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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:00 AM
Original message
If We Bail Out the Banks, Why Shouldn't We Own Them?

Weekend Edition
March 20-22, 2009

If We Bail Out the Banks, Why Shouldn't We Own Them?
Sliding Down in Anger
By SAUL LANDAU

"It’s worse than you can imagine,” a Member of Congress confided to me, referring to the downward spiral of the economy. “We just gave all those hundreds of billions to the bankers so they would lend it and they didn’t lend it and they still want more. The bankers don’t know what they’re doing and Tim Geithner doesn’t know what he’s doing. We all know this is the worst economic slump of our lifetime.”

While the arcane Washington budget processes – each Senator and Member trying to grab something for his or her district or State -- unfold, the poor should start to worry. They have already lost or about to be lose homes, jobs and health care. The propertied classes focus on their major concern: their property, which stands immeasurably higher in their moral guidelines than the lives and welfare of those without or with less.

The capitalists oddly enough believe in capitalism and have done all in their power to spread the word. Their public promoters convinced lots of working people that capitalism and the American flag go together. Capitalism means freedom, so the very notion of nationalizing banks – forget socialism – looms in their minds as akin to the Holocaust.

The rich and powerful think mainly about preserving and expanding their wealth and power. President Obama must realize that under the emergency powers of his office, he not only has the authority to seize our assets, but also has access to all the assets of America’s richest men for meeting those emergencies that threaten the common good.

Soon, lots of people will ask: If we bail out the banks then why shouldn’t we control them -- or even own them? The bankers screwed up.

Please read the complete article at:

http://www.counterpunch.org/landau03202009.html



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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. What is the huge roadblock to Nationalization?
Why is it such a hard sell to take ownership of what we have already paid for?

No one can tell me that the government can't find competent people (who are not already compromised) to run them. No one can tell me that we can't find people who will do a better job.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. that is exactly what the GOP has been spouting - we should not be in the business of running these
private institutions.

I am with you. I don't believe that for a second. You can easily start a search for competent leaders by getting rid of the greedy CEOs, Bank Presidents, Exec VPs. Below that there is, I am confident, plenty of competence.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Wall Streeters running the Obama Administration economic policies don't like it.

Isn't that reason enough? The "free market" deregulating Wall Streeters who ran the economy into the ground under Bush are still dictating economic policy!
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lib_wit_it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yes, but why? I expected better from Obama.
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. well...he is delivering real change on a number of issues - but
you have to consider both parties are to a substantial amount in the pockets of lobbyists (for the elite, in various forms).

I believe Obama represents change - there are several examples already.
But he's not trying to overturn the system, rather place (important) accents from within.

He passes a stimulus package with GREAT investments in infrastructure, education, health care...I love it.
On the other hand, the massive lending programmes by the Fed to the banks / corporations / who knows, as in TARP, which was supposed to be temporary, are extended by him and not brought in the open eithereverybody is fussing about the bonus bags while the trucks are being filled at the back...

Change, but not the system.

I never thought of him as someone rowing against the current. he was part of the establishment. Matter of fact, the only politicians that WOULD row against the current are marginalized.

As long as your elections are governed by the number of commercials paid for by corporations,
As long as only a couple preformatted debates are shown on corporate concentrated media,
as long as the public is being dumbed down and artificially divided,
there is no chance in hell this will change.
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asteroid2003QQ47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Why?
He told you what to expect, you didn't listen.

"I believe in the Free Market. I believe in Capitalism. I believe in Free Trade."
--Senator Obama
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. dayum shame isn't it?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. You seem to believe nationalization is a solution that is simple and less costly to taxpayers
Here are the details on the successful nationalization and re-privatization of IndyMac reorganization. As FDIC Chairman Sheila Bair pointed out, the more complex institution will require a different mechanism for reorganization. There is another piece at the link above highlighting what South Korea and Thailand did (I'm sure with smaller banking systems) during the Asian financial crisis.

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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. It certainly is. What are we getting for the trillions being given to insolvent banks?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. What will we get for a lot more trillions
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. It won't be trillions and we will end the crisis by following Sweden's successful course
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 04:23 PM by Better Believe It
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/21/more-on-the-bank-plan/

Stress Test Zombies: Not Too Big To Fail? Tough Tootsies Little Banks!
by Chris Whalen
March 13, 2009

Last week, we learned from Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner that Washington lacks the guts to fix the problems eating away at the US financial system, at least so far. So large are the derivative-fueled losses and so majestic the collective incompetence of the Congress, regulators and the Sell Side dealers on Wall Street in enabling these losses, that the judgment of the single party state called Washington is to simply hide the problem under an ever-widening public TARP.

Now, in most parts of the country, a TARP is used to cover unneeded things, usually a pile of stuff nobody wants, far in the back yard. This is essentially the plan articulated by Bernanke and Geithner: Buy the bad assets, invest more capital in the zombie banks, and hope asset prices eventually recover. This is not a plan to do anything but buy time and extend losses. The scary part is that nobody else in the Obama White House seems to know enough about finance to argue the point.

As we told the subscribers to IRA's Advisory Service, the Fed and Treasury have created a rule without reason, a ridiculous standard that only ensures the unsoundness and instability of the US financial system. Apparently, banks that fail the Supervisory Capital Assessment Program stress test will not be broken up as required by law, but instead given more capital at taxpayer expense. This is the solution to the financial crisis embraced by President Barack Obama. There is no market discipline, no bad results for the bond holders who stupidly funded these giant derivatives-driven, risk-creation machines.

We see two issues facing Bernanke, Geithner and the Obama Administration when it comes to the cowardly "feed the zombies" approach articulated last week. First, it is not sustainable financially and must eventually be changed because of funding constraints. And two, the policy of subsidizing the bond holders of the largest banks is unworkable politically and must eventually also be changed to conform with domestic political reality. That's right, at some point the Obama Administration may need to choose between our foreign creditors and American voters.

Bottom line: The policy decision articulated this week by Bernanke and Geithner represents the largest transfer of wealth in American history, yet no legislation and been passed and no meaningful debate has occurred. The biggest danger facing the markets is that Ben and Tim still do not seem to have a clue what to do about the big banks -- other than to write more checks against the public trust. The conflict over this decision to pass the cost to the taxpayer, between the Fed, Treasury and the Congress, on the one hand, and the Wall Street dealer banks is staggering, yet nothing is said in the Big Media.

If we wish to preserve some semblance of market discipline in the US, an alternative strategy must be found. Until somebody, somehow gets to President Obama and effectively refutes the self-serving argument of the Fed and Treasury that we can't resolve C or AIG, the cost of the zombie dance party can only grow. The way you end the need for public subsidy is by resolving these firms via a restructuring and forcing the bond and equity holders of the bank's public parent company to absorb the cost of marking assets to market. If we establish a hard rule regarding solvency and break up rather than recapitalize zombie firms, then we have started to apply a real solution.

Please read the complete article at:

http://www.rgemonitor.com/financemarkets-monitor/255984...

-----------------------------------

Lifting the Tarp: Will President Obama's Economic Team Lead Him Off a Cliff?
by Robert Kuttner
CoFounder and Co-Editor of The American Prospect
March 15, 2009

The financial danger is that the Treasury will burn through the money approved by Congress without fixing the system. The political danger is that Republicans will posture as the populists, expressing faux-indignation that so much taxpayer money has gone to Wall Street. The overarching risk to Obama's presidency is that the plan won't work, and his political capital will evaporate along with the financial capital.

This latest Geithner scheme to restart the doomsday machine of securitization for newly issued bonds is the fifth do-over since Paulson embarked on this path last October. Geithner's scheme sidesteps the core problem that stymied Paulson -- what about the pre-existing bonds that are clogging bank balance sheets? This huge hole in bank assets is a far bigger challenge than re-starting the engine of new lending, which never entirely quit.

If you ask the question, how can we get America's banking system restored to health, the Geithner/Summers approach makes absolutely no sense. But if you ask a different question, it makes perfect sense: how can we pump up the share price of outfits like Citi and Goldman, while we pump in taxpayer and Federal Reserve money and hope for a miracle.

By the same token, Larry Summers and Tim Geithner are not the only smart people about finance. If President Obama wants a second opinion, he could begin with Paul Volcker, nominally chairman of Obama's own "Economic Recovery Advisory Board," which so far is mainly window-dressing. According to my sources, Summers and Geithner seldom talk to Volcker because they don't like Volcker's criticisms of their plan.

The president could also consult with several people in the Federal Reserve System who have a different view, and also the FDIC leadership, and the Congressional Oversight Panel that was created by Congress as the precondition for appropriating the TARP money. The panel has the statutory right to get documents from the Treasury. But under Geithner as under Paulson before him, Treasury has been stonewalling. Legislators of both parties are increasingly viewing Geithner as part of the problem.

As the administration continues its coziness with Wall Street and the approach fails to bring zombie banks back to life, populist anger passes to both the Republicans and to media tribunes such as Lou Dobbs. This brand of populism is one part anti-Wall Street, but two parts anti-government and anti-immigrant. It has no strategic coherence as a recovery.

Please read the entire article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-kuttner/lifting-th...

------------------------------------

The Nationalization Option
By Harold Meyerson
Washington Post
March 18, 2009

You might think that having anted up $173 billion of our own money, we taxpayers would have some leverage at AIG, now that we own 80 percent of the shares. You might think that when chief executive Edward Liddy, a holdover appointee of Hank Paulson's, told Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner that he had just mailed $165 million of our money as bonuses to the geniuses at the firm's financial products unit -- who probably did more on a per-banker basis to destroy global capitalism than any other kindred group -- that Geithner, upon hearing this news, would have responded, "Liddy, you're fired."

But Geithner's indulgence of bankers' indulgences is fast becoming the Obama administration's Achilles' heel. The AIG debacle is the latest in a series of bewildering Geithner decisions that threaten to undermine the administration's efforts to restart the economy. So long as it's Be Kind to Bankers Week at Treasury -- and we've had eight straight such weeks since the president was inaugurated -- American banking, and the economy it is supposed to serve, will remain paralyzed. The Geithner plan to restart the banks provides huge taxpayer subsidies to hedge funds, investment banks and private equity companies to buy the banks' toxic assets without really having to assume the risk. That's right -- the same Wall Street wizards who got us into this mess, using the same securitization techniques that built mountains of debt within a shadow financial system that remains unregulated, are the saviors whom Geithner has anointed to extricate us -- with our capital, not theirs -- from the mess that they created.

A more plausible solution would be for the government to assume control of those banks that are insolvent, as it routinely does when banks go under. It could then install new management, wipe out the shareholders, take the devalued assets off the banks' books, restart lending and restore the banks to private control at a modest profit for the taxpayers. There may be reasons that Geithner's plan makes more sense than this one, but if they exist, Geithner has failed to explain them.

It's certainly not because Americans are dead set against bank nationalization: A Newsweek poll this month found that 56 percent of respondents supported it. Hell, Alan Greenspan supports it. But Geithner seems unable to imagine a banking system not run by its current leaders or owned by its current shareholders or engaged in the same arcane securitization practices that led to its collapse. An administration that is busily creating alternatives to our health-care system and our energy policies is being dragged down by a Treasury secretary who cannot conceive of an alternative to our catastrophic system of banking.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

-----------------------------


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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Where does it point to the actual cost of nationalizing the banks? n/t
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Just google bank name market capitalization..stunning! couple hundred billion buys ALL the big ones
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 05:03 PM by BelgianMadCow
and then some

Citigroup: 14.35 Billion ( http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=c )
Bank of America: 40 bilion
Goldman-Sachs: 45 billion

Need I go on? Compare that to the trillions... you are not buying banks but their overleveraged bets on the overinflated housing market, and valueing these assets not to market but to what they once were...
Hallelujah
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. That is not the cost to nationalize the bank. n/t
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. Don't we own like 80% of AIG right now?
Someone with an economic background explain to me what the difference is in owning 100% of a bank would be?
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. Why Shouldn't We Own Them?
Because Obama's Wall Street cronies say so...
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. and Rahm and the DLC
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asteroid2003QQ47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
18. #6,7,8,9,13. Define "We" please.
Keep in mind that slaves never comprise a significant portion of the 'ownership' society.

----------------------------------------------
Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek republics: Freedom for slave owners.
--Vladimir Lenin
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asteroid2003QQ47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Oh come on, it can't be THAT hard a question! eom
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
19. Therer are two classes of financial institutions
The first class will be natinalized and run by the government. They will not make a lot of money (if at all) and will give out mortgages, tend checking accounts and the like. They will be a job bank for the cronies of the party in power. The wages will be highly regulated.

The second class will be private and riskier - doing things like trading and investment banking. No wage controls, high risk, high reward.

The best talent of course will work in the private sector. But the workers in the public sector does not need to be especially bright. The will have guaranteed wages and pensions.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Hybrid nationalization is even more risky. It will simply make the nationalized bank
not profitable. Eventually they will go out of business.

Meanwhile, what happens to the Toxic Assets? Do they just sit there?
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