Wow. So this is what I waited out the Bush presidency for?

[Barack_America]

Sad.

And, by the way, I'm not talking about President Obama, who is doing a fine job with the mess that was dumped in his lap.

I'm talking about DU.

Sad.

:(

[Skink]

1. I'm not sure Obamas doing a fine job.

[Barack_America]

7. In what way has the country gotten appreciably worse since Jan. 20, 2009?

Foreign policy?

Environmental policy?

Energy policy?

Fiscal policy?

:shrug:

[Skink]

12. Fiscally.

We nationalized the saving and loans and it worked. We didn't give away tax payer funds like today's plan is set to do. reagan might have done better in this enviroment.

[Barack_America]

24. And which economic index supports your opinion?

We all have our opinions of which policies should be enacted, but we should all strive to see the big picture and think about which policies will work given the current reality.

[Skink]

32. next months jobs report.

[Barack_America]

35. And you feel that Geithner's plan is the cause of that?

:shrug:

[Skink]

37. I feel Paulson's plan is the cause of that.

Cause that is what we got and that is what was anticipated.

[Barack_America]

38. Psst.

Paulson was Bush's guy. He was there before Jan. 20th.

[Skink]

39. Psst. The Paulson Ghost is haunting us.

[polmaven]

76. Psst...How is that

President Obama's fault? Exocisms of this kind TAKE A WHILE!

[Political Heretic]

46. Um... all of them.

[Barack_America]

52. Care to elaborate? FYI, purchases of existing homes went up 5% last month.

Or does that one not count?

http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/23/real_estate/existing_home_sales/?postversion=2009032310

[Political Heretic]

62. So did # of homes on the market, AND PRICES WENT DOWN

[ima_sinnic]

65. how many of those were sold to opportunistic wealthy scavengers, foreign & domestic, as investments?

the article says 45% of sales were to first-time homebuyers -- Saudi, Korean, and other foreign investors will be regarded as "first-time homebuyers" if they have never bought a home in the U.S.

And who are these other 55% who already own a home or have owned one within the last 2 or 3 years? They are the fat fuckers whose bonuses were paid with our tax dollars. They know a bargain when they see one. They made a mint on bad mortgages that ultimately caused unprecedented foreclosures, now they get the houses to boot.

[Runcible Spoon]

82. DING DING DING n/t

[girl gone mad]

81. False.

Existing home sales FELL 4.6%

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/03/existing-home-sales-fall-46/

[damonm]

85. Wrong statistic.

The report you reference is Feb 2009 v. Feb 2008.
Relative to January 2009, existing home sales INcreased 5% in Feb.

[girl gone mad]

87. But no one with a brain in their head ever uses month to month housing numbers..

as an indicator of where the market is headed, unless the numbers are wildly unexpected.

The housing market is highly seasonal. Anyone with kids tries to avoid disrupting their school year by moving before to the start of the new school year in September. This factor, along with holiday activity, explains the annual rhythm of existing home sales.

January is the always the worst month of the year for sales. From that low point, sales gradually climb through June and peak in July and August, and then decline again until December. This happens every year. It's a very consistent, established pattern.

Anyone who actually wants to understand the state of the housing market has two options to avoid this cyclical seasonality: 1. Use year over year data. This removes the seasonal patterns by comparing January to January, June to June, etc. Or 2. Compare non seasonably adjusted monthly data over the course of multiple years.

Since the market peaked in 2005, we have been in a strong downtrend. Prices have fallen about 27% nationally, and units sales are off about 30% from the highs of over 7 million annual sales in 2005.

The data referenced above is nothing more than NAR cheerleading.

[damonm]

89. All true - but the one thing you're missing

Is that the question being asked is "what is worse since 1/20/09", and going year-to-year doesn't provide much answer to that query.

Besides, from http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/23/real_estate/existing_home_sales/?postversion=2009032310 :

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Sales of existing homes unexpectedly rose in February, recovering from a sharp drop in the previous month, according to an industry report released Monday.

The National Association of Realtors said that existing home sales rose last month to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 4.72 million units, up 5.1% from a rate of 4.49 million in January. February sales were down nearly 5% from year ago levels.

Economists surveyed by Briefing.com were expecting existing home sales to decline to 4.45 million.

(emphasis mine)

This doesn't seem "worse" to me...

[girl gone mad]

91. What economists expected a decline from January to February?

NAR shills? A decline from January to February is basically unheard of and I can't imagine any economist worth his or her salt would have honestly expected one.

Sounds to me like the same people who were telling us "housing prices never go down" and "buy now or you'll be priced out forever" not too long ago. Typical MSM rah-rah spin. Not credible.

Down nearly 5% year on year in the face of 15%+ price declines is definitely "worse".

Prices have yet to bottom, though the downward trajectory has lost some momentum. Inventory levels also seem to be plateauing. When inventories start shrinking more dramatically, then it might be reasonable to start talking about a recovery. We're not there yet.

[damonm]

92. Ask Briefing.com.

Or perhaps Reuters:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – New orders for long-lasting U.S.-made goods rose in February for the first time in seven months and new home sales rebounded, government data showed on Wednesday, suggesting the economic downturn might be easing a bit.

The Commerce Department said durable goods orders rose 3.4 percent to $165.6 billion in February, the biggest gain since December 2007, after a 7.3 percent drop the prior month. Sales of newly built U.S. single-family homes rose at their fastest pace in 10 months in February, it said in another report.
(snip)

"This completes a trifecta of positive housing reports for February. A sustained increase in housing demand would be the best tonic for the credit crisis and a major sign that the worst of the recession is behind us," said Sal Guatieri, an economist at BMO Capital Markets in Toronto.

(snip)
"New and existing home sales have hit their lows for this cycle. We expect housing inventory-to-sales ratios to fall from still-high levels as 2009 unfolds," said Michael Darda, chief Economist, MKM Partners in Greenwich, Connecticut. "Home prices should begin to flatten out after inventories fall to 7-8 months, which we expect before the year is up."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090325/bs_nm/us_usa_economy;_ylt=AksTzr4fKAnZIGbDEbYHtyN34T0D

[Teaser]

75. who are you that I should care?

.

[Cha]

86. Yeah, it's skinks like

you.

[Sebass1271]

2. I am with you. DU has turned into something I don't know..

and feel lost...

[Blue Gardener]

63. Me too

I'm willing to give President Obama more than two months to turn things around.

[Tarheel_Dem]

79. That sums up my sentiment more than you can possibly know.

You can't support the President without the usual insults of "bots" or "apologists" or "loyalists". I realize that there are true socialists and other really far left factions on the board, but we should be careful not to allow that element to overtake the board, or the party. I'm a moderate, and I don't hate rich people, and I don't think all corporations are bad, so I guess that makes me a rightwing tool.

[TwilightGardener]

88. I know...some people aren't satisfied unless they're miserable and bitching--

it almost doesn't matter to them who won the WH, or what Obama does while there, they'll find as much to bitch and grouse about as if Bush was still President.

[Flying Dream Blues]

3. I was thinking the same thing and almost posted it today. I had to stay out of GD:P during the

Primaries for weeks at a time, and am just sick that I'm feeling the same way about it now. Very sad.

[FrenchieCat]

4. President Paul Krugman Rules!

and did you know that Barack Obama wasn't a socialist after all?
Everybody is mad at him, cause he told everyone he was, and that's why they voted for him.

[Tarheel_Dem]

80. That characterization is spot on!

I mean, afterall, Pres Obama has been at the helm for 60 days...why aren't we Europe yet?

[liberal N proud]

5. Much short sightedness has consumed this place

It's been what? 2 months since bu$h left Washington? And miracles have not turned the economy around. Many think it is already time for which hunt yet they don't know who to hunt.

[truebluedemz]

28. Short Time

I don't think many if any of Obama's plans have even been implemented yet. I say let's give him...at LEAST a year.

We can't let the Pubbies and their obstructionist behavior and attitudes gum up the works. They HATE this country and they have NO respect for the President of the USA.

They wish he would fail. When Bush was in the WH..we PRAYED he would succeed so the country would succeed...but alas...Bush FAILED.

Obama will NOT fail.

[liberal N proud]

34. Considering the pile of crap Obama was handed on Jan 20

It will be a miracle if he does achieve any of the goals he took office with.

[truebluedemz]

78. Considering the Crap

Obama has already began keeping is promises...in SPITE of the so-called Americans who keep trying to sabatage him.

[Occam Bandage]

6. C'mon. Given the way we treated Reid and Pelosi, and how we treat Clintons,

you had to know that Obama would slowly inherit the mantle of Great Satan from Bush.

[polmaven]

77. Slowly, yes...

But wow - This was FAST!

[Danger Mouse]

8. Sit back and enjoy the ride.

[tekisui]

9. Don't fret. You may have to wade through some muck, but there

are still gems here.:hi:

[donheld]

10. It has become a very sad place

Too many wanted a miracle worker.

[AllentownJake]

11. Really I'm very happy right now

There is an actual debate going on. If we were all standing around singing happy songs to our great leader and happy dancing around the may pole I'd need to question if what I did over the past 8 months was right. I worked to elect a President not a dictator. I have that now.

There always needs to be vocal dissent, both within the party and outside it.

[FrenchieCat]

15. What debate? I'm being called a worshiper like every 10 minutes.....

and have to hide threads from the Copy & Paste "Obama, Terrible, President" Google article whore guy posted without comment!

[AllentownJake]

18. That's part of debate sadly

I've been called an Obama hater :shrug:

I went through 4 months of dealing with McCain supporters at events, on the phone, and at doors and 6 weeks of Clinton supporters during the primary :shrug: I had to lead chants to drown out the anti-choice nuts and help to cover their signs of an aborted fetus at two rallies :shrug:

Being flamed on here is alot less intimidating than being flamed by real people.

[Occam Bandage]

22. We may be working off different terms here, AJ.

When I hear "debate" I do not think "leading chants to drown out the other side."

[AllentownJake]

27. Its part of a political debate

There is flaming that goes on.

The abortion protesters came to our rally to disrupt. During the campaign I had doors slammed in my face and about once a weekend a racial slur thrown. More than that I also had undecided people who wanted to hear what I had to say on why I supported the guy.

I didn't stop knocking on doors because some of the people were slamming the door in my face or the Abortion protesters were at our rallies.

The point is you are going to get flamed you are also going to get to talk and answer questions about your opinion.

[Occam Bandage]

40. That is not part of a political debate. That is an attempt to destroy political debate,

both on your side and theirs. People slam doors, people shout and scream, they chant and yell and flame and insult. They do all these things. And they do them because they do not want a debate.

We may be having a political debate in this country, but it is despite and not because of what the OP refers to.

[AllentownJake]

50. People are People

Everyone acts like this is something new. This has been a part of our political process since Adams ran in 1796.

[Barack_America]

16. I'm not referring to the vocal dissent, I'm referring to the hysteria.

I'm referring to the people who seem to think that, overall, this country is either in the same position (or worse) than it was with Bush in the White House. The notion that Obama has done "nothing right" is ludicrous, and yet I see it either implied or stated outright on DU multiple times per day.

But I'm glad that you're looking at this optimistically.

[AllentownJake]

21. Some people aren't going to like him

Like I replied to Frenchie...this is better than when I had to deal with the Clinton supporters and the McCain supporters in real life during the primaries.

I'm not always going to agree with him. When I don't I'll say so, when I do I'll say so. When the 2010 midterms come and the 2012 re-election campaign comes i'll be in lockstep defense mode.

There is a season for everything.

[Barack_America]

26. Turn, turn, turn.

;)

[Occam Bandage]

19. There's not really much of a debate right now.

There's bitching, counterbitching, preemptive counterbitching, and preemptive counter-counter-bitching. There's namecalling, FUD, guilt-by-association, insults, sarcasm, outrage, and bitter recrimination. There's basically everything you'd expect in a situation where everyone cares but nobody really knows what the fuck is going on or how to fix it.

FDR was able to get the country out of the Depression because the country gave him a chance to experiment, while complaining appropriately when his plans didn't work. Here, we have people screaming bloody murder before plans are even announced, often quite literally because the guy announcing it once worked for another guy who before that once worked for a business that deals with large-scale finances. That isn't debate in any meaningful sense. It's rancor.

Some may thrive on it. I find it chokes debate instead of encouraging it.

[AllentownJake]

23. I've learned things

There are posters on both sides who post thoughtful points. You just have to get through the bullshit to find it.

[Occam Bandage]

25. I think this thread is about the bullshit, and not about the thoughtful points. nt

[Barack_America]

31. This is such a great post.

And yes, that is EXACTLY what the OP is complaining about.

What ever happened to patience, optimism and a little bit of faith? Shit. I bet half of these people believe that Cheney is still calling the shots from some secret location.

The paranoia...it burns.

[PVnRT]

84. He also had John Nance Gardner running the Senate

[iamthebandfanman]

51. lol, there hasnt been honest to goodness

debate on DU since 2004-5 at the very earliest...actually i take that back, it does happen occasionally still...but


the last 2 years have been nothing but newcomers to politics treating it like some game that you can score points on or get cool points for representing...
its sad.

things are way to important to be treated like a college football/basketball game.

ah well, what can ya do !?

[AllentownJake]

53. I still learn things on here

Granted I have to go through posts of calling me a hater or a worshipper...depends on the issue and the day. But there are posts that make me re-think. Like I said, I got doors slammed in my face but I would find people who wanted to talk. Somedays you get more door slams somedays you get to talk more.

[firedupdem]

13. I've learned to check out of here too. Just go talk to other folks

and you'll see it's not the real world feeling this way. These are the same people who never supported him anyway.

[Uzybone]

54. This alternate DUniverse is getting more bizzare each week

In the real world, even the hard core ex military republicans I know think Obama should be given a chance and are asking what alternate plans the GOP have.

On DU Obama has already failed.

Of course if you post something supportive of our President any number of idiots will quickly call you a worshipper.

[firedupdem]

a blind one....and a cheerleader too!

as bloo calls it. The ihateobama forum.

[Phx_Dem]

14. Yep

:-(

[LakeSamish706]

17. Thank God, there are still some sane minds here at DU... I thought we had been....

taken over by the Repugs. with all the bashing threads of President Obama's picks.

[opihimoimoi]

20. ....."Don't worry......Be happy..." :o)

:hi:

[SpartanDem]

29. Your suprised by

the Dems infighting with each other? It's what we do

[BlueJac]

30. Everyone should march to the same drummer?

Relax there is a long way to go.

[Barack_America]

33. No. But everybody should stop beating one another with their drumsticks.

It's uncivil and unproductive.

[Marrah_G]

73. As long as you are looking objectively at all sides.

Often we see people complaining about the virtual stick beatings while carrying their own stick.

[kstewart33]

36. You can always count on the Dems to eat their own.

There is no unity in the House. No unity in the Senate. It is absurd. Everyone wants what they want and to hell with everyone else.

And the Repubs know how to maximize the absurdity for their own game. They may not know how to govern; they dang well know how to eviscerate the enemy and win elections.

Same here on DU. Too many DUers, like the MSM, have a focus that's no longer than 48 hours tops.

If Obama's not thrillin' them, then let's start chewin' on him.

[Skittles]

42. maybe Dems are not just a bunch of goose steppers

[kstewart33]

59. No they're not. They're cats who can't be herded by anyone

even in the name of party unity to get legislation passed. Better to scream, villify, and harp to get their own pet issue attended to, or whatever issue commands their attention in the last 48 hours.

Sorry, I know that's mean stuff, but that's exactly how people are acting around here.

Geez, if their own God were elected prez, they'd be trashing him within days after the inauguration.

[PVnRT]

83. When is the appropriate time to criticize a plan?

Before it's put in place, or a couple of years later?

[Parker CA]

41. Me thinks there has been a mass migration of trolls as well as many formerly undercover emerging. nt

[SnoopDog]

43. Totally agree with you there...

It seems that DU has been diluted with trivial posts and not the very thoughtful, insightful, and meaningful posts of before...

The 'k&r if you agree with <whatever>' threads are a clear sign.

I sometimes wonder if this dilution is being done by republicans and others you want to maintain their plutocracy...

[Political Heretic]

44. Thank you for your concern.

[Barack_America]

47. Oh, are we still calling people we disagree with "trolls" instead of addressing their points?

[Political Heretic]

49. You didn't make a point, and I didn't call you a troll.

[Honeycombe8]

45. I agree w/you. I think lurkers and those who supported other Dem candidates just spend....

just spend their time griping about Obama.

But I think Obama is doing great, considering what was handed him. These aren't ordinary times, that's for sure.

And Obama's accomplished quite a lot in his first 100 days. And guess what? The economy is beginning to show improvement....already.

Long way to go, but I'm pleased, on balance, so far.

[FrenchieCat]

48. You "better believe it"!

:)

[firedupdem]

60. Ha!

:rofl:

[Honeycombe8]

61. What a great pic. I hadn't seen that one before. nt

[AZBlue]

55. K&R!!

[Undercurrent]

56. I couldn't agree more.

Democrats don't always fight with each other.

I took a break today and discussed the economy and Obama with family today. They are solid Democrats, and union folks, and it was a a real discussion about the current state of things, how we got here, and what we can do to help our President. It was a far cry from the name calling, attacking non-discussions I see on DU.

[CreekDog]

57. to be fair, not all of us

not even a majority of us are complaining.

[Barack_America]

58. Of course not. It's the vocal minority.

The bane of GD-P...per usual.

;)

[BlooInBloo]

64. While "silence implies consent" may not be completely correct...

Neither is it completely false.

[Laurab]

66. Thank you - I feel the same way.

Often I come to DU, look around, and feel as though I'm on the wrong website. I think it's sad, too, and I've been spending far less time here. One thing I DO know is that the general public is being far kinder to our new President than DU is, another thing I've noticed is that it's often the same people posting negative things - over and over.

I'm not a "lock-stepper" or whatever else these keyboard warriors call people who defend our President - I just didn't have unrealistic expectations for Obama, nor did I think he was Superman. I don't agree with everything he does, but I do know he's a hell of a lot smarter than I am, and most of his advisor's are, as well. I watched George Bush/Dick Cheney destroying our country for 8 years - I don't expect Obama to be able to undo it all in 3 months.

[jefferson_dem]

67. Some are having a difficult time adjusting to actually having a friendly regime in control...

n/t

[Barack_America]

70. I think you're right.

The martyr thing seems to be quite hard to let go.

[BlooInBloo]

68. The mistake was in thinking that DUers like Democrats....

In truth, they just want to complain.

[wyldwolf]

69. told you!!

:P

[countingbluecars]

71. I agree. n/t

[Marrah_G]

72. What did you expect to happen?

Did you expect everyone to be happy with everything he does?

That's pretty unrealistic.

The majority of posters will like some things, hate other things, and be neutral on yet more things.

Then you will have some who feel he can never ever do anything wrong and anyone critizing anything he does MUST be a freeper, Puma, traitor, hater, etc etc.

Then you will have those who feel he can never ever do anything right and anyone praising him is a kool-aid drinking, messiah worshipping, cult member.

Groups 2 and 3 make the most noise.

[Barack_America]

74. I was hoping for civil discussion, confidence and, yes, a little bit of solidarity.

But that doesn't seem to be how DU does business, regardless of who is running Washington.

I agree that we're talking about a vocal minority here, but I've seen some respected and normally logical posters get taken in by it as well. Also, the drama created by the more histrionic posters is stifling intelligent discussion. It's disappointing and, frankly, embarrassing.

[mix]

90. scold

nt

[liberalsince1968]

93. Tough. Now you know how Hillary supporters felt when it was against the rules to say anything

the slightest bit negative against Obama, but bashing Hillary with impunity was A-0K.