Why do we even have teachers?

[CTLawGuy]

All over this board I hear two arguments against "merit pay"

1) It's impossible to tell who the good teachers are and who the bad ones are so the system would be impossible to implement fairly.

2) Teachers have no (or little) control over the success of their students so it wouldn't see any results even if it were fairly implemented.

IF THESE ARGUMENTS ARE TRUE, then why do we pay people whose work we cannot evaluate and whose work makes no appreciable difference to students? Why not save money and get rid of all teachers, instead giving kids books to study?

*dons flamesuit and helmet and cowers behind rock*

----------------------------------------------------
In all seriousness, please think about what is implied from the arguments you make. I understand that not everyone likes unions and not everyone likes public schools, and many of these people favor "merit pay". That does not mean that any form of incentivizing hard work is automatically bad or meant to destroy unions or the public school system.

What is MORE likely to destroy both teachers' unions AND public schools is a sentiment among the public that teachers are ineffective (and unwilling to improve) and the public school system is a failure. If teachers and their unions are more willing to accept incentives to perform better, it can stave off this public sentiment.

[Starry Messenger]

1. Not everyone uses books to teach.

I teach ceramics. :D I like it because it is easy to see student results and progress.

[ZombieHorde]

7. I got an F in ceramics when I was in high school.

Our final project was a tea set. I made a tiny tiny tea set. I built the spout around a tooth pic so liquid could still be poured from the kettle. My teacher was pissed, he said I made a mockery of his assignment.

[Starry Messenger]

8. I'm sorry.

I know it's no comfort to you now, but I'm totally against that kind of pottery demagoguery. I would have given you an A for initiative and problem solving. That is my desired SLO. That project sounds awesome. :hug: Zombie.

[tkmorris]

22. Bonus points for coining "pottery demagoguery"

:applause:

[snowbear]

33. Ah Zombie that is sad!

.
.

Did you keep the tiny tea set?

What a jerk that teacher was!

I love miniatures and I'll bet your tea set was awesome!

I have 3 antique typeprinting boxes chock full of miniatures I've collected.

They kind of look like this:



Grrrr.. I feel like calling your teacher and chewing them out!!

I wonder if they'd remember what I was talking about?

[XemaSab]

40. Typesetting boxes!

I found one by the side of the road!

I am going to make a coffee table out of it. :D

[sandnsea]

37. My son got an F for making a big pizza

Because the assignment was to make mini pizzas.

[urgk]

117. Is that unfair? n/t

[Synicus Maximus]

146. sounds reasonable

[WinkyDink]

44. It sounds cute as the Dickens, like for a miniature house!

[iamthebandfanman]

54. hate it when instructors/teachers do that

especially in something that could be considered art.

its one thing to not follow directions to a T in a primary class...
but in a ceramic class?!
youd think youd be rewarded for being creative and making something functional

[firedupdem]

2. I understand what you are saying completely. I felt better about it

after reading a bit more today. I don't believe in teachers having to teach to a test and get certain scores. I do like the idea of additional training or some other incentives for educators. My mom taught and so did my sister. I am always on the teachers side but this is a tricky situation because there are so many variables. I'm hoping the teachers and the new administration continue to talk and come to some understanding on improving our schools for our children.

[jpgray]

3. I'd say rather it's impossible to quantify expected student success generally.

Because teacher success is rather defined by how they do with students, no? Continuing education is fine for extra pay, in my view, as is volunteering for extracurricular work with disadvantaged kids. But how do you create a generalized system that accurately determines how all the varied, situational classes out there are expected to perform with a decent teacher? Assuming you can do this, why not push out your lousy students to improve your rating if you're a teacher? They take an enormous investment for a very small return, and you could make more with a smaller, more advantaged group. If we attach dropout rates to the standards to avoid this dodge, that opens up another can of worms, since the unlucky newbie who shows up in a shit school may well get the class whose 15+% dropout rate has everything to do with their past experiences and nothing to do with the new teacher.

I'm waiting to hear some actual concrete standards that can hold up, that don't encourage teachers/admins to cook the books, and that don't encourage the school system to shit on disadvantaged kids at every opportunity and get paid more for it.

[QC]

4. So that "progressives" can have at least one group of organized laborers to hate.

It's amazing how many people here sound just like Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity when they start hissing about those wicked teacher unions.

[sense]

21. They are wicked!

Why is a union who's job it is to ensure teacher's have a good job environment and decent pay, allowed to dictate what will and will not be taught in schools and how and when it will happen. Unless you're at the bottom of the rung you cannot have a good experience at school because the attitude is that the only ones who need to be taught are the ones at the bottom! My state requires by law that all children be taught at their rate and level of learning, yet 98% of teachers and administrators refuse to even believe there are different levels and rates of learning. The dumbing down of American kids happens everyday, all day, in our schools because the unions protect the jobs of adults over the very lives of children. The children might as well be inanimate objects for all the consideration they get!

[QC]

28. Do you honestly believe that the union designs the curriculum and sets state policies?

The mind reels.

[sense]

30. They have their paws in everything.....

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sense]

38. Wingnut?

Yeah, I'm a wingnut... because you just don't like my views. My children are school age, I know more than enough about what goes on and how the NEA works. The NEA, if you even read my posts, is the only union I'm against and it's only because they're protecting toxic teachers. You sound paranoid...don't worry, I'm nothing like your sister. My son's public school provided bullying and harassment because my son wanted to learn, and that was in addition to what the kids did to him. The teacher's union protects teachers who should not be anywhere near children, let alone abusing them at will.

Lecturing? Not everyone who doesn't share your view has some weird ulterior motive.... or is a wingnut. :-)

[trayfoot]

50. I strongly disagree with your comments.

The dumbing down of American kids happens everyday, all day, in our schools because the unions protect the jobs of adults over the very lives of children.

********************************

Unions DO NOT determine what is taught or how it is taught! Unions do NOT protect the jobs of adults over children. This is political hogwash! Unions DO do research into sound teaching methods, and they DO insure that teachers' "due process" rights are observed. If administrators weren't so damned lazy, they could get rid of every ineffective teacher! They are lazy and they don't want to do the "heavy lifting" of documentation.

[sense]

58. Dumbing down

NEA may do research and the schools themselves may. If you don't put the methods into action, research does you no good. I'm not talking about all unions, just NEA.

[Exilednight]

142. I've worked with Teachers Unions and believe it or not ...........

they do have a say over ciriculam. I have witnessed, first hand, as teachers unions batter down PTA groups to include or exclude certain textbooks.

Administrators do not have as much power as some would believe when it comes to getting rid of teachers. I've watched as heads of districts have produced phone book size files of reasons why teach x, y and z should be terminated, but in the end nothing happens because no one wants to argue with the union and painted in an anti-union color. The first thing the Teachers Union does is put forward a campaign of "school board chairman x is anti-union" and then proceed to tear down the individual instead of looking at the evidence.

I am all for the union providing a safe and clean working environment for teachers, it also produces a safe and clean environment for the students, but it's dishonest to say that the Teachers Unions do not overstep their bounds or don't have a say as to what is or is not taught in our schools.

[knitter4democracy]

72. I taught in a non-union school for two years. Never again.

You can revile the NEA all you want, but having taught in a non-union school, I can assure that the other option is worse. Without a union, bad teachers who are great at kissing up to the principal will keep their jobs while the good ones are harrassed into leaving. Without a union, the students can start a movement to get a teacher fired (simply because I graded hard and gave out too much homework--which I was told to do by my boss) and come darn close to succeeding. Without a union, teachers can get screamed at, threatened, and harrassed into early labor (I was preggers in my last year and had to go on home rest, it was so bad).

Btw, every single teacher I know (and I know plenty) believes that students have different learning styles and rates. Every single one. That's what I was taught in college, as well, with the latest in brain research backing it up. The problem is, the damn tests don't take that into account, so you have to get all the students to the same level at the same time. The problem isn't the teachers but the damn tests.

[Exilednight]

143. Hold on a sec ..........

Without a union, teachers can get screamed at, threatened, and harrassed

This could happen in any school, with or without a union, and there is recourse for both. With or without a union, you are eligible to file a complaint with proper authorities, namely the Department of Labor.

[kwassa]

80. Your information about the teachers union is way, way off.

You ascribe all kinds of power to the union that doesn't exist. Most of the complaint you have in your post should be aimed at the administration of your school, the superindendent of schools, and the school board, not the teachers union. The union only determines working conditions and the relationships arrived by agreement between teachers and administrators, not what is taught.

I haven't read such an uninformed complaint it quite awhile. Virtually everything you say in your post is factually wrong.

[byrok]

111. Bullshit. That's all I can say about your post.

Just absolute bullshit. You have no clue. Try commenting on a subject that you understand, because you obviously haven't got a clue about education. I can't even speak to dumb shit like this.

[Dr. Strange]

101. I thought we hated cops.

Or are they not unionized?

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. That was last week

But I still hate cops :)

[Dr. Strange]

109. When do we get around to hating Gilbert Gottfried?

'Cause I got a lot of Gilbert hate just waiting to be posted.

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. I'll keep my eyes open for you

[QC]

125. Beat you to it. I got started on that twenty years ago.

Excellent idea, though. Maybe you can hate Pauly Shore.

[zeemike]

5. I will just stand by with a fire extinguisher.

this anti teacher anti public school reminders me of way back when the John Birchers started this campaign to destroy public education. Then the reason was that it was a communist conspiracy but I see they have refined it somewhat.

[sense]

23. History of modern schooling

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

I'm not against the idea of public education, I'm all for it, but I think we do not know what the real intention is. We all think it's about making sure everyone gets a decent education, but it's really about making a herd of workers who don't know how to think and therefor are easy to control.

Most unions are good. The NEA has gone far beyond obtaining good working conditions for teachers.... children and education are irrelevant to them.

[BadgerKid]

6. Good teachers can convey context and relevance.

Good students can meet teachers half way.

This might mean teachers need ongoing education themselves, which is where I could see merit pay entering in.

IMVHO of course. I'm not a formal educator.

[roguevalley]

10. if people did sit in a classroom for a year and tried to do this job, they would

get it. this is the most thankless job on planet earth and everyone thinks they are an expert because they were in fifth grade once.

[Blue_Tires]

19. +1

i used to be a substitute and it completely changed my perception of what some teachers go through on a daily basis...i only thought i knew, but now i know....

[sense]

25. You don't know what "everyone" thinks!

I am an expert about my child, and I also happen to have home schooled him for 7 years after 4 years of trying to get any sort of education out of his teachers. Only 1 teacher every tried to teach him. All the rest were just ticked that he wouldn't quit asking questions and insisting on harder work! One of them even wrote a huge complaint about how my 8 year old was ruining her marriage!!

[roguevalley]

59. Fine. Good for you. I was speaking of my own multi decade experience

as for you, speak for yourself. I am not speaking for you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. It's pretty hard to take you seriously.

But tell us how your kid ruined his teacher's marriage.

That sounds like a funny story.

[sense]

96. Even though she produced only

two things for him to do that were not strictly her third grade curriculum she claimed she was spending so much time on him, that her marriage was suffering. Right. That was an 8 yr. old's fault.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

98. So... she went above and beyond the call of duty for your child...

doing things that weren't in the curriculum, and she spent a large portion of her own time...

And you're saying she's a bad teacher?

[sense]

106. NO.

The point is that she didn't even do her job. She is required, by law. to provide an education for every child in her class at their rate and level of learning. She only provide the canned curriculum she decided on for that year. She didn't remotely spend "a lot of her time" doing anything for my child. She did go out of her way to deny him what he needed, to "teach" him only what he already knew (which couldn't be described as teaching, by definition). She was angry that he would not just shut up and do busy work six hours a day, 5 days a week. If I insistd on "teaching" you the abc's for 30 hours every week, all year long, then continued to allow only that and no math higher than addition and subtraction when you'd learned that when you were 1 or 2, would you be sane?

Yes. She volunteered to be the gifted coordinator for that school to ensure that there was no education for gifted students. She was toxic.

I'm not saying as so many keep repeating...that all schools or all teachers are bad. My experience with public school was horrific and damaging to my children. After doing much research I figured out why the schools fail so many and human nature explains why so many parents don't stand up for their kids.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sense]

114. Me?

I disagree, therefor I'm a freeper. You can't understand me so I'm the freeper?

Hilarious!

[ulysses]

118. ah, Gatto.

That explains a lot.

[sense]

121. Did you find a box for me now?

[ulysses]

123. let's call it a couple of panels of the box.

I do find it amusing, though, that a Gatto fan with a recent posting record on the topic of teachers like yours is going to complain of being put in a box. :D

[sense]

127. :-)

[EFerrari]

47. Exactly.

[Wednesdays]

64. I agree

"...everyone thinks they are an expert because they were in fifth grade once."

Or twice. Or...

:evilgrin:

[Ilsa]

9. My son couldn't learn without his teachers. Not every kid out there

can sit and read and understand the message or learn it with mom and dad's help. There are ways of teaching for specific problems kids may have that may not even be learning disabilites. Teachers learn how to do that, they learn how to read the kids and adapt the message for better understanding.

[sense]

26. a very few

Teaching degrees require the least amount of work and least rigorous classes of all. There are very, very few teachers who get more than one chapter on gifted education and just resent bright children, unless they're also quiet.

[Ilsa]

49. These are teachers that started with regular classes, and then learned

more about how to teach with inclusion kids in their classes.

I'm not going to buy into what you are selling. Being a good teacher is more than the academics learned in the classroom. Alot of it comes with experience and maturity and developing the talent to read children and understand them. I have degrees in business, and then earned a nursing degree later. In between, I took classes in neuroscience as it relates to teaching, computers, memory, brain diseases, etc. Of those three types of degrees, the finance degree was the easiest. The nursing studies were the hardest.

[AwakeAtLast]

66. You wouldn't want to back that claim up with facts, would you?

When I was in college to get my Ed. degree, my GPA had to be HIGHER than most other degrees just to move on to the Teacher's College. Plus, since I'm a Music Teacher, I was taking music theory, practicing and performing at the same time. You might want to paint all of us with a narrower brush.

[knitter4democracy]

71. STBX got away with a C as a pre-med. I couldn't have.

He got it in Comparative Anatomy lab, and he got into med school with that on his transcript. As an English, Secondary Ed track major, I couldn't get below a B in any of my major, minor, or education classes and had to have above a 3.0 at all times. Damn straight my grade req's were higher.

[knitter4democracy]

69. That's not true at all.

I graduated from a teaching program in Ohio. We had far more than one chapter on G&T education.

I understand what you're saying, that your son lost the teacher lottery time and time again. For that, I am sorry. Please don't pain all of us with the same broad brush.

For example, my son lost the teacher lottery this year. We all thought his teacher would be a good fit for him, and instead, it's been awful. So, since I'm in there for an hour every week to help with reading, I started doing serious observation, as I was trained to do in my education classes, and I was able to make the principal finally listen to reason. She obviously has dealt with the teacher, and even my son said things are better. Unfortunately, I had to be able to speak educationese to finally get some changes made, but it can happen. I know that I changed how I dealt with students when I needed to, and instead of pulling my son out and homeschooling him (like he begged me to), I went to bat for him, which paid off.

Not every teacher out there is bad. Not every teacher is terrible with G&T kids. Most state req's now require more G&T time.

[sense]

74. I don't paint all with the same broad brush

I don't mean to imply, in any way, that all teachers are bad or uneducated or should all be lumped together. I do get very tired of so many of them blaming parents and denying kids need anything more than what they planned to teach that year. In the state I live in there are good laws, but no educators are expected to follow them. It's very sad and very destructive to kids who want so badly to learn and find that school, which they've waited for so long, is not where that will happen. It's difficult to give up on the system and take things into your own hands and I resent being forced to do that. I pay taxes. My child deserves a publicly funded education as much as any other child, yet it doesn't matter. My son had one teacher who understood what he needed and she, herself, was gifted and simply recognized that in him.

You sound like one of the good ones and I'm sure that your students and their parents appreciate that. I fought for what he needed for four years and it really ended up being much easier to home school than continue the fight. He was happier too.

[knitter4democracy]

78. When you attack the NEA, you do.

The reality is, many of your real problems weren't with the teachers half as much as they were with the system and, more particularly, the administration. A teacher who has a student she's not doing well with and gets called on it usually also gets massive pressure from the principal to figure it out and deal with it. A bad principal can't fairly balance the needs of the teachers, students, parents, budget, and community, though, and it sounds like your real problem, especially one of four years in length, was with the principal far more than it was with any teacher.

I was never an NEA member (though my mother has been for over 40 years). I was a member of CHALTA, a union for lay teachers in the Catholic schools with very little power (but at least we got some bargaining power and could file grievances). Who do you think makes up teacher unions, runs teacher unions, and is the power behind teacher unions? Teachers. When you attack our unions, you're attacking all of us.

[sense]

89. The most toxic teachers

My son had continued to teach unabated and were protected by their union because they had tenure. There were no consequences of any sort for the abuse many of them heaped on their students and they continue to poison the pool of teachers because they have tenure. Why do they have tenure? The union. I'm all for most unions, but I think the NEA is too powerful and they fight for teacher benefits that are detrimental to children. I don't think that's good for anyone.

[knitter4democracy]

93. No, they continued because you had a crappy principal.

Ask my mom just how far a principal can go to make a tenured teacher's life a living hell until she starts looking into leaving. This is in Michigan, a very pro-union, pro-NEA state.

Tenure exists to protect the teachers who would get fired because they don't play politics or golf with the principal or go to the bar with the administration people every Friday. Having taught in a non-union school with absolutely no tenure, I can assure you that tenure is not some magic potion. We had some less-than teachers who were never going to get pressured, let alone fired, because they had the right parent group behind them and were buddy-buddy with the principal. I've also seen tenured teachers harrassed into an early retirement who were great teachers but made the mistake of standing up to the principal when he was wrong.

If a teacher gets reported, whom do you report to? The principal. If nothing happens, nothing gets better, who is ultimately responsible? The principal. If it's the same year after year at the same school, who's the real problem? The principal. The principal is the common denominator at the school there, especially as you've stated that your problems took place over four years with four different teachers.

[sense]

104. No.

The principal went against what the teacher wanted and moved my child up two grades. The principal left the school. The teacher is still "teaching".

It was a language immersion school and he completed 6 grades in 4 years, that means he had 11 teachers (I could explain, but it isn't relevant). He had one good teacher. There were two principals in that time period and another started the year after we left. One principal was a problem.

Why should any of this exist. School is not supposed to be a roadblock to learning. I'm not saying every school, or every teacher is. I'm saying every public school is obligated to teach every child and they're not even trying to do that. Not every school, or every teacher.

THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN. Where is the school my child for my child? They gladly take my taxes, then deny my children an education at their rate and level of learning, as required. Required should mean something!!!!

They don't agree to provide an education only if you fit into a box.... they agree to provide an education for all and many, many are not getting that and are being abused. My experience is not negated by anything or anyone else's.

[knitter4democracy]

136. I will always agree that the system is broken.

It doesn't matter which, public or private. The reality is, we went with the wrong system ages ago (a manufacturing-based model instead of Montessori, a competing model at the time that has since proven to result in higher test scores across the board).

Having taught, I have more sympathy for the teachers. As a mom, I lose sympathy quickly when I see crappy methodology and my kid crying in class. The reality is, teachers have too many kids (all of whom should have IEPs, to be honest) and too much curriculum to fit into a classroom and a day. It's amazing we get decent results at all.

[Hello_Kitty]

11. Jesus god. Because we have PARENTS!!

Some folks want to make teachers - people who devote themselves to a career that requires an incredible amount of training for low pay and the patience and enthusiasm of a saint - jump through all kinds of arbitrary hurdles to get a pittance of a raise.

Meanwhile, any pair of dipshits can squirt out a series of genetic replicants. Then can proceed to park them in front of the TV and feed them processed chicken nuggets and then get a scrip for Prozac or Adderol because they're too "difficult". Every parent gets a deduction and a child tax credit no matter how much of a fuck-up they are. How about we implement a "merit system" for parents? How about we start reducing the tax breaks, or even fining parents who can't be arsed to make sure the kid goes to school prepared for class every day, hmm? How about we start "firing" parents who are too incompetent to handle the job? Why are we blaming the people who have the kids 6 or 8 hours a day while giving a pass to the ones who have them the rest of the time?

[sense]

27. most kids have to attend school

to get those meds... the parents don't request them, the teachers do. Teachers just can't seem to see children as individuals and expect them to all act the same... sit down and shut up.

[Hello_Kitty]

29. Well of course, we can't possibly hold parents responsible

Naturally, it's the teacher's fault. :eyes:

[sense]

31. Not what I said. Feel free to obfuscate.

[AwakeAtLast]

67. Teachers cannot prescribe medication, only doctors can

We have parents who call teachers and ask them to speak to the doctor for the parent to make sure they get the medication that the parent wants. My claim is as unbelievable as yours.

Why you are so anti-teacher is beyond me. If you haven't already, volunteer at your local school. I will be surprised if you meet any teachers who behave as you suggest.

[sense]

76. Teacher's label kids adhd and add all the time, simply because

they are active. We all don't fit into the same box, even children.

I volunteered and advocated at my son's school almost daily for 4 years trying to get him an education at his rate and level of learning, as required by law. I got nowhere and my son got abused, harassed and frustrated endlessly. I pulled him out to home school after he graduated from 5th grade at the age of 8 in a language immersion school. Public school failed him at every turn. Today he's 18, has three years of college credit and speaks 6 languages. I think I made the right decision.

[demmiblue]

83. Bullshit

Teachers are not allowed to diagnose children. End of story. That is a medical determination. If you have encountered a teacher that has, then you need to make a complaint. There are a lot of teachers out there that actually think that children are over-medicated. But, that is not their responsibility or ability to go against the parents and physician.

P.S. What knitter said

P.S.S. Most teachers do not want children to "sit down and shut up." A healthy classroom is one were students are moving, exploring and communicating (unless it is a time when quiet attention is needed).

[sense]

90. Our experience was quite different

I tried to work with the school for 4 long years, while my child suffered. Sit down and shut up was exactly what they wanted. That is why we home school now. I want my kids to question everything, research on their own and not simply memorize stuff they have no interest in so they can regurgitate on a test and forget it.

[knitter4democracy]

79. You'd be amazed at how little education they get on making that diagnosis, too.

I got far better training in my education classes than my STBX-husband did in med school for ADHD and Oppositional Defiance Disorder. He got four hours on a Saturday and only had a couple of instances during his psych rotations in med school and residency. That's all the training he got. Heck, the checklist he got for ADHD during the two hour lecture on the disorder was far less detailed and accurate than the one I got in my Mainstreaming class. Granted, he only treats adults, but he does treat teens who meet the medical definition for adults (based on body weight and size for prescribing).

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. That is a complete fabrication

Teachers are not doctors. They also can't make requests for medical treatment for kids they do not parent.

And I have never once in 30 years told any child to sit down and shut up. Never.

[sense]

100. Cool! Glad to hear it!

Just because you don't do it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen every day in those words or others. We're not discussing good teachers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. LOL yep it's pretty obvious you aren't discussing good teachers

Allow me however to give you one more piece of knowledge. If I ever even sounded like I was diagnosing a child I would be out of a job lickety split.

So no, it doesn't happen every day.

[sense]

105. I'm very glad that if you did that you'd

be out of a job.... but that is your experience and since I've seen and heard otherwise....that would mean that it happens.

I have no documentation to support that it happens every day. That's correct.

added later:

I'm glad you're teaching and we need more of you!

[proud2BlibKansan]

107. You have no documentation

Of course you don't.

:)

[sense]

120. taken out of context

"I have no documentation that it happens every day."

You have no documentation that it doesn't as that would be impossible.

[CTLawGuy]

130. umm

other than tax breaks, parents do not get PAID to be parents.

I don't understand why people are so reflexively hostile to rewarding teachers who work hard and do a good job. It's not TAKING from other teachers. Other teachers will not be worse off!

People also make all kinds of assumptions, that it will favor the teachers in wealthy districts, that it will be only based on test scores, etc. that are just not warranted.

[rwheeler31]

12. Same reason we have mothers, to spoil your fun.

[FlyingSquirrel]

13. Here's a better idea:

Pay all teachers WAY MORE regardless of whether they "deserve it" or not.

The end result will be that people like me who would probably be good teachers if we weren't allergic to being shafted will enter the profession. It won't help in the short term, but in the long term it will do much more to improve things than "merit pay" could ever do.

[Exilednight]

147. So your solution is to reward bad teachers with the ............

same amount of money as bad teachers?

While we're at it, why don't we just keep giving money to banks to pay out as bonuses with little or no oversight ....... oh wait, we are - how's that working out for us?

[Smarmie Doofus]

14. I wonder about your premise.

1. "Merit Pay" implies that teachers will work "harder" if they get a monetary payoff for doing so.

Is there any evidence to indicate that this is so? And that this will result in better results ( let's accept "higher standardized test scores" as the measure of 'better results'.....just for the sake of this discussion)

2. Is there any evidence that public education in the US *AS A WHOLE* has failed to the point that the very role of the "teacher" needs to be rethought? I know folks in the NY suburbs who LOVE their public schools. There's no merit pay. There's a union. There's a salary scale. Teachers with longevity rate more than newbies.

The problem ( disatisfaction with public schools)) seems to be localized ( in this region at least: NYC area) to urban schools which the middle class has virtually abandoned. I do not hear people in Scarsdale, Bronxville, Rye, and Chappaqua worrying about the quality of public schools. Except when they complain about excessive test prep... a phenomenon that was imposed not by the teachers or their unions but by the school "reformers". Over the *objections* of the teachers.

That's the reality around here. Maybe it's different around the country. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[CTLawGuy]

131. like people in every profession

there are good teachers and bad. Good teachers should be rewarded for being good on TOP of whatever other pay they are entitled to.

[smalll]

15. Former and future teacher here. Let me say this. I could support merit pay IF AND ONLY IF

each teacher was given absolute control over their classroom's curriculum, method of teaching, desk arrangement, etc. etc. etc.

I could go for that. Let us know what tests the kids are going to be measured against, then let us teach as best as we know how. The top-down dictats from half-wit administrators sucking up the latest crypto-maoist "constructivist" groupwork bullshit from the ed schools -- well, it would all have to go.

Then, I could get on board. I wouldn't be happy with it, but then it would approach being fair.

[sense]

32. I agree

Here's a thought. Let's quit grouping children by age and group them by something relevant. Or, maybe we could teach them what they want to know, when they want to know it.... which is the most effective way to learn and the method we all employ, except when we're in school.

[a la izquierda]

52. No thanks.

There are things children NEED to know. But you absolutely can't leave it up to children to decide what they want to learn about. Case in point: had it been up to me, Math and Science would never have entered my purview as a student. Period. I suck at it, so why torture myself trying to learn it? I still suck at math 10 years after taking my last math class, but at least I'm a more well-rounded person for it, and when I have kids in school, I can help them figure stuff out that pertains to all types of school subjects.

I'll be damned if I have students come into my class and decide they don't feel like learning about the Mexican Revolution, because it's too complicated. Accordingly, things need to be taught in a certain order, most of the time. I couldn't teach the 18th century of Mexico after the 20th. It would make no sense. Likewise, language instructors shouldn't be teaching the past tense of verbs before the students have a grasp on the present tense and how to conjugate them. Math instructors can't teach long division if kids don't understand the fundamentals of subtraction...I could go on, but I think I made my point.

Education cannot be a free-for-all. If you want it that way, teach them yourself. Then you can impress upon them whatever it is you see fit...and when they get to college they'll either thank you or curse you.

[sense]

60. Children will learn what they "need" to know

If you'd never been forced to learn math or science when you weren't interested, you'd have learned it when you were and you would have retained the knowledge. People learn best when they're interested in the subject matter. That's how everyone learns if they're not forced into the school construct. Because you were in that environment, you can't know what you would have done without it.

You'll be damned? Great attitude. You didn't make your point, you repeated what you've been taught by the system. I didn't for a moment suggest a free for all.

I do teach them myself. I home school. We are never home. We are in the community learning all day every day. learning is not separate from the rest of our lives. My son is in college, and he thanks me all the time. He speaks 6 languages and loves to learn because he was allowed to learn what he wanted, when he was interested in it. He was not stuck in a classroom with 30 other people of the same age all being forced to memorize and regurgitate stuff that bored them.

We home school for academic reasons, nothing more.

[a la izquierda]

77. Sorry, I don't subscribe to that

If I wasn't forced to learn math and science, I'd NEVER have learned it. And I know enough to get by. I don't need either for my daily existence, but I could teach it to my children. You didn't blatantly suggest a free-for-all...it was insinuated.

Good for you and your son, you sound like a good teacher. Not all parents should be teaching their own kids, though, unless they get some outside help. I didn't suggest you homeschooled for any other reason-you brought that up. And you sure are defensive about it. But, to me, the way you suggest teaching sounds a lot like Scientology and the way they teach. And I don't buy it.

Don't insult my attitude, you don't know anything about me or what I do.

[sense]

99. No, it was not insinuated....

If you weren't forced to learn math and science when and in the way you were forced to learn it, you might have found it interesting and somewhat relevant.

You are correct that many should not be teaching their own children. I'm not an especially good teacher and don't take credit for what my son has accomplished. I simply recognized that I could not get him the education he needed in the usual way so I helped him by giving him the time and resources (many, free) that enabled him pursue his own education.

I'm defensive because so many assume. That's my experience. Scientology is bunk.

The comment about your attitude was about your I'll be damned" comment.... which seemed to indicate that your way was the only correct way and that children shouldn't have a voice in their education.

The approach we take is usually referred to as a form of unschooling. Not the form that some people interpret to mean, let them run wild.

Giving children more of a voice in what and when they learn, just like we get to have when we make our adult educational choices means they'll learn easier and retain more. Studies done on unschooling prove that it works. Not for everyone, of course, but it's a valid alternative to public school.

[Lorien]

16. I disagree with both of the popular arguments and I used to be a teacher

though I taught at the college level, which I'm certain was far less of a struggle than teaching at a public school. I attended private schools when I was a kid, and every semester the teachers filled out student evaluations and the students filled out teacher evaluations. These were very liberal schools with tight budgets which wanted only the highest quality educations for their students, so teacher evaluations were taken seriously. Some teachers didn't last more than a few semesters based on those evaluations, others were kept on permanently. The system worked-and far better than standardized tests.

In the UK doctors receive merit based pay based upon how many of their patients live, how many die, and how many go from poor health (obesity and/ or smoking) to better health. Better doctors and better health care are the end result. Not much to argue with there.

[FloridaJudy]

70. There's a problem with this approach

It's going to lead to doctors/hospitals "cherry picking" their patients, much the way insurance companies already do. No one's going to want to care for the critically ill, the medically complex or those with pre-existing conditions. Easier to take care of all those colds and yeast infections than tackle the diabetic with HIV. I understand this very well - I've dreaded seeing clients with "THTW" in the spot on their charts designed to record their weight. "Too heavy to weigh": our scales only went up to 350 pounds. Someone who's that obese presents a whole lot of challenges - just the physical part of caring for them is a lot harder. Ever tried to change the sheets under a massive patient, or perform a simple pap smear on a 400 pound woman? You're going to need a lot of specialized equipment and/or extra staff to do so. Add to that that their weight predisposes them to a whole slew of medical problems that need to be screened for and treated, and nothing about caring for them is going to be easy. Expect the ones who need medical help the most to be turned away most frequently, much as they are already.

My feeling is that the same goes for private schools. Just the fact that a child is enrolled in one means they've already been screened for parents who give a hoot about their education: either they're paying out of pocket or are willing to jump through the bureaucratic hoops necessary to apply for a scholarship or a voucher. Add to that that private schools aren't obligated to accept all students the way that public schools are - the disruptive kids and the ones with complex educational or physical needs can be weeded out. What works in private schools can't always be applied in public ones.

I don't know what the solution is, but I expect it isn't going to be cheap and easy.

[Raineyb]

17. I often ask that question myself since every Tom, Dick, and Harry seems to think

they can do a better job of it than the people who are actually in the profession. The schools are bad so it must be the teachers fault. Meanwhile, the teachers are teaching larger classes with more students who need extra attention that they can't give them. But the entire problem with the school system is the teachers? Right!

All these people sound like a bunch of backseat drivers.

Regards

[sense]

35. The system is broken

The teachers have to work within a broken system. Some of them manage to teach anyhow, others quit trying and just get through the day. Those people need to go. The entire system needs an overhaul, or perhaps we toss it and just start over.

[last_texas_dem]

18. So lousy parents have someone besides themselves to blame for why their

kid grew up to be a dumbass. :-)

[Hello_Kitty]

20. Damn straight.

It takes several years of education and training to be rewarded with the crap-paid and thankless job of teaching. But any shit-for-brains can be a parent. And you get to act like you have the "toughest job in the world", no matter how much you fuck it up.

[BlooInBloo]

24. Because they lie to cover their own and their colleagues' incompetence.

[ContinentalOp]

36. False choice.

It IS possible to tell who the good teachers are. Same as in any other industry -- managers, peer evaluation, on the job observation, "customer" complaints etc. The kind of stuff that schools have always done. Bullshit metrics applied across the board will never work.

[sense]

39. NEA

Can't do that... against the contract. Customer complaints! That's funny!

[WinkyDink]

43. Education is not "an industry" with standardized products. And if you've ever been on a faculty (as

I have), you'd know that "peer evaluation" is fraught with departmental jealousies, personality clashes, generational gaps, etc.
Industry expects standardization, consistency, and replaceable parts; education thrives on variety, imagination, brilliance, even quirkiness.

Though the last list might apply as well in industry's upper management; but that, of course, is not where teachers rank on the educational poobah scale.

[sense]

63. There are no standardized students so why

do we keep insisting that standardized testing is a reasonable way to measure individuals? Anyone?

[kwassa]

82. Ask George W. Bush.

[Posteritatis]

84. butbutbut accountability!

The year after I graduated from my high school, they switched to those bullshit standardized tickybox tests for the English classes. Cue instant regional panic over half of the twelfth-graders in the district failing English (because the exam was mostly trivia on the readings); cue yet another round of budget cuts and teacher purges.

Ugh.

[WinkyDink]

41. Teachers' salaries ARE ALREADY tied to experience AND to continuing education/higher degrees.

So the "system" does have extra financial incentives already.

[craigmatic]

42. This is one issue I wish Obama would just leave alone.

No Child Left Behind already holds bad teachers and schools accountable by withdrawing funds for poor performance but it's not funded. If they push through merit pay there will be fewer teachers because they're already underpaid for what they do as it is just imagine how little teachers will be paid regardless of performance once a repub gets elected because that'll be the first thing they put on the chopping block. Every single time there's a shake up in education without consulting teachers (or teachers' unions) first, the government usually makes a bigger mess than they're attempting to clean up. It's all trial and error and no attempt to save the parts of a program that works. They simply throw everything out. Another issue would be who gets to determine if teachers are doing a good job. If it's determined by how many kids pass a standardized test then if you thought nclb was bad at having teachers teach the test you haven't seen anything yet. If politicians measure success they'll spin success and either set the standards too high or low to either make unions look good or bad depending on their positions. I personally hope that the unions stop congress from doing this and repeal NCLB and return the system to what it was under Clinton. When it comes to education, I think Obama is just as ideological as bush was.

[EFerrari]

46. Your point about spinning results based on the political calculus of unions

is very well taken.

[EFerrari]

45. You misstated the arguments. It's not that teachers can't be evaluated

or that they don't have SOME control over how much students learn.

It's more that our schools have been f#cked for thirty years and deciding to fix that by focusing on individual teacher performance is stupid. It's like reviewing an actor in a burning theator. First you put out the fire.

[WinkyDink]

48. To me, the "fire" is "LOCAL CONTROL". If the Prez wants in, make public education FEDERAL.

NO MORE funding from local property taxes, which have resulted in rich schools and crumbling schools.

NO MORE crazy-quilt curricula offerings and requirements from district to district, county to county, etc.! STANDARDIZE the CURRICULUM before thinking of any more TESTING.

HOWEVER: A standardized curriculum does NOT mean forcing every teacher to LITERALLY be on the same page daily, with the exact same lesson plans! It means simply that the NATION, as a SOCIETY with a stake in its future, has seen fit to come to grips with WHAT IT IS WE as a PEOPLE value as a CULTURE and desire as an ECONOMY. And THEN decide the grade levels for the teaching.

[Lorax]

137. Actually, in some places it DOES mean that.

"HOWEVER: A standardized curriculum does NOT mean forcing every teacher to LITERALLY be on the same page daily, with the exact same lesson plans! "

Actually, sometimes it does.

[madfloridian]

51. Obama is doing wonders. He is turning people against teachers.

.

[iamthebandfanman]

53. because some kids DO want to learn?

and some students ARE CAPABLE of being rationally persuaded to be interested in learning?



im sorry but, if merit pay happens... youre just gonna find teachers giving bad students good grades(or atleast passing) just to keep their standing up.
doesnt sound like a good thing for the student or the teacher if you ask me.

its unavoidable that youre going to have a child in your class that refuses to learn, refuses to be behave, and refuses to give respect to anyone. a teacher can not change that. thats why there are disciplinarians in school (ie principles and councilors). parents also play a key role, but good luck trying to get a bad parent to take some responsibility for their child.

[H2O Man]

55. My daughters attend

a small, rural public school in upstate New York. My younger daughter just got her report card yesterday. In the nine classes she takes, she had six 100s, and no mark under 96. My older daughter's scores have averaged 100 since she was in first grade (she is in 9th now).

The older sister is presently on the track team. Our school's boys and girls teams have both been ranked nationally in the top 6 in small schools for the past two years; one boy is ranked in the top 20 for all schools. I attended the parents' meeting with the three coaches, and am impressed by their theory of coaching: they do not push kids, but simply encourage them to do their best. No one is kicked off the team due to talent; only poor grades and the refusal to accept additional support outside the classroom can be cause for removal from the team.

If I had to identify the three factors that make a school a success, I'd say: (1) an administration that interacts with faculty, parents, and the community; (2) teachers who are dedicated to their job; and (3) parents and community members who view the school system as representing both a great resource today, and an investment in our future.

My primary concern today is that many of the students will have problems affording college, and that all of them will face a serious lack of employment options in this area. It's a drain on local communities when our children and youth may be forced to move elsewhere to find a job.

[DemocracyInaction]

56. #1 reason: to babysit your brats

That's why the public never asks about curriculum, supplies, materials in the classroom. The closest they come is wondering how an athletic team is doing. Merit pay won't work because the public has a shit fit over the money it has to pay for "dat education shit" in the first place and demands every frickin' year that there be more cuts. Suuuure, they are going to allocate millions more to give "good" teachers like 6-figure salaries...and I have a bridge in Brookly to sell you if you believe that. Remember, the public DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THE QUALITY OF EDUCATION--ONLY PEOPLE WITH CHILDREN CARE IF THEY HAVE FREE BABYSITTING! And that babysitting is why there are proposals for all day school,etc. Yup, sure, taxpayers are going to fund that when they don't even want to swing minimum pay for the teachers they have. That trout won't swim up stream!!! Obama, like the rest of the fools who have never been in K-12 public education, is clueless.

[sense]

61. Obama went to public school

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. He most certainly did not

He went to the most exclusive and expensive private school in Hawaii.

[sense]

87. He went to public school in Indonesia

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. And that is related to the public schools in the US in what way?

[sense]

95. His children attended public schools in chicago

And the fact that he attended a public school in another country is relevant. His mother had to supplement the education he was receiving in the public school because it was insufficient. He remembers that. It's relevant.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. His kids went to a laboratory school at a university

It may be funded by public money but it is hardly a traditional public school.

He also never said his education in Indonesia was inadequate. You need to read up on this before the hole you are digging gets so big you can't climb out of it. :)

[sense]

115. A public school is a public school

They are not all the same and no one said they were.

No one is talking about or trying to define "a traditional public school". You are reading all sorts of things into what people say and not reading the actual words....

He did say exactly what I said. You need to read up, if you can get out of your hole.

[Enrique]

57. you think teachers are not evaluated now?

don't you know they have bosses and performance reviews and disciplinary procedures?

[YvonneCa]

62. "Stave off this public ...

...sentiment" ???

Your words: "What is MORE likely to destroy both teachers' unions AND public schools is a sentiment among the public that teachers are ineffective (and unwilling to improve) and the public school system is a failure. If teachers and their unions are more willing to accept incentives to perform better, it can stave off this public sentiment."


WAY too late! We are already there. In 2001, under the Bush Administration's Education Secretary, Rod Paige, teachers (unions, specifically) were called terrorist organizations. For the last eight years, NCLB has done nothing but blame public school problems on ineffective teachers (probably because they prefer vouchers)...there has been almost NO recognition for eight years of the job teachers do. The general public has NO IDEA what the job entails and our leaders have worked to make that WORSE for eight years.

In all the talk of fixing public education and schools...which I wholeheartedly support...the idea of involving teachers in this process is never brought up by anyone in a position of authority. I'm glad to here they may 'rename' NCLB and start to include a 'progress' measure for accountability...but talk about putting lipstick on the proverbial pig. ;)


A better start would be a HUGE and LOUD apology to the teachers of this nation who have dedicated their lives to teaching kids. Most with little support, either financial of in respect. And then ask them what they think, and make THAT public. What a difference that would bring!

[Wednesdays]

65. I suggest going one step further than merit pay

Pay ALL the teachers more, and there'll be much more competition to fill the jobs. Therefore, we'll have far more qualified teachers in the positions.

[file83]

86. I'll flip it around: PARENTS get charged a FEE for every mark their child gets below an A+

It's a feedback mechanism - the worse a student does, the more "motivated" he/she will be by their parents. It forces the parents to be interested in their child's marks.

Sound insane? So does paying teachers based on student performance.

[urgk]

122. I don't think it's insane.

Maybe parents within certain guidelines - perhaps those with one single 9-5 job *should* be charged extra for having failing kids. It would certainly increase the motivation of those parents who rely on the school system to raise and educate their kids.

[Life Long Dem]

68. Send the President an email. No merit pay. It's a waste of money.

Maybe we'll see Arnold again, telling the President that his career workers in the state will gladly take these incentives!

[tomreedtoon]

73. Why? Parents sometimes can't abuse their own kids.

That's why counties pay teachers to humiliate and destroy the self esteem of kids. Because some parents aren't capable of doing it themselves. Hard to believe, but it's true.

It takes a trained educator to duct-tape a retarded, frightened kid inside a cardboard box during class. And many parents don't have it in themselves to sexually use children, either.

[Critters2]

75. I agree. Apparently, everyone and his pet frog is qualified to do homeschooling.

So, let's go with that.

[Fire1]

124. Critters, you crazy!! LMAO!!!

[file83]

85. The same reason that Police Officers shouldn't be paid based on crimes NOT committed.

The same reason that Firemen shouldn't be paid on how many fires DON'T start in a city.

Suggesting that paying teachers based on students NOT getting bad grades is going to "solve the problem" of some children getting low scores is both unrealistic and counter-productive.

[treestar]

91. It is a two way street; the student has to want to learn and behave

themselves well enough and participate - no one can control another person's mind, so ultimately it is up to the student. If the teacher presents the material, then the student has to listen to it.

Maybe some students need more help than others. But there are those who don't try. That's a line that can't be crossed. The teacher cannot be made responsible for that.

So any "merit" would have to have nothing to do with the student's achievements, because you just can't measure that without accounting for so many factors, many of which are not easily pinned down: financial status, native intelligence, parent support, health, social status, it just goes on and on. A student can flunk if the teacher is wonderful. Students aren't just empty vessels the teacher has to fill. The student has to participate too and the teacher can't force that if the student doesn't do it.

[sense]

139. You forgot the part

about the teachers presenting stuff the kids already know, day after day, after day, after day....

Hard to dumb down to that level every day without acting out. You'd be screaming if it happened to you.

[Two Americas]

103. amazing

Democrats attacking the very concept of public education. Will wonders never cease?

[CTLawGuy]

132. I hope you're not talking about me

a public high school grad, because that would be silly.

[Two Americas]

134. not sure what you mean

I am talking about the right wing anti-public education posts that are all over the board suddenly. I wondered why that had happened.

I just heard on NPR "Obama favors merit pay," which I hadn't been aware of, so the mystery is solved.

I can't see what being a public high school grad has to do with anything.




....

[ulysses]

112. to give you someone about whom to complain.

It's a service.

[urgk]

116. I'd appreciate it if the college students in my classroom

knew how to use the English language better than the average Junior High student.

I don't care how that gets done -- merit pay, tutors, holding parents accountable for under-performing students (which, of course, can't happen until parents can hold a single 9-5 job and still afford health care and day care for their families). I get the feeling that the bulk of the problem lies somewhere between the supplemental education students aren't getting in their homes and the fact that lawsuits against local school systems have sucked both the fight and the authority out of teachers.

If teachers were held to a standard AND were, across the board, allowed to hold their students to a consistent standard, the entire country would be better for it.

[Fire1]

128. I strongly agree, especially that last sentence.

[sense]

140. Home schooling?

My college student son would like it if his fellow students knew the language better too.

[cooolandrew]

119. I think the basic sentiment is teachers don't want to compete they want to teach to the best of>

their ability, without the feeling someone is looking over their shoulder. Training should be all that is required than a rating system to keep teachers to standard not a horse race. Competitiveness is good in some areas but destructive in others this would be where it's destructive. Although it was a good effort to defend the position. Provide the right tools for teachers and they'll do the best they can divide and conquer well we've seen the results of that. I feel most times out of ten the President will have my support but chartered schools puts teachers at odds with each other and that's the last thing that's good for any school I would imagine. We had Lenard Clark on thejefffarisshow.com and as a teacher he opposed the concept, Lenard is a very wise man and I defer to his better judgment.

[Luminous Animal]

126. Just because the two are true

(and in fact, research back it up) does not mean that each and every child does not benefit from public education. In fact, millions do.

What has been proven it is primarily poverty that hinders children's performance and improvements. Deal with that, then come back to me about merit pay.

By the way, merit pay for teachers was concocted in England in 1710 and tried for the next 300 years. It has always been an expensive failure.

[CTLawGuy]

133. if you can say they do benefit, with some confidence,

then we must be able to measure it. I agree with you. Public schools are great things. I just think it is wrong, the notion that we can't tell which teachers stand out and how much of an impact they have.

[sense]

144. each and every

is ridiculous. My child did not benefit. He was bullied, harassed and humiliated, and that's just by the teachers. They tried to shove the abc's, addition and subtraction down his throat every day for 4 years when he'd learned those long before he entered school. That's torture, not teaching. They refused to teach him anything he didn't already know. It makes no difference that he was ahead of most when he entered, they were still required to teach him and they refused. Public school teachers don't get to pick and choose. If you planned something for 30 kids and 1/4 of them already get it, you've got to provide something for the others to learn. You don't get to just ignore them or make them your "asst." teachers. Kids are individuals, and can't all be put in one box, just because they're shorter than we are. It's a school, they all expect to learn and denying them that is sick.

I'm not saying they're all prepared to learn or that they're all interested in what's being taught, I'm saying, they know what school is supposed to be for and they're right to expect to learn.

[MasonJar]

129. This is a totally specious argument by somebody who has evidently

never worked in the public school system. Schools differ enormously and teachers are amazing people, who generally work for poor pay because they care about their subject and their pupils. They are not miracle workers, but many come close.

[sense]

141. Schools do differ enormously

as do teachers. Many are abusive and not remotely qualified. Not, all, but far too many.

[DailyGrind51]

135. Would you provide rotten lumber to one carpenter but prime lumber to another,

yet give "merit pay" to the one who builds the best constructed garage? Public school teachers can't pick their students. I have worked with some pretty messed up kids with parents who don't care about their own futures, let alone that of their children. I receive phenomenal performance reviews, but would never accept merit pay, because next year, my kids could resemble the "Brady Bunch", and unfair to my colleagues with the "Wild Bunch".

[BlooInBloo]

138. To turn stupid kids into stupid adults.

[shayes51]

145. Until we return the control of classrooms back

to teachers, merit pay makes little sense. In our local elementary schools, the teachers' days are prescribed down to the very minute, very page, etc. In addition, merit pay would have to be based on goals that any dedicated teacher could achieve--advanced degrees, publishing, attending/presenting workshops, years of continuous service, and so on. Otherwise, if we leave the decision-making to the administration,look for the secondary coaches to get all the merit pay at the high school level. I know because I spent 29 years teaching there.