In a "merit pay" system...won't teachers feel like letting their students cheat?

[Louis-Emmanuel]

I know very little about education-related issues, so I am not pretending to be right or to be an expert. But correct my following reasoning if it's not well-founded:

If a merit pay system is instituted, won't teachers feel less compelled to keep students from cheating in their exams? Better grades=$$$, after all. Or am I wrong?

Please enlighten me.

[PBS Poll-435]

1. Some might, most won't

:shrug:

[firedupdem]

2. I'm not sure either but I don't think the merit pay will be just about

better test scores. I thought I read someplace that it will have more to do with teachers taking extra training classes or something like that. I don't care for merit pay systems. I think teachers should have higher salaries from the beginning.

[NYC_SKP]

10. Nothing about tying pay to test scores in his plan, here are excerpts:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8256470&mesg_id=8256509

With a link to the full text.

As you indicate, he's wanting more professional development, more math and science teachers, and identifying and making mentors of highly skilled teachers.

I'm sure he'd use many metrics and not rely on test scores, which we all know are inadequate and unfair measures.

:hi:

[firedupdem]

19. Thanks for this....I knew it wouldn't be all about a test score. n/t

:hi:

[PVnRT]

34. Who's paying for that professional development?

[NYC_SKP]

35. Under the plan, we will.

I'm in a hospital checking in my dad pecking on an iPhone, or I'd add a link or excerpt.

[w4rma]

3. This is a dumb, counter-productive, bean-counter oriented idea. (nt)

[last_texas_dem]

4. That certainly seems like a likely possibility

I generally have a lot of respect for teachers, but would certainly understand the levels of resentment that might lead to such dishonest behavior on their part. How would you like to have your pay (and the assessment of your "merit") essentially based on what students happen to be assigned to your class? Perhaps, as I have heard, Obama's version of "merit pay" will somehow be substantially different from the versions of the idea that I have seen in the past, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[NYC_SKP]

5. Calm Down. Merit pay will not necessarily be tied to test scores.

Obama is in the idea gathering mode, he hasn't offered a concrete proposal yet.

"Obama to discuss teacher merit pay plan"

WASHINGTON
March 10 (UPI) -- U.S. President Barack Obama is facing off with the nation's teachers' unions on merit pay, anathema to the powerful lobby, aides say. In a speech Tuesday before the U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce in Washington, Obama is to propose, among other things, spending additional money to reward effective teachers and weed out those who aren't up to snuff, Politico reported.

Union officials say merit pay causes teachers to compete against each other and is unfair to teachers in disadvantaged areas where efforts to boost student performance can be harder to achieve. His proposal to spend funds to reward effective teachers in up to 150 additional school districts would fulfill a campaign promise that drew boos from National Education Association members, the Washington publication said. But nationwide polls indicate the policy enjoys broad public support.

"He supports improved professional development and mentoring for new and less effective teachers, and will insist on shaping new processes to remove ineffective teachers," a background statement issued by the White House said.

White House aides didn't detail how much Obama would spend on a merit pay program, or how he would remove bad teachers, but money is included in the stimulus package for improved tools to track teacher performance.
"Obama proposes to raise teacher pay through merit based rewards for work above and beyond their positions."

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/03/10/UPI_NewsTrack_TopNews/UPI-65411236688429/

[Bill McBlueState]

16. "for work above and beyond their positions"

That should be a no-brainer. If you're doing more than your job description requires, you should get compensated for it.

[MadHound]

18. I see that you left out the part where Obama states that he'll be tying merit pay

To student achievement. Hmm, what's the most popular(and most ill-considered) way of measuring student achievement? Oh, yeah, more student testing.

[NYC_SKP]

21. There's the fallacy. He's never said test scores would be the sole measure used.

These attacks on Obama and merit pay assume that he'll tie it exclusively to standardized testing, and there is no evidence of that.

None. So the claims are, at best, premature.

An educator knows that you can't assess a student with a single metric, or a single standardized test.

You must look at and assess the Whole Student, and their context, using a combination of tools; portfolio assessments, performance, etc.

Similarly we may assess educators by looking at the Whole Teacher.

He's smarter than that.

[imaginary girl]

6. My husband and I are both educators ...

... and my parents were as well. None of us like merit-pay systems. There are too many variables that aren't considered. Do you compare someone teaching remedial courses with someone teaching advanced courses (For example ...)? It could somewhat depend upon the details, but we've seen lots of systems in secondary schools and higher education and none of them seemed very effective. There are, I think, much better ways to inspire teachers ... funding field trips, professional development grants, creative projects, etc. Most of the teachers I know have wonderful skills, they are just way over worked and underpaid.

[QC]

7. Merit pay is just one of many attempts to bring corporate models into education.

The problem, of course, is that collegial relations work better than competitive ones in this line of work, and so called "merit pay" destroys that sense of collegiality.

As one of my colleagues says, "If you want to make 80% of your faculty bitter and resentful, give 20% of them merit pay.

I hated merit pay when the Republicans were pushing it, and I don't think that having one of our own take up the cause really improves anything.

[Clio the Leo]

8. Money is a powerful motivator.

I work on commission, I know first hand that I FORCE myself to do a better job because I KNOW I will make more money if I do. It seems to be a pretty basic concept.

The President was an educator. His sister is an educator. His mother was an educator (granted it wasn't in a traditional classroom.) What in this are he and I missing that is leading us to think that merit pay is not the best option?

Granted, unlike the President, I'm a heartless, cold blooded predator who will take all of your hard earned money before you realize it. :) Unlike most school teachers, I dont have an altruistic bone in my body.

But I know how much harder people will work when money is on the line. That holds true for almost every field you go do. Sure, there are greedy people who do things they shouldn't because of money, but I believe they're the exception to the rule.

Why do so many of the smart, hard-working kids want to be doctors? It's a shame more of them dont want to be teachers.

[dsc]

11. Given this economic crisis and what helped cause it

you seriously think greedy people doing things they shouldn't do for money is the exception?

[Clio the Leo]

22. Yep. I sure do.

There are millions of Americans who make what is essentially merit pay. They get up, go to work, do what they're supposed to do and dont screw anyone over in the process. If those in the lending industry were TYPICAL of the rest of the country, we'd be living in total anarchy.

[MadHound]

20. And how do you assess how well a teacher is doing?

Base it on student achievement? Good luck with drawing up a test that takes into account all the variables that go into such achievement.

How about we pay teachers for more education. Most states already do that, and all teachers are required to get higher education.

I agree, it's a shame more smart, hard working kids don't want to be teachers. Perhaps if we started paying teachers in the same manner the we compensate lawyers and doctors, we would get more of the best and brightest into the teaching profession. But sadly, even though it's one of the most important jobs out there, we don't want to pay teachers for doing this job.

[Clio the Leo]

24. I understand the problems of standardized testing.

Esp. in regard to how minorities and those on the lower end of the economic scale are sometimes at a disadvantage when compared to white children on the higher end.

But we have ways of assessing how well a student is doing right? It's not an absolute thing. It's not like we simply cannot know if a student is achieving or not achieving. Otherwise why even give tests at all?

How about we raise salaries over all AND offer pay incentives for those who's classes do well on a consistent basis or in a manner that is generally agreed to be deemed a success?

Either way, we're still paying teachers MORE and that's a good thing, right?

[mwooldri]

9. Depends on how merit pay is set up.

I'm for rewarding good teachers and disciplining bad ones. Maybe however some mediocre teachers need an incentive to become good teachers: money can be a good motivator.

Just on test scores alone: naaa... too variable, you got poor schools that are under-resourced and the teacher is basically fighting a battle to sometimes just babysit a class of 30+ "students". Then you have other schools that parents are fighting over getting their kids into. I suppose it could be balanced out by testing the students at the beginning of the year and at the end and seeing the improvement... but then again you have poor schools vs rich schools.

As for teachers letting students teach in exams: it could and it probably does happen in some places. Any sensible school that does testing should have safeguards in place: controlled examinations not conducted by the same teachers that teach the class, or all the students and teachers in one large exam hall. My 16+ and 18+ exams in the UK IIRC even had external invigilators to ensure the examination was fair.

[AllentownJake]

12. Freakonomics had actually a great chapter in the book about that

The answer is yes. Not a majority of them, but yes tying pay to a teachers pay will encourage some teachers to have their students cheat.

[trayfoot]

13. A Teacher's Perspective on Merit Pay

With over 3 decades of experience in the classroom under my belt, I can tell you that idealistically merit pay sounds good. However, there are many pitfalls. You mention just one. Teachers have opposed merit pay because 1) salaries are dismally low and should be increased across the board to attract and hold good people, 2) Local school principals - the primary ones who would decide who gets merit pay - are very territorial and political. There are outstanding teachers who get treated quite poorly by administrators because the teachers are NOT butt kissers. While many might find it quite hard to believe, the truly outstanding teachers may be passed over for poorer teachers who know how and are willing to schmooze the administrators. Evaluations are very subjective. 3) Merit pay assumes the position that educators have "total control" over what happens in the classroom. That is simply a fairy tale of the highest quality. "Suits" in Central Office determine how and what teachers teach. All parents do not cooperate with educators. The business community contributes obstacles by placing teen jobs above education. Politicians THINK they are educational specialists - they are NOT! I could go on, but you get the picture. 4) Resources are scarce and unevenly distributed between states and within states. 5) Student classroom allocations are not equal. Are you going to compare a teacher who teaches the behaviorally or cognitively abnormal on the same scale as the teacher who teaches college prep? These are just some of the reasons why teachers do NOT want merit pay schemes. That is one thing I disagree with President Obama about.

[wackywaggin]

26. Well stated.

Perhaps the solution for rewarding quality educators should come from the consensus of groups of students with teachers being exposed to different groups of students over a period of time. Averaging the mean score of both "good" and "bad" schools, and basing the merit pay on the percentage increase in total student improvement above the curve created for each school. It seems that this would be a somewhat good measurement tool to use on student improvement and remove some subjective variables.
I also think a volunteer parents board from different districts rotating around the districts evaluating teacher performance is a good model to create for merit pay increases, effectively removing the power from administrators and saving money on their salaries.

[Fire1]

33. That wouldn't work for many reasons. First of which includes

one outside of the profession evaluating. That, in itself, is an insult to the profession.

[trayfoot]

36. I agree.

[DarkTirade]

14. Not necessarily cheat, but it will cause the teachers to 'teach for the exam'.

Thanks to little brother Jeb that expression has described the FL school systems that I had to go through in the 90s to a T. I learned a grand total of one thing in high school that would translate into something useful in college. Unfortunately that was something that I probably should have learned in fifth or sixth grade.

[Bill McBlueState]

15. If "merit" means "good test scores" then, sure

But any well-designed attempt to measure teaching quality won't rely on raw test scores.

[alwysdrunk]

17. No, they would be afraid to get fired

Kids talk. If a teacher did this someone would find out soon enough, they would be out of a job and discredited in their field.

[Nye Bevan]

23. Breaking the rules to personally enrich themselves?

Yes, you find cheats like this in every profession, not just teaching. As well as moral scruples, the fear of being disgraced and going to jail should be a deterrent.

[harun]

25. Merit won't mean good test scores and good grades. It has to be a

holistic approach. Just like a review and reward bonus from an employer the employee is considered on many topics. For example, merit for a teacher could be based on:

How well they communicated with parents?
How well they worked with other teachers?
How well they communicated to administrators?
How well lower performing students improved annually?
How well higher performing students were challenged?
How their students felt they were taught, treated, respected, fairness, etc.?
What the teacher did to improve their own skills, training, classes, seminars, etc.?

In terms of merit for the teacher the actual score of the student would be a small piece IMHO.

[NYC_SKP]

27. Exactly, it will look at not only the "whole student", but the "whole teacher".

To add to your list, is the teacher handling a larger class size, more at-risk youth, more learning disabled or English Language Learners?

How much professional development has the teacher completed, are they in a hard to fill post?

Etc., etc...

I am confident he'll look at many more things then test scores.

He's very smart and his sister is a teacher.

:donut:

[harun]

28. Agree, he knows how it works.

[Hello_Kitty]

29. Having been through many performance review processes in the business world

I can tell you that most of them are so much subjective arbitrary bullshit. You can be a complete fuck-up at your actual job, but if you are well-liked and know how to schmooze you will get stellar reviews by your manager and your peers. Four of the criteria you list are about popularity, not teaching ability.

Modeling education after the business world is a mistake. It hasn't even worked in the business world, so why do we think it will work in schools?

[NYC_SKP]

31. OK, where isn't it true that if your well-liked by the right people you get ahead?

Having features in common with a business model does not make it "modeled after the business world".

Do you think we should leave it as is, let shitty teachers stay for the same pay as great teachers?

If not, please describe what you might try to do, given the power.

Thank you,

NYC_SKP

[Vidar]

30. Usually it results in some form of teaching the test upon which the students will be evaluated.

[Uzybone]

32. Only if we assume most teachers are already dishonest

Honest people will not let students cheat because of merit pay.