is unfair and inaccurate, and is itself the source of most of the ill will here.

If "most people here agreed" on the Warren issue, there would not be any controversy.

If we ran a poll "should people of color have equal rights with whites" no doubt all would "agree." Are we to then presume that no racist comments are ever posted at DU?

I do not believe that the people holding one opinion on this issue are therefore "ACTIVELY lobbying for division." I do not believe that one side in this debate is solely responsible for the arguments and ill will.

I do not believe that there is any significant effort going on to get people to "march in lockstep." Are not those arguing that we should get over this asking people to march in lockstep - behind the politicians - if anyone is?

Posting "I support equal rights" and "I am opposed to Warren" costs people nothing, and tells us nothing. Using that as a blanket immunity from having your opinions challenged is suppressive.

[ooglymoogly]

137. sorry wrong place

[Solon]

138. Frankly, I don't care if your feelings have been hurt, big fucking whoop dee doo...

don't make a federal case out of it, a lot of people improperly labeled GLBT people and their supporters as PUMAS and anti-Obama disruptors, yet you don't see us starting thread after thread complaining about it.

[wndycty]

141. Did I say my feelings were hurt?

Can a DUer raise a concern about tone without being accused of having hurt feelings

[jaysunb]

147. Stop trying to placate these people Windy

Your OP was well said and the feelings are shared by most of us here.

I too very much resent ANY and EVERY cause being equated w/ the civil rights movement. Many of us that participated felt ( and still do ) we were hijacked by several other other --while equally important-- movements that diluted and in some cases negated our gains....think the womens rights movement for example.
All that did was to give white women a big share of the pie that was intended to correct the past wrongs visited on Black people..men in particular. But I suppose that's a subject that's too complex to explore here.

I too wish that our fellow progressives would use the vast amount of energy that's been displayed over this issue to let their feelings be known to people who don't agree w/ them. I can't imagine how we would have ever made any progress back in my day if we had spent all our time attacking the few allies we had.
But then again, we had lots of leadership that kept us focused on the main goals. For the most part, that seems to be what's lacking in the the G & L quest for equal rights. Hopefully that will change.

:hi:

[Solon]

214. Well, raising a concern about "tone" seems rather hypocritical coming from you...

but you wouldn't know anything about that, now would you? :eyes:

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadBadger]

195. But thats just because you only care about yourself.

[Solon]

220. Yeah, I only care about myself, a straight man defending GLBT people from being bashed...

constantly on this board. Learn a little empathy for the others before you accuse me of only caring about myself. :eyes:

[ooglymoogly]

140. Red herring alert, red herring alert.....no words

[Gman]

145. Excellent post, WndyCty

There is little comparison between the trials the GLBT community experiences today versus what the AA community experienced before and throughout Jim Crow and through the 60's and beyond. If there is any question about this assertion, note that there has never been an Edmond Pettus Bridge moment in the GLBT struggle. The Stonewall Inn moment does not really compare. There have never been firehoses and attack dogs in the GLBT struggle. There have never been churches bombed killing small children. An AA walking alone down a country road 60 years ago was in danger of being kidnapped and lynched. FOr that matter, an AA walking alone down a country road 10 years ago was in danger of being kidnapped and was dragged behind a pickup truck until his body fell apart because he was Black and no other reason.

A great many GLBT community members enjoy standards of living far beyond any African American today. My GLB (I don't know any T's) friends are all very well educated to the person and have great jobs with skills they can take anywhere if they are laid off including going into business for themselves. They often have options the AA community does not have nor, in many cases, can even imagine having even though they have all the ability in the world.

This is not to say that the GLBT struggle is not a righteous one because it is by any definition. But it cannot fairly be compared to the civil rights struggle of the Black community. To attempt to do so diminishes the value of the untold many who died in that struggle.

[Luminous Animal]

148. It is ridiculous posts like this...

that compel folks into an unwanted conversations of equivalency. No one in all honestly would make the claim that the trials of the LGBT communities experiences mirror that of the AA community in any era.

But I do notice that you are willing to make a comparison in order to minimize the risks of being gay in America. And I am glad that all your LGB folks are fabulously wealthy and have oodles of resources, maybe they could donate to the Castro Youth Housing Initiative.

[Gman]

153. You can, of course, read my post however you want to

and you can read into it whatever you like. The fact of the matter is that there are often posts here that declare that the GLBT struggle is of no less importance and of no less hardship than that of the AA's in the 60's. If you want to think my post "minimizes the risks of being gay in America" that's up to you. However, besides Matthew Shepard and a few others, there are few other examples that compare to the perils of a Black man minding his own business and walking down a country road in Mississippi in 1958 or in Paris, Texas in 1998.

[Luminous Animal]

155. Funny....

everyone keeps making that accusation... "The fact of the matter is that there are often posts here that declare that the GLBT struggle is of no less importance and of no less hardship than that of the AA's in the 60's" but are totally unwilling to provide evidence.


By the way, I live in the Castro in San Francisco. Across the street from me is a stub of an alley... kind of dark and secluded, my neighbors and I have to call the cops several times a year when we are woken up in the middle of the night by someone screaming because they are being beaten. Thugs from out of town and thugs in town come to my neighborhood to beat up queers so don't give me any lectures about safety.

[Starry Messenger]

166. This might be a good place for this link here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x106997

[JohnnieGordon]

182. "Matthew Shepard and a few others"..only victims of hate crimes against gays

That's totally absurd, I wanted to put that claim on the outside for someone with some links to set you straight.

[Luminous Animal]

187. See post #166 (n/t)

[JohnnieGordon]

191. Thanks for that link, it's a good start but..

I'm talking more about a link to hate crime statistics, which I'm too lazy to google but others seem to have that kind of thing bookmarked. The poster will just claim all of those people pictured are the only victims, when there have been many thousands more. Violence against gays is commonplace and always has been. Many gay-bashings go unreported or unidentified as hate crimes as well, because the victim was in the closet.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

298. A few weeks ago, a Brooklyn man was killed b/c he was ASSUMED to be gay.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=6546253

He was minding his own business, too.

[JNelson6563]

352. This is a common problem

I wish I had a dollar for every time I have seen someone take offense with a post where none was intended or even detectable by anyone other than the offended party.

Also, I'd be pretty wealthy if I had $1 for everytime someone who disagreed with a thread's premise and the replies kicked said thread.

Julie--who thought such nonsense was reserved for primary season

[EFerrari]

163. You seriously need to learn something about hate crimes against gay people

before you embarrass yourself in this way ever again.

[Vanje]

188. Tell it to this guy

[Maven]

215. Your ignorance is embarrassing.

[Gman]

257. You show me just one Edmond Pettus Bridge moment in GLBT history

and I'll agree with you. The fact is there is not one. Show me just one firehose and guard dog moment in GLBT history and I'll agree with you. Sure, there are isolated incidents of violence against gays. No one says there are not. But show me one instance of gay and straight public water fountains, or where gays had to sit in the back of the bus, or where required to eat at the lunch counter or where they were denied public accomodations and I'll agree.

[Luminous Animal]

270. Why do you want to play this game?

What is your goal in trying to engage people in playing the Oppression Olympics?

[NWHarkness]

296. Your post is highly offensive

GLBT people in this country face the threat of violence all the time, and always have.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

[Cherchez la Femme]

362. What reality do you live in?

It sure isn't the one the rest of us live in here in the US of A.

Try this link, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=221&topic_id=106997
learn the stories of those pictured -- and they're just a drop in the bucket.

The ignorance here is astounding, what's worse it's wielded proudly.

[mentalslavery]

149. Hey-Homophob!

Don't let the comments get to you. You dont really know who people are or what their motivations are. I feel ya on these issues. I believe and hope that reasoned dialogue will prevail.

[Vanje]

190. When the OP actually DOES get called a homophobe

please note that it is from someone who agrees with him.
What the fuck?

Really.

What
The
Fuck

[mentalslavery]

204. Wasnt really calling him a homophob. I think it was pretty clear

that I was just kidding, you know, making fun of others who are quick to call people names.

[Vanje]

211. Oh yeah. Thats funny!

Funny when you call someone a homophobe, but if I did, someone would have to start another couple of threads about it.

Its also funny how all those other "homophobe" comments the OP claimed were aimed at him,...are gone, leaving our poor victem no proof of the nasty name-calling , yet. Heres yours.

[mentalslavery]

218. take your meds and call me in the morning

homophobe!

[Vanje]

223. You're really elevating the discourse

[mentalslavery]

327. Whatever "sheeptramp", Dont use my comments to make

inaccurate points that you know damn well are BS. Dont use me to take cheap shots at the author. You got a problem with the author, take that person on yourself. furthermore, don't start sh&^%^&#*T with me because I won't stand for it. Talk about lowering the discourse.

[PurityOfEssence]

150. Aggressive and thinskinned is a tiresome and anti-social combination

Some of the more stalwart acolytes of our President Elect have habitually been tireless and abusive with their derision, combative with their scorched-earth crusade to eliminate any dissent and simultaneuously thin-skinned, self-righteous and defensive when called to account for their fatuous pronouncements.

Bummer.

Those who hold themselves above others and rain calumny on those who disagree ought to be as "good" as they demand recognition for being. It's the disconnect that draws fire.

[QC]

152. Very true, and well said. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

154. Except for the pesky fact that there is no "best effort"

to label him a homophobe. He's posted the link to the topic that is supposed to support this accusation and there is no there there. He's making a baseless smear to lead into his point. How is that not divisive?

[gollygee]

151. All I've read is that the struggles have some parallels - NOT that they are equivalent

They are two separate struggles for civil rights. There are some parallels, but there are also things about the two struggles that are very different. The reason people draw parallels is partially because the laws and court cases brought about through the African American civil rights movement most likely will also apply to GLBT people.

[Divine Discontent]

159. this is flame-bait if anyone cares - calling out DUers by either name

or saying there's a bunch of people who have attacked you, but not naming them is still flame-bait, because you're stirring up stuff with them. I don't know who you're referring to, and I don't mistrust what you're saying, it's just not supposed to be permitted to call out people in your title because it's flame bait to start more arguments.

The black struggle is different than the gay struggle in the terms that it's not the same exact physical situation - other than that - it shares MANY similarities - violence from people not the same as the group being judged, not being hired, given snide looks, being held back, disapproval of rights (although the fight for AA rights has progressed to nearly full rights in the past 40 years) being given, etc... just b/c someone says that the last group that had to fight for their rights was the black community, the gay community is not worthy of assault from the black community for using references to gain rights - it should be done for all - b/c if the right wing gets their way - rights would be stripped entirely for gays, then eventually over the centuries (and don't think it hasn't happened in history in shorter times) they'd strip it from you if they could. Close-minded types have no care who they harm.

have a good day

[Luminous Animal]

185. There is an effort to deny LGBT rights movement

an historical reference. There is a good post on DU here: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/28/113040/63/484/677857. It outlines how queers are being denied a metaphor. It is too long to excerpt but I'd like to point out that King himself used an historical metaphor when comparing the tactics and struggles of the civil rights movement to the earlier struggles of the labor movement. By doing so, was King demeaning the labor movement or making equivalencies? Here is a quote from King's speech to

Negroes in the United States read the history of labor and find it mirrors their own experience. We are confronted by powerful forces telling us to rely on the goodwill and understanding of those who profit by exploiting us. They deplore our discontent, they resent our will to organize, so that we may guarantee that humanity will prevail and equality will be exacted. They are shocked that action organizations, sit-ins, civil disobedience and protests are becoming our everyday tools, just as strikes, demonstrations and union organization became yours to insure that bargaining power genuinely existed on both sides of the table.

"We want to rely upon the goodwill of those who oppose us. Indeed, we have brought forward the method of nonviolence to give an example of unilateral goodwill in an effort to evoke it in those who have not yet felt it in their hearts. But we know that if we are not simultaneously organizing our strength we will have no means to move forward. If we do not advance, the crushing burden of centuries of neglect and economic deprivation will destroy our will, our spirits and our hope. In this way, labor's historic tradition of moving forward to create vital people as consumers and citizens has become our own tradition, and for the same reasons."
—Speaking to the AFL-CIO on Dec. 11, 1961

http://www.aft.org/topics/civil-rights/mlk/connect.htm

King made that speech because he recognized the similarities and also he was courting powerful allies whose struggle still existed in living memory.

Why are LGBT activists being asked to diminish our fight? To mitigate the pain? To deny ourselves the metaphor of a civil rights struggle that is still in living memory.

[Yes We Did]

273. While your subject line is true... it's NOT happening on DU. n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

161. Recommended.

:fistbump:

[MNBrewer]

175. "I found the comparisons offensive"

I'm offended that you're offended. Even?

[keepCAblue]

177. That one sentence in itself says all I need to know about the OP. THAT is devisive...n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

245. that one sentence really speaks a lot about the OP. nt

[Deja Q]

179. Well said.

:thumbsup:

K&R (#69 BTW, but I'd like to see it up to #144 before the 24 hour window expires...)

[Luminous Animal]

194. Yes, 144 recommends for a post

that smears other DUers without any evidence for his accusations. UnFUCKINGbelievable.

"Some people" might say that that is catapulting the propaganda.

[Skittles]

216. I agree

it is crap

[boppers]

183. Maybe lobbying for "separateness" is part of what causes division?

Arguing that there are differences in different groups fighting for their civil rights is... obvious.

If we're trying to find common ground, why is it so important to highlight the differences?

[NJmaverick]

186. People have come to understand that seperate is not equal

[Richd506]

196. K & R

[Luminous Animal]

197. Do you also find offensive

King's comparison of the civil rights movement to the labor movement?

Was King equating the movements or was he making an historical metaphor?

Negroes in the United States read the history of labor and find it mirrors their own experience. We are confronted by powerful forces telling us to rely on the goodwill and understanding of those who profit by exploiting us. They deplore our discontent, they resent our will to organize, so that we may guarantee that humanity will prevail and equality will be exacted. They are shocked that action organizations, sit-ins, civil disobedience and protests are becoming our everyday tools, just as strikes, demonstrations and union organization became yours to insure that bargaining power genuinely existed on both sides of the table.

"We want to rely upon the goodwill of those who oppose us. Indeed, we have brought forward the method of nonviolence to give an example of unilateral goodwill in an effort to evoke it in those who have not yet felt it in their hearts. But we know that if we are not simultaneously organizing our strength we will have no means to move forward. If we do not advance, the crushing burden of centuries of neglect and economic deprivation will destroy our will, our spirits and our hope. In this way, labor's historic tradition of moving forward to create vital people as consumers and citizens has become our own tradition, and for the same reasons."
—Speaking to the AFL-CIO on Dec. 11, 1961

http://www.aft.org/topics/civil-rights/mlk/connect.htm

[Luminous Animal]

201. Is this offensive, too?

The American Jewish Congress (AJC) served as an ecumenical partner to Martin Luther King in the struggle for civil rights. In 1958 King spoke to the AJC convention declaring, ‘‘My people were brought to America in chains. Your people were driven here to escape the chains fashioned for them in Europe. Our unity is born of our common struggle for centuries, not only to rid ourselves of bondage, but to make oppression of any people by others an impossibility’’

Was King saying that the struggles were equivalent?

[The Doctor.]

205. There is a threshold after which outrage is indulged for its own sake,

rather than expressed towards a purpose.

There are thankfully only a very few who are so bereft of reason.

Dead-on OP.

[wndycty]

206. Thanks

:kick:

[Luminous Animal]

225. There is a threshold where bigotry should not be celebrated...

and the National stage at one of the most historic moments in the U.S. is one step too far. I would never abide David Duke such an honor and I doubt you would, either. I do not abide Warren. He is a threat to the LGBT community. He commands the attention and respect of millions of people who he can galvanize with a simple email. That you find outrage over this so-called "bereft of reason" is outright sad.

I come from a family that spent much of their live fighting for economic and social justice. We suffered much humiliation and some violence for doing so. That I have to do similar, here on a Democratic board, at the age of 51, is heartbreakingly depressing.

[Jester Messiah]

208. Yep, I'm right there with ya.

I'm convinced we're suffering a plague of rage-junkies.

[AndyTiedye]

210. It Would be Far More Constructive to Focus on the Similarities than the Differences

I just read all the way through both threads, and could not find
the accusations you described in this OP.

You also never explained WHY you find any comparison offensive.
Your other thread, and this one have mostly turned into a
"we suffered more than you did" flamewar, including your replies.

Analogies are always imperfect, but to imply that we have no right
to mention both in the same sentence is to cut off some very useful
conversation. You acknowledge in your earlier OP that each can
learn from the experience of the other, and to do that we need to
have that kind of discussion.

Surely it would be more constructive to focus on the similarities.

[Tarheel_Dem]

217. "Surely it would be more constructive to focus on the similarities."

Funny, that's exactly what Obama was trying to do with the selection of Warren. Ironic...huh?

[Luminous Animal]

219. Shore is!

I'd like Obama to spell out what those similarities are... Is it the way the Warren's HIV/AIDS program is actually killing people in Africa? How Warren's poverty program's donations actually go towards promoting Warren than helping poor people? Or is it Warren's belief that women who get abortions are Nazi's? Or how about promoting the biblical notion that women are subordinate to men?

Obama threw more than one segment of the population under the bus. But never mind! It's politically brilliant! Bigots, homophobes, and misogynists will join the Democratic party and the South! The South! Will r-i-i-i-i-s-e again!

[Solon]

221. Hell, I started a thread on that, and only one person tried to dispute it...

with a general "he does good works" BS line with no facts to back it up.

[AndyTiedye]

229. How is That Supposed to Work?

[Luminous Animal]

230. Nobody knows!

It seems that it is sufficient enough just to say the word "similarities" without actually pointing out any!

[Warren Stupidity]

224. Fascinating: this ain't locked. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

226. Ain't it?

No consequences for baseless smearing of queers.

[Kittycat]

227. Great post, Windy... K&R.

[Luminous Animal]

228. Nobody called windy a homophobe...

there were no best efforts to smear him as such. It can not be a good post if the entire premise is based on something that never happened.

By the way, Wndy is offended that queers make historic comparisons to AAs civil rights struggles with their own fight for civil rights. Are you also offended?

And if you are, do you also agree that MLK was wrong when he made similarities of the civil rights movement to the struggles of the labor movement and those of the Jews seeking freedom to establish a Jewish state?

[HughMoran]

232. A thread every DUer should read (IMO - especially at this time)

I don't know what to say other than that there are many, many of us here who feel like you do but refrain from expressing our opinions. I've been here long enough to know what was going to happen once I heard of this choice and I've chosen to stay away and not participate. Thank you for expressing how many of us (sitting on the sidelines)feel.

[Luminous Animal]

233. So, you are offended

that the LGBT community invokes the AA civil rights movement in order to advance the argument for their rights?

[HughMoran]

234. Not offended by the arguments on either side of this issue (are there two sides?)

It's not the arguments that are the issue - I think we all agree on the substance of this issue. It's the not so subtle suggestions that "you're either with us, or against us" that sound all too familiar to those who are not ready for war yet.

[Luminous Animal]

236. Sorry, you are not ready for war...

it will go one without you. The LGBT community had a moment of liberation with full civil rights with the California Supreme Court decision. It is, quite simply, "you're either with us, or against us", until that dream is realized for all Americans.

[HughMoran]

237. That somewhat mischaracterizes what I said

I'm completely supportive of overturning Prop 8 and spreading that victory over the entire land. That vote has enraged and energized me as well. My point was that the bad choice Obama made is neither the beginning nor the end of this battle - it was raging before this and will rage on for many years to come. This is not a new issue.

[Luminous Animal]

238. It is not a new issue...

but it is an energizing issue. Betrayal and its subsequent anger are powerful motivators.

[Karenina]

240. Ready, FIRE!!! aim...

SOOO many posts illustrating Wndy's OP. Please explain to me the motivation for batting at the head of the poster above you, who FULLY SUPPORTS our common aims? :freak:

Exhibit A, anyone? :shrug:

[bridgit]

242. I think that's perfect!! I can see the Ad campaign

www.ReadyFIREaim.com where people come to meet, beat & bat the heads of people just like them!


I'm down with that :bounce: I'm donating :kick:

[Luminous Animal]

264. I was agreeing with HughMoran...

just simply elaborating. If you want to read more into it, so be it.

[Karenina]

278. Errraaa... OK! "Never mind."

:crazy:

[NorthernSpy]

256. who "betrayed" you?

Not Obama. He's been forthright about his belief than marriage is the union of a man and a woman.

Same stance that Hillary takes, by the way.

[Luminous Animal]

265. Why yes he has!

I have acknowledged that elsewhere on this board. What Obama has also said is that he believes that gay marriage is a matter for the states, but not the Feds. He also issued a statement against prop 8. And, he is for civil unions so I assume that he doesn't feel that gay sex is akin to pedophilia.

And yet, he gives a national platform to a man who the press dubs "America's Pastor", who has played "smear the queer" for decades and who teemed up with other bigots and put the power of his pulpit and his pocketbook to deny queers their civil rights.

That right there is betrayal.

[TreasonousBastard]

235. And may I just add that...

it's only a few here who are doing the screaming and accusing lately. But, they are doing it a lot, and for a while seemed to be taking over the board. I know personally of several good people who have left over it.

Injustices have always been far more common than they should be in that mythical perfect world and must be fought, but it is possible to doom your own cause by talking too much and listening too little.

[wndycty]

250. "talking too much and listening too little"

Very good point.

[rpannier]

239. One could also argue that the dismissive way people on your side of the fence refer to those who are

angry.

The dismissive comments such as "They (anti-Warren people) don't see the big picture."

"They are whiners..."

"They complain about everything Obama does."

These comments are used to diminish the anger and frustration members of the GLBT community and their supporters feel.
Rather than address this and other issues, it appears they are more concerned with resorting to 2-second spin.

[wndycty]

247. My side of the fence? Well since I support civil rights for the LGBT community, gay marriage and. .

. . .I'm opposed to Warren at the inaugural what side am I on? What side are you on?

[rpannier]

346. My apologies on using the word your

I never intended to place you on eitherside.

I was typing too fast and failed to proofread.

It should have read "the dismissive way people on the other side of the fence..."

[wndycty]

364. Here is something to consider

A lot of us are on the same side of the fence as you are, but there is a disagreement on that side, but don't for one minute think we are not on your or better yet our side of the fence with you.

[RiverStone]

241. No nuance here --- ya simply said it right

Good post!

I'm very unhappy about Warren, but still thrilled Obama is our next pres. Pretty damn simple. And I can feel both unhappy and thrilled at the same time.

peace~:)

K&R

[scubadude]

246. If we all agree, why say anything at all?...

Now if you are trying to make a point, change peoples minds, (which to my mind is why we're here, not back slapping) then you must expect return arguments.

It is about how we communicate. Make your point, listen to the argument, make up your mind, learn and move on. That's how I do it. I'm not always right or always wrong. One thing for sure is I always learn.

Scuba

[wndycty]

248. I think post #239 proves my point. . .

. . .we do all agree, however that poster thinks I'm on the other side of the fence.

[scubadude]

332. People don't always understand compromise. Somtimes that old

Republican mantra rears it's ugly head. "You are either with us or you are against us."

The idea that race or gender are dividing lines is rapidly dissolving. I have the perfect example in a Barack Obama experience I had recently.

I'm a white middle aged dude in the crowd of thousands of folks in Grant Park waiting for Barack to win the election. As I looked around the field there were thousands of folks like me, but we weren't all white, black, hispanic, Christian, Muslim, Budhist, Gay or Lesbian, we were folks supporting Barack Obama! There we no separations, no great divides, what there was was unity of hope, vision, and action.

I looked at a handsome young black fellow, smiled and raised my hand, he raised his and I cried out "Dude, we are witnessing History, the first Hawaiian to become President!", he laughed and we high fived. We laughed together because we both got it. The joke was simple but the message profound. We are one.

If you feel right in your argument, shrug off the comments of those who don't understand. Keep talking, and keep listening. Eventually the message gets across, and they are changed, or you are changed. Either way we all win.

Scuba

[BrklynLiberal]

251. K&R for talking to each since we agree on so much more than we disagree on.

[wndycty]

253. Thanks

:kick:

[NorthernSpy]

254. You're being a lot nicer about this than I'm inclined to be, Wndycty...

I'm seeing the same few individuals who either pointedly ignored -- or defended -- the Hillary campaign's race-baiting during the primaries now screaming bloody murder over Obama inviting Rick Warren to give the invocation.

"Oh what an insult!" "Oh what a slap in the face!" Etc, etc. :eyes:


Perhaps those memories are what, for me, freezes sympathy in its tracks.



(edit: typo)

[wndycty]

255. Thanks but this thread is about how many of us support the LGBT community even though. . .

. . .folks want to pretend we don't care about civil rights in the LGBT community.

[NorthernSpy]

260. And I'm saying that there's a small group of individuals @ DU who will never believe you...

... on that score. So why bother?


Me, I'm well and truly alienated at this point. I think I'll just watch the inauguration and ignore any complaints.

[Rockholm]

259. So, teh gays are the Hillary supporters?

Who have been disrupting the Obamafest since the primaries? I guess that makes PUMAQ's.

[NorthernSpy]

261. ^^^ perfect example of what I was thinking of when I told Wndycty not to bother...

:eyes:


It really doesn't matter what anyone actually says, does it? You'll just read into it whatever you need to see.

[wndycty]

263. Very good point. . .but I can't ignore being painted as a homophobe who doesn't care. . .

. . .

[AntiFascist]

301. Plenty of the gay and lesbians who are outspoken against Warren...

were staunch supporters of Obama during his campaign. That fact seems to get ignored.

[Rockholm]

308. You don't get it.

There are many DUers who were Hillary supporters. She lost and we got over it. There are/were peple on DU who did not see eye to eye with Obama and they were made out to be Hillary supporters who were now only seen as disruptors.
Now, the post to which I responded, paints in a broad brush, gays who are upset with the Warren choice as Hillary supporters and that we are one and the same. You have pointed out that were are not, which is true.

[AntiFascist]

312. I get it! My post was intended to support yours n/t

[Rockholm]

315. Got it.

I'm a little slow right now....need afternoon coffee.

[NorthernSpy]

323. Actually, I didn't say anything at all about LGBT DUers...

Please note that I posted about the Primary Wars angle -- period.

[RaleighNCDUer]

266. Sometimes, the best thing to do is stop talking.

This whole brouhaha reminds me of arguments I had with my wife. Eventually, I figured out that while I was talking logic, she was talking emotions. And my insistence the "emotions are not reality" didn't help - she wouldn't accept the nuance that emotions are NOT reality, but how you FEEL about reality. The only solution was to walk away from the argument.

Might I suggest the same, here?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

269. Being "uncomfortable" with considering GLBT rights a human rights issue doesn't make you a homophobe

But it's a bizarre, backward viewpoint of the sort a homophobe would promote.

There are doubtless some black revolutionaries who have fond recollections of Stokely Carmichael's "Back to Africa" movement.

As a white man, if I made my mission on DU talking about how black people should go back to Africa I imagine I would get called a lot of things.

And I would eventually recognize that I was being an ass, rather than continuing to lecture people about how my offensive views are super-cool.

If you promulgate views that are widespread among bigots you get painted with that brush.

Fair? Unfair? Who knows...

Welcome to the internet.

[wndycty]

275. You have just MISREPRESENTED my position

I am not at all uncomfortable with GLBT rights being a human rights issue.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

277. Dude, whatever. Whatever your real feelings your posts read like simmering barely disguised bigotry.

I'm glad you are all for GLBT rights.

I am, however, mystified why you are perpetually surprised that people misinterpret statements that one usually only hears from bigots.

Perhaps your consistent tone of burning hostility toward GLBT people on DU gets misread as you having a problem with GLBT people.

[wndycty]

280. I have a burning hostility toward GLBT people on DU? Really?

Again you are MISREPRESENTING MY POSITION. You are lying.

Check out these threads. Again, how do I have burning hostility towards GLBT folks?


DUers on FACEBOOK voice your opposition to Warren by joining this group:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7992460

There is more evidence that Warren is a hatemonger than there is Jeremiah Wright is. . .
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8006033

If we are supposed to focus on the good parts of Warren's message we owe the same courtesy to. . .
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8018212

How about this. We ENCOURAGE everyone to stand up and turn their BACKS when Warren speaks
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7989893

NOTE TO MODS: I'm not sure if this is appropriate but lies are being spread on DU about my position on this issue and I felt the need to respond. I'm not afraid to take controversial positions and I can deal with folks who don't agree with me, but I have no tolerance for folks who lie about me. If this is not the thing to do please provide guidance because the only thing I have on DU is my reputation.

[Bobbie Jo]

291. No, it's easier to make the "stealth" bigot reference than try to understand your thinking.

:eyes:

(borrowing the word "stealth" from an earlier post, as it referred to a "stealth STFU" thread.)

Handy word, that one. :-)

[Luminous Animal]

279. He did misrepresent your position...

The way I see it is that you are offended when queers note the similarities between their fight for civil rights and the AA civil rights movement. Perhaps you would feel better if they used the disability rights fight as an historical metaphor.

Oooops! Can't do that either! Disability rights activists also acknowledged the similarities to their movement and the AA civil rights movement as a tactic to gain access.

[wndycty]

283. I am against metaphors PERIOD!

One example I have used. As a Black man I take extreme offense when my own folks, BLACK PEOPLE. Call slavery and Jim Crow the Black Holocaust. Its that simple to me its about respect.

My respect for ANYONE's struggle makes it so I do not endorse and take exception these metaphors.

I'm not singling out the LGBT community.

[Luminous Animal]

281. For the record.

I do not think Wndycty is a bigot or a homophobe. I do think his "offended" position is divisive because it is based on the false premise that queers are drawing equivalencies rather than noting similarities.

[wndycty]

284. If you look at the first thread. I am against EQUAVALENCIES PERIOD

It has nothing to do with sexual orientation whatsoever.

[Luminous Animal]

285. And I find your position untenable and divisive.

You have presented a straw man because nobody makes the argument that any fight for any civil or social justice is equivalent to another.

You are offended by something that does not exist.

[wndycty]

286. As long as you are challenging my belief and understand that I'm not targeting the LGBT community. .

. . .we can agree to disagree and that is all I want. Also, after a long hard battle I sincerely appreciate your defense of me not being a bigot or homophobic up thread. You didn't have to but you did and that matters a lot.

[Luminous Animal]

288. Thanks for noting that...

Contrary to some people's perception of my intent or motives, I've not once been angry or outraged on this thread. I've been a community activist and organizer for 40 years and have learned to rein in my anger for moments of real and present danger.

As an aside, your declaration that you are against all metaphors made me chuckle. I immediately imagined, "What do we want?" "NO METAPHORS!" "When do we want them?" "NOW!"

[bridgit]

287. I agree, and I've made my thoughts known. It's run it's course, and is dragging the board down...

Even in this thread I see relationships between gay/human rights and civil rights, union/workers rights, and the pernicious behaviors visited upon the Jews presumably by ways & means such as the Holocaust; trying to be established as justifications for the former: gay/human rights. It isn't a matter of anyone disagreeing here, in that we all agree with gay/human rights as a summary matter. But when in the attempt to utilize the hard fought, hard won matters, images & histories of others; the matter may have boiled down however inadvertently to one of image control.

Performing such duties for a living I am able to suggest, that the process of delivering the message of gay/human rights to people able to confirm them outside the base; can be made more streamlined by establishing a more laminar flow of events. A process that encourages people sticking their fingers into each other's eyes, cutting people off at the knees, pushing people around, calling names even without doing so and people that know know there is a way to do just that, willful ignorance on either side; all these sorts of inflammatory debasing activities go toward the establishment of a turbulent flow pattern instead; and while some consider a turbulent flow pattern a noble end pursuit...others are understanding that such turbulence contributes to the internal pressures of the delivery system; they can raise the pressure beyond what is understood as operationally optimal; beyond a point, such pressures are able to impede the flow vital matters, etc...they can even degrade the system, break it, requiring repair. The odomter of your car may go to round 140+mph, drive it round the rest of the day and half of tomorrow at 130mph and no less, everywhere you go, slam on the brakes especially in that you'll need to, then right back up to 130 over & over...soon you'll understand the limits of systems

Neither is it a matter of semantics rending the civil rights movement, union/workers rights movement, the Holocaust different from gay/human rights there are different:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXBvLbYqVMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CoIe9k7rGk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHAF0sgzKOs

It's time for DU to come back home

[bertman]

289. Thanks, wndycty, for calming words. Too late to recc, but not to kick.

[cboy4]

290. Oh please.

:eyes:

A lecture from one of the usual suspects from the primaries.

[wndycty]

303. Thanks for coming in and spreading the hate. . .

:kick:

[Bluebear]

306. Yeah, all of a sudden butter wouldn't melt in your mouth. Whatever.

[cboy4]

313. You have an "interesting" definition of hate.

LOL

We all know you have close ties to Chicago, Illinois politics and will apologize for each and every fuck up.

[wndycty]

320. So now you really are interested in going after me aren't you. . .LOL

:kick:

[donco6]

310. It's only the third one today.

Be grateful for something.

[NorthernSpy]

325. So you admit it -- it IS about the primaries!

I knew it.

[Luminous Animal]

326. So this is how it is, eh?

"The gays" don't really have a beef, they are just disgruntled Hillary supporters.

Next thing you know, "the gays" will be blamed for ruining the board. (Oops, already done!)

Hell, I can't wait until DUers tell "the gays" that they should be thankful for Warren! (Oops! That's been done, too!)

[NorthernSpy]

331. Thing is, I haven't once equated "gays" with "disgruntled Hillary supporters"...

In fact, it's the people who are lobbing accusations of homophobia who keep making that equation. Ironically enough.

[Evergreen Emerald]

294. Perhaps what goes around comes around

I remember you from the primaries.

[wndycty]

304. LOL you remember from the primaries?

Do you have list of scores to settle? This should be fun.

[Cherchez la Femme]

365. Your rhetoric is memorable

What revenge was enacted?

God, are you full of yourself

[NorthernSpy]

324. Thanks a bunch for proving the point I made upthread...

A lot of this really is about a small number of individuals who are still sore over Hillary, still resentful of Obama.

[Evergreen Emerald]

330. I have no idea what "scores" there are to settle

I have not accused him of anything, and have never commented about his beliefs on the Warren issue, so your "point" is wrong.

I do remember him, however, accusing people who disagreed with him of being racist. I hope he has learned a lesson from all of this.

[wndycty]

343. Me calling someone racist has nothing to do with whether or not they agree with me. . .

. . .and shame on you for the character assassination.

[Evergreen Emerald]

351. and it continues...apparently no lessons learned.

what a shame.

[wndycty]

353. You must love starting shit with your drive by comments. . .

. . .a discussion of race is not the same as calling someone racist (I understand you might have a hard time realizing that), nowhere in this thread or my original thread on the comparisons of the Black experience and the struggle for LGBT rights did I call anyone racist. So move along now with your false accusations that I'm calling anyone racist over this.

It would appear you are using this thread to settle old scores. Need a hug?

[Evergreen Emerald]

357. I am sorry that you are so bullheaded that you are unwilling to step

back and see the bigger picture. Blame, point, divert, and close your mind.

It keeps you from growing.

[wndycty]

358. Who am I blaming? How am I not growing?

What are you accusing me of?

[readmoreoften]

297. Maybe you're not "homophobic", you're still belittling and self-righteous and

nasty to the LGBT community.

Maybe you should stop having such a strident opinion about what is or isn't homophobia. Maybe your straight-self has NO IDEA was is rude and isn't.

Poor baby...

[wndycty]

305. How am I nasty? Do tell this should be fun

:kick:

[donco6]

309. Case in point.

:eyes:

[Rockholm]

311. That is pretty much the point, isn't it?

These folks were the same way towards those who supported Hillary. WndyCty may not be a homophobe, but he/she is is quite the belittling and straight-righteous one.

[wndycty]

321. So this is all about settling old scores?

LOL

[NorthernSpy]

328. Told ya.

It's really about leftover bitterness from the primaries. Who's surprised?

[wndycty]

329. Yeah when folks say they remember me from the primaries it seems like. . .

. . .I was on some sort of "enemies" list.

[sniffa]

333. That's exactly what my beef is

[JVS]

340. That is not the case for all the people bothered by this.

For some, but not for all.

[WilliamPitt]

307. Cheers and thank you.

[wndycty]

319. Thanks for the support Will

:kick:

[Zuiderelle]

334. Oh for fuck's sake.

Now we can all shut up, Will has spoken.

:eyes:

[Bluebear]

335. Recommend! Well said sir! The voice of reason!

[Zuiderelle]

336. LOL!

:spray:

[sniffa]

345. .

:D

[Maven]

337. Oh, cheers.

Quite.

:eyes:

[Bluebear]

338. Bottoms up.

[bridgit]

349. Oooh la la!!

:blush:

[Name removed]

356. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

368. Sorry Will, the OP sucks so hard the air left the room.

[Bluebear]

369. :)

[wndycty]

370. The air left the room? 122 recommendations?

That doesn't seem like the air left the room.

[Forkboy]

371. And how many people thought the war in Iraq was a nifty idea at one time?

Popularity doesn't equate to being right.

[Naturyl]

339. Kick

This situation has become absurd, and some members of the LGBT community are not doing themselves any favors by conducting witch hunts.

I avoid DU when it gets like that.

[sniffa]

344. You don't seem to be avoiding it now

Git goin' then

[Creideiki]

347. That's about what

Condi's dad told Martin Luther King.

Wrong side of history or right side of history. Which one do you want to be on?

[Spryboy]

348. You need to get over it

As an African America I am uncomfortable when folks try to equate the struggle for LGBT rights with the Black experience in the US.

That is YOUR problem. You need to get over it. There are many, many valid parallels, and it's a good thing to raise those to point out just how wrong anti-gay bigotry is.

I posted a thread on the issue the other day and said I found the comparisons offensive.

You need to get over it. You are wrong. In fact, your statement is VERY offensive to me. You do not OWN prejudice, bigotry, ignorance, or oppression. Nobody is EQUATING anyone's experience... every experience is different. But comparisons are VALID and REAL, and USEFUL in communicating.

Equating the opposition to interracial marriage to expose how ridiculous and stupid the opposition to gay marriage is, is VALID.

Anyone who gets incinsed that anyone would "dare" compare the struggle for gay equality in the face of ignorant bigotry to the ignorant bigotry shown against blacks (or jews or women or anyone else) is an offensive ignorant, arrogant fuckwad, and really needs to take a good long hard look in the mirror to understand why they think ignorant bigotry against them is "more than" ignorant bigotry against gay people. I'm really sick of that bullsh!t. No minority "owns" oppression or bigotry, and no ignorant bigotry is "more than" or "less than" any other. To even insinuate that your oppression or battles are more real than anyone elses is offensive, and you should know better. EVERYONE who is a liberal should know better.

Again, NOBODY is saying it's the SAME THING. But drawing parallels and comparisons is valid, and real, and to get upset over someone doing that points out a flaw in your own thinking, and something you should seriously examine and work on fixing in yourself.

[wndycty]

350. 48 posts and telling me to get over it. . .

Welcome to DU!

[Spryboy]

367. Hey now...

48 posts doesn't mean I haven't been around here a LONG time, and doesn't mean I haven't been working in the trenches of gay rights and civil rights for decades.

Seems you would dismiss my words because my 'number' isn't high enough.

The fact remains that ANY minority that has the gall to point to another minority and say "how DARE you compare your struggle to mine!" is just flat-out wrong. It's arrogant, self-abosorbed, selfish, stupid, and completely counter-productive.

So seriously, whatever is motiving this feeling in you... examine it and figure out where it's coming from and how to GET OVER IT, because it's at best insulting.

[genna]

354. I find it admirable that you kept discussing this issue in this way with lockstep people.

I thought your desire to work to a compromise place...agree to disagree...showed enormous patience.

I don't mind the comparisons to the black community as much as I resent the desire for someone to use the struggle African Americans for liberty, to end segregation, and now gain more equality (I remember the chapter in the Autobiography of Malcolm X labeled MASCOT when my fears surface for Obama) while they blanketly bash AAs for being religious and homophobic.


I support gay rights. A DUer convinced me that civil unions are another form of legalized segregation. That argument is persuasive for me being an AA.

I am a Christian. I am not convinced being a gay rights supporter and a Christian are mutually exclusive realities. I'm tired of the hits on all Christians and being painted with such a broad brush.


Windy City keeps trying to reconcile the disagreement over how we get to the equality point. More power to him. It takes more patience than I have to listen to someone tell me they need my/our support in order to gain equal rights when they use a broad brush to try to invalidate everything I believe in. I choose to use my energy to argue with other Christians who believe God made an entire class of people unworthy to be His children and enjoy those benefits (ie. freedom to exist and be given into marriage).


Maybe Windy City will be victorious in justifying his nuances. For the true believer, the only position which will work is totally embracing their individual and specific point of view. I don't think that is possible. AAs have been fighting many of the same battles for equality in different fields for years. For some, our equality is still an undesirable goal. The most we can hope for is tolerance.

[wndycty]

355. Thanks Genna

:kick:

[Orsino]

359. I support attempts to find common ground, in general...

...even maddeningly perverse ones. :D

[Phx_Dem]

372. self-delete