I'm sorry, but the merit pay issue is my first big disagreement with President Obama.

[Danger Mouse]

I can't express in stronger terms my displeasure with President Obama supporting this policy position. It shows an ignorance of the real problems facing our schools. When will they start doing merit pay for parents? Standardized tests are complete baloney as it is, but politicians like them because they like simple numbers that they can look at in a page and huff and puff over. Now they'll use these test scores to determine which teachers get higher pay than others? That's such a load of foul bullshit I don't even know where to start with it.
I'm very disappointed that President Obama is supporting this. I hope he sees the light and comes up with more sensible solutions to our education system in the future.

MY SUGGESTIONS:
1.) Focus on the family. Kids do better when their family is supportive and on top of things.
2.) Funding!!! Give schools the money they need.
3.) Teachers are overworked and underpaid as it is...being told by politicians and the media that our lousy education system is their fault doesn't make things better...it makes it worse. Stop looking at teachers as the problem and start looking at them as partners in working towards a solution.
4.) Stop forcing teachers to waste their time teaching to the test in order to meet the standards of NCLB. It's bad policy and should be scrapped.
5.) Class sizes! Teachers are having to deal with bigger and bigger groups of kids. It's tough to teach when the room is crowded and you have too many kids to really build rapports. This goes hand in hand with funding. If the money is there, there are more teachers, more classrooms, and thus fewer kids per class. This is really important!
6.) Be supportive of struggling teachers...not putative. I know people love to hear tough talk and finger pointing, but it's not helpful in this situation.
7.) Give more financial support to struggling schools, rather than letting them fall apart completely. What, Wall Street gets billions, but Main Street Elementary isn't worth throwing a bone to?

I work in Special Ed myself. How would our performances be judged? I'd love to hear that one. If they went by our standardized test scores, we wouldn't get a red cent. What a farce!

[uponit7771]

1. I don't support it if they don't give each teacher the ground work to win. 40 to 1 student teacher

...ratios is a formula for losing.

[SteppingRazor]

2. As I understand it, Obama's merit-pay idea doesn't rely on standardized tests...

but instead on the collective grades students receive in a given class. I don't know if that ameliorates your concerns at all, but I figured I'd at least mention it.

[Danger Mouse]

3. Not really.

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. Obama plans on using the Denver Merit pay rules, from another thread...

awards merit pay for:

1. Advanced degrees (already get higher pay in every district I know about)

2. Teaching in schools in problem neighborhoods (many already wave a teacher's student loans)

3. Achieving preset goals. As evaluated by the school's principal, rather than standardized tests.

Now apparently the Denver system failed because of lack of money. Instead of giving merit pay, it lowered the base pay.

Still, in principal this system could work if it were properly funded.

[Danger Mouse]

19. THAT system sounds good.

[DevonRex]

20. Yes. Denver is really hurting economically right now. But with Federal

government help, this could REALLY work. This does away with the inequities of teachers who work in schools with a stable student body and those who have a very transient student population. Also rewards teachers who are willing to work in those more challenging schools. They deserve so much more than we could EVER give them, but it's a start.

[Robb]

26. Indeed? Our new CO senator was an architect of that here.

Very interesting. I wonder if Bennet's been in on this with Obama from the get-go.

I'd always heard the system was a success, at least from the point of view of the local union. :shrug:

Edited to add: Bennet was appointed to Salazar's seat when he left for Interior, and he was Superintendent of Denver Public Schools before that. Freakin' huge district.

[PassingFair]

15. A's all around! n/t

[roguevalley]

30. Imagine what that means. If you have the average class in America

then you have maybe 10% (probably high) of kids above grade average, 40% (probably high) kids at average and the rest at varying degrees of below average skills, some (more than you can imagine) who score 1-5% on standardized tests. Average in the autistic and special ed and emotionally impaired kids who don't/won't/would but don't know how to learn and imagine that final score. Imagine how many teachers would get a bonus of merit pay. Give teachers good pay and leave merit out. That is the recipe for cheating.

rv, 27 years in the classroom and who had these classes for most of my career. I would like to say I loved kids who were challenging because they have the greatest potential if you can get them going. They almost always did. However, I would never have been given merit pay. Ever. Does that make me less of a teacher than those with more fortunate configurations? No, but that is the way it is.

[bluestateguy]

4. 8) Get rid of the bad kids; the troublemakers who sell drugs, start fights and refuse to learn

Do what Joe Clark did in the movie "Lean on Me" and dump the worst, most chronic troublemakers and violent kids.

[Danger Mouse]

9. My program would get those kids probably.

:P
Hey, whatever keeps our doors open!

[PassingFair]

16. Yeah, and the DUMB ones, too!

:sarcasm:

[BlooInBloo]

5. No teacher ever wants to be judged by their results. Yes, we know that.

[Danger Mouse]

8. Are you a teacher?

[BlooInBloo]

17. I was. For about 7-8 years. Why do you ask?

[Danger Mouse]

18. Just asking, since a lot of people who know nothing about the field...

seem to have a lot to say about it.
While your initial statement is true of some...
it doesn't make Obama's policy a good one.

[BlooInBloo]

22. Ah.

[ProSense]

6. Did you not know that was his position?

2007

2008


Edit to add info from Whitehouse.gov:

Reward Teachers: Obama and Biden will promote new and innovative ways to increase teacher pay that are developed with teachers, not imposed on them. Districts will be able to design programs that reward with a salary increase accomplished educators who serve as a mentors to new teachers. Districts can reward teachers who work in underserved places like rural areas and inner cities. And if teachers consistently excel in the classroom, that work can be valued and rewarded as well.

From Obama's speech yesterday:

Here is what that commitment means: It means treating teachers like the professionals they are while also holding them more accountable – in up to 150 more school districts. New teachers will be mentored by experienced ones. Good teachers will be rewarded with more money for improved student achievement, and asked to accept more responsibilities for lifting up their schools. Teachers throughout a school will benefit from guidance and support to help them improve.

And just as we have to give our teachers all the support they need to be successful, we need to make sure our students have the teacher they need to be successful. That means states and school districts taking steps to move bad teachers out of the classroom. Let me be clear: if a teacher is given a chance but still does not improve, there is no excuse for that person to continue teaching. I reject a system that rewards failure and protects a person from its consequences. The stakes are too high. We can afford nothing but the best when it comes to our children’s teachers and to the schools where they teach.

[paulk]

31. does that mean the OP isn't entitled to an opinion?

what's your point?

[ProSense]

33. Did I say that? Obviously, the point escapes you.

From the OP:

I can't express in stronger terms my displeasure with President Obama supporting this policy position. It shows an ignorance of the real problems facing our schools. ...I'm very disappointed that President Obama is supporting this. I hope he sees the light and comes up with more sensible solutions to our education system in the future.

That reads like a statement by someone who just discovered Obama's position on merit pay, one he has emphasized for since 2007, including a 2008 speech before the NEA.

[paulk]

40. even if the the OP "just discovered" Obama's position

which seems a pretty subjective analysis on your part

I don't see how that is relevant to disagreeing with Obama's position.

[dsc]

34. I knew it was his position

but when I pointed it out back in the primaries I was often called a deluded liar.

[ProSense]

35. He supports merit pay. Still

if you knew his exact position and characterized it as supporting standardized testing, then I would understand the responses.

It's clear the mischaracterization continues. It's also clear that the AFT doesn't have an issue with Obama's position.

[dsc]

36. the fact is he has yet to define it or even say if he will

99.9% of merit pay plans are either standardized test scores, evaluations of principals, or a combination of those two and both have severe problems. The simple fact is that it is very hard, if not impossible, to quantify merit in a rational way in regards to teaching. That is why merit pay is thought of so poorly by teachers.

[polichick]

7. Your suggestions are good ones!

[polichick]

10. A change I'd like to see in schools is ZERO tolerance for bullies...

...and that includes all the football heros.

[Danger Mouse]

11. I think that's a good idea. My program actually specifically targets bullying...

with VERY harsh measures. We don't allow bullies. We break them.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

13. Same here.

I'm not a teacher, but I appreciate what they go through and how they're often scapegoated and unappreciated. IMHO, there is no way to accurately assess merit pay.

[masuki bance]

14. "It's time to start rewarding good teachers, stop making excuses for bad ones"

"Despite resources that are unmatched anywhere in the world, we've let our grades slip, our schools crumble, our teacher quality fall short, and other nations outpace us ... What's at stake is nothing less than the American dream."... -Obama

"We can't continue to give federal funds to schools without accountability tied to that federal support"- Antonio Villaraigosa


Here is some idea of how this will work-

...The Kauffman Foundation sponsored research by the Center for Teaching Quality that worked with Kansas educators to form a framework for what it called “strategic compensation.”

An evaluation of teachers needs to gather factors beyond test scores, the center’s report said. It called for numerous measurements of knowledge and skills, student growth, demonstration of leadership and teaching in subjects or in schools with higher needs.

From this work, Kansas is working toward a state regulation that would create a “teacher leader license,” said Kansas Education Commissioner Alexa Posny...
http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics/story/1079120.html

[CreekDog]

21. No need to say sorry

:hi:

Don't apologize for your opinions.

My first take on merit pay is that I don't like it, but I'll wait for the details before I get too upset.

Just because in the past it has been used as a wedge against teacher's unions civil service rules, and in punitive ways doesn't mean it must do that. But we'll see.

[MarjorieG]

23. Campaigned about merit, but having better way of measuring than student tests.

We are trying to develop a whole system of serious and funded programs and learning environments, dealing with crumbling schools and unions which are doing their advocacy job, but obstructionist also.

[Life Long Dem]

24. If I don't get the merit, no one does.

Sorry, but that's what it looks like to me.

[Danger Mouse]

27. Personally? I don't really care.

[LittleClarkie]

25. Did you not know this was the way he leaned on this issue before now?

He went before a teacher's union and discussed merit pay. The cajones it took to do that was one of the reasons I rather liked the guy. He didn't seem to be afraid to discuss unpopular ideas with the very people such ideas were unpopular WITH. (if that makes sense)

Anyway, if you supported Obama in the primaries, and this issue is of special interest to you, I'm surprised you don't seem to have known how Obama felt way before this.

[ncteechur]

28. Well, there is some truth to what you say but some whining, too.

Are there poor parents? Sure, but parent send us the best they have. They don't keep their best students home and sent the "bad" ones to school.

All kids should get good teachers. Bad teachers should not be able to hide behind tenure granted by bad administrators or teacher unions just because they are teachers.

Teaching to the test is not necessarily a bad thing IF the test is aligned to state/national standards.

It is tax money and taxpayers do have a reasonable expectation to have competent folks instructing the students.

Funding is not a panacea. Funding cannot replace good ideas and good instruction.

There are already people in every school building who are carrying the load in the building. Go in any school. It may be painful to point out those who may not be pulling their weight but they are there. Merit pay may reward those shoulders on which the school rest.

I do agree that merit pay based on a single test score is not the answer, but there are reliable models of processes that work. In NC we are trying out EVAAS, a value-added statistical model that looks at growth of similar cohorts of students.

[Hippo_Tron]

29. He's doing all of those things, except getting rid of NCLB

But politically in order to sell a major re-investment in our public schools he also has to throw in some not so traditionally liberal ideas like merit pay and charter schools. And the merit pay system is based on the Denver system which you stated above is pretty good.

Obama has a pretty comprehensive approach to education. I don't doubt that many here will disagree with the merit pay idea but it is only one part of his plan.

[GeorgeGist]

32. How do you grade your students ...

if not by merit?

[sohndrsmith]

37. First off, I admit to being really ignorant on this matter (so I'm posting to ask a question):

... and I feel doubly dumb because several of my family members are/were teachers.

In my naive thinking, I thought to myself, "What's so odd about merit pay? Isn't that what any other career or profession relies on to some extent (salesmen earn higher commissions with better sales, people get raises for excellence, better performance, etc., so what's the problem?)". I wasn't taking into account many of the factors that didn't occur to me - so now I have no clue and won't attempt to make a reasonable statement on what is or is not good or bad about merit pay for teachers.

But I do have a question (and I'll say up front that I'm not even sure it's a fair one) but I'm going to ask it anyway:

----
Q: Is there no way to determine or recognize who is - or is not - a "good" teacher? Is it impossible to discern a difference between two teachers who basically have the same class size, challenges, difficulties, etc.? Can there be different outcomes based on the teacher's effectiveness or expertise or experience or is that completely unfair? If it's unfair, what criteria would you use to determine excellence in the field? (Seems to me basing this on standardized testing borders on the absurd at best).
----

I hope teachers respond to my question, because they know far more about this than I do. Can you tell who among your peers are good at what they do? How is that measured - or how do YOU measure it? Does it correlate with student performance - or not - or sometimes?

I'm honestly curious, and don't mean to sound facetious. (I am personally indebted to the excellence of one particular educator - my mother, who is just finishing her last of 41 years of teaching).

[Kablooie]

38. But the big difference is that Obama ENCOURAGES discussion of alternative plans to his.

So expressing your thoughts is valid and useful.

[trayfoot]

39. Good post! I, also, split with President Obama on this issue.