Show your support for the DU GLBT Community.

[Tigress DEM]

Poll question: Show your support for the DU GLBT Community.

This is really not entirely an intellectual issue and words alone can not solve it.

Nothing we can do or say will be enough because the hurt is huge, so huge that words fail to even scratch the surface and when they do only reveal more pain beneath.

When the KKK strung up blacks for no reason except the color of their skin, blacks looked at any white person as a potential enemy. Our GLBT community feels simularly strung up and abandoned first with Prop 8 and now with Warren.

We have to do whatever constructive thing is needed to resolve the issues and understand that when well meaning suggestions are slapped back in our face that it isn't because it's wrong to dialog and toss ideas out there, it's because the dialog itself is causing more pain. Stop the pain. Don't argue with the GLBT Community and tell them how they "Should" feel. They feel as they do and they want to be heard and get confimation that the majority of DU isn't going to abandon part of it's community as "acceptable collatoral loss" in this war with the reich wing.


I support the GLBT community and their pursuit of equality under the law.
I do everything I can to understand and empathize with their feelings.
I will do whatever constructive thing is needed to assist GLBT in their efforts to be heard and understood.
I'm done talking about the Warren deal until it can be one topic of many, but not the only one.

[Magrittes Pipe]

1. K&R. I support the GLBT community.

And a hearty "fuck you" to all who tell them to "get over it."

[Tigress DEM]

3. I had to change the poll as I was wanting it to allow multiple selections.

I think it still accurately reflects your choice in support of GLBT community.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. ...

:loveya:

[Lisa0825]

2. why do the results say

4 votes, 80% when the other 2 choices have no votes? Did a category get deleted?

[Tigress DEM]

5. In previous polls, I've seen it allow multiple choices, but that option didn't happen.

So I put the options above and agree, disagree because the poll only allows you to pick 1 selection.

Sorry about the confusion.

[No Elephants]

4. Polls are nice, but posting is not enough. Take action in the real world. Donate to

and volunteer with the Human Rights Campaign or another reputable organization, write letters and emails to the media, etc. Too many seems to think that posting is taking action. It really isn't.

[Tigress DEM]

11. Many on DU already do those things.

I know I have, but the poll is simply so that the GLBT community can see that it really is (or is not) the majority of DU that supports them. On DU if it isn't posted, how would anyone know? You expect the MSM to cover it?

Posting may not be enough, but on a discussion board it is how we find out what is what.

It is an actual assumption out there that "real support" is only from a minority of DU and that there is a wimpy middle of the road contingent and the opposite minority that does not support them. I believe that most of DU supports the GLBT community even those who are tired of Warren threads or have different opinions or ideas about things.

[davidinalameda]

6. it's sad that this even has to be posted

to remind the "progressives" and "liberals" on this board that the GLBT community still doesn't have basic civil rights

[Tigress DEM]

17. It's not about what isn't but what IS.

There IS support here for GLBT, LOTS of it. We want EVERYONE** to have their rights. Period.


This is about taking a snapshot of the HUGE amount of support that is here to help put people's minds at ease so we can quit fighting among ourselves about things we basically agree upon.

WE know what we want to see at the end of the road. A healthy country that can be self sustaining and ALL people of ALL colors and stripes able to have full rights in fact and law, not just in cyberspace.

ALL of us have less rights than we had 8 years ago. 100 miles in from the border - any US border - all your rights are null and Homeland Security can do what it wants with you without so much as a by your leave.

8 years ago if Clinton had done the things *ush did, he'd have been impeached, sent to the Hague, drawn and quartered and dragged through Washington DC until his tattered remains were unrecognizable. 70% of Republicans are known to have taken money from Abrahmoff but how many have been charged with the crime?

People are having their homes seized by corporations under eminent domain or being thrown out of them while the "poor banks" get compensated. How can you have the rights to do whatever you want in your own home if no one can afford housing anymore? How does a piece of paper help you if all the water supplies are poisoned with pollutants to the point of die of dehydration or drink and be sick.

There is SO MUCH WORK TO DO and we need to be together to do it.

We are STILL in the battle to get our country back on it's feet. We are battling for ALL your rights here, not just the civil rights issue.

















{**OK, we don't WANT reich wing hypocrites to have rights, but as part of everyone they get them, so no one says we are playing favorites.}

[davidinalameda]

19. you may have less rights

we still have no rights

[Tigress DEM]

23. If ALL my rights can be taken away at any moment for no reason at all, it's the same as having none.

My point is, my stake in getting this country revitalized and aware enough to get you full rights is the same as yours. If anyone is oppressed, we all are.

That said you still have some rights. You voted. You have enough going for you that you have access to a computer. You aren't being jailed for same sex co-habitation. You walk the streets freely, though I would recommend caution nearest the borders.

I'm just saying, "Let's all take some deep breaths and get constructive on what the solution will be and quit nit picking each other so much."

[davidinalameda]

55. no it's not

but I don't have the energy to argue

[Balderdash]

7. Thank you so much.

You have touched my heart and my soul is grateful.

[Tigress DEM]

18. You are welcome and love your screen name.

I just think people need to SEE how much support there is so it isn't a worry anymore.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

9. I'd LOVE to know who voted "disagree"

[Tigress DEM]

12. That may be an error of the poll itself. It started with 4 choices & other...

I thought it would allow for people to select multiple options but it did not. If someone selected option 2 before I finished editing it may have shown up as disagree. 4 votes had gone through before my edit did.

[LostinVA]

15. Someone downthread just posted they voted "disagree" -- the poll isn't messed up

Just FYI.

[Tigress DEM]

24. Still could be off by 1

I think the disagree was with my last suggestion and not against supporting GLBT community.

Got my ass chewed off for suggesting not talking about the Warren thing until we could do so constructively and civilly.

You win some, you lose some.

[whistler162]

10. Another one of these idiotic posts!

I voted disagree because of the endless whining and stupidity of posts like this.

[Zuiderelle]

13. WTF?

[LostinVA]

14. Very interesting response

:eyes:

[Tigress DEM]

25. Some people's children. Oh well, it takes all kinds. nt

[EstimatedProphet]

75. Another one of these idiotic complaints!

[MADem]

16. I agree with most of your post, but that bit about censoring people from talking about Warren is BS.

I think censoring people is WRONG.

The rest of your points are fine, but that little poison pill at the end sounds a lot like "And oh, you faggots (with love to my gay brothers and sisters) STFU for now, why doncha? If we agree that we empathize with you and your little troubles, and we'll try to be compassionate and stuff, and we promise to, in some vague way, HELP you, why, you loudmouthed troublemakers and your annoying straight rabblerouser supporters simply have to agree to just HUSH, now, and go along and git along! Let's not TALK ABOUT THIS ANYMORE, mmmmkay? We'll act empathetic, so long as you SHUT UP and let our King be crowned, how's that for a deal??"

The rest of your points are fine, but that last one TOTALLY sucks. NEVER tell people to shut up. Never even suggest it.

Even if you mean it kindly, and not the way it came across to me.

You don't want to talk about it? There IS a solution. HIDE THREAD is your friend. If that doesn't work for you, you can actually IGNORE specific people who talk about it more than you'd like.

[bicentennial_baby]

20. I was waiting for someone else to notice that!

Whew! I'm not the only one.

:)

[Tigress DEM]

26. Do you understand I'm striving to have a balance of topics?

I'm not saying DON'T ever post about him again, but these threads where people are getting out of control don't accomplish anything.

Mainly, I wanted to have a big enough showing of DU as supporting GLBT to put to rest the idea that only a minority do and the rest are either lukewarm or against them.

[noamnety]

30. Do you think the gays here are "out of control" ? nt

[Tigress DEM]

33. I don't think it's about gay vs straight here. I think it's about not fighting with each other.

The posts get out of control. People are calling names and making unfounded accusations. If you aren't part of that, good. If you are, think about it.

Could be a lot of trolls, but everyone can make the attempt to be more constructive and not say if you don't agree with me 100% you're not supportive enough. I don't agree with MYSELF 100% of the time. I'm a DEM.

[noamnety]

37. I'm sorry, I can't do that.

Some people have tried to push the idea that supporting civil rights 95% of the time is good enough. I can't go there. I am pretty hard-lined about that, and have no plans or desire to change, nor do I think it's productive to push others to accept second class status in the interest of unity.

I do see that last statement before your poll as a slap in the face, by the way, and not moving us toward unity. From what I've seen, nobody who is pissed about Warren has tried to shut down other threads on other topics. The subtle implication in this: "I'm done talking about the Warren deal until it can be one topic of many, but not the only one." is that other topics aren't being "allowed" to be discussed, that we are demanding this be the only topic of all threads. I'm not sure why you had to include that at all.

[Tigress DEM]

42. But if you aren't against other topics having equal time, then we are in agreement.

If you can present constructive ideas and not call other DUers names or challenge their right to be here, then you aren't part of the problem.

I'm not asking the GLBT communinity to accept second class status in the interest of unity. MOSTLY I'm asking the rest of us to not argue with the GLBT or try to rationalize things.

AND the reason I included it at all is another OP did say, "I would like empathy, but I'll settle for STFU." So I decided I could oblige. I'm only talking about my support and I'm only going to participate in threads that are constructive. Personal choice. It's still a free country. Do what you think is right.

[noamnety]

48. I don't think we are in agreement.

It's a little more than you deciding you would personally stop posting about Warren. It's a poll, a push-poll at that, encouraging others to sign on to stop the flood of "too many" (in your opinion) threads about Warren and gay rights in general.

I strongly encourage you to start threads on other topics. I have no problem with "balance" in that regard, and nobody here has a problem with other threads on other topics being started. But surely if you want more balance, a more "constructive" way to do it would be to just start other threads on other issues, rather than including the subtle jab in this poll. I wrote this in the glbt forum as well, but I will also post it here so you can see the perspective I am coming from:

------------------
I want to talk about poverty and homelessness and here's a great article I read on the subject - even though that's not the approved topic of the day."

To me, that's a thinly disguised stfu thread, with the message being not just STFU but "I care about REAL issues because I am not as selfish as the gays."

I would like to see those threads deleted and the mods message those people to explain why, and invite them to repost their thread WITHOUT the backhanded slap in the face to gay rights advocates."

------------------
It's pretty simple - if you want more threads on other subjects, start them. I don't think you included the jab to be antagonistic; I think your heart's probably in the right place. I think you are just sort of following the flow there without realizing the underlying message in the same way that others are seeing it.

[noamnety]

29. No, you certainly weren't the only one to notice that.

It was a wtf squinty-eyed moment for me as well.

[EV_Ares]

21. Agree with you on that, eom.

[Tigress DEM]

It is not censoring to have people make their own choice.

On another thread a poster said, "I'd like empathy, but STFU would suffice" so I decided I would oblige and see who else wanted to as well.

I'm not actually asking people who are truly interested in constructive methods to stop posting, but this in-fighting is not helpful at all.

The thing is, more misunderstandings are happening because people are out of control with the Warren issue. It's becoming a flaming issue that is repeating fears as fact and calling each other names. I just thought that we could take a break and talk about other things for awhile.

[Balderdash]

35. I think that you meant well, I really do but

I think I made an ass out of myself because being heard is important and I thought
that your were unconditionally standing with us. I was wrong. Damn it.

[Tigress DEM]

43. I'm asking for balance and for people to back up and get constructive.

Let's say for argument's sake that my state rep, Keith Ellison, who DID swear in on the Koran had a Muslim Cleric say words at his ceremony. A cleric who believes in the old ways and clintectomy's for baby girls. Now, it might upset me horrendously. I prefer to have all my pieces in tact and IF I surgically remove anything, I believe it should be my choice but I'm not going to spend weeks agonizing over it and expect the entire DU to flood his office with letters of complaint. I'm not going to worry about it unless Ellison decides to put out a law about allowing this practice or showing support for that practice.

THAT is what I expect from myself if confronted with a similar situation. I'd even be willing to go farther than that for the GLBT because of the difference in precedence, but only in constructive avenues.

I love you guys as much as myself, maybe a bit more, but I don't want to spend the majority of DUs energy watching people hurt each other when we're here as friends and supposedly working on an agenda that means more freedom for everyone and equal rights for all.

[MADem]

54. Wow, I'd sure expect DU to flood the guy's office with letters of complaint

if he were endorsing chopping little girls' hoo-has, particularly, or condoning the action.

I'd expect DU to rise up and get righteously bullshit about that, and not sit down until the Congressman was heavily corrected. I'd expect rabble rousing, demonstrations, and real, vocal anger about that. I wouldn't consider it a "personal issue" about "surgically removing anything." I would consider it child abuse and mutilation.

See, I WOULD spend weeks agonizing over that, particularly since the Congressman in question with this fictional religious pal is a Democrat.

Again, I would urge you to avail yourself of the HIDE THREAD feature. It will change your life.

[Tigress DEM]

57. Right, IF he were actually condoing it..... but that isn't what we're talking about.

The minister or cleric may be of an opinion, but if the Congress Critter or Prez Elect has completely different views, I don't judge them by the other individual's beliefs.

IN Case you just mis-read here it is again. I should have underlined the original..

...but I'm not going to spend weeks agonizing over it and expect the entire DU to flood his office with letters of complaint. I'm not going to worry about it unless Ellison decides to put out a law about allowing this practice or showing support for that practice.

I hold people accountable for their own behavior, not other people's. With so much to be done, spending hours arguing with each other should be the farthest thing from our minds.

If I have to hide threads, I might as well find a better place than DU.

[MADem]

62. No. If the guy associated himself in ANY WAY with a minister who chops off little girls' lady

business, the guy should be voted out of office resoundingly.

There's no excuse for even tolerating a person with those beliefs. By associating with the mutilating cleric, Ellison, in this fictional scenario, is CONDONING the man's views.

My attitude stands. I'd be all over ELLISON like a cheap suit. If you do hold people accountable for their behavior, then Ellison associating with a child mutilator is something to call him to account over (poor guy, and he's innocent of anything, I hope no one takes this fictional example to heart).

HIDE THREAD is a great tool. What, you expect EVERY THREAD to meet with your approval? That's just silly. It's not going to happen, either.

And DU is at least relatively organized. You're not going to get away from this Warren issue, unless you move to the right. Move far enough, and you'll find that people don't have a problem with the guy. But in the progressive venues, they do.


If there's a topic that does not interest you, use the HIDE THREAD tool to trim the hedge, so you can see the other plants in the garden. That's the purpose of it. I used it to good effect during the Kerry election when everyone was squawking about something I can't even remember, ad infinitum. It enabled me to stick to the topics I was interested in without getting bogged down.

Try it. You might like it.

[Two Americas]

36. what "other things?"

What is more important than justice and equality?

What is more important than standing up to the religious right?

What is more important than the infiltration of ideas from the religious right into our community?

What is more important than the tendency to see each "issue" as discrete and separate, and to fail to build any solidarity here?

What is more important than Democratic politicians moving to the right, and pandering to the right wing?

What is more important than one group of people here being isolated and marginalized and thrown to the wolves for the sake of some imaginary greater cause?

[Tigress DEM]

45. Oh, the weather, as in global warming.

You can't get much justice and equality if the oceans rise up and flood California.


What is more important than standing up to the religious right? Knowing who you are and who we are and realizing we aren't the rw.

What is more important than the infiltration of ideas from the religious right into our community?

Realizing that Burning DUers at the stake as right wingers without cause makes for very hypocritical conversation by people looking for equality and solidarity.

What is more important than the tendency to see each "issue" as discrete and separate, and to fail to build any solidarity here?
Dealing with one issue at a time doesn't mean all won't be dealt with or all aren't equally important. Solidarity can't happen when you are attacking your own people. I'm suggesting a breather and a return to constructive suggestions for making things better and I can feel the wood under my feet and see the torches coming. How is that approach building any solidarity? I say I'm with you, but I'm not talking about that topic until it can be done so in a civil manner and now I'm an enemy?

What is more important than Democratic politicians moving to the right, and pandering to the right wing?Everybody working together and never losing site of all our goals.

What is more important than one group of people here being isolated and marginalized and thrown to the wolves for the sake of some imaginary greater cause?
NO ONE is giving up on equal rights. If one is oppressed, all are oppressed. But honestly,there is NO "imaginary greater cause" there are LOTS of issues to deal with in addition to this one. *ush has left us with a country that is like a car that has been stripped. We still have most of the motor, but our wheels are gone and the radiator too, among other things. The car isn't going to move forward until ALL of the major items are fixed. But if the damm thing is on fire, put the fire out first. I am not so vain to believe that any cause of mine, even life or death issues, is more important that the whole cause. Can't you see that solidarity is about ALL of us getting there and people don't want to leave you behind, they just need your help in other areas as well.

[Two Americas]

47. other way around

The root cause of global warming is injustice and economic inequality. Taking a stand anywhere strengthens us everywhere. we cannot fight global warming if we do not take stands for justice and equality.

I don't agree that DUers are being "burned at the stake." Pointing out and disagreeing with right wing ideas is not contradictory to building solidarity - far from it.

I don't agree that "constructive suggestions" are what are needed, and I think that is often a smokescreen for advocating a conservative approach and for trivializing and minimizing the struggle and the dangers. I posted a "constructive suggestion" based on something I did - I went into a fundy church on Christmas Eve and said the exact same things there to 300 Warren admirers that I say here on the Warren issue. I encountered less resistance there than I do here. I can't help but notice that. My "constructive suggestion" is the wrong kind though, because it is not pleasant and easy and reassuring and moderate and risk-free and happy.

I don't agree that we need to juggle dozens of discrete and separate causes, and rank them in importance. Seeing things that way weakens and divides us. We fight the same fight against the same enemy in a variety ways, according to the shapes and forms in which we encounter it. That is solidarity.

[Tigress DEM]

49. dupe

[Tigress DEM]

50. What was the constructive suggestion?

I never said anything about ranking things in importance, except if there is an obvious fire.

I said everything needs to be addressed and will be addressed in order to move on - NOT in any particular order. This car - party won't go anywhere without all the components set up.

I can agree with you that we need full civil rights for GLBT but if it takes more time to get that done than other stuff, it just takes more time. I don't think it takes more time because everyone on DU isn't mouthing the same talking points. I think it's just a complex issue and we keep working on it.

AND I was actually asking people who AREN'T in the GLBT community to check themselves, so I don't know how anyone can translate that into stfu GLBT.

I said there is no way we can really understand as completely as we are being asked to and everything we say seems to cause pain, so step back and when someone says, "let's do this," then step in and do because words aren't helping only actions are going to matter.

Peace.

[Two Americas]

69. thanks

First, thanks Tigress DEM for the discussion and for considering my ideas. Much appreciated.

My suggestion was that straights need to go into the lions den and speak out strongly. I did that impulsively the other night when the opportunity arose, as described below. I am convinced that this is what we need to do - take a stand, not compromise; speak out, not be moderate and retiring; be clear, not wishy washy.

I am going to paste an excerpt from a previous post here, if that is OK.

Warren and other leaders of the religious right would like us to believe that they represent millions, all of whom think alike. That is an illusion he creates to dupe everyone. "I represent the Christian community." That is why selecting Warren for the invocation is so destructive, because what that does mostly is reinforce Warren's leadership position - buttress and validate and legitimatize it.

I went to a fundy church on Christmas Eve, a crowd of about 300 rural whites, all Warren admirers (his book has made him a superstar, and many people get email "update" nonsense from him and are networked in) and spoke out against bigotry. (Fortuitously for me, the main pastor was out of town on an emergency, and the congregation was winging it informally - they alternated readings of the story of "the child born in poverty, to outcast, despised unwed parents bringing a message of love" with singing traditional carols. I belted out the bass parts with gusto, and was glad they didn't do any of that swaying emotional crappy modern "Christian" music.)

A member got up and did an ad hoc homily on the theme of being a light in the darkness (living the message of love and compassion and charity in humility as an example to others) rather than presuming to shine a light into the darkness (judging your neighbor and telling them what to do.) Perfect.

Here is what I saw - those people are fearful and worried, they are blue collar working class folks, struggling and wondering if they can keep their jobs and their homes and their farms or shops. They have a sense that things have all gone terribly wrong, and they don't hear our analysis of that, they don't hear what they need to hear to make sense of things. Liberals never go there, strong left wing voices are not heard in the media. Then along comes a self-serving demagogue, like Warren, promising to make sense of it all for them and wrapping it all in a perverted and corrupted religious context. They are extraordinarily vulnerable to the lies and deception of the religious right demagogues. Warren tells them, that yes things have gone wrong and they are not at fault, and that yes things seem overwhelming and hopeless, so we turn to the message of the humble carpenter and use that as a guide for our lives. So far so good, but Warren could never attain power and influence and wealth if he stopped there. He would be a servant rather than master if he practiced what he preached. So he tells them that there is a spiritual war going on between good and evil, and then identifies the ones on the side of evil by pandering to people's fears and prejudice. "Stick with me" he says (buy my books, send money, get my newsletter) "and we will fight back against the evil together." Big fucking cynical manipulative deceitful lie right there.

I got a good response to what I had to say about homophobia and bigotry, some tearing up and people shaking my hand and hugging me afterward, and I hope a lot of people are thinking things over now. There is at least just a little crack in the armor.

This is no big deal, I am not trying to say I did any great thing here at all. I am relating the story mostly for the benefit of other straights. I think we need to speak out, and I think it is a lot easier for straights to do this.

[1776Forever]

67. I am right with you MADem! Putting that last bit in is like saying Shut Up & go away!

No voice should be drowned out by exclusion by another! It is a free country and DU is a place where all voices should be free to be heard! Some on DU just don't get the BIG picture of what this choice of Rick Warren involves and are only looking at it from one side. There are many many sides to this issue and no one is saying the President-elect Obama knows all the issues that have been brought up within the last two weeks. He has said he doesn't want "yes" people around him, so let's be more understanding and try to learn why so many have such a fierce disapproval of this man!

[EFerrari]

22. I'm not done talking about Warren. n/t

[Tigress DEM]

28. That's fine.

I'm just hoping to elicit how many people on DU actually support GLBT so that we can establish that as fact and move on.

You probably have other things you talk about as well, and what I said was about balance, not censor. Taking a break to get perspective, not giving up on the issue.

[Clio the Leo]

27. "blacks looked at any white person as a potential enemy."

I agree with the overall sentiment of your post, but I dont know that that particular sentence is entirely accurate. One of the biggest forms of resistance those in the Civil Rights movement faced was from members of the black community. Conversely, they were surrounded by white men and women who were helping them.

It's one of those weird ironies of history.


And of course comparing an argument on an internet forum to an actual lynching is a bit of hyperbole, but you knew that didn't you. ;)

That's all I wanted to say ..... carry on. :)

[Tigress DEM]

31. That's why it was important for whites to step up and stand apart from the real enemies.

Since the KKK wore hoods and played the daytime game of being such "good citizens" and because it was often hard to tell ignorant white people from those who really meant harm until someone either stood with you or came at you, there was a caution and misunderstandings could easily happen.

Well, during that time, anyone who wasn't making a positive stand was probably hard to read. AND when being a black wanting your rights meant potentially being murdered, I can see how some would hang back and not want to make a fuss. No one should have had to face that choice.

[Clio the Leo]

38. The overwhelming number of whites in the south ....

.... were not the ones who were doing the lynching. De La Beckwith, Thom Blanton etc. were considered to be thugs then and were on the fringe of society. The KKK was never held in high esteem like Hollywood likes to make out and rarely was it a secret as to who was in the KKK and who wasnt. They weren't hiding themselves under hoods to protect their idenity, they were hiding to conceal what they were doing. My great grandfather was the grand dragon (leader of the entire state) and after returning to Tennessee in his later years (he had fled the state after killing a man in a bar fight in his 20s, a real winner huh?) he felt the need to disguise himself (by hiding in the back of the car) lest anyone realize who he was. He was considered a criminal and any "decent" white person would have at the very least, shunned him or possibly even locked him up.

The south was populated by blacks and whites who had worked out, over hundreds of years, a system where they could co-exist together. It wasn't right ... but it worked. This is why the NAACP and SNCC met with such resistance from both sides and why many of those who fought in the movemnet, esp. the younger ones, were from the North. John Lewis' mother wrote him a long letter during the Nashville sit-ins asking him to "please stop, these white people have been so nice to you...."

The question we have to ask ourselves is, what was the greater crime? The lynchings? Or the apathy that allowed them to happen?

I think it has to be the latter and that speaks to your original point. ;)

[Tigress DEM]

46. The apathy for sure. Well, we don't have much of that here.

But being treated as nicely as you please, but still being somebody's property... I'm really glad I grew up after that time. It curdles my blood to think of it.

[robcon]

32. One of those I cannot accept.

"I'm done talking about the Warren deal until it can be one topic of many, but not the only one."

Why should ANY DUer take direction from Tigress DEM (or anyone else) on what topics should be and how much time should be devoted to them?

[Tigress DEM]

60. You and everyone else. Take what you like people, leave the rest.

It was said in love and in reference to checking myself and urging others to do the same in response to a STFU from another post. So I said, I guess I can shut myself up and encourage others not to rub salt in these wounds, but ...


This is just unbelievable.


FINE. I'm gone. I have things to do.

[AntiFascist]

34. Very clever way to hide a STFU

sorry, I'm not done talking about the Warren deal until people understand.

[Tigress DEM]

39. Having it be one topic of many isn't STFU. It's chosing not to pour oil on a gas fire.

This issue is going the way of some thread topics that got banned because they monopolized the entire DU and no one could be reasonable in them. Is that what you want? Is that your goal? Or do you just want to drive people away from DU who don't share your exact viewpoint?

It's MY personal decision, "I'm done talking about the Warren deal until it can be one topic of many, but not the only one." Others would be wise to do the same because the more it's talked about the more it becomes a perceptual rift that probably doesn't actually exist IRL for people on DU but only in the misunderstandings caused by chain reactions in these posts.

NO ONE on DU except rw lurkers and trolls are against equal rights for the GLBT community.

[noamnety]

40. People are trying to tell you how they feel about that line being included.

and you are being dismissive instead of listening to them.

"Don't argue with the GLBT Community and tell them how they "Should" feel."

[Tigress DEM]

51. I hear what is being said, but it's being misunderstood.

I gave additional information to make sure people know what I actually meant and that it was actually done per request of a GBLT OP anyway. I'm backing off personally and suggesting people check themselves.

I can see why people took it the way they did, but I never said anyone in the GLBT community shouldn't talk about it, just that we need to not attack each other and have to watch that behavior very carefully in this instance because it's been a real hard time for the GLBT community and it seems to me it's potentially a way for there to become a big rift.

This form of dialog has it's limitations and it has caused permanent rifts for certain causes or individuals and the membership here has dropped, a lot. There may be many reasons for that, but DUers eating their own does cause people to leave. I've seen post after post about people leaving because of it. I myself am considering finding a more productive board. I won't forget the causes, but I don't need to be put down for trying to help.

[AntiFascist]

41. That's where you seem to lack understanding...

It already is a topic "among many" in the broader sense. People who try to marginalize marriage equality don't see it that way.

I refer you to my latest post in the GLBT forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=108670&mesg_id=109797

You need to read through my entire post to understand the point.

[Tigress DEM]

52. Well hopefully, at least people will be more civil in their discussions.

My main thing is I don't like us ripping each other up when we need to work together.

People can say what they mean and mean what they say without being mean.

I'm proud of the GLBT community for standing up for themselves and am usually proud to stand with them, but I'm not the best person for "committee work" that pounds and pounds away until everyone agrees with the same thing. I prefer a general consensus and then hit the road.

I don't like people telling me what I believe any more than you do.

[LostinVA]

44. I didn't catch that until my second read of the OP

[jonnyblitz]

53. they are getting more stealth in their "STFU" posts.nt

[Tigress DEM]

58. I'm telling people to check themselves and be civil. It isn't the same as STFU.

Some people are so eager to be offended, you just can't even breathe without violating their space.

[noamnety]

63. big breath here.

"you just can't even breathe without violating their space." <--- this kind of hyperbole in response to people trying to make a point here, trying to explain to you why they have a problem with a line in your poll, isn't the key to civil or rationale discussion.

I wish you'd try to make an effort to understand why people are interpreting it that way, and less effort feeling defensive, because really people aren't so much attacking you as a person as they are saying "this one line here is following a DU pattern of offensive behavior to us and this is why."

[Political Tiger]

68. You are not alone Tigress Dem

There's a certain (small, but vocal) group of people who for some reason are determined to play the victim. If you don't agree with them 100%, suddenly you are telling them to "STFU." It goes from one person supposedly telling them to "STFU" to suddenly the whole of DU telling them to "STFU." It doesn't matter what you say, they have already decided, even before they read what you have to say, that what you really are doing is telling them to "STFU."

They constantly break the rules of DU, the same ones the rest of us abide by, and when their posts get locked or deleted suddenly it's because the moderators are against them.

Everybody is against them! Everybody is out to get them!

They've played this victim card so much that the result is that they have become parodies of themselves.

I've started putting the bellyachers on ignore, and hiding the 'pity poor me' threads because you simply can't reason with them. They only want sympathy. They are not interested in discussion or civility. Only pity.

[Bobbie Jo]

64. Who are "they?"

:wtf:

[LostinVA]

72. Wrapped in a pretty package

[Tigress DEM]

56. This only proves my point. Nothing can be said on this subject that doesn't flame.

If I didn't have an extreme sense of justice and fair play,
If I didn't have GLBT people I dearly love,
If I didn't believe in Democracy...

I would say this is a lost cause, trying to have a sane and rational dialog on this firey issue.

But YOU CAN THINK YOU KNOW ME AND WHAT I'M ABOUT and YOU CAN JUDGE ME ALL YOU WANT.

I may leave DU, but I won't be the one marginalizing other people because they don't perfectly agree with everything I believe.

[Two Americas]

70. I don't think so Tigress DEM

There have been some of the best discussions ever at DU on this subject. We definitely can have a sane and rational dialog on this fiery issue.

You are not being marginalized, nor judged. Also, isn't it you who are the one whom is upset because people "don't perfectly agree with everything you believe?"

[TexasObserver]

59. Your poll is badly flawed by this statement: "I'm done talking about the Warren deal"

Which means that your results are flawed.

People who agree with only 3 of your 4 listed points cannot agree with your poll.

Your poll is dishonest in its formulation, an attempt to diminish the Warren issue. Try ignoring the threads that discuss Warren, if you can't be more open minded about why it is a problem for many.

[Tigress DEM]

61. It may be flawed, but it isn't intentionally dishonest.

I'm not even talking about the Warren issue except to say, don't chime in if you can't be civil and everyone is busting my chops.

I am open minded - to constructive suggestion and new information.

I just don't like people going in and telling gays how they feel and everyone here is equating that to STFU to the gay community. Un fucking real.

[TexasObserver]

66. INTENT is determined not by what you say in defense of your dishonesty, but by the very act itself.

When one attempts to create a false choice, as you did, it's dishonest. Your attempt to justify it doesn't change that. Here's what you have said: "I support GLBT issues, but I wish people would just STFU about Rick Warren." If you had not said that, you wouldn't be catching flak now, flak you deserve to catch.

[BeFree]

65. Problem

When the KKK strung up blacks for no reason except the color of their skin, blacks looked at any white person as a potential enemy. Our GLBT community feels simularly strung up and abandoned first with Prop 8 and now with Warren.

Comparing the blacks with the GLBT as you did, is an enormous problem.

The GLBT are not being 'strung up' like blacks were, so that comparison is horrendous.
And to say that blacks looked at any white person as an enemy is f'n plain wrong.

As if that's not bad enough, you are saying that straights are looked at by gays as enemies. Gawd!

[Fire1]

71. Absolutely!

[Adsos Letter]

73. Agreed!

:thumbsup:

[EstimatedProphet]

74. I agree

there is one point that too many people here miss: who has the right to tell other people how to feel? If GLBT posters feel betrayed, who has the authority to tell them they shouldn't?