"Merit pay" is an Orwellian term, sugar-coated PR-speak for "let's get rid of tenure"

[brentspeak]

That's the insult that goes with the injury - it's understood that merit pay's advocates are disingenuous. Any working person who's ever had to deal with managers who sell employees on rah-rah "incentives" knows that the unspoken flip-side of failing to achieve those incentive goals means that the employees' jobs are then on the line.

[CTLawGuy]

1. yay

let's not reward anyone who works hard and stands out!

<Dons flamesuit and helmet>

[ulysses]

3. overly simplistic in a time of NCLB.

Maybe in a saner era.

[CTLawGuy]

5. "merit pay"

is a vague term and can be done many ways. I'm happier with it if Obama is writing the plan vs. a Republican, that way it won't be designed to disfavor teachers with a more challenging environment or hurting teachers overall.

[ulysses]

11. yes, it's vague and likely meant to be.

that way it won't be designed to disfavor teachers with a more challenging environment or hurting teachers overall

Get back to me after it's implemented.

[CTLawGuy]

16. fine I will

glad to see you have faith in our president...

[ulysses]

18. I'm not a big one for faith in politicians.

Sorry, but that way lies madness.

[brentspeak]

6. Then have a system like they do in Finland: bonus pay AND tenure

[CTLawGuy]

7. agreed

don't want to make ANY teachers WORSE off, but we want to reward good teachers.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

2. I totally agree nt

[rurallib]

4. And "charter schools" is code for "screw the teachers union and

still get public money."
I heard KO in the background (think it was KO) come out for both those an=d I thought "O sweet jesus".

[NYC_SKP]

15. Funny, all the teachers at the charter school nearest me are union members.

And their contracts deduct union dues whether they join or not.

How bout them apples, hm?

People talk about charter schools like they are all the same.

The whole point of many charters is to have the freedom to approach kids differently and with innovative techniques.

Let's not kill them.

[CTLawGuy]

19. don't you know Obama

is a union-hating secret Republican?

[ProSense]

8. Tenure is why UC-Berkeley is having trouble getting rid of Yoo.

Protect failure at all cost.

I'm sure tenure can withstand a system that doesn't allow oafs to continue teaching. Maybe the policy will be implemented going forward, taking that into consideration and guaranteeing that people who aren't cut out to be teachers aren't around long enough to become tenured.

[NorCalDem]

60. To be fair...

tenure at a university is dramatically different than tenure in K-12 education. For one, Yoo taught at Baolt LAW SCHOOL, where students PAY thousands of dollars per year to attend. College and K-12 education are dramatically different.

Also, UC Berkeley never really wanted to can Yoo (I am a PhD student at Berkeley, and I definitely remember the Yoo protests). The student body did, but thankfully universities are smart enough to not give the student body hiring/firing power. Berkeley is the birthplace of the free speech movement, what would it look like to outsiders if we started firing those we disagreed with?

I hate Yoo as much as the next guy, but to use his extraordinary circumstances as an argument as to why tenure is bad is ludicrous...

[msongs]

gee can we fire the underperfoming students too? nt

[stray cat]

14. No - we graduate them into the workforce - no accountability for students or teachers

[rwheeler31]

9. Merit pay , flex time, health savings accounts,and on and on,

anything to get rid of pay increases, its the republican way.

[masuki bance]

10. Obama does not equal Orwell

..."He called for “treating teachers like the professionals they are while also holding them more accountable.” Good teachers would get more money and “be asked to accept more responsibility for lifting up their schools.”

At the same time, he said, it’s up to school districts “to move bad teachers out of the classroom.”

“Let me be clear: If a teacher is given a chance but still does not improve, there is no excuse for that person to continue teaching,” Obama said. “I reject a system that rewards failure and protects a person from consequences.”...
http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics/story/1079120.html

[Danger Mouse]

12. Obama = Orwellian. Obama = Reagan.

Why don't you finish the job, and for your next OP, go for Obama = Hitler to hit the trifecta.

[Cant trust em]

17. He's also bisexual

Didn't you see that Daily Show clip?

[NYC_SKP]

21. Oh, great. That's just fucking great.

It was supposed to stay a secret until next week.

You ruined it. :P

[Bucky]

40. Pssssst

<== the story already broke

[stray cat]

13. How many people here can work 3-4 years and then do nothing and never get fired?

no wonder are school systems are failing. I love tenure but if you stop doing anything competent after getting it you should be canned - its unjust to the students to do anything less.

[JCMach1]

30. More anti-union rhetoric...

jeesh

[dcindian]

32. Sometimes you wonder if you are on a Democratic board.

The anti union crowd here is amazing.

[JCMach1]

55. Precisely...

[QC]

66. This is a Democratic board? n/t

[Dinger]

36. Yup.

Sheesh, this thread . . . I better not say it.

[AZBlue]

62. Wow...you can read invisible ink? On a computer monitor??

Because that's the only way you saw the word "union" in that post.

[NorCalDem]

56. Funny, considering...

what you posted IS NOT the case for teachers either....

[Leo The Cleo]

67. Very True

They hide behind tenure. People in other professions work based on productivity and competence, I can't see why people charged (by law) to educated children shouldn't work on merit. Productivity is supposed to be the way of the work place. Let teachers earn their pay. Those who are earning it will benefit. Those who aren't won'. I don't see a problem with asking teachers to earn their keep.

[GeorgeGist]

20. In colleges and universities ...

tenured professors get merit pay.

[NorCalDem]

58. which isn't a problem...

considering people PAY to go to college and not every child goes to college.

K-12 education is dramatically different than college...

[mkultra]

22. demagoguery

[Odin2005]

23. The criticism of it is sounding like PR speak for "lets coddle mediocre teachers".

And let me tell you, when I was in school in the 90s and early 00s most of my teachers WERE mediocre nitwits that failed to keep order in the classroom and mistook critical thinking for an attack on their authority. Sorry, I have little sympathy for the PR spin from the defenders of mediocrity.

[smalll]

24. "failed to keep order in the classroom" --

And just how were they supposed to do that? Every student knows they can be as physical as they want and the teacher can never even put a hand on anyone. No one can be forced to go to detention. And call the parents? Ha! That's a laugh and a half -- today's slobbering "parents" veging out in front of the bigscreen in their sweatpants and Crocs back up their precious Jaydens and Madisons no matter what atrocity the little shits committed.

[Odin2005]

26. Yep, the parents throw a hissy fit because "Junior is a perfect angel who would never...

...get into trouble" and the school capitulates to the parents. Fuck that sh*t. On issue I had when I was high school is that the the school bent over backwards to make sure the jocks never got in trouble, that, more then anything else, simply enraged my parents and I.

[sense]

29. Absolutely!

Critical thinking isn't taught and is actively discouraged.

[NorCalDem]

59. Regarding...

"Critical thinking isn't taught and is actively discouraged."

To be fair, that has more to do with standardized testing and "teaching to the test" than tenure and 'merit pay' arguments....

[backscatter712]

25. Not quite sure I agree with you, but I'm skeptical of merit-pay too.

I don't think anyone here supports getting rid of tenure.

I think that too often, people don't know what's in these merit pay bills. They see the words "merit pay" and think "Hey, let's give extra money to the really good teachers - great idea!"

But you're right on the Orwellian part - I've seen too many of these buzzwords to really believe that "merit pay" is as simple as giving the really good teachers more money - it turns into some byzantine scheme that ends up being abused by Republicans to screw all the teachers.

So far, I don't know how to implement a scheme of "Let's reward the really really good teachers with extra money!" that doesn't end up being open to abuses down the road, like say using merit-pay as an excuse to cut base-pay, or making the criteria for earning merit-pay nearly impossible to achieve, or basing the criteria on things the teachers have little or no control over, or forcing the teachers to compete with each other and cut each other off at the knees, or so on.

[Leo The Cleo]

27. I am an advocate for Merit Pay

I've seen school with teachers who were not dedicated and hid behind tenure. I am all for merit pay.

[dcindian]

31. Another parent who can't seem to raise their kids right.

Me three top three students. Sent the first to Duke second likely to go to Cornell third one just a sophmore and I have never seen a grade below an A from my three.


Bad teachers? Good teachers? Bad public schools?

LOL


Just bad parents.

[Leo The Cleo]

61. Listen Up

Regardless of good parenting, teachers should hold their own. They should be good. Good parenting is what society should have with each individual who has a child. Good work is what society should have with each individual who has a jobs. If teachers are teaching poorly then they should not have a job. No person should be paid (or paid well) for unsatisfactory work.

[olkaz]

49. It's pretty common.

In my job, we receive performance reviews regularly, and our pay is tied to our performance.

OMG isn't that awful?

[EmilyAnne]

28. After reading as many DU threads about merit pay that I can find, I am left with the impression

that a lot of teachers posting here are very unhappy.

Some of these apparently unhappy teachers have written nasty things about students and their parents.
They warn of the jealousy, rivalry and politics that goes on as teachers and administration are pitted against one another, saying that it will get even worse with a merit pay system.
They see the administration as uniquely selfish and incompetent.

As someone who had an extremely verbally abusive teacher in the fourth grade who crushed my already fragile self -esteem on an almost daily basis, I want there to be a way to get rid of teachers who really don't like kids. I never had behavior problems, but rather was too quiet (shy) when answering questions. So, she decided to humiliate me to combat my shyness. Great strategy.
More than ten years later, I would still bump into classmates from that time who would remind me of how awful she was to me.

Two years after teaching me, she actually had to take a leave of absence to get therapy, having acknowledged to the administration that she had "problems with girls." Why was that same woman back teaching in the same school by the time my brothers were attending it? How many other little girls did she harass and humiliate because she just had a problem with girls?

Then there is the 7th grade theater arts teacher who told us that a fellow student moved because she was a "slut." And she used the class as an audience for her stream of consciousness accounts of her hostile divorce. Detailed accounts, week by week, recounting his accusations that she was a lesbian who tried to seduce her sister-in-law, that she crashed their car on purpose, that she was calling him and hanging up and that she was crazy to think he was having an affair with his secretary. And she told us about why she thought he was having an affair and about a pair of underwear she found in his car. This woman was insane and had no place being in a school. None at all. Nevertheless, she remained and, almost 20 years later, she was still there.

And there is my cousin's wife who teaches 1st graders. To teach one of them a lesson for pooping his pants, she forced the child to wear the dirty pants all day. The child ended up with horrible, rashy welts on his buttocks that caused scarring. Did my cousin's wife get fired? Hell, no. She was subjected to a (gasp) meeting.
It makes me sick to even look at her knowing that she is such an incompetent bitch.

All of the things I mentioned above were reported by parents, corroborated by students and confessed to by the teachers. Yet, they remained at the schools.
What other sort of job allows for such horrible behavior to go unpunished?
I want to know exactly why teachers aren't out and out fired for being BAD teachers?

Obviously, these are not typical teachers. I could also write about the 11th grade English teacher who literally changed the course of my life. She inspired me in ways that are still a part of who I am today. Was she doing it in hopes of getting a big fat raise? Of course, not. But, damn, if raises were to be handed out, she deserved one.

[Danger Mouse]

33. There's two sides to every story.

[EmilyAnne]

34. And in the cases I mentioned, there were inappropriate and even cruel actions on the part of

teachers on one side and the children on the other.

I think merit pay should be worked out in a way that does reward good teachers and does not reward the jerks who seem to have a lot of hostility towards their children and the children's parents.

I think its ridiculous to think that being a good public school teacher is impossible to ascertain because of all the complex and imperceptible things that go into it. Complex and imperceptible things that only another teacher will understand. Only another teacher that is against merit pay, that is.

This is such a strange issue to me.
Teachers need across the board raises and they have for too long.
Merit pay will not take the place of that.
Merit pay does not mean that there will be punitive pay cuts.

[dcindian]

35. Where does merit pay come from?

Did I miss the part where every community in this country just got richer? Did the housing bubble not happen? Did I miss the downward wage pressure for all working class Americans?


Think about it.

There is no more money then what communities had last year. Merit pay has always been temporary when implemented. The idea is to get it in the door only to come back and lower wages overall in the long run and bust the unions.

Merit pay may work for rich communities with lots of monies for school budgets, but it sure the hell won't work in my small town of 1000. And it won't work for 90% of school districts in America.

Crap we have this ideal that somehow paying a low wage and giving bonuses is the way to go with such a vital profession and it just does not pass the smell test. And I am sorry but there is no magic bullet there is no magic bucket of monies for merit pay.

[EmilyAnne]

38. So now the argument against merit pay is that there isn't enough money?

This is at least rational.
Are you also against across the board pay raises for teachers as well?

Your other argument seems to be that since money doesn't fix everything, merit related pay raises should not be offered?
Merit pay is only acceptable if it will fix everything?
Otherwise, screw it?
Who on earth would think of this as a magic bullet? There are so many other things that need to be done as far as teacher support and even parental support. That doesn't mean that merit pay is therefore a bad thing.

Regardless, most arguments against merit pay are so incredibly cynical it makes me afraid for our children.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. What do you do for a living?

Seriously. Do you work for a living?

[EmilyAnne]

43. I teach english to refugees and other immigrants.

My refugee students have been from Bosnia, other ex-Soviet republics, Somalia, Sudan, Rwanda, Burma and the Congo.
It pays very little, but I wouldn't want to do anything else at this time and my cost of living in Pittsburgh is very low.

I teach a group of elderly, Jewish, Russian speakers who have been here for years without really learning the language. Its a conversational class.

I taught english in Russia for a few years, in Madrid for nine months and in Paris for just under a year.

I have also taught health in rural Oaxaca state, the Dominican Republic, and Ecuador.

I have considered going into public teaching, but I don't think I would love it as much as I love what I do now.
Still, I have no job security nor benefits.
My "merit pay" comes in the form of getting more classes and having students ask to remain with me as they move to the next level.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. And how is you worth as a teacher metered out?

Are you tested? If your students, who have lived here for years without learning, don't learn, is that your fault?
I only asked because I have never once seen any feild where the 'merit' of one could be fairly tested by others without all sorts of politics and discrimination being involved. That is not to say that failures can not be weeded out, but the idea of raises and retentions being subject to any form of popular vote or rigid test is insane, and is a pathway to mediocrity. The mediocre becomes the goal, the only safe path, the unlimate sucess, mediocrity.

[EmilyAnne]

51. That sounds so cynical, Bluenorthwest. I'm not saying that YOU are cynical nor that you are even

wrong.
It just seems strange to automatically assume politics and discrimination will rule the decisions. If that is truly the kind of system that is waiting just beneath the surface in the average public school, then there are major problems that should be addressed.

Actually, I assume that it isn't waiting beneath the surface but rather is already a very integral and damaging aspect of working in a public school, even without rewards/ merits/ salaries being involved. Why else would so many teachers see it as an inevitability? I would bet they are already either participating in it, witnessing it or being made miserable by it. An awful thought.

My merit is judged on how my students do on tests, student feedback and drop out rates. Still, its always case by case. If a few students drop out because they don't like me or think I am a not really helping them, then I'm sure I would have to talk to the director about things from my perspective. If a student drops out because of a change in employment or apathy (very common with some who get so overwhelmed with their experience), then its obvious that its out of my hands.

Some of my students, god love them, will never advance too much because its extremely difficult to learn a new language at an older age. Its not impossible, but very difficult. If its not a matter of survival as in the case of my younger refugees, they seem to tread water at the same level. My Russian students are perfect examples. Some of them claim to have been studying english for 40 years! The still can not make the "TH" sound nor use articles like "the, an, a." They enjoy the class for its social and entertainment value. Its something to do, they meet other immigrants, they like me, they ask a lot of random questions unrelated to language about American culture such as why do Americans like to do "free work." They were referring to volunteering, by the way. The class is a lot of fun, there are no tests and its the only way to determine if I am doing my job well is if they bring in friends because my class is just that great. LOL.

[RobinA]

63. Merit Pay

Is pretty much BS no matter where you are.

[LBJDemocrat]

72. Bosnia is an ex-Soviet republic?

Are you serious?

[NYC_SKP]

52. I really like your post, wish it was an OP. There's too much generalization going on here.

And people are way too lockstep against "merit pay" (as if there was a monolithic definition for it), and against charter schools.

Schools, teachers, and communities are all as different as kids themselves, and broadbrushing just isn't productive.

The system is broken, too many awful teachers keep their jobs while great teachers struggle against a system that doesn't reward their efforts.

Great teaching usually happens despite the bureaucracy that "guides" them.

I left the profession to work for a non-profit that provides resources to teachers who wish to use them, so I see good charter schools and shitty ones, and good districts and dysfunctional ones.

Thanks for your post in this thread.

NYC_SKP

[Dinger]

37. It Sure Is

And K & R brentspeak for having the guts to post the truth here. madfloridian comes to mine too.

[Bucky]

39. I'm a teacher and I like merit pay. It is not code-speak for attacking teachers

It's problematic, of course, and it should never be used to replace base salaries or tenure. But part of the Republican philosophy of ignoring education has left us with some pockets of mediocre and substandard teachers--and many more teachers who could be excellent but are demoralized by official neglect and lack of teaching resources.

The president's plan seems to be right on the money, far as I can see.

[hlthe2b]

42. In concept it implies rewarding for excellence in performance...

In practice (in every setting I have seen it applied) it implies political rewarding and patronage... And for anyone who has not seen the manipulative forces inherent in "office politics," it may be more subtle than a hammer, but no less lethal.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

44. You ever heard of something called "rubber rooms"?

They happen because of tenure. Rather than simply firing ineffective or abusive teachers, schools are forced to basically send the teachers to detention, where they get paid not to teach. It's animalistic, but it's what happens when you can't do anything about tenure.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

45. Also, isn't it funny that you hold up tenure yet shoot down merit pay?

Tenure is based almost entirely on politics, and yet you oppose merit pay because teachers fear that it will be based on politics. Seems a very inconsistent argument.

[Marrah_G]

46. Much like the Anti-Choice protesters down the street from my house.

They are out there every day with "Pray to end abortion" signs.

What they REALLY mean is "pray to give us legal control of your female body".

I give them the finger every day.

[ShortnFiery]

47. Agreed. I don't care much for "the term."

However, given that Obama plays mental chess to the GOP's checkers. I'm holding out hope that it's just a way to distract the more shrill counter voices.

[AngryAmish]

50. Tenure at the high school level is stupid

Nobody deserves a job for life.

Teachers have union and/or civil service protection.

Many teachers are worse than useless. Firing them is next to impossible.

[KansasVoter]

54. I agree!

[NYC_SKP]

53. "Merit Pay" is like abstract art: different meanings to different people, and often just flamebait.

Both sides throw the term about as if it had a concrete definition.

The devil's in the details, teachers benefit from merit pay already in many districts that raise the scale based on post degree units earned or provide a masters degree stipend.

The same is true with charter schools, there is no single monolithic "charter school" model.
Some specialize in serving students who are rejected by traditional districts.

I call bullshit on those who use these terms in broad-brushing over-generalizing ways!

But not on this OP, which makes an interesting point.

:toast:

[ljm2002]

57. Thanks for breaking it down...

...and pointing out the real agenda.

Anytime you have an idea that is promoted by the right wing, or even the conservative wing of the Democratic party, especially if it concerns teachers or unions, you have to look under the covers and find out what they are really selling.

They will use some term that they know will play well in Peoria, and then they'll push it for all it's worth. They'll appeal to their listeners' "reasonable" side, at least on the surface -- but they're really appealing to the emotional level and establishing the frame. Pretty soon this is seen as the baseline position and anyone who opposes it is being hysterical, unreasonable, and wants special treatment for whatever group is under attack.

If only we could have honest debates, it would be so much better. If they want to remove tenure, they ought to come right out and say so, and then we could have that debate.

[sampsonblk]

64. Screw that

I am not disingenuous. I want some form of merit pay. And I am pro-union. But the education system is ridiculous.

[DailyGrind51]

65. CEOs and investment bankers don't receive "merit pay", why should teachers?

Public school teachers don't get to pick their students. Please forgive the analogies, but if carpenters were forced to build with rotten lumber or chefs compelled to cook with moldy meat, would they be held accountable for their results? One does the best with what one is given.

[CANDO]

68. It's an outright union busting tactic.

Tenure is only part of it. They want teachers to compete against one another and that'll tear down the solidarity in their ranks. This will lead to non-cooperation and over all decrease in the quality of education. Parents will bribe their way into certain teacher's classes for little Johnny based upon performance tables. This is not a good direction to be going in.

[Leo The Cleo]

69. Union Busting? Maybe. Maybe not!

I won't argue whether or not this is a union busting affair. I am all for Unions. I believe in them and think they need to be here. I also think that there is a large percentage of crap teachers in this county. I'd like to see the best and motivated teaching the children of this country.

[olegramps]

70. The case against tenure.

I hear those who speak out against tenure in which they may cite one case, or is often the case, they offer no supporting evidence.

Has there actually been a study conducted to demonstrate that tenured teachers are failures at their job? If such a person is grossly incompetent and they remain in a teaching position are people actually saying they can not be removed? I am inclined to doubt that there are not avenues to remove such a teacher. I can imagine some cases of gross incompetence, but I really wonder about these unsubstantiated claims that this constitutes a serious problem. There are people with mental problems in every profession so I am not too impressed with some anecdotal case about one such person who is a teacher. Perhaps some of these people should have attended Catholic Schools where you could get smacked around with the approval of your parents. I don't know of any cases of this happening in public schools when I went to school in the dark ages.

[MasonJar]

71. I just posted a long anti-merit pay diatribe above, so I am only going to

say here that most teachers are very dedicated and highly educated and quite excellent. The number of poor teachers is miniscule. They do not constitute the cause of the problems implicit in failing public schools. Politicians, bad principals, society, parents, policy and laissez faire student attitudes are much more complicit in the failure of America's education system than a small number of bad teachers. In Europe and Japan and those other countries which outshine us in education, there are consequences for slacking off in school. Futures are determined, and so education is taken seriously by society, politicians, parents and even students. As a recently retired teacher, I could give a litany of unfortunate episodes, but for just one example, my students couldn't study at night because they had to work to pay for insurance and gas for their cars. They might flunk, but they could buzz around town.