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Where does the money come from for "merit pay"

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dcindian Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 06:13 AM
Original message
Where does the money come from for "merit pay"
Edited on Thu Mar-12-09 06:35 AM by dcindian

Did I miss the part where every community in this country just got richer? Did the housing bubble not happen? Did I miss the downward wage pressure for all working class Americans? Did I miss the part where nearly every single school budget in the country is getting cut?


Think about it.

There is no more money then what communities had last year. Merit pay has always been temporary when implemented. The idea is to get it in the door only to come back and lower wages overall in the long run and bust the unions.

Merit pay may work for rich communities with lots of money for their school budgets, but it sure the hell won't work in my small town of 1000. And it won't work for 90% of school districts in America which are having huge budget problems.

Crap we have this ideal that somehow paying a low wage and giving bonuses is the way to go with such a vital profession and it just does not pass the smell test. And I am sorry but there is no magic bullet, and there is no magic bucket of monies for merit pay.


Stop looking at the simplistic populous answers for short run gratification and start looking for real long term answers.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. There always seem to be excuses to underpay teachers no matter what the state of the economy.
This is not the best time to be trying to reward good teaching, but it would be nice to put a plan in the for the future.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
11.  100,000 a year is not uncommon on parts of the east coast for 9 months
out here teachers seem to be very well paid with excellent job security and pensions. I don't know if it is just NY or what.
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trayfoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I've taught over 30 years and I don't even make $50,000!
It bothers me when people take one or two situations out of context and apply that standard to everyone. Truth is, teachers DO NOT make the salaries that their education, training, talents, hours of work call for.
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busymom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. I live in MN in a smallish community
Edited on Thu Mar-12-09 09:21 AM by busymom
My children's 1st grade teacher (who I adore) has been working for 14 years and earns a little over 50k. Her husband is a middle school band teacher who earns slightly more than she does. Before taxes, they earn over 100k. They fall below the alternative minimum tax threshold and are able to deduct their children and home mortgage from their taxes.

They have more money after taxes than we do...and my husband is a physician.

They take wonderful vacations and trips in the summer that we can't afford.

Oh...and I don't begrudge her any of it...I just wish it felt a little more fair for us.

Just FYI.
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sakura Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. But do you work outside the home?
You don't mention your own source of income. Is the work done by two teachers equivalent to the work done by one physician? If not, how many teachers' work does equal the work of one physician?
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busymom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I am
Edited on Thu Mar-12-09 10:54 AM by busymom
not counting my income...and right now, I am a sahm...but I have had a variety of interesting mini-careers throughout my motherhood career.

Hmmm...is the work done by two teachers equivalent to the work done by one physician?

I'll let you decide.

4 years of college check
5 years of medical school (extra year or research) check
8 years of residency and fellowship training where the good doctor worked over 100 hours/WEEK. That is more than twice the average time at work by most people.

Student loan debt for most physicians now averages ~150,000 and it is not really...optional. Pay for residency and fellowship hours can be estimated at about ~4/hour. That isn't even the minimum wage and again...not optional.

Finished training and started real job...immediately hit with taxes. Live in state with Alternative minimum tax and can not deduct home mortgage interest or any of our children, etc.

As a family, we had ONE car for the first 10 years or so of our marriage. I literally drove my husband to the hospital and then the kids to school and picked him up at the end of work...

DH currently works an avg. of 60 hours a week, but he is devoted to his patients regardless of their ability to pay. It is nothing for him to leave the house at 2am to go into the ICU to see a girl with meningitis who has no health insurance...or to go to the ER to see his newly diagnosed HIV patient who is now suicidal (even though that is not his field).

If you are sick, you want my husband to treat you....but he does not get any time off in the summer for vacation, no doctor workshop days, he takes hims work home with him every single night and is on call from home every other night in his specialty...not a choice, btw....and he is not unique.

So I don't know....you tell me...

His job is important too. Yes, shaping children's minds and educating them is extremely important. The entry level educational requirements for teachers is a a bachelor's degree. Most teachers that I'm friends with are home before 4pm every day. They don't work weekends with the exception of some grading, they get summer vacation off (though I know that there are some educational conferences that they attend. They get spring break off.

My husband diagnoses obscure infections, uncovers malignancies that present as infections and sometimes has the power to make a difference between whether or not someone lives or dies. The entry level requirements for his job were 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school and 6 years of residency...though he did a couple of additional years of training which benefits his patients. He often goes in on weekends even when he is not on call because he feels a moral obligation to his patients. He doesn't get summer vacation off, hasn't attended a live conference in 3 years and he takes roughly 1 week of vacation/year.

Let me know what you think.

Blame the doctor? Blame the system? Blame the patients who have needs? Blame the messenger (me)?


Medicine is not ER or Grey's anatomy...

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sakura Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Grey's Anatomy? That's funny...
Hopefully nobody thinks that's what medicine is like, and hopefully nobody thinks the tv shows about schools are accurate, either. Do they? God, I hope not. I have MDs in my family so I am well aware of their job description and hours.

However, my point is about YOU (not your husband). You don't work right now. I don't fault you for this-- in fact, I have made a decision to work part time myself and probably for the same reasons you have, and we don't go on vacations, or have a new car, or any of the things that some of our dual income friends do-- but comparing the salary of a family with one wage earner to the salary of a family with two wage earners is inherently unfair. Because of the decision you made, your family earns less than some families with two wage earners. You have to consider this when making comparisons. Presumably your husband is making more than the salary of ONE teacher at the same stage in his or her career, right? And I am also guessing that you are thinking mostly of disposable income-- your husband's student loan debt probably makes sure that at this time in your life with only one income you are forced to forgo luxuries. But that won't always be true. Eventually, your life will improve. Compare your husband's eventual earnings (after the debt is gone) to the salary chart for your school district. Look at say, twenty years on the job. The two figures will not compare.

Is it fair that your husband works so hard for so little at this time? Absolutely not. Thirty years ago you would have been able to live quite comfortably on the salary of a physician, and as a wife you would not have had to work, or be forced make tough decisions to manage on one income as so many of us do. But times have changed for the worse. Managed health care has done to the medical profession what poor, bottom-lined focused management has done for every other profession. Teaching and medicine are more alike than you might realize. Both are other-centered professions, where you cannot easily measure output. In both cases you are not making widgets. You are dealing with humans and all the variables that they bring with them. What's funny is that medicine is now much more like nursing than the profession it used to be, in terms of respect. I have both MDs and nurses in my family, and I have heard many times how nurses have been traditionally treated. Overworked, underpaid, disrespected by their supervisors and MDs, etc. Now MDs are in a similar situation, due to having bean counters over them, seeking to decision-making away from them and to usurp their authority. It sucks, and it's wrong. I completely agree with you. Still it does not make it fair for you to compare the salary brought in by one person to the salary brought in by two.

And for the record, having spent some time in the classroom myself, I can tell you that quite a few teachers spend upwards of 60 to 80 hours a week on their work-- only part of it is at school. It's more teachers than you think-- every teacher my son has had has fit this mold, and more than half of the teachers I work with do, as well. I'm sorry to hear that the teachers you know stop work at 4. The ones I know don't. They bring work home with them, and grade mountains of papers at night. The ones I know work summers, too. Almost every teacher I've met does, or takes continuing ed classes. Many of the teachers at the so-called "failing" schools spend 12 hours a day in the classroom and go in on weekends, too. They make themselves available to students at any hour, evenings, nights, weekends, and yes, even the middle of the night if one of their kids is in trouble. I did the same as a teacher. Are there lazy teachers? Sure. But there are lazy and unethical doctors, too. My son has had the misfortune of having a couple of these, and my niece died as the result of a physician who had completely memorized the Krebs cycle, but who really had no deep understanding of it (she had a mitochondrial disorder, and was treated at one of the most prestigious research hospitals in the country. She suffered needlessly before she died due to this man's incompetence.) I was a biology major in college, and most of my classmates were willing to cheat and sabotage others work to get the grade they needed. Only three of the hundred in my class wanted to become a doctor to help people. The rest (this was some time ago when the profession was higher paid!) were in it for the money, hoping to become opthamologists or whatever specialty had the best profit margin. I am not going to assume all MDs (and yes, these classmates are all MDs now) fit the same mold, particularly those who decided to enter medicine when it became a less lucrative field. My son has been lucky enough to be treated by physicians who are the like the person you describe-- someone not in it for the money. Interestingly, they don't lead the Mercedes/BMW lifestyle. They work solo and live modestly. They have my deepest respect.

In my case, my education level is the same as your husband's. I have a Ph.D. plus post doctoral work, yet when I started teaching about 12 years ago I earned 20,500 dollars a year. (And if your husband had left his profession and come down there to teach, that's what he would have made, too, regardless of his education.) For comparison in the city where I worked in South Texas, refinery workers (without a high school diploma) were making 100 thousand. Did that suck? Absolutely, particularly as I had no supplies for my science classroom, and my students were from extreme poverty, which meant that they came to school with nothing. So out of my grand 20.5K salary I spent 3000 to 4000 dollars a year on supplies. I still got to pay tax on that income, however.

My point is this. First, it's silly to compare a one salary family to a two salary family. Second, physicians and teachers should be on the same side of this. Neither make what they deserve. To compare the two unfairly really doesn't advance the discussion.

Cheers!
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lutefisk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. The "street value" of teachers' benefits are often added in to make the salary look higher.
I think it is pretty sleazy to figure in what health benefits, for example, would cost when calculating a teacher's pay.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Yes, teachers out East are paid very well.
The $100,000 per year is mainly for veteran teachers and administrators but the starting pay is really good too. More than I make.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Maine doesn't pay anything near that, and we're about as East as you are gonna get. :^)
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Maine is on the Northern salary scale!
:P ;) :)
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. The principal of the local elementary school makes just over $100,000. Teachers: not even close.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'll tell you where it came from at a company I used to work for.
When they decided to start doing merit raises, they held back our cost of living raises. Then instead of being spread to everyone as before, they doled the money out to their favorites.
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EmilyAnne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. What kind of company was that, Lasher? n/t
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. I'll shoot you a PM. n/t
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EmilyAnne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. I am trying so hard to understand why this topic is so upsetting to so many on DU and I just don't
get it.

That we don't have enough money for merit based pay raises is the first reasonable argument against it as far as I'm concerned, but it doesn't seem to address the principles behind merit pay.

We could easily say the same thing about health care reform, the omnibus bill and any other money we are planning to spend.
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dcindian Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Oh I am all for paying teachers more.
But we cannot fool ourselves into believing that the merit pay will continue to be above and beyond.
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EmilyAnne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Do you mean that favoritism, cronyism, etc. will determine who is worthy of a merit-based pay
raise? Is that what you mean by "above and beyond?"
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dcindian Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. It may but what I am getting at is.
Edited on Thu Mar-12-09 07:16 AM by dcindian
Merit pay will only be a temporary increase in pay. It has to come from somewhere even if President Obama funds merit pay for four years the next President may not and local boards will then be stuck trying to come up with extra money.

The net result is that Merit pay will need to be budgeted for and since school budgets are always tight it will ultimately come from base pay and base wage increases.
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EmilyAnne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. If that is an absolute, then I do not agree with merit pay. It can not take the place of
across the board salary increases that should have been granted long ago.

I support higher salaries and pay increases that reflect cost of living increases for all public school teachers.
I support merit pay on top of it.

I don't think the burden of raising all salary money should be on the local school boards. As long as this goes on, our public schools will be a national shame. There shouldn't be such inequality.
Of course, salaries should reflect the local cost-of-living. A teacher in Manhattan or San Francisco must be paid more than a teacher from Waller, Texas.
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trayfoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. I don't know what #6 meant, but I would answer yur question with a resounding YES!
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EmilyAnne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Then I assume that favoritism and cronyism is a big problem already, completely unrelated to pay.
That sucks and should be dealt with.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. The money came from China. It's part of the stimuls package.
I'm a teacher: stimulate me.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. I heard that we union thugs were going to be beating the money out of orphans...
but the funding for the sticks ran out.
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busymom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
15. Didn't you hear?
The 'rich' have an endless supply of money...until they don't.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
17. it comes from the raises the "bad" teachers don't get
:shrug:
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DemocracyInaction Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
22. Indeed--we had merit pay for about 2 years and now FREAK OUT
The school system I am now retired from tried a version of this a couple years ago. Teachers were able to "get up the scale" for all sorts of extra class taking, work submitted, etc. BAM--two years later in a system where the longest employed teacher made $58,000 (my husband), suddenly they had teachers in $85,000 and $93,000 category and the whole thing collapsed into one utter crap mess. They now can't roll back those levels for the ones who got there so they are trying to drive them out by overloading classes, treating them like animals, etc. But the teachers, bless their hearts, are giving the bastards the finger and giving them nothing to fire them over. The residence of the city are livid. Administrators have lost their jobs for this briliant idea and others are looking over their shoulders. Talk about justice---administrators wanted it to be able to slash teacher's salaries (the ultimate goal) and put more in their own pocket. And now it's those administrator's who have lost their jobs. Better watch what you wish for, administrators. HAHAHA Indeed, cities don't have a pot to piss in. They sure is hell not going to give more money to teachers who they think should earn no more than $1.50 per hour because EVERYBODY knows any moron can teach!!!!
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
26. Would you ask the same question if there as a proposal for a 25% pay raise for all?
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
29. From all the underachieving teachers
demerit pay???



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