OK, Barack. What's the problem with Buy American?

[AndyA]

Haven't we supported other countries long enough?

We've shipped our manufacturing overseas by the millions.

Our jobs followed manufacturing.

We get cheap crap that is sometimes unsafe in return.

And now that our economy is in desperate times, we can't say American made goods, which produce American jobs, that pay American taxes is a priority?

WTF are you thinking, Barack? America should be YOUR priority as well. We've given up enough for too long for the benefit of others. Now it's time to put America back to work. We can't do that by doing the same thing we've been doing. Change...remember that?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29003123/

(Edit to add link to story.)

[asdjrocky]

1. Some people say it could cause trade wars.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[butterfly77]

2. Do the Dems never talk to each other...

seems as though they are scattered in every direction. We need some new people or nothing will ever get done..

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

3. Two words: Smoot Hawley.

[Raine1967]

8. Yes that is a concern... but what about this?

What if the 'Buy American' provision was directed stimulus recipients working on public/gov't projects. Is that a fair balance to Smoot-Hawley fears?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. It would have to be a bit more narrowly tailored than it currently is

But sure, that could work if done properly. However, we'll still get some blowback - remember, half the countries retaliated against Smoot Hawley before it was even passed.

[Raine1967]

24. How much more Narrow could it be?

Not to pick hairs.. but is a company is getting relief from the stimulous....

Why not require that they buy American?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

39. How the Senate did it last night qualifies.

Just the stipulation that it doesn't affect standing trade agreements suffices. There will still likely be SOME retaliation, but it won't be catastrophic, and, at least in my opinion, we would still have a net gain.

[ddeclue]

22. One word: Irrelevant...

The problem is that we don't have fair trade, we only have "free" trade which is a euphemism for slave labor and exploitation of the environment in these foreign countries that you want us to trade with.

Until these countries are willing to do as well or better than the US in labor, safety and environmental laws we should taxe the hell out of these blood-products to make it unprofitable for these greed heads to screw BOTH American workers/consumers AND foreign workers.

Doug D.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

40. Ask your local liberal economist why that wouldn't work.

I'd explain, but I'm not an economist and I wouldn't do it justice. I know just enough to know that those kinds of policies would be outstandingly bad for American workers AND consumers. I'm sorry that I'm ill equipped to elaborate.

[girl gone mad]

34. Completely irrelevant.

Our current economic climate doesn't even vaguely resemble the USA of the 1930s.

You might as well be using the collapse of the Roman civilization to make your case.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

36. You know, when there are many, many liberal economists that say the same thing I do...

I'm sure not going to listen to you and not them.

[Hawkowl]

43. Actually you are completely wrong

Liberal economists do not agree that Smoot Hawley had any significant effect on the Great Depression. This has been well debunked here on DU. If you need further reference, try one of Thom Hartmann's books.

Tariffs have been used to build the worlds great economies since the birth of the industrial revolution in Great Britain in the 18th Century. Some of the best examples of tariffs to build economic powerhouses ("protectionism") of the 20th century are Japan, South Korea, and China. Before the income tax in the US (which had to passed by constitutional amendment as it was explicitly prohibited by the founding fathers), the entire federal government was financed by tariffs.

The whole theory of free trade is flat out WRONG. It is based on an antiquated 18th century theory of "comparative advantage" posited by David Ricardo. It probably made sense in the early 1800's but makes absolutely no sense in the era of multinational corporations, effortless mobility of capital and the concept of one world market and global economy.

Do not just parrot theories you do not understand.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

46. Pardon me, but you'll have to cite something.

Thom Hartmann - not an economist. His area of expertise does not even touch economics, nor does it include labor policy. In fact, he might be an authority on ADD, and then there's really nothing in his background to suggest he has any more command over the topic than you or I. So please, cite an actual liberal economist. I'm not finding a single one on my own.

I am, however, finding Robert Reich's comment here: "Congressman Smoot and Congressman Hawley, who wanted to protect the market from foreign competition. Well, if you protect the market from foreign competition you are also reducing sales by American businesses abroad. You are increasing prices to all Americans of everything they purchase abroad. You couldn't do anything worse than the Smoot-Hawley Tariff. Well, you throw in the Smoot-Hawley Tariff, you throw in all of the other backward policies that Herbert Hoover actually concocted because again that was the conventional wisdom at the time and you turned a bad situation into a real full fledged depression."

Furthermore, there's a stark difference between normal tariffs and protectionist tariffs. Normal tariffs are already in place in most countries, including our own. Protectionist tariffs are exorbitantly high for the implicit purpose of ceasing trade between nations.

[Ioo]

4. Ummm, we don't make anything anymore... that is what

We make very few final products... we export movies and raw goods. Oh and chicken.

[tomreedtoon]

35. And what little we make is CRAP.

Especially the movies. Who would want to watch something like Space Buddies or Paul Blart, Mall Cop in any country where more than 10 percent of the population is literate? (Americans, taught by American teachers, of course fall below that percentage.)

No matter what the UAW apologists say, American cars are Rustmobiles. Don't last long, break down often, hard to get parts for until there are enough wrecked ones to provide used parts. The problem is that the UAW see this as an insult to their work performance, when it's really caused by the bad designs their BOSSES buy. If the UAW had any courage they would have told their bosses to give them better designs to build.

Perhaps these people didn't really mean "Buy American" but "Buy Americans." IBM is trying to outsource our population to India, so we can still work in IT for pennies a day and eat rat-on-a-stick.

[crimsonblue]

It can spark a trade war. n/t

[KakistocracyHater]

51. Iraqi wmds!

Same shhhh. Japan won't import American cds-where's the "TRADE WAR"? They also refuse to import MANY other AMERICAN products, but Reagan gave them our entire(seemingly) electronic sector. Trade War, yeah, whatever.....

[uponit7771]

5. We buy everything from Asia, we don't produce shit...what are we gonna buy from outselves?

[Raine1967]

9. We could buy our own Steel for starters. nt

[WinkyDink]

11. If only Bethlehem Steel still stood, I'd concur.

[JuniperLea]

14. What about Pittsburgh? Or USS?

There are still steel companies in the US.

Edited to say... when the hell did a Russian company buy Pittsburgh Steel? This is getting ridiculous!

[WinkyDink]

17. I live in Bethlehem.

[struggle4progress]

38. Did you not notice what happened in Pittsburgh during the Reagan years?

[JuniperLea]

12. Exactly!

Pittsburgh Steel! And we have a lot of concrete companies left too. I think every project that received money should be forced to either use American made products, or prove that we don't make that particular product anymore.

This whole trade war GOP talking point is as bogus as hell! This is an AMERICAN stimulus package! How can we help anyone else when we are in shambles! Fuck trade wars!

[BootinUp]

29. Some of us still work in factories...

not enough though.

[struggle4progress]

37. Bingo!

[Thrill]

6. Why can't companies just be patriotic and do it without it being written in a bill?

Obama as President has to walk a fine line on this. Can you really afford to piss off China who owns our debt?

What about the Americans who work for companies who do mostly exporting? Do we risk them?

[JuniperLea]

15. Oh, you mean like how all these honest companies...

Paid their execs hefty bonuses with one hand while they took our TARP funds with the other? Those kinds of "honest" companies? If people where honest, we wouldn't have a financial crisis on our hands right now... nor would we have to worry about baby formula or dog food, or whatever the contamination crisis du jour is.

[JuniperLea]

16. China should be please we are trying to take care of our financial situation...

If we don't take care of it, how the hell would China expect us to pay them back?

[Clio the Leo]

7. One of my Canadian friends is highly pissed about it.

According to her, as dependant as we are on Canadian natural resources, how DARE we try to limit steele used for these stimulus projects to US companies only. Blah, blah, blah.

[hileeopnyn8d]

18. There were are few

Canadians here who started threads about it too. I think it was in GD.

[treestar]

23. We are so dominant our actions can affect others

I recall how the rest of the world wanted Obama to win - we have an effect on things that happen in other countries, so they actually care who wins the elections. If they think their economy is going to be affected, they're going to be upset.

[Ganja Ninja]

41. The Canadians don't need to worry.

All the steel and concrete we make is going to take lots of Canadian gas and oil to manufacture. If their economy needs further stimulus they should look to their own government.

[Cali_Democrat]

13. I agree with Obama here

Infrastructure projects should use steel and other resources from companies that provide the lowest cost regardless of whether or not they are American.

Not only will it cost the American tax payer less, but it will also prevent us from violating WTO rules.

The last thing we need right now is a trade war that would be detrimental to our more competitive industries.

[opiate69]

28. Low cost steel?? Baaad idea..

I work for a company that manufactures steel fittings and connectors for wire rope and chain. We sell to rigging shops all over the world.. several of our customers have told me just how reliable Chinese and Japanese chain is.. all of our chain and load-bearing items are tested to twice their required working load limit. When a rigging shop buys a length of anchor chain or wire rope, they cut a lentgh off of it and pull test it.. in most cases, the foreign chain fails before reaching the working load limit.

[nc4bo]

53. Imagine cheaply made steel failing in a nuke plant or in a bridge?

Nice photos and post from '07:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x303261

[Uzybone]

19. "Buy American": sounds like something republicans would propose

I'm with Obama. Protectionism is a bad idea at anytime, a worse idea during a global economic meltdown. This is not the 1950's. We are all in this together.

[ddeclue]

20. Outstanding and absolutely correct!

[treestar]

21. The world economy is messed up, not just the US

And there is such a thing as US exports. Americans work for those companies, too. But it's OK for that group to lose their jobs? Everyone has their own interest in their own job and you can't get away from that.

[AyanEva]

25. IAWTC.

[Thrill]

26. McCain just tried to get it taken out of the stimulus. It FAILED

http://senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=111&session=1&vote=00044

[MadMaddie]

27. I think everyone is looking at this wrong

There are several industries in the US that should be considered part of National Security. Yes I said it.

Farming
Manufacturing - Military products,
Transportation
Infrastructure
Medical Hospitals, Medical Employees
Water Plant
Electrical Plants
Infrastructure
At least 2 Auto companies
Manufacture of internal computer componants
(I did add Infrastructure twice on this list - all of our infrastructure is 50 years or older)
Add more if you want.

But the bottom line is these core industries should be on US soil and manufactured by Americans. The American public let the Repugs hoodwink them into thinking that America could survive on the Service and IT industries and we didn't have to manufacture anything in the US.

Well the US people fell for it and guess what the financial industry crashed, Americans stopped spending, the service industry crashed because Americans stopped spending....we could go on and on..

I bet you if you looked around the world many countries protect their core industries because of national security.

[MellowDem]

30. He knows it's a political shill...

exactly like the example during the primaries, when Clinton and McCain were calling for lowering the gas tax to ease the pain at the pump (snarf), what this policy actually will do is lose American jobs and hurt our overall standard of living.

[craigmatic]

31. buy American only sounds good on paper

If we only bought our own goods we wouldn't have anything. The manufacturing base is overseas and that's where our goods come from. We simply don't make enough to only buy our own goods plus all the other countries are broke so we'd pretty much hurt their economies too and that would hurt our strategic security interests. What do you think would happen in Afganistan if we only used US timber? I'm guessing Canada would say fuck it and leave the same would be simular for other countries.

[The Bakery Wagon]

33. Maybe you can help me with this...

You state: "If we only bought our own goods we wouldn't have anything."

That (producing our own goods and setting tariffs on "luxury" or "outsourced" goods) seemed to work just fine until the first or middle part of the 20th century.

Now, I'm not an economist so maybe you can help me understand why this line of thinking is wrong--

If the United States steel consumers buy steel from US producers, we (the people of the US) get the steel *and* the money. And substitute anything of value for steel, for example shoes or beef or fabric.

But if the US consumers buy steel (or beef etc) from, oh lets say China, we get their steel and they get our money, which can be used to further undercut our own manufacturing base.

Why is this flawed? Shouldn't we buy from ourselves first?

Wouldn't a policy of self sufficiency be a better policy for the people of the US? And why not? If we're self sufficient in everything that we could be self sufficient at, wouldn't that allow a better standard for all US Citizens?

If we had a policy of self sufficiency in energy none of the ugliness in the middle east would be of concern...See Brazil and their gas from sugar cane example...

[craigmatic]

47. historically high tarriffs on foreign goods is what created the robber barons

and not buying foreign goods can make things worse in a depression. All these things have been tried before in the 1890's and they have bad consequences. So what if we buy American made goods in this country. There are 2 problems with it: it won't guarentee that all Americans will buy US goods and it will hurt our exports.

[kwenu]

32. Buy American? That could limit us to prostitutes, liquor and cigarettes.

[OneBlueSky]

42. what does America still make that can be bought? . . . n/t

[AtomicKitten]

44. "Buy American" violates free trade treaties (like that's a bad thing ;) ) n/t

[pampango]

52. Violating treaties is a bad thing. Renegotiating or withdrawing from bad treaties is a good thing.

My impression is that Obama wants to pursue a foreign policy based on diplomacy, negotiations and eventual agreements. Developing a habit of violating our treaties is probably not a good way to instill confidence in our negotiating partners that we will keep our word, once we reach an agreement.

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. What's the problem?

Economic agreements and the possibility of trade wars? Are you aware at all of the volume of exports by American industry? Are you further aware of the very real danger to existing jobs should there be a significant decline in exports due to reciprocal protectionism? Are you aware that there is no acedemic economist who supports the 'Buy American' provisions of the stimulus bill? Have you stopped to wonder why that might be?

[OwnedByFerrets]

48. Are YOU aware that most of the countries we export to have

much higher tariffs than we do?? Snark on.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

49. we ought to start making things that other countries can buy from us!

good quality stuff instead of the Chinese rubbish.

I was pleased to see that my coffee filters were made in the USA and the water. Then I spooned in some coffee from South America (I guess it's from a similar part of the globe).

[inthebrain]

50. Because it's freakin stupid

Every single American Corporation outsources.

We don't make anything here.

And yeah, some foreign companies open up shop here.

This whole buy American crap is nothing more than right wing xenophobic bullshit.

Try supporting labor no matter where it is. That's why the scumbags are outsourcing. They don't respect a persons right to live a life in dignity. They only seek to exploit. The only way to change is to challenge the captitalist system itself. Only by the working classes acting as a collective will we get a better deal.

You're just advancing more right wing bullshit and it doesn't address a workers right to the fruits of their labor. No capitalist has their interest in mind.

[Vinca]

54. I'm the biggest proponent of buy American and hire American,

but in reality, at this point, "buy American" wouldn't work. What if you need a part for something that is only manufactured in China? Until we make goods here, it's not a big deal not to include this in the package. That said, I'd like to see a provision that includes massive tariffs on American companies importing their crap from other countries. They shouldn't be profiting from kicking Americans out of their jobs.