If you wanted a liberal version of President Bush, you voted for the wrong man.

[SidneyCarton]

President Obama is not a maniacal narcissist, he is a pragmatist. He will try to work with the Republicans, and will work around them only if he has to. Remember his inaugural speech? He is trying to prove government works, hence unlike his predecessor he is not governing, to wreck (which does not require much in the way of consensus) but attempting to actually govern the country, it will not be some glorious steamroller, we need to get used to it.

[MNDemNY]

1. I do not have to like it, nor do I have to sit silently.

I want the steam-roller, and I want it now.

[Freddie Stubbs]

3. You may want it, but you are not going to get it

[SidneyCarton]

4. Might I suggest Beijing, Pyongyang or Moscow then,

These governments all act with blatant disregard for opposition.

You do not have to sit silently, but you would do well to consider that you live in a democracy, and people have the right to be fools, even elected fools. President Obama's respect for the Constitution and our traditions of democratic rule are refreshing to those of us who saw a gimcrack dictator in the oval office for the last 8 years.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SidneyCarton]

12. Thank you for your courteous reply

Such maturity speaks volumes about your political acumen.

[MNDemNY]

17. Befitting of your fascist response.

[SidneyCarton]

Fascist?

How interesting coming from the poster who advocates "steamrolling" the opposition and disregarding any values save those which characterize a narrow base. but for your edification, mein fuehrer, I merely meant to illustrate that the total disregard for opposition characterizes a form of government inimical to that of our nation. Might I suggest a switch to decaf, you seem a bit reactionary.

[MNDemNY]

30. Why on earth should policies long-proven not to work be considered?

This is not a Democracy, elections have consequences, this one was a big one, it should have big consequences. Our elected officials have been put there to solve the nations problems, not play kissy-face with the losers. The public screamed for a bold change, let's now be bold, and change. Baby steps get us no-where.....And inviting one who disagrees with you to leave the USA, is about as fascist as it gets.

[SidneyCarton]

33. "This is not a democracy"???

Fair enough it's a Republic, but do you even understand what you're saying? I did not rid myself of one dictator just so I could now hold the whip. I'm sorry that you feel differently about this.

[MNDemNY]

36. So you are saying that we must include policies that are proven not to work,

just for the sake of acrimony? That is silly.

[SidneyCarton]

38. "Politics is the art of the possible"

That includes compromise. Ideology is seeing the world as you think it ought to be, hence it is the "art of the impossible." I will settle for "silly improvement" then the purity of endless bloviating and outrage.

[MNDemNY]

42. Should one "compromise" with the truth?

[SidneyCarton]

45. What is Truth?

Ask a Mormon, a Buddhist, a Muslim and a Fundy and you will get various answers.

A follower of Heidegger, one of Kant and one of Derrida will all have their own ideas too.

Your "truth" may not be my truth, nor are either of our "truths" necessarily President Obama's truth. Furthermore, the Republicans are a fact on the ground, as much as we might like to govern like they are not there (and to some degree that is possible in the House) they're not going away, and their version of truth, (vicious, asinine and delusional as it might be) must still be reckoned with.

It's not always what is so, but what people believe is so that must be dealt with.

[MNDemNY]

57. Your religious citations are idiotic, as all are lies., But for this argument...

the truth is.... TAX CUTS DO NOT STIMULATE THE ECONOMY> GOVERNMENT SPENDING DOES STIMULATE THE ECONOMY.

[SidneyCarton]

And there is no spending in this bill?

Your tolerance for dissenting viewpoints astounds me. It is no suprise to me that you think religious beliefs idiotic, after all anyone who wouldn't admit that you are the fount of absolute truth must be wrong right?

[MNDemNY]

65. Do you also argue for Holocaust deniers?

By your logic it would be OK to deny it about half way. Right?

[SidneyCarton]

68. Straw man.

n/t

[MNDemNY]

71. Maybe, but I don't think you could knock it down.

It's your logic. I'll ask you as well, Should we show consideration to the "opposition" when it comes to torture, and the Constitution?? Or is that another straw man?

[SidneyCarton]

78. One always can tell then the bottom of the GDP barrel has been scraped

Because it comes down to the Holocaust. How the hell did we go from tax cuts to genocide? Never mind, it's not worth the review, in essence you have inflated the compromise over tax cuts into the likelihood that President Obama will advocate for the continuance of torture, the shredding of the Constitution, and justification of genocide. :eyes:

The position of the Administration on those issues is clear, made through Executive Order without consultation of the Republicans. There are obviously issues that do not brook discussion. Those who would deny the holocaust are either delusional or malignant, as are those who continue to advocate the use of torture. That said, it is the right and privelidge of the House of Representatives to determine the fiscal policy of the United States (in the Constitution, fascinating huh?) and therefore it would behoove any President who was interested in restoring constitutional order in our nation to discuss such an issue with members of both parties.

Furthermore, you have consistently overlooked the main point of all of this, which is to de-polarize the functioning of government. To turn government policy into something more than a mere extension of the party platform. I'm sorry that you don't see this, I'm sorry that you have become so bitter and spiteful in your partisan polarization that you don't realize that the only way we will achieve a return to civil government in this nation is through mutual respect. Surely it will not come through men like Boehner, but there are decent people who are in the Republican party, and they will be influenced, and the ideologues of the right will be marginalized. That is the goal.

[Odin2005]

87. The point of politics is that people don't agree what the "truth" is.

The problem with your mindset is that the other side thinks exactly the same thing, that their BS is the truth and you are wrong. If nobody ever compromised democracy would not exist, instead people would kill each other and the winner establishes a totalitarian state. Your mindset is that of a totalitarian.

[cali]

26. well, I actually like your little tantrum and your totalitarian

crap. most amusing, darling.

[Occam Bandage]

28. The irony just drips from this post, given your "fuck the opposition" attitude. nt

[MNDemNY]

34. No, not "fuck the opposition" Fuck the proven not-to-work-policies.

There should be no room for them. They do not, and will not work. One should not accommodate lies and deceit.

[Occam Bandage]

66. The two aren't the same, and you hold both. nt

[Laelth]

81. I agree wholeheartedly.

But I think Obama will be a steamroller, regardless ... one that listens politely to the asphalt and then runs over it (legally) if it won't cooperate.

:dem:

-Laelth

[TheWraith]

22. And I want a pony.

That doesn't mean I'm going to get one.

[Zynx]

24. I don't want to see the whole aparatus of government turned political again.

That was extremely destructive.

[SidneyCarton]

29. Absolutely.

This is not about seizing the government to abuse the other side because its our turn, its about making the it work again. Such activity is rarely emotionally enjoyable, but it has excellent long term effects.

[BlueCaliDem]

47. I understand how you feel, but Pres. Obama is going to work for the greater good

and isn't that enough? Why antagonize if you can get the same result with diplomacy? :hi:

[cottonseed]

2. You mean he's not landing on an aircraft carier stating Mission Accomplished?

It's wild reading posts all day wanting Obama to steamroll this and cram that down. This is exactly what we wanted to get rid of:

1. do we want him in a flight suit?
2. do we want him saying WMD are north south east and west?
3. do we want him writing checks on the house floor?
4. do we want him making midnight shiavo flights?
5. do we want him telling leaders to go f**k themselves?

Well, maybe #5 wouldn't be so bad, but seriously. We wanted to elevate the discourse. Even if the Republicans are still scum atleast the discourse between the citizenry, other nations, and leadership in Washington has been elevated. That's what I wanted and I'm patient, and watching.

[SidneyCarton]

5. Exactly.

We wanted a return to democracy, with all its messy problems, we got it. Most of us did not want to replace one "Imperial Presidency" with another.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

6. I agree...

Also, by using the tactics he is using, he is taking the high road.

This is something we haven't seen in a long time, if ever, and it is an excellent way to govern.

I have no problem getting used to it...I actually respect it!

Taking, and keeping, the moral high ground is very smart, IMHO...

[liberalmuse]

7. Well, there does come a time when you have to stop throwing pearls at swine.

I'm glad President Obama wants to reach out, but if they keep repeatedly biting his hand, it's time to either give them a rabies shot, or stop reaching out.

[Occam Bandage]

9. He's not reaching out to Republican legislators. He's reaching out to center-right voters.

The first is folly. The second is collapsing the enemy's base.

[leftstreet]

10. Someone should tell him the 'center-right' voters already voted for him

Unless I missed something

[Occam Bandage]

11. Many of them did. By offering a few overtures to the Republicans, he ensures

that the obstructionist, posturing Republicans will come off looking less and less appealing to the center-right portion of the electorate, and that Obama comes off looking better and better. It's not about winning the 2008 election any more; it's about realigning the nation's politics for the long term.

[SidneyCarton]

16. Precisely, this is about marginalizing the right, for the long term.

[leftstreet]

18. Actually no. It gives the Repubs air time for their talking points

Center-righters can hear the Repubs bitch about (what are obviously) complicated issues, but the fiscal talking points get out there all the same.

[Occam Bandage]

27. They'd have the same air time regardless. By offering a few minor but hyped compromises

in a bill that is otherwise astoundingly liberal (Expanding medicaid to people on unemployment? Massively increasing federal funding for education? Wow) he makes it look less like the Republicans offering a principled opposition, and more like they're being obstructionist, politics-playing jackasses.

The number of DUers who believe that the bill is "watered down" is proof positive that his strategy is working. The package now looks like a compromise bill--and the Republicans therefore like petty children--when the package is actually quite brazenly liberal.

[leftstreet]

31. Looks like the goal is to make us believe there's viable opposition

Which, of course, is not true.

Although as a Ruling Class strategy, it's uh...consistent.

[SidneyCarton]

37. So they're just different sides to the same coin?

I can never understand the advocacy of the politics of despair on this board. If it's all a scam and a sham, then why bother? Even if my hope is vain, LET ME HAVE HOPE, the alternative is the glass of hemlock.

[leftstreet]

44. Well, Socrates was his own executioner

It's not like he didn't know what was in the Kool-Aid

[SidneyCarton]

46. True enough

And he did get to give one hell of a going away speech.

[Odin2005]

88. Too many people here have drunk Marxist "liberal democracy is a capitalist stunt" kool-aid.

Many on the Extreme Left refuse to participate in electoral politics because "it just legitimizes the system". :eyes:

[Occam Bandage]

61. Evel Knievel would be impressed with that leap. nt

[MNDemNY]

13. Reaching out, by

including useless, and harmful tax-cuts, that do nothing to stimulate the economy (as has been proven in the last eight years) is just plain wrong. Should we alter science so as to "reach out" to the flat-earthers and the global warming deniers as well?? Tax cuts do not work, and if they were included to bring along Republofuck support, they did not do that either.

[SidneyCarton]

15. No, we should settle for the gridlock of the past 30 years...

Or better yet, have a civil war and purge the unclean. :eyes:

[MNDemNY]

23. Good move, let's just use HALF of the stupid policies that got us here.

That will help, we don't want to hurt anyones wittle feelings. Half-assed solutions are always best.

[SidneyCarton]

25. It must be nice in that Republic of 1 in which you live...

I'd visit, but I fear I'd be imprisoned for disagreement.

[TTUBatfan2008]

19. They aren't business tax cuts...

They are middle class tax cuts. You have a problem with him trying to help the middle class? The Republicans want tax cuts for capital gains, etc. but that is not what he included in the bill.

[MNDemNY]

39. No, you are wrong there are business tax cuts, plenty of them.

AND the Bush tax cuts STAY.(And some (many) of those are capital gains tax cuts.) Try again?

[TTUBatfan2008]

48. Obama has said he's going to let the Bush tax cuts expire...

Care to try again?

[SidneyCarton]

49. This is more along his ways of operating, conservation of political energy

Much easier to let them die than to abolish them.

[MNDemNY]

52. Your dreaming.

The window for "real" change is about 10-14 months, after that it is all political. Any "hard" choice not made by then, will not be made. So sit on your hands and nothing will change....all you will have left is "hope", you know, the dregs of Pandora's box.

[SidneyCarton]

54. Justify your math, 10-14 months?

And how do you function with such relentless negativity and pessimism?

[Raineyb]

83. Because in 10-14 months the excuse for not doing anything wil be the midterm elections n/t

Regards

[Raineyb]

82. Expire is not exactly the same as recinding

Which is what will actually help the economy those tax cuts are a huge part of why the economy is in the shitter in the first place. Unless you think that continuing to skew tax cuts to people who don't need them is the best way to fix this economy.

Regards

[olegramps]

84. He seems to have said that he would recind the tax cuts and then he said he would let them expire.

That is to the best of my memory.

[Occam Bandage]

20. The types of tax cuts he is including are not the types of tax cuts Bush passed.

Obama's tax cuts are aimed at the working class, the middle class, and at encouraging employment, and all have a proven positive effect. Not as great as other types of stimulus, of course, but a net positive effect regardless.

And they weren't designed to bring along Republican support. They were designed to make the Republicans look petty and obstructionist. Which they are.

[MNDemNY]

41. What of the Bush tax cuts? This bill does NOT end them.

And there are many very Bush-like tax cuts included, many for large corps. Read the bill.

[SidneyCarton]

43. Was it ever intended to?

Is this a broken promise, or does this bill fall short of expectations?

Consider for a moment, the economy is a mess and certain emergency measures need taking now. The Bush Tax Cuts will have to go, but there will be holy hell getting rid of them, and putting them in the stimulus package is akin to a poison pill. They need to go, and your advocacy for their abolition is both noble and necessary, but they will probably need a bill all their own in order to pass.

[MNDemNY]

51. This seems as though it will pass without R support, so what is the "poison"?

And " any" tax cuts, no matter how noble, have no place in this bill. Those should also be handled separately.

[SidneyCarton]

56. Maybe in the House, not likely in the Senate.

60 votes, remember?

[MNDemNY]

60. "nuclear option," remember?

[SidneyCarton]

64. Do you think Reid has the cojones to try that?

If so, which of us is really dreaming?

[MNDemNY]

67. You will be fine...

you expect and will embrace no change at all. Good for you, must be nice to live in such a tepid world.

[SidneyCarton]

70. Or perhaps I merely realize that there are other points of view in this world than mine

And I achieve more by respecting their existence and dialoguing with them, then dismissing all who disagree with me as fools and berating and belittling them. It must be nice to live in a one man utopia, lonely but nice. At the very least you can be assured that none will dare argue with you.

As for change, had President Obama done what you demand, I would have welcomed it as well, my threshold for acceptable change is lower than yours. Perhaps that makes me tepid, perhaps that makes me realistic.

[MNDemNY]

73. Tepid... comfortably numb.

[Occam Bandage]

63. Nor is it supposed to. If you're complaining that a stimulus bill doesn't raise taxes,

you're just looking for things to complain about.

[MNDemNY]

69. Must we also embrace the opposition on such issues as torture? The Constitution?

[SidneyCarton]

72. I don't know, looking at your posts from above...

It would seem that the Constitution is an obstacle to the policies you want emplaced, and that perhaps we would do better if we merely waterboarded all the Republicans in the legislature while sending their families to Guantanamo. After all, that would "steamroll" them effectively, wouldn't it. President Obama is following the Constitution, authoritarian fantasies are entertaining, but they are dangerous as well.

[MNDemNY]

75. Waterboard them?? No, just don't coddle them for thier vote that we do NOT need.

[Occam Bandage]

74. Nope. But complaining that a stimulus bill doesn't raise taxes is like complaining

that a stimulus bill doesn't include harsher penalties for torture. Not the place.

[MNDemNY]

76. You know that is nothing akin to what I said.

But I remember you and your O falating ways.

[Occam Bandage]

77. Falating? Are you series? If that asparagus is true, it would make me a hugh moran. nt

[SidneyCarton]

79. Hugh Moran is a great poster, so you are in good company.

[olegramps]

85. What I heard from the political commentators that Obama agreed to the tax cuts to get Republican

support for the stimulous package. Then he agreed to take out the family planning assistance. Sorry, but I am inclined to agree with Kerry. Then every Republican voted against the legislation. To hell with them.

[ipfilter]

50. Exactly,

46% of the population voted for McCain/Palin. Obama won't win over those people by steamrolling the opposition. He can play the nice cop with the Republican minority because at the end of the day they don't have enough votes to do jack-shit anyway. He knows it and they know it.

This is a big gamble from both sides. If the stimulus does not work as intended Obama and the Democrat agenda will look bad. If it does work the Republicans will look foolish for not supporting it. To the victor goes the spoils. Lets just hope we are victorious in the long run.

[SidneyCarton]

14. Agreed, his next moves should be interesting.

If he repeatedly makes this mistake, I will argue that he is being duped, but for the moment it seems that he might be trying something different.

[mvd]

21. Now President Obama can say he tried

If the Repukes won't cooperate, then they look bad and not Obama. Also, Obama stood firm on the basic details of the plan.

[Alcibiades]

55. We have a winner!

That's exactly what he's doing. What's so surprising is how quickly the Republicans fell for it!

Obama can govern without them. Especially in the House.

[mvd]

32. It is good that Obama is keeping his campaign promise of..

bipartisanship. By reaching out, it is possible he could appeal to the few moderates left in the Repuke Party while making the majority of the party look like the extremists they are. Even the moderates in that party are pretty much tools of the corporations and rich, though, so if they continue to vote as a bloc, then the President shouldn't go back for more.

[Radical Activist]

35. Some people apparently like what Newt Gingrich did to Washington

and want Obama to continue the bitter polarization. I don't believe that has benefited anyone.

[SidneyCarton]

40. They either like it, or they have forgotten anything else.

I particularly fear for my generation (I was 12 in 1994) who have grown up basically expecting governing to be "screw and screw alike." Obama setting this example is necessary not only for us, but for generations to come, that government is more than getting your own.

[mvd]

59. Yes, I definitely agree to an extent

I do think that the Repuke Party in general is too far gone right now, though, so I think that the goal throwing a few bones should be to soften up opposition from some so we can move forward rather than to give many concessions. Especially since Obama has a mandate. If we were dealing with a sane Repuke party, we could do more. As is, I think they will have to be shut out if they take advantage of the kindness.

[MNDemNY]

53. Tell Senator Kerry.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8151414

[SidneyCarton]

58. Thanks for directing traffic to my post.

Senator Kerry will have enough problems of his own in the Senate.

[MNDemNY]

62. No prob.

[noiretextatique]

80. actually, i think we will see a glorius steamroller

republicans are showing that their role will be that of obstructionists to obama's governance. if they continue on that path, they will make themselves irrelevant. let the steamrolling commence.

[olegramps]

86. Some talk as if stimulus package is a slam dunk success.

Who the hell knows if this is going to work or not? The Republicans are taking their cue from Rush Limbaugh and they are counting on it's failure. I agree that tax cuts will not stimulate the economy at this time. But there is no guarantee that this will stop a world wide depression and we may not be able to do a lot about it. The markets have become a play thing for speculators to manipulate. The oil run up was nothing more than market speculation and the present markets are in the same situation. Run it up one day and sell the next.

[Odin2005]

89. The totalitarian "agree with me or die" BS in this thread is sickening.

This is why I was an early supporter of Obama. So-called "progressives" that act like left-wing versions of the neo-cons are part of the problem. You screaming totalitarian whiners are an disgrace to Liberalism, the Democratic Party, and to this country.