Is there any good, fair way to track teacher performance for merit pay purposes?

[jpgray]

If there is, I've yet to hear of it. To generalize something so explicitly situational just seems like a disaster in the making, as it has been with standardized testing tied to school funding. In that regard it's extremely simple to muddle the statistics and crow "success!" without having achieved anything resembling such in reality. All a school has to do in order to show improvement is encourage dropouts to cull undesirables from the rolls a little; all a state/district has to do is put out a slightly easier test for next time; all a national politician has to do is point to a district/school that has, for -whatever- reason, performed better than last time. The testing-based reward/punishment system worked!

With merit pay the situational problems come even further into play. The kids most in need of enormous effort and dedication from their teachers also tend to respond to such in a far smaller proportion than those kids who are already solidly on a track to scholastic success: the more disadvantaged/disinterested the kids, the smaller the proportion of them who will respond to even the most heroic efforts on behalf of the teacher; by contrast, the more advantaged/interested the kids, the greater the proportion of them who will respond readily to even the slightest effort on behalf of the teacher. The most skilled and dedicated teachers therefore, who -already- face severely diminishing returns for their efforts with disadvantaged kids, will face an added -financial- disincentive to the work, and given how little teachers are paid it's hard to imagine anyone but a saint slaving away for both less gratification -and- less pay than they could achieve with a better group.

So in essence I see merit pay (tied to performance, not simply continuing education etc.) as discouraging the most skilled teachers even further from working with the students who desperately need the highest level of skill available. Those kids, who have every disadvantage, will receive yet another.

[Bill McBlueState]

1. It seems like there should be

Students can tell whether their teacher knows what he's doing. It was common knowledge among students in my high school which teachers were good and which ones were bad.

But I'm not sure how to quantify that in a way that's amenable to merit pay. Test scores sure aren't it.

[TechBear_Seattle]

3. Many students are eager to punish teachers deemed "too hard"

If a math teacher fails a star of the school football team because he will not do his homework and blows off the tests, you can bet your last dime that enough students will fail the teacher, no matter how competent she may be.

[Bill McBlueState]

7. yup

University promotion & tenure committees have the same problem when they use student evaluations to measure teaching quality.

I'm not sure what else these committees look at when evaluating teaching effectiveness, but they've been thinking about this problem at least as long as K-12 policymakers have.

[QC]

23. Good teacher = easy and entertaining. Bad teacher = demanding.

It's not that way with all students, of course, but it is definitely the case with many. And that reasoning extends to administrators, who in many cases believe that the demanding teachers are bad because parents gripe about them, or worse, because they are hurting the students' self-esteem. (The self-esteem movement has not been an unmixed blessing. For many administrators and not a few teachers, it seems to be the only idea they remember from college.)

Student evaluations have their place, and the feedback from them is valuable, but there is abundant research on their weaknesses, which finds that: more physically attractive teachers get higher evals, women are often evaluated more strictly than men, higher grades correlate strongly to higher evals, etc.

I agree wih you that we need a mix of factors in evaluating teachers; student evaluations have their place, as so test scores and classroom observations and teaching portfolios. Unfortunately, in practice merit pay is more often an exercise in cronyism than any honest effort to reward good teachers.

ON EDIT: Bill, I now see that your post #7 addresses the concerns I raised in this post, which I was still working on when you posted--had to take the dogs out on an urgent call.

[Hippo_Tron]

71. Demanding teachers will always have the respect of students that want to learn

And even in a bad class there will always be some students who want to learn. They will get A's and they will feel good about their A's even if the rest of the class has a gripe about the teacher.

Bad teachers (and they are pretty rare, IMO) are universally recognized as bad even by the students who want to learn. I wasn't always an A student and I had plenty of teachers that I wasn't particularly fond of. But even if I wasn't fond of a teacher I did not think that they were not qualified to teach. But there was one teacher who I felt was completely not up to the task. She taught AP European History and by the time the AP exam came around she had not even lectured on the second half of the 20th century. I got an A- in the class so I certainly wasn't mad that she was too challenging. But like everyone else in the class I was upset that she didn't do her job in preparing us for the AP exam.

So I agree that student evaluations need to be taken with not just a grain but perhaps a whole shaker of salt. But when the students are unanimously critical of a teacher, it warrants at least a closer look.

[Marrah_G]

36. That would turn it into a popularity contest.

[Bill McBlueState]

38. To an extent, yes

A few weeks ago I was poking around on one of those websites where you can rate your professors. I checked out the results for faculty in the college astronomy department I work in.

About half of the responses fell into one of these categories:

"hard" professor = bad
"easy" professor = good
hot professor = good

But if you disregard those, the remaining opinions are actually in pretty good agreement with my own more seasoned assessments of my colleagues. If you know what to ignore, you can build up a reasonable picture of a teacher's competence from student evaluations.

That's very far from saying that increased pay should rely heavily on student evaluations. I'm just saying that students can clearly tell which of their teachers are the most effective, and with a little creativity, unions and administators should be able to find a way to quantify effectiveness and tie it to bonus pay if they want.

[YvonneCa]

42. There should be, but here's a story to ponder...

...

Originally titled: "Absolutely the Best Dentists"

Also: History behind essay
My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget checkups. He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and I've got all my teeth, so when I ran into him the other day, I was eager to see if he'd heard about the new state program. I knew he'd think it was great.
"Did you hear about the new state program to measure the effectiveness of dentists with their young patients?" I said.
"No," he said. He didn't seem too thrilled. "How will they do that?"
"It's quite simple," I said. "They will just count the number of cavities each patient has at age 10, 14 and 18 and average that to determine a dentist's rating. Dentists will be rated as Excellent, Good, Average, Below Average and Unsatisfactory. That way parents will know which are the best dentists. It will also encourage the less effective dentists to get better," I said. "Poor dentists who don't improve could lose their licenses to practice in South Carolina."
"Cavities are the bottom line, and you can't argue with the bottom line. It's an absolute measure."
"That's terrible," he said.
"What? That's not a good attitude," I said. "Don't you think we should try to improve children's dental health in this state?"
"Sure I do," he said, "but that's not a fair way to determine who is practicing good dentistry."
"Why not?" I said. "It makes perfect sense to me."
"Well, it's so obvious," he said. "Don't you see that dentists don't all work with the same clientele; so much depends on things we can't control?
"For example," he said, "I work in a rural area with a high percentage of patients from deprived homes, while some of my colleagues work in upper-middle class neighborhoods. Many of the parents I work with don't bring their children to see me until there is some kind of problem and I don't get to do much preventive work.
"Also," he said, "many of the parents I serve let their kids eat way too much candy from a young age, unlike more educated parents who understand the relationship between sugar and decay.
"To top it all off," he added, "so many of my clients have well water which is untreated and has no fluoride in it. Do you have any idea how much difference early use of fluoride can make?"
"It sounds like you're making excuses," I said. I couldn't believe my dentist would be so defensive. He does a great job.
"I am not!" he said. "My best patients are as good as anyone's, my work is as good as anyone's, but my average cavity count is going to be higher than a lot of other dentists because I chose to work where I am needed most."
"Don't get touchy," I said.
"Touchy?" he said. His face had turned red, and from the way he was clenching and unclenching his jaws, I was afraid he was going to damage his teeth. "Try furious. In a system like this, I will end up being rated average, below average or worse.
"My more educated patients who see these ratings may believe this so-called rating actually is a measure of my ability and proficiency as a dentist. They may leave me, and I'll be left with only the most needy patients. And my cavity average score will get even worse.
"On top of that, how will I attract good dental hygienists and other excellent dentists to my practice if it is labeled below average?"
"I think you're over-reacting," I said. "'Complaining, excuse making and stonewalling won't improve dental health '... I am quoting that from a leading member of the DOC," I noted.
"What's the DOC?" he said.
"It's the Dental Oversight Committee," I said, "a group made up of mostly lay-persons to make sure dentistry in this state gets improved."
"Spare me," he said. "I can't believe this. Reasonable people won't buy it," he said hopefully.
The program sounded reasonable to me, so I asked, "How else would you measure good dentistry?"
"Come watch me work," he said. "Observe my processes."
"That's too complicated and time consuming," I said. "Cavities are the bottom line, and you can't argue with the bottom line. It's an absolute measure."
"No one would ever think of doing that to schools."

—dentist
"That's what I'm afraid my patients and prospective patients will think. This can't be happening," he said despairingly.
"Now, now," I said, "don't despair. The state will help you some."
"How?" he said.
"If you're rated poorly, they'll send a dentist who is rated excellent to help straighten you out," I said brightly.
"You mean," he said, "they will send a dentist with a wealthy clientele to show me how to work on severe juvenile dental problems with which I have probably had much more experience? Big help."
"There you go again," I said. "You aren't acting professionally at all."
"You don't get it," he said. "Doing this would be like grading schools and teachers on an average score on a test of children's progress without regard to influences outside the school — the home, the community served and stuff like that. Why would they do something so unfair to dentists? No one would ever think of doing that to schools."
I just shook my head sadly, but he had brightened. "I'm going to write my representatives and senator," he said. "I'll use the school analogy — surely they'll see my point."
He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I see in the mirror so often lately.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

History of this essay

John Taylor, retired superintendent of schools in Lancaster, S.C., offers this history of the above essay which he wrote while leading that district:
"The parody was originally titled 'Absolutely the Best Dentists.' It was written and sent to every newspaper and legislator in South Carolina a number of years ago in an attempt to point out the absurdities inherent in South Carolina's then new accountability act which was focused on 'absolute' performance and threatened retention for every child who couldn't meet very challenging grade level standards. (Not to mention severe penalties for 'poorly performing' schools, teachers ands administrators.) Since then it has traveled widely to the point that I have not been able to keep up with the uses; but I know it has appeared in teacher association publications in at least three Canadian Provinces and in Australia, as well as dozens in the USA. The No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB) seems to have given the story a new life." Thus: No Dentist Left Behind.
The essay remains on the Lancaster County School District's Web site.
Lancaster County School District
300 South Catawba Street (zip-29720)
P.O. Drawer 130 (zip-29721)
Lancaster, S.C.

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. No. That is why so many teachers oppose the "merit pay" idea n/t

[alwysdrunk]

4. Of course there is

I know I had good teachers and bad teachers when I was in school. Us kids talked about it and there was pretty much a concecsus. If a 16 year old kid can tell the difference, then why the hell can't these goverment officials and school administrators find that out? Maybe if they would TRY instead of snapping their hand back once the teacher's unions starting screeching they would have found a way by now.

[jpgray]

5. Yes, because what kids like and what is good for them are always the same thing?

The "kids know" theory presumes that what kids want is to learn. In a nice suburban school, that might be true. However, a group of students that is rebellious, reading behind grade-level and determined to do as little as possible (not a rarity) often wants to float through school doing as little work as possible. Such a group, of course, needs to do far -more- work than a more advantaged group, and almost all of them will hate being made to do it.

Imagine a math teacher attempting to teach an average fifth grade math class how to solve differential equations: they won't even know the fundamentals, it will seem like a waste of time, and they will be frustrated and resistant when it becomes apparent they will have to do hours and hours of work outside of school to progress. That's true of any class attempting to learn at a grade level they are well behind, no? No student would enjoy the time and effort required to close such a gap.

[alwysdrunk]

15. "Kids know" only shows evidence that there ARE good and bad teachers

The adminsitrators need to find a way to measure that. Test scores can be part of it, but it shouldn't be the entire metric. There HAS to be a way.

[jpgray]

24. But how do you translate the kids' extensive experience with a teacher into a few statistics?

This is assuming the kids are fairly and accurately judging the "best" teachers--I would agree with you that kids know which teachers are working hard and which just don't care any more, but how do you translate that knowledge, gained over many days of class experience, into usable criteria?

[WinkyDink]

13. You speak from ignorance, and show the precise type of attitude that ought to stop the discussion in

its tracks.

Sure, we all "knew". But try translating that into FAIR and PROVABLE ASSESSMENTS of EVERY TEACHER.
We all "knew" the "pal" who made class "fun" and "easy", did we not? You know, young and cool, fresh out of college?
GMAB.

[alwysdrunk]

19. What?

Ignorant of what? I've never been a student before? I didn't go to public school my entire life? My mother isn't a Principal and my sister isn't an teacher's assistant?

What attitude SHOULD I have that would make me worthy of taking part in ths discussion?

[WinkyDink]

20. How about: "There needs to be more involved in Merit Pay awarding than student attitude."

Do you have a classroom teacher as a relative?

[alwysdrunk]

22. Of course there needs to be more involved than that

But the arguments I hear are against even trying to bring in any type of metrics at all! All I'm saying is that there ARE good and bad teachers and because of that, there MUST be a way to measure and report on that.

My mother was a teacher for 20 years and is now a elementary school principal. My views on education come from my own experiences and from conversations with her.

[imdjh]

33. My favorite teacher was a 50 year old hippie

He was officially an English teacher but what we spent most of our time on was philosophy, pop psychology, and a world view with a Buddhist aesthetic.

It's interesting that you don't always look back on teachers the same way you saw them in real time. My tenth grade History class was taught by a young modern teacher, and it was pure rote. I did well, but it was all names and dates. The next year I had History And Government, taught by an obnoxious old man who insisted on being addressed by his former military title (Col.) when all the other teachers went by their first names. I think I learned more from Col. Whathisname than any other teacher in High School, and it wasn't names and dates- it was the Why.

[PVnRT]

48. Ahhh, yes, it's all the unions' fault

I remember, back in the day, unions and teachers were welcome on DU.

As for your broader point, if you don't see the problems with it, then you're just ignorant.

[last_texas_dem]

72. Sounds like "merit pay" would be more of a popularity contest than anything

if it were based on the consensus opinions of "16 year old kid"s. I know the 16 year olds I went to school with were more likely to consider a teacher "good" if they found their personality entertaining or if they thought their class was easy.

I had a couple of teachers in high school that I personally considered to be "bad" for different reasons. One taught a boring, fairly difficult class in a dry manner, and was not a very likeable person; she was generally disliked by the students. The other was even worse- he barely taught his subject matter at all, but graded everyone easily; he was thus pretty well-liked by the kids. Somehow I don't think the personal opinions of students should have anything to do with how teachers are paid, unless we think how "cool" someone is should determine their worth.

[gblady]

6. there must be a way.....

job performance has been evaluated in every job I've ever had.
There has to be a fair and equitable way to measure teacher performance.

[jpgray]

8. Would you compare an ER surgeon and a family doc using patient death as a criterion?

The problem with generalized teaching standards is how situational and unique two superficially similar teaching jobs can be.

[mkultra]

43. you could easily use patient death to compare ER doctors though

And it would be a fair assessment with a large enough sample. (lots of dead people)

[PVnRT]

50. Except that some patients can't be saved

Except that larger hospitals in larger urban areas with more violent crime will have more deaths than the hospital out in Brindlefuck, Nebraska.

It's actually a very apropos analogy to evaluating teachers, since simply comparing patient deaths (like comparing test scores) really doesn't tell you anything.

[mkultra]

53. if you confine performance evalauation to a single hosiptal or ER

then the inequity rights itself.

To put it simply, comparing list doctors in a like setting under like circumstances does create a valid comparison.

A better analogy is simply to measure patient improvement under like doctors in a like setting. As long as your sample is large enough, statistical anomaly is suppressed.

[WinkyDink]

14. Just declaring this doesn't make it so.

[imdjh]

26. Fair and equitable?

"job performance has been evaluated in every job I've ever had.
There has to be a fair and equitable way to measure teacher performance."

Was the evaluation of job performance "fair and equitable" in every job you have ever had? I would be surprised if that were the case.

Look at something as seemingly self determined as real estate salesman. You can work your butt off, read all the books, follow all the instructions, and still be aced by some general's wife, socialite, or queen bee at the local church who is profiting from position or influence. One of the biggest complaints in schools (public or private) has been "politics" in policy and promotion. Listen to how these people talk to you as a parent. They're working you. They make every statement a question which is designed for a "yes" answer.

The problems are systemic. When you take the joy out of teaching, you lose the teachers who will not have their dream killed and end up with the ones who adapt to the mediocre bureaucratic way of doing things. And all of this happens because we have courts and legislatures micromanaging schools in the attempt to ensure that we don't have "good schools" and "bad schools" so what we end up with are more bad schools. It works the same way with the students. You don't bring the bad kids up by putting them in with the good kids- you bring the good kids down. And this all happens because of the very best intentions, except the intention to never admit that what you are doing is wrongheaded and failing.

We need to let teachers teach. We need to let principles make staff and student disciplinary decisions which have effect and are not subject to the endless appeals and second guessing of an endless bureaucracy. And we need to accept that we will have some good schools and some bad schools. To offset the effect on the individual, we also need to craft a system which allows parents to move their kids out of a bad school or out of the public schools entirely.

My family has had it with the public schools and private schools. We're doing Virtual School.

[mkultra]

44. more fair is undeniable

merit pay in the private sector has ALWAYS been more fair than simple base line increases over time.

The reason that government jobs in non essential areas have such terrible performance is because there is often no merit pay system. It creates a bunker mentality.

[fed_up_mother]

66. Whoa.

"The reason that government jobs in non essential areas have such terrible performance is because there is often no merit pay system. It creates a bunker mentality."

Careful. You're treading on thin ice, but I completely agree and so does everyone who has ever been to our local Department of Motor Vehicles, whether they realize it or not. :rofl:

[mkultra]

70. Ice or not, dare i tread

This may not be true of what i consider the more critical public services such as DHS but i do know first hand that government jobs, such as in IT, are almost impossible to be fired from and get automatic yearly increases.

[dcindian]

9. The merit pay argument has no merit.

It is a lot like saying America's health care system is broken because of bad doctors.


We have spent the last 50 years attacking educators in this country. Yet not once in 50 years has anyone been able to prove the affect of bad teachers on the whole of the education system. Not once has anyone even shown how many bad teachers there are.


I would go as far to say that Disney has done more harm to our education system then any group of so called bad teachers with their constant teachers are dumb shows.

[alwysdrunk]

12. So are all teachers created equal?

There are no bad teachers? Is that what you're saying here? It's only mean kids and selfish republicans who created this myth?

Are there any GOOD teachers? If there are no BAD ones then how can any of the rest be GOOD?

[WinkyDink]

16. WHAT would be your CRITERIA, besides, say, "I was bored"?

[dcindian]

18. Then prove the affect.

you have had 50 years of bashing. Let us see it. It is time for you teacher haters to back up the idiot argument.

The whole argument that a small group of teachers have such a big impact on overall education is just ignorant.

[QC]

25. Exactly. "Merit pay" is just another aspect of the current corporate model fad in education.

We now have college presidents and high school principals calling themselves CEOs, forcing their teachers to take time away from teaching in order to serve on numerous committees and produce reports no one will ever read, speaking in terms of "customer service" and "product," etc.

It's ironic that at a time when corporations are collapsing all around us and are about as respected as the clap, people are trying to transform our academic institutions into corporations.

[Bill McBlueState]

39. I do hate the corporation-worship

The president of the university I work at and all his underlings want the place to be run more like a business. I want to know whether they have AIG or Enron in mind.

We even have an Office of Student Customer Service. Argh.

[QC]

41. Sounds like my college.

If I never hear the words 'proactive,' 'robust,' or 'innovative' again it will be too soon.

[spartan61]

10. I so agree with you and you stated your case very eloquently.

How does one really measure something like this? I have always hated NCLB because of all the testing and making decisions based on test scores. How can this truly measure anything, especially when we really don't know how a child is living? Is the the child getting the proper amount of sleep the night before the test... or food? I have had little second graders who have lived in deplorable conditions coming to school hungry and with very little sleep because the mother was doing drugs and having sex with live in boyfriends right in front of the child at night and that child is expected to be tested the next morning. Or these poor children who are physically abused at home (and for whom I have had to report the incident). How can they perform well on a test? Another problem I see is a principal or superintendent with their "favorite teacher friends." Every year the bogus "Teacher of the Year" was selected by the supt. based on nothing more than how much the teacher sucked up to the administration. I'm afraid these same teachers would be given the merit pay based on the very same criteria.

Every year my class was made up of the biggest discipline problems and when I asked why they were all put together in my class I was told, "Because you can handle it." Just once I would have liked to have had a class of children who could think, stay on task, and were respectful. The make up of the class makes all the difference in the world.

[WinkyDink]

11. No. For one major thing, not every school subject/discipline gets standardized testing!

As a former English teacher AND a Guidance counselor, and being on the EXACT SAME CONTRACT for both positions, I would have been eligible to be "paid for merit" for the former only.

Then there are physical education, home economics/family studies, driver's ed, etc. I'd like to know the state that has standardized tests for those disciplines.

Beyond the impossibility of Merit Pay equity of opportunity among staff, there is the impossibility, once beyond the single-teacher-for-all-subjects elementary grades, of determining the measurable effect of one teacher on a group of students whom---given that standardized testing is done often in February/March---said teacher has taught for a half-year at best. If you have a school (such as mine) on the Block System, where students begin a new series of courses every semester, said teacher might have had the tested group for mere days!

Merit Pay for Departments? Maybe. That would help inject sense into the second issue, but it would still leave the "But not every discipline gets tested" dilemma.

Finally, the moneies allotted for MP might better be used to help pay for the increasing cost of health benefits.

[NYC_SKP]

29. Obama has never, ever, mentioned using standardized testing to increase pay.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-of-the-President-to-the-Hispanic-Chamber-of-Commerce/


In his words, all references to rewarding teachers from today's address:

"It's time to expect more from our students. It's time to start rewarding good teachers, stop making excuses for bad ones. It's time to demand results from government at every level. It's time to prepare every child, everywhere in America, to out-compete any worker, anywhere in the world."

"That is what we'll help them do later this year -- that what we're going to help them do later this year when we finally make No Child Left Behind live up to its name by ensuring not only that teachers and principals get the funding that they need, but that the money is tied to results. (Applause.) And Arne Duncan will also back up this commitment to higher standards with a fund to invest in innovation in our school districts." (NB: Results can mean many, many things, not just test scores, Obama knows this)

"And far too few districts are emulating the example of Houston and Long Beach, and using data to track how much progress a student is making and where that student is struggling. That's a resource that can help us improve student achievement, and tell us which students had which teachers so we can assess what's working and what's not. That's why we're making a major investment in this area that we will cultivate a new culture of accountability in America's schools." (NB: He mentions identifying different teachers, no mention of merit pay here)

"Now, to complete our race to the top requires the third pillar of reform -- recruiting, preparing, and rewarding outstanding teachers. From the moment students enter a school, the most important factor in their success is not the color of their skin or the income of their parents, it's the person standing at the front of the classroom." (NB: Good, we need to reward outstanding teachers)

"And if you do your part, then we'll do ours. That's why we're taking steps to prepare teachers for their difficult responsibilities, and encourage them to stay in the profession. That's why we're creating new pathways to teaching and new incentives to bring teachers to schools where they're needed most. That's why we support offering extra pay to Americans who teach math and science to end a teacher shortage in those subjects. It's why we're building on the promising work being done in places like South Carolina's Teachers Advancement Program, and making an unprecedented commitment to ensure that anyone entrusted with educating our children is doing the job as well as it can be done."

"Now, here's what that commitment means: It means treating teachers like the professionals they are while also holding them more accountable -– in up to 150 more school districts. New teachers will be mentored by experienced ones. Good teachers will be rewarded with more money for improved student achievement, and asked to accept more responsibilities for lifting up their schools. Teachers throughout a school will benefit from guidance and support to help them improve." (NB: Rewarded with more money for improved student achievement, that may or may not mean pay, it may mean giving them greater tools to exercise their leadership)

>>>This concludes the excerpts from today's address regarding "rewarding teachers".

[imdjh]

17. Money isn't the problem

I don't think I have ever heard a pubic school teacher say, "They don't pay me enough to teach." Not recently anyway, because the salaries are actually pretty good these days. What I have heard public school teachers say is "They don't pay me enough (to put up with all this bullshit)."

If schools have to "mainstream" students who can't or won't learn, then teachers are put in the impossible position of essentially teaching six mixed classes a day with 25 students working at different grade levels in the same period, complicated by the constant disruption of students who won't or are incapable of behaving themselves. Discipline is almost impossible to deliver, and is closely monitored by statistics which the administration then uses to punish principals, or lawyers use to prove that the school isn't doing its job.

Vouchers seem like a good idea, and probably would be at first, But how long would it be before the lawsuits come maintaining that by accepting voucher money, the private schools should have to be as crippled as the public schools by the failed public school policies? How long before the private schools couldn't expel students for fear of losing eligibility for the vouchers?

All of this is because we refuse to accept that a policy has failed and either return to the old way of doing things, or come up with a new way. We patch a piece of crap policy instead of replacing it. It's like Windows.

[alwysdrunk]

21. I agree. Trouble kids need to be seperated out

I say this as one of the severe bad behavior kids who was and should have been seperated out for a while. To hear my mother's stories the only answer for some of these kids would be to put them in military type schools. Social promotion, mainstreaming, all of these excues to have the stupid and ill-behaved students dragging down the others and the teacher with them, that stuff needs to stop.

[imdjh]

30. I wanted to go to military school

Kids know when they aren't getting enough discipline, when they aren't learning to be goal oriented and pushed to achieve. I used to see the ads for military schools and I WANTED to go to one of those schools. I wasn't sure why I wanted to go there, but I knew I wanted to go there. My parents wouldn't have dreamed of sending me to a military school. My parents were pseudo hippies.

[dubeskin]

27. At my high school, we definitely know the "good ones" from the "bad ones"

The problem though is that it differs for each person. Let me give you a few examples. We have a Mr. Zawacki. He's fun to talk to, and he definitely know his stuff. But when every class period, and let me tell you this is AP Microeconomics, we spend 20-30 minutes of a 1.25 hour class just talking amongst ourselves, or listening to music, etc. and when he finally starts "teaching" he never really addresses the content, that's bad teaching.

On the other hand, our entire Science department would unanimously be concluded as "the most fun department" with the "best teachers" - in that they know their content, are willing to give extra help, can convey each topic so everyone can understand it, and are actually fun to be with.

The problem with introducing a merit system, like already stated, is that there will be those students who hate a teacher because of the homework load. However, at least at my school, the heavier coursework classes are those AP classes, and likewise the students in there would be much more honest about the teachers, willing to remove homework bias.

Since my district is cutting roughly 106 teachers for next year (pink slips just recently got sent out, my mom got one) they're going by rank. Unfortunately, a lot of the older teachers, while with lots of experience, are tired and shouldn't be teaching, and in fact the newest teachers are the ones with the most energy and enthusiasm.

In my opinion, while costly, maybe one of the best things to do would be to hire someone specifically to randomly monitor classes. While teachers will alter their lesson plan if they know someone's coming, if it's random it could catch them off guard. Another possible way would be to monitor each class - maybe by camera. I know it sounds kinda like 1984, but if the teacher knew they were always being watched, it could create an incentive to always be teaching instead of screwing around.

Just my 2 cents.

[NYC_SKP]

28. Yes, as long as it's not based on student's test performances alone. Simple.

It's simple really and all the drama people are expressing is really unnecessary.

You know why standardized tests are used with students? Because the administrators of them are lazy and users of the data are negligent.

An educator knows that you can't assess a student with a single metric, or a single standardized test.

You must look at and assess the Whole Student, and their context, using a combination of tools; portfolio assessments, performance, etc.

Similarly we may assess educators by looking at the Whole Teacher.

Nobody has articulated the tools, yet, to my knowledge, but it's doable.



Obama will get this right. Here are the pertinent excerpts from yesterday's address.

In his words, all references to rewarding teachers from today's address:

"It's time to expect more from our students. It's time to start rewarding good teachers, stop making excuses for bad ones. It's time to demand results from government at every level. It's time to prepare every child, everywhere in America, to out-compete any worker, anywhere in the world."

"That is what we'll help them do later this year -- that what we're going to help them do later this year when we finally make No Child Left Behind live up to its name by ensuring not only that teachers and principals get the funding that they need, but that the money is tied to results. (Applause.) And Arne Duncan will also back up this commitment to higher standards with a fund to invest in innovation in our school districts." (NB: Results can mean many, many things, not just test scores, Obama knows this)

"And far too few districts are emulating the example of Houston and Long Beach, and using data to track how much progress a student is making and where that student is struggling. That's a resource that can help us improve student achievement, and tell us which students had which teachers so we can assess what's working and what's not. That's why we're making a major investment in this area that we will cultivate a new culture of accountability in America's schools." (NB: He mentions identifying different teachers, no mention of merit pay here)

"Now, to complete our race to the top requires the third pillar of reform -- recruiting, preparing, and rewarding outstanding teachers. From the moment students enter a school, the most important factor in their success is not the color of their skin or the income of their parents, it's the person standing at the front of the classroom." (NB: Good, we need to reward outstanding teachers)

"And if you do your part, then we'll do ours. That's why we're taking steps to prepare teachers for their difficult responsibilities, and encourage them to stay in the profession. That's why we're creating new pathways to teaching and new incentives to bring teachers to schools where they're needed most. That's why we support offering extra pay to Americans who teach math and science to end a teacher shortage in those subjects. It's why we're building on the promising work being done in places like South Carolina's Teachers Advancement Program, and making an unprecedented commitment to ensure that anyone entrusted with educating our children is doing the job as well as it can be done."

"Now, here's what that commitment means: It means treating teachers like the professionals they are while also holding them more accountable -– in up to 150 more school districts. New teachers will be mentored by experienced ones. Good teachers will be rewarded with more money for improved student achievement, and asked to accept more responsibilities for lifting up their schools. Teachers throughout a school will benefit from guidance and support to help them improve." (NB: Rewarded with more money for improved student achievement, that may or may not mean pay, it may mean giving them greater tools to exercise their leadership)

>>>This concludes the excerpts from yesterday's address regarding "rewarding teachers".

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-of-the-President-to-the-Hispanic-Chamber-of-Commerce/

[jpgray]

31. I'm sorry, but those are the same mealy-mouthed windy phrases that signify nothing

It means treating teachers like the professionals they are while also holding them more accountable

Sounds great, no? What does it mean though? No one has any idea. Same thing with many other platitudes on the list:

Good teachers will be rewarded with more money for improved student achievement, and asked to accept more responsibilities for lifting up their schools.

when we finally make No Child Left Behind live up to its name by ensuring not only that teachers and principals get the funding that they need, but that the money is tied to results.

Now of course a pol could say this with good intentions to represent good policy, but to post these meaningless quotes as evidence just begs the question--what are the criteria?

[NYC_SKP]

32. Oh, puh-leeze. I see your mind is made up to reject before you've even heard.

or, more accurately, you reject what hasn't event been delineated yet.

His plan is under development, he's pulling together the best minds he can to get, expert and lay opinions, before he commits to any particular approach.

How nice that you don't even wait for that articulation to attack him. :eyes:

I am waiting to hear. I anticipate that what I wrote will be prove to be somewhat descriptive of the approach he'll take:

An educator knows that you can't assess a student with a single metric, or a single standardized test.

You must look at and assess the Whole Student, and their context, using a combination of tools; portfolio assessments, performance, etc.

Similarly we may assess educators by looking at the Whole Teacher.

:donut:

[jpgray]

35. You're the one telling me it's simple and doable--what are the criteria?

[NYC_SKP]

37. ProSense wrote a good post early this morning with some examples:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8256531

sourced from here: http://www.obama-mamas.com/blog/?p=194

You'll see a lot of strategies, professional development incentives, higher pay to teacher challenging students or to take hard to fill posts, etc., etc.,

SNIP:

The most controversial of the President’s proposals is the introduction of a monetary rewards system for teachers. This is usually disparaged as “merit pay” by teachers and teachers’ unions, and the arguments against it are varied and mostly sound. Teaching is by necessity a collaborative effort and conflict between teachers is not beneficial. Teaching can become rote and mechanical and fail to teach critical thinking skills. Evaluation can be subjective and arbitrary, or unfair in schools where there is little room for improvement as students are already at the top.

Still, President Obama insists there is room to encourage and reward exceptional teachers. “New teachers will be mentored by experienced ones. Good teachers will be rewarded with more money for improved student achievement, and asked to accept more responsibilities for lifting up their schools. Teachers throughout a school will benefit from guidance and support to help them improve.”

In other words, President Obama is not talking about a 1700s “pay for performance” testing model of merit pay. A classroom of students droning out endless repetitions of reading, math and history is not what is envisioned; according to Robert Gibbs, Obama press secretary. In fact, it might look like the system in Denver where, according to Gibbs, “the school system and teachers worked together to create a plan that was ultimately passed as part of a referendum..”

The Denver program was designed with the cooperation of the union and the administration, and a key element was allowing teachers the choice of opting into the Professional Compensation System known as ProComp. In fact, most of the teachers don’t opt in and are still working under the traditional seniority system. Still, some of the aspects of Denver’s program are worth considering as we continue to attempt to improve our children’s educational outcomes.

KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS

Professional Development Unit - Teachers are eligible for 2% salary increases upon the completion of approved courses and demonstration of the acquired skills.Graduate Degree/National Board Certificates - Teachers who earn graduate degrees or certificates from the National Board for Professional Teaching Standards will receive a salary increase of 9% of the index for the life of the degree or certificate.

Tuition and Student Loan Reimbursement - Teachers will receive reimbursement for up to $4,000 lifetime, $1000 in year, for tuition for current coursework or to pay off outstanding student loans.

MARKET INCENTIVES

Hard to Staff - Teachers/specialists who work in positions that are considered difficult to fill, supply is low and turnover is high.will receive a 6.4% of Index non-base building incentive.Hard to Serve - Teachers/specialists at schools considered hard to serve, based on high percentage of free and reduced lunch, will receive a 6.4% Index non-base building incentive every year the school is eligible.

STUDENT GROWTH OBJECTIVES

Objectives are job-based, measurable and focus on student growth. Objectives also measure learning content, intervention priorities, intervention strategies, and the steps taken to meet goals. Objectives can be department related, school specific or district wide. Objectives might include increasing the number of hearing disabled children in mainstream classes or adapting new technology for visually imparied students.
Objectives must be discussions at least three times per year.

:patriot:

[PVnRT]

51. Oh, Christ. How do you think they track student "performance"?

Test. Scores.

I suppose it's the teacher's fault if a student refuses to even try in a class because he doesn't give a shit.

Funny that "accountability" means "teachers" and not administrators. More of the same old bullshit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. The best way to do it is with grades.

Grades decided on by the teacher. Through homework. Proper tests and quizzes. Classroom participation.

And so on.

[NYC_SKP]

60. I'm a teacher. You grossly oversimplify.

Bush looks at test scores.
Good educators look at many measures.

[CBR]

34. Merit

My Husband is a teacher, so I guess I am permitted to talk about this. I feel for children who are in some of the classrooms at his school (he is at a private school) -- the difference is amazing between the classrooms. I do not like the notion of merit pay on the basis of student assessment or test scores; however, I do believe that it could be conducted in a way similar to tenure reviews at a university, where student evaluation is one of many criteria.

That said, the need to improve education cannot focus on the performance of teachers. School financing, housing, parental stability all must enter the equation. To deny, however, that schools do not need to have some way of assessing teacher performance without layers of bureaucracy to remove bad teachers is unfair to students.

[YvonneCa]

40. Scientists design experiments and change (vary) one...

...variable at a time to determine cause and effect. If there were two variables, it would be impossible to know which one was producing the result.

In the 'school experiment' we want to know (and reward) the variable that will result in higher student test scores. If TEACHER was the only variable...and we could control for everything else (parental support, student motivation, student ability, home life, etc.)...the we could look at test scores and judge whether or not the teacher was excellent. But we can't. there are multiple variables affecting the result...the test scores.

I am not, and would never, say teachers should not be held accountable. I just think it will be VERY hard to control all the variables...and be FAIR to the teacher.

[mkultra]

45. so, please help me understand why a simple merit system isnt plausible

let me propose a simple system and tell me why its less effective than just giving teachers of all caliber the same raises over time.

Lets consider core subjects for just a moment and let us also consider that the goals of a teacher should be to inspire kids to learn and to increase either stored knowledge or technique mechanics.

Confine the comparable only withing a specific school. In other words, teachers should only be compared to others teachers in the same school.

A portion, perhaps 30%, of the teachers pay increase could be based on the evaluation.

Students would be checked at the beginning of the year with a simple test to judge the students competency.
Students would also take a similar test at the end of the year for comparison purposes.
The test would be simple and improvement on the test would be part of the students grade.
The teacher and the students would not be aware of the contents of the test before taking it.


Keep in mind that the "inspire" students component would be considered part of the teachers goals and pissed of kids that try to tank on purpose would be consider NOT inspired. Also, making the results part of the students grade means that if they tank the test on purpose, they can take the class in summer school.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. Sure there are.

They're called teacher evaluations.

Principals and others have been doing them for years.

It works. And it's not some failed gimmick that seedy politicians pawned off on a semi-literate public, like standardized testing.

[PVnRT]

47. Think so, huh?

My wife's former principle, when doing his "evaluations," sat in for a single class, worked on other stuff, then wrote glowing reports on all his teachers to make sure he looked good.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. And you know the teachers didn't deserve good evaluations because?

[PVnRT]

52. Well, if the principal isn't even paying attention, how would he know?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. How do you know the principal doesn't pay attention?

[mkultra]

55. its easy to surmise that not all deserved good evaluations.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. And you're a better person to judge that than the principal?

Ooo, sorry, no.

You've just earned yourself a poor evaluation.

[mkultra]

58. If the principle gives them ALL glowing evalutions, then yes

No working environment contains 100% perfection in its work force.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. Just how large of a pool do you think this sample is?

[mkultra]

69. You tell me.

Your the one challenging my assumptions with your own.

[jpgray]

62. By what criteria do you evaluate both an AP physics teacher and a remedial English teacher?

Let us count the problems:

Two entirely different subjects; one has elective participation the other decidedly does not; one is full of advantaged, ambitious students and the other is full of disinterested, disadvantaged students.

Physics teacher is expected to do better because of his/her advantageous class composition? English teacher is expected to do crummy because the kids are crummy? How good is "better" and how bad is "crummy?" How do you determine what a good teacher "should" be able to do with an utterly situational mash-up of students without obsessing over each teacher's relative class composition? If you have enough bad kids in your class can you essentially do nothing and be acclaimed a good teacher? Can you try everything and work your hardest and still be denounced as a bad teacher? Oh wait, that's what already happens in teacher evaluations today.

[amborin]

61. NO, and there is a HUGE scholarly lit on why it's impossible

many, many reasons why it's impossible....

starting with the vagaries of what kind of class a teacher gets any given year.....


covering many, many other factors why it's a very bad idea....

all the way up to what happens if it's implemented: teachers teaching toward the test (if test scores are the main criterion), to political cronyism (sucking up to the admins or whoever makes the decisions, etc......)

[QC]

64. Unfortunately, politicians and bureaucrats don't do scholarly literature.

It's funny how education is one of the few fields in which policy is made mostly by those who have little real knowledge of that field.

[Vidar]

63. No.

[ncteechur]

65. Yes, Value-added statistics. SEarch for EVAAS.

[ulysses]

67. thank you.

Exactly what I've been saying regarding the concept for years.

[ulysses]

68. dupe.

[last_texas_dem]

73. K and R. And no, I have yet to see any fair and accurate way of instituting

a "merit pay" system tied to student performance.