Hillary Clinton leaves flowers for Our Lady of Guadalupe, asks ‘Who painted it?’

[ProSense]

Hillary Clinton leaves flowers for Our Lady of Guadalupe, asks ‘Who painted it?’

Mexico City, Mexico, Mar 27, 2009 / 04:59 pm (CNA).- During her recent visit to Mexico, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made an unexpected stop at the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe and left a bouquet of white flowers “on behalf of the American people,” after asking who painted the famous image.

The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was miraculously imprinted by Mary on the tilma, or cloak, of St. Juan Diego in 1531. The image has numerous unexplainable phenomena, such as the appearance on Mary’s eyes of those present in the room when the tilma was opened and the image’s lack of decay.

Mrs. Clinton was received on Thursday at 8:15 a.m. by the rector of the Basilica, Msgr. Diego Monroy.

Msgr. Monroy took Mrs. Clinton to the famous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which had been previously lowered from its usual altar for the occasion.

After observing it for a while, Mrs. Clinton asked “who painted it?” to which Msgr. Monroy responded “God!”

Clinton then told Msgr. Monroy that she had previously visited the old Basilica in 1979, when the new one was still under construction.

After placing a bouquet of white flowers by the image, Mrs. Clinton went to the quemador –the open air area at the Basilica where the faithful light candles- and lit a green candle.

Leaving the basilica half an hour later, Mrs. Clinton told some of the Mexicans gathered outside to greet her, “you have a marvelous virgin!”

This evening Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is set to receive the highest award given by Planned Parenthood Federation of America -- the Margaret Sanger Award, named for the organization's founder, a noted eugenicist. The award will be presented at a gala event in Houston, Texas.

link

If this was Obama the media would have crucified him. Remember the DVD incident?

[ArchieStone1]

1. When a scientist proves to me that it was "miraculously" imprinted, then I'll believe it

For now I'll go with the sane explanation: A human painted it.

[Hansel]

2. Seems like reasonable assumption. n/t

[LiberalFighter]

Remember that religion is all about faith not reason.

:eyes:

[Arugula Latte]

95. Make shit up, call it religion, and get offended if anyone questions it.

That's the way to go.

[LooseWilly]

176. No.

[KittyWampus]

4. and be sure to tell any woman you want to have sex with you're only doing it to satisfy your

evolutionary need to pass on DNA.

[ArchieStone1]

6. I don't see the analogy there

But thanks for sharing.

[KittyWampus]

8. If you're going to be a Reductionist and insist on applying it to all situations

be consistent and apply it to your personal life.

[ArchieStone1]

15. I still don't see how the two situations compare

Situation number one was about believing in assertions only when these are backed up by science.

in situation number two, science has proven that sexual desire can be triggered not necessarily by evolution and DNA and whatever it is that you used as an example, but also by hormones that make a man want a woman.

[Webster Green]

45. Um...

WTF are you talking about? :silly:

[Kalyke]

65. Oh SNAP!

And thank you from a Christian who is tired of the endless derision from atheists.

I have no problem with people not believing - it's when they ridicule me and others for believing that I love seeing responses like yours. :)

[LooseWilly]

181. Apply it to personal life?

Ok, when you, personally, prove to him/her, personally, that it was a miraculous imprint...

Or wait... no... you want that skepticism to be applied to... personal life?

As if he/she was claiming that his/her sex life was... a miracle from God?... and more particularly from Mary, the Virgin of Catholic mythology?

And, wait... what, exactly, would the Saint of Virginity have to do with a sex life?

Or, no... you're trying to force a scientific critic into turning his/her science into the same sort of mythological hocus pocus in his/her life as the Virgin de Guadalupe is in so many Catholics' personal lives?

How's this:

"Next time you try to get a Virgin to have sex with you, and convince her that she will not lose her Virginity, point out to her that, with the use of a condom, even anal sex has negligible chances of VD transmission... and it also does not generally damage the hymen, the marker of "Virginity". "


There, is that the sort of personal application of science you were looking for to "turn the tables"?

[burning rain]

91. The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe...

is something material, so it begs the question of origin. So a better analogy would be speculating as to the origin of any woman a guy would want to make love to. Was she more likely born of human parents, or did the Devil send her, a succubus, to lure me into sin? An easy call, I'd say.

[spoony]

156. Lol, that gets 'em every time

:)

[LooseWilly]

178. Wait, did you just equate romance/seduction to religion?

I mean... really? This isn't Hinduism with the Kama Sutra and all that... this is Catholicism... and Marianismo at that... the deification of the Virgin...

Please, people, at least think through the implications of your analogies...
Metaphors 101 and Allegories 25. Required coursework for those who wish to dabble in analogies...

[dysfunctional press]

190. what should a guy who's had a vasectomy tell them?

:shrug:

[karynnj]

34. It doesn't matter if a human did paint it - it matters that the entire importance of this cathedral

is that it is at this point where religious Mexicans believe a miracle occurred. That she did not know this, after visiting in the 1970s, is mind boggling. Think of where you visited as a tourist - I know in Crete and Sri Lanka, I was told or read the mythology of the places I was seeing. If HRC didn't believe and knew this, the question would be offensive. I suspect she didn't know and blame the State department staff for not adding that info to her briefing as this place was on her itinerary.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

136. This latest gaffe IS mind boggling-some rest & more time to do her homework might help.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

143. Yes, I always thought dignitaries had "people" who filled them in on....

...cultural ...hmmmm stuff

[roguevalley]

148. she's methodist. she might not be up on her catholic iconography. I bet she

will be next time.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

153. I agree. Hillary's a quick learner - just wish she'd do more to avoid such embarrassing mistakes.

[karynnj]

160. She visited the cathedral before

Have you ever visited a cathedral, temple, ruin etc from a culture different than your own? I have and I can't imagine not reading the information or listening to an English guide. There is no more significant Catholic site in the Americas. I wasn't Buddhist or Hindu, but I learned the significance of each place I visited in Sri Lanka - from my daughter, who had completed her study abroad there.

[roguevalley]

163. yes I have. your tone is harsh for my remarks. I looked it up but I

was a tourist and not someone balancing the world on the head of a pin. But that's just me.

[karynnj]

164. Sorry - the tone wasn't intentional

She visited in 1979 - that was before she and Bill even had Chelsea. She was a tourist - just like you or me then.

If anything, as SoS, she had more reason to know, because she should have been briefed.

[freemarketer6]

134. I choose to believe the supernatural version. Such departures

provide me a temporary respite from this all too real scientific world with it pedestrian painters.

[LooseWilly]

182. Well, believe as you will...

... but I, personally, do not consider painters to be "pedestrian".

In point of fact, I consider them to be every bit as "divine" as the words of any "poet" of any religion in the world.

If you consider painters "pedestrian", I submit to you that you are as much a product of the "all too real scientific world", and that your temporary respites in the "oasis" of religion are even more "pedestrian" than any turning to painters...

Then again... I'm probably a Free Mason...

[omega minimo]

180. you guys are gettin reel good at this

[Sanity Claws]

3. This sounds like an attempt to crucify Hillary Clinton

I have my doubts that this happened exactly as written. She's no dummy.

[ArchieStone1]

5. Consider the source: "Catholic News Agency"

'nuff said.

[ProSense]

9. The right wingers are freaking out.

From a left blog:

I assume Clinton just didn't know any of this and hadn't been properly briefed, but maybe she naively thought that the folklore had, in the church's official story, given way to a less ridiculous account, and wanted to talk about that.

Oh well -- at least she didn't ask how condoms cause AIDS.

link

Like I said, if this was Obama, the media and others would be blowing a fuse. And this comment: "you have a marvelous virgin." I can only imagine.

[Sanity Claws]

16. What if it had been written as,

"You have a wonderful Virgin." The capital V would place Our Lady of Guadalupa together with the Black Madonna, Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Fatima -- a perfectly reasonable statement in the eyes of this former Catholic.
The lower case "v" makes Hillary sound stupid.

[ProSense]

19. I really don't think

a "v" or "V" is the problem with this episode. Still, it's interesting to see benefit of the doubt and excuses replace the cries of embarrassing and possible outrage that would have accompanied this report had Obama been involved.

[laugle]

169. Same old crap

from you, always trying to divide our members with your hate of Hillary. Get a clue; Hillary is now on the Obama team!!

Save the snark!!

[backscatter712]

77. Quite possibly.

Note the source: the "Catholic News Agency".


When I hear multiple confirmations of this gaffe from more mainstream and credible sources, I'll take it seriously.

[a la izquierda]

7. The eye phenomenon in the tilma is creepy.

I saw it in Mexico City last summer. It's very weird.

I hope that this story is an error in translation. HRC isn't stupid, but to be fair, it: 1) probably is a painting and; 2) really, really looks like a painting.

[marylanddem]

11. You saw your own reflection in Guadalupe's eyes?

[Marie26]

83. Supposedly

you can see the reflections of various figures in her eyes, just as you would in a real person's. Most paintings don't have that level of detail.

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=11273

[a la izquierda]

150. Not my own...but supposedly

the reflection of Juan Diego and the others who were in the room (the Bishop, whose name I forget). I saw the original tilma, but couldn't see the eyes up close. However, for some reason, most paintings have the eye situation reproduced. It a dimly lit, ancient church, the eyes are creepy.

[ArchieStone1]

17. Someone could have painted this in the eye

Paintings in very small areas are not unheard of.

[Smarmie Doofus]

20. It's definitely a painting. God told me so. nt

[karynnj]

104. No one ever said that she is stupid

The difference may be that unlike some career diplomats or even other politicians, she is not tremendously interested in other cultures, at least as it concerns other religious beliefs. It is very surprising to me that she visited it before and didn't remember the most significant reason it is important to Latin Americans.

[terisan]

10. The Monsignor erred. Circumstantial evidence points to the Mother of God as the Painter. nt

[ClarkUSA]

12. “you have a marvelous virgin!” lololol!

:rofl:

[Bolo Boffin]

14. "Be a shame if anything happened to it."

I'm thinking we aren't getting the full scoop here.

[ClarkUSA]

39. I'm sure Hillary's brightest rhetorical rejoinders are ahead of her... at least I hope so.

See reply #18 for more Hillaryous Hillaryisms. :rofl:

[PBS Poll-435]

107. I would read #18, but it was deleted/removed

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[ClarkUSA]

111. Along with your nasty personal attack. Never mind... facts have way of surfacing again and again.

[PBS Poll-435]

113. I am sure that that iteration will be deleted too

Nasty personal attack?

What are you talking about?

[ClarkUSA]

121. lol! To my knowledge, facts quoted from Reuters are not in violation of DU rules.

Your inability to tell the truth is amusing, given I have a screensaver of the entire subthread before it was deleted.
I guess some DUers "are so fucking petty" they won't take responsibility for their actions.

[Jennicut]

13. Jeez. And innocent question. How dare a SoS ask it?

At least she is not off shoe shopping and is doing her job.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[karynnj]

105. To me the bigger faux pas with the Russian "button"

was that no one in our state department spoke up to say that "the button"would have negative cold war echoes to some - and the fact that they didn't use Cyrillic letters was mind boggling.

She was pretty awkward in China as well. She did ok on her middle eastern trip - though there were no hints of any real accomplishments.

BUT - in spite of all of that, it seems true that her name and fame automatically makes her visits a higher level than other Secretaries of State would have. That is useful for Obama and the US and it took guts for HRC to take a position that was all foreign policy, where her greater expertise is domestic policy. She was not someone who has been a foreign policy expert for the Democratic party.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

138. One would have to think Hillary can only get better from here.

[karynnj]

159. I would hope so - if she sees these as problems

This is a woman in her 60s, who was a First Lady, and Senator and now Secretary of State. In all of these, it was a case of not really being having an interest in the perspective of the people meeting her. That may not be something that can be learned. It might get better as her staff begins to realize that they need to brief her on customs, religion etc.

[burning rain]

168. What, you expect...

the US government's Russian linguists to know the Cyrillic alphabet? Completely unreasonable!

[TwilightGardener]

21. Hey, I'm Catholic, and I didn't know the story behind it--but still, her staff

should have filled her in. Oh well, no biggie.

[MadHound]

22. Whoops, somebody forgot to do their prep work

If Hillary didn't know this, then her staff certainly should have been on the ball. A minor, but telling gaffe on the part of the SoS.

[Smarmie Doofus]

23. She should have responded, "No, I mean *really*."

>>>>>After observing it for a while, Mrs. Clinton asked “who painted it?” to which Msgr. Monroy responded “God!” >>>>>>>

But she changed the subject instead. That's why she's S of State and I'm not.

Slightly off topic: anyone know what proportion of Mexican citizens actually beieve in Guadalupe? I.e. the "miracle" part? My guess is " not a lot".

Hillary's first really great moment as SOS, imo. Inadvertent though it may have been.

[lunatica]

42. You're ignorance is breathtaking

And your comments are dismissively cavalier of one of the most important icons of Mexico. You should watch the massive pilgrimages that the indigenous people make to her Cathedral sometime. I've seen some that were hundreds of miles long, stopping and diverting traffic for days. You may think, in your superior way, that belief in the Virgin is laughable or stupid or unimportant, but you don't take into account that she represents the huge majority of indians and the poor in a country that has a plethora of both. One doesn't need to believe in this to understand it's importance in people's lives.

I suggest you educate yourself a little before you run off at the mouth about things you obviously know nothing about

[Smarmie Doofus]

55. But I AM trying to educate myself. Did you not read my post?

>>>>>Slightly off topic: anyone know what proportion of Mexican citizens actually beieve in Guadalupe? I.e. the "miracle" part? My guess is " not a lot".>>>>>

Would you care to answer the question? Miles of people ( Americans) lined up to see a peanut butter sandwich in NJ a few years ago. It had the image of Jesus on it ... or something like that. This episode doesn't establish much about the *average* intelligence, gullibility, credulity, incredulity or anything else about the *average* American ( or New Jersyan)... which is what I'm interested in, and what I am speaking to.


You DO claim :

>>>>>>that she represents the huge majority of indians and the poor in a country that has a plethora of both>>>>>

but that's not the citizenry of the country as a whole and... so far... it is only a CLAIM. I'll happily look at any link you have to back that up.



And calm down. I realize some people react emotionally to religion but this is by definition a *progressive* site and you are going to pass many unhappy hours here if you adopt a zero tolerance policy toward people who do not believe in the supernatural.

[lunatica]

Your comments are not about spiritual or the supernatural.

They are about respecting the profound beliefs of millions of people. I am an Agnostic but that doesn't give me the right to be rude and cavalier about the beliefs of others. That would make me ignorant.

Find your own links, since you're claiming you're educating yourself. Google "Virgin of Guadalupe" and you'll find 2,390,000 links.

[karynnj]

117. Your arrogance and rudeness are beyond belief

The point is NOT whether people here are willing to consider the likelihood that there was a miracle there - but the fact that this is an extremely important religious cultural place in Mexico.

It is not good for the top diplomat to not understand the culture in a country that borders us enough to have any interest in this.

This is NOT equivalent to a peanut butter sandwich in NJ - a state that likely has a HIGHER average intelligence than yours - and definitely has a better ability to respect the cultures of others.

[Smarmie Doofus]

126. Specify an example of my "rudeness"in this thread. nt

[karynnj]

130. Read the comment I commented on

and the one before it. you were rude to the person you were responding to. In addition, you had no concept that diplomacy doesn't mix with attacking the beliefs of others.

[Smarmie Doofus]

131. Here's the entire text of my comment. Specify the "rude" part.

But I AM trying to educate myself. Did you not read my post?
>>>>>Slightly off topic: anyone know what proportion of Mexican citizens actually beieve in Guadalupe? I.e. the "miracle" part? My guess is " not a lot".>>>>>

Would you care to answer the question? Miles of people ( Americans) lined up to see a peanut butter sandwich in NJ a few years ago. It had the image of Jesus on it ... or something like that. This episode doesn't establish much about the *average* intelligence, gullibility, credulity, incredulity or anything else about the *average* American ( or New Jersyan)... which is what I'm interested in, and what I am speaking to.


You DO claim :

>>>>>>that she represents the huge majority of indians and the poor in a country that has a plethora of both>>>>>

but that's not the citizenry of the country as a whole and... so far... it is only a CLAIM. I'll happily look at any link you have to back that up.



And calm down. I realize some people react emotionally to religion but this is by definition a *progressive* site and you are going to pass many unhappy hours here if you adopt a zero tolerance policy toward people who do not believe in the supernatural.

[doyourealize1]

145. ...

I also find you very rude!

[Smarmie Doofus]

155. Why? nt

[Richard Steele]

101. I think your "not a lot" guess would be very wrong.

Have you seen the CROWDS that it gathers regularly?
People save their money for years to make PILGRIMAGES to it.

A LOT of people.

[Smarmie Doofus]

127. Perhaps. Any stats on it?

Large crowds, sometimes IMMENSE crowds gathered at Sarah Palin rallies in the US... but she wasn't especially popular with MOST of the citizenry.

"Large crowds" can be misleading. They also can often be misled. And very often are.

[Richard Steele]

140. Palin's crowds were "immense"... compared to what? Kmart blue-light specials?

I get the feeling that you and I just aren't going to get anywhere
by discussing this any further. And that's all I have to say about that.

I'm going to put you on "ignore" now, Smarmie Doofus.
Please don't take it personally- it's strictly a personal medical precaution
on my part. Blood pressure issues, donchaKnow.

You have a nice day now, Y'hear? :hi:

[a la izquierda]

151. Um, I was in Guadalajara on the Virgen's day.

This past December. There were tens of thousands of people there. Happy? That's not even Mexico City. Perhaps not everyone believes in the miracle, but millions of people believe that the Virgen protects the country.

[Smarmie Doofus]

158. So... there aren't any stats?

We've already established that there are large crowds associated with Guadalupe. As there are with the Indy 500, papal visits, the World Series, the Nurmeberg Rallies, Woodstock and heretic burnings.

That there are large crowds does not establish that *most* Mexicans believe in Guadalupe, miracles or that God ...and not a human artist.... painted the icon in question.

[AngryAmish]

152. Do you know any Mexicans?

[Adelante]

24. How silly - she's not even Catholic

Mexicans understand these things.

[ProSense]

25. Neither is Obama. n/t

[Adelante]

29. What?

[ProSense]

30. Did you read the OP? n/t

[Adelante]

31. Yes, I did read it

I always read your OPs :hi:

However, I was reacting to the article, not you.

[biopowertoday]

26. White roses. Sweet. Your

comment about the DVD's is flamebait.

[ProSense]

27. Really? The media is going to be offended? n/t

[biopowertoday]

46. It was sweet of Hillary to give roses. I do not

care what the media thinks about this issue nor your attempt to flame bait.

[merh]

28. It doesn't matter how it really was created, what matters is

you don't insult the church leaders by asking about it. She should have done just a tad of reading before entering the church. They lowered the framed image just for her, that was "special" salute to her.

The Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe

Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared in Mexico as the pregnant Mother of God to Saint Juan Diego, a Chicemeca Indian, on December 9, 10 and 12, 1531. She left a Miraculous Image of her appearance on his cactus fiber cloak, or "tilma", which still exists today for all to see in the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City.

Our Lady came to offer faith, hope and consolation to the oppressed natives of Mexico and to reconcile then with their Spanish rulers. She put an end to the bloody human sacrifice of the Aztecs and converted nine million natives in the next nine years!

[lunatica]

44. Her image is as iconic as the Shroud of Turin is

And it's also on a shroud which is said to belong to Juan Diego, a poor indian man.

[merh]

48. If it were condi or bush who made the mistake

many laughing at it now, saying "no big deal" would be laughing the loudest at condi or bush.

HRC should be embarrassed - that was a screw up with no excuse.

[lunatica]

53. It may have been a Gaffe, but it was not a Sin, nor do I think the church leaders

would consider it a Sin to ask such a question. I doubt that they even consider it anywhere near a Blasphemy. Yes, she should have been more prepared, but I doubt that anyone thinks it's anything more than a question based on ignorance. I'm sure she's been forgivable by the Church.

[merh]

57. No one said it was a sin or blasphemy, you need to stop exaggerating.

It was a huge embarassing mistake, shows that HRC doesn't care about the people of the city she visited, that she doesn't care enough to understand their culture and social norms.

You need to deal in reality and stop twisting posts, it would help you better understand the discussion and might make your posts worthy of some consideration. As it stands, your response is nonsense as no one said she sinned.

[lunatica]

64. So do you need to stop with your exaggerating

About how bad Hillary's gaffe is. It was very minor except in your mind. Bill and Hillary Clinton are quite popular in Mexico.

[merh]

66. I'm not exaggerating, she made a huge embarrassing mistake

more popular then Bill and Hillary would be the Virgin Mary and her son, JC, to mock their beliefs about the two is a huge mistake - to question who painted the image of the gift they revere and honor is to show little understanding and/or respect for their culture and beliefs.

It was hardly diplomatic.

[lunatica]

68. She made an embarrassing mistake. Not a huge embarrassing one.

That's exaggeration.

[merh]

76. Wrong again, but that just illustrates your ignorance of the culture

of the people of the city and of Mexico. As was noted in the article:

Msgr. Monroy took Mrs. Clinton to the famous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which had been previously lowered from its usual altar for the occasion.

They were honoring Clinton's appearance by lowering the image for her, the least she could have done (should have done) was understand the importance of that gesture and the importance of the image to the people. It wouldn't have taken much to just take a minute to read up on the image to understand the symbolism involved.

The city of Guadalupe grew around the existence of the image and the belief in the miracle of the virgin mother's appearance at the city - the blessings she left and she offered. To not know the history reflects a lack of caring about the people and their culture.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

142. Clearly NOT a sin. Just a stupid, but honest mistake. A simple apology should suffice.

[Vanje]

78. "If it were Condi or Bush".....

Bush would have pulled a sharpie from his breast pocket , and signed the Tilma.

[jberryhill]

82. Lol /nt

[merh]

139. No way,

they never trusted bush with a sharpie, they only let him use washable markers and crayons.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

141. Exactly right-Hillary needs 2 apologize quickly 4 any slight & get this behind her.

[karynnj]

32. The strange thing is that she added she had been there before in 1979

Now, in 1979, she would have been a regular tourist. What regular tourist does not read anything about the place they visit, listen to no tours etc.

Whether you believe that the image is a miracle or not, the reason for this being an important place for Catholic Mexicans is because it is seen as the place of a miracle. The question I have is why didn't her staff give her a concise - even 2 line - cheat sheet on the place she was visiting. They could have prevented this moment of awkwardness. (Here, it didn't seem to hurt her with Mexicans, but it does seem to show a pattern that someone in the state department needs to do a better job preparing the very busy SoS. )

[AzDar]

33. Who deleted this post? GOD.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

35. I have never liked Hillary as much as I do right this minute

I hope she asks the same about the Shroud of Turin

[KittyWampus]

37. So you think American dignitaries should be douchebags to satsify your own need

to call out others when regarding their important relics and landmarks?

Thankfully, you will never represent me or anyone else as an American diplomat.

BTW, if you can't respect others, you really don't deserve respect yourself.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlooInBloo]

41. +1

And I'm second to none in my derision of religion. Then again, I'm a private citizen.

[burning rain]

185. Maybe you can tell me how...

asking "Who painted it?" of an obvious painting, or commenting afterwards, "You have a beautiful Virgin!" constitutes douchebaggery? Seems to me any reasonable person, religious or not, would see those remarks as friendly, expressing a natural interest in the piece of art she was beholding.

It does not surprise me, however, to see the Catholic News Agency implying that Hillary had insulted believers, nor am I shocked to see the gratuitous mention of Planned Parenthood or Margaret Sanger or eugenics at the end of the CNA piece, so as to further slime Hillary and get the anti-choice crowd worked up.

[ClarkUSA]

36. Is this the not-so-immaculate birth of yet another Hillaryism?

See reply #18 for others.

:rofl:

[DURHAM D]

43. She probably asked who framed it?

Was that God's work also?

[Zuiderelle]

47. I don't expect her to know every tiny little detail about everything, but maybe her advisors could

have learned a bit more than they apparently did. Whatever the case, this whole thing is just ridiculous. Who the hell cares whether or not she knew that people believed that God painted something that a human being OBVIOUSLY painted. I know I don't.

[TayTay]

49. The Secretary of State works for the President

was appointed by the President and her nomination was successfully guided through the Senate confirmation process by the President and his allies in the Congress. She would not be Secretary of State without the President Obama. She works for him as his representative at the State department and everything she does is a reflection on that choice.

This line therefore makes no sense: "If this was Obama the media would have crucified him. Remember the DVD incident?"
If something happens with the Secretary of State of the United States, then it happens to the President at whose pleasure she serves. (As do all Cabinet secretaries.) They are interrelated.

[ProSense]

51. This statement wasn't about official roles in the administration

This line therefore makes no sense: "If this was Obama the media would have crucified him. Remember the DVD incident?"

It was also not about how such coverage would reflect on the Obama administration. It is an observation based on the recent furor in the media over the DVD incident.

[TayTay]

52. Then what does it mean?

That the SoS is getting preferential treatment? That the SoS occupies a higher plateau with the media than does the President of the United States? I still don't get what you are implying here.

And that news source that you site is really bad. They have all of the credibility of Faux News without the charm. (Yeah, it's that bad.)

[ProSense]

54. Well

the orignial sources for the DVD story weren't credible either. Still the media ran with it, and it became the big furor on the blogs for a period.

I don't know what it means. It's an observation, and the double-standard seems strange to me.

[TayTay]

56. But the way to make the double standard go away is not to perpetuate it

If the double-standard is a worry for you then why enable it? Two wrongs still don't make a right, do they?

What does the treatment of Hillary by this fake news service have to do with what happened on the DVD thing (that I apparently either missed or didn't hear about, btw. Must have been away from DU for a few days during that one.)

The Secretary of State is not as closely monitored as the President and doesn't generate nearly as many news stories. Is that the problem here, the disparity of coverage?

[ProSense]

58. You're right, two wrongs don't make a right. Still

I felt the need to highlight the double-standard. I may never do it again. Hillary is closely monitored, at least more than any other cabinet member, every thing from the red button gift to the current award. It will be interesting to see the coverage going forward, that is in terms of the double-standard.

[joshcryer]

175. Monitored by people like you, maybe.

Everyone else is getting on with life and enjoying watching her do her job. Took you long enough to find this bit of 'news' anyway.

[lunatica]

50. Hillary didn't commit a sin, although she may feel it was a gaffe

And believe it or not it wasn't that important as she was given what they believe is the right answer. Of course, I would have said that it was the Virgin who 'painted' it through a miraculous transfer of her image with instructions to Juan Diego to take it to the Catholic Archbishop as proof of a miracle. In time it has been accepted as a miracle by the Church.

By the way there have been attempts to destroy it which have failed, giving it even more 'miraculous' power. In 1921 a bomb was placed in front of the altar but when it exploded the heavy gold cross which stood in front of it deflected the blast and left the shroud (which is behind glass) unscathed. The cross is still there curved backwards from the blast. Here's a photo of it

[Peacetrain]

59. She is not Catholic, and to assume she would have that knowledge

on what people believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe, is just basically stupid. I am UCC, and do not expect everyone to know everything about my belief system, etc etc etc

[ProSense]

62. Sorry, that's not a valid argument.

She is the SOS, America's top diplomat. She isn't a lot of things, but that doesn't mean she isn't expected to know about other cultures. That's the reason for briefings.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

60. She's not Catholic, why should she know the story?

:shrug:

[JohnnyLib2]

61. So how is it going over in Mexico?

Seems like that might be relevant.

Google-time.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

149. My relatives don't care. They never heard about it until I asked them.

[RetroLounge]

63. It was a good question

I prefer reality to more religious superstition.

not to mention Flamebait bullshiit...

RL

[Metric System]

67. Looks like somebody is trying to re-start the old war: Hillary vs. Obama. EVERYBODY PICK SIDES!!!

You are so transparent and nobody on DU will be shocked to see that you have started such a thread. And, by the way, there's a difference between questioning why the media is tougher on the President's gaffes than the Secretary of State's gaffes, and encouraging/hoping for negative coverage. You are doing the latter. What you have done is akin to someone trolling Free Republic for the latest "conspiracy" of the day about President Obama and re-posting it on DU, demanding that the media make hay out of it too.

[girl_interrupted]

69. Special Olympics, anyone?

I would think a president would know better, but wait...I forgot, the guy is human & I'm sure he didnt mean to offend, but if it's Hillary it's the end of the world, she should know "better". She should, but he shouldn't? He should but she shouldn't? It's all a bunch of crap.

As a former catholic it never ceased to amaze me how pedophilia doesn't offend them. In fact the Catholic church has found a cure for pedophilia..it's called tranfer...thats's right...just move the offending priest from parish to parish., keeping him in touch with his future victims. And they are "offended" by a question about a painting?

Some catholics are "offended" by the thought of President Obama speaking at Notre Dame. After all he's pro choice. Yet when it was Condi Rice who was pro-choice, pro-gun and pro-war, well that was just fine.

Double standard? Yes, just like the one shown in this post on DU. A real "Gotcha!" Unfortunately for the OP, Hillary's ratings have gone up with both Democrats & Republicans. But we can't have that! We must bash the woman who is now a part of President Obama's administration, because.....gee i don't know. Apparently President Obama isn't bothered by Biden's gaffees. And why should he be, of either Hillary or Joe, they are human just like him. And all 3 represent us. And after the mess left them by bush, they have a lot on their plates to deal with. I don't envy the stress they must feel, having to clean his mess up. So will they make mistakes? Of course. But instead of the 90% of gaffee we got with bush, they are at under 1% and thats just fine with me.

I would think this would be a big deal on FreeRepublic, not here. I'll tell you one thing, gaffes about special olympics, DVD's, or how many states he visited, or teleprompters, my heart bursts with pride when I see President Obama speak. So nice to finally see a President who can walk and talk at the same time, who answers questions intelligently, who is trying to find solutions to the problems we face. I don't miss the days of constant bushisms, one bit. Occassional slip ups I can live with. As for Hillary or Joe for that matter, I feel the same about them...pride. This tearing down one, to make the other look better, is just plain stupid. It doesn't work & it serves no purpose. They are all part of one administration and I so want all of them to succeed.

[Zuiderelle]

73. Ditto. I'm proud of Obama and Clinton, and I recognize that they're both human.

I'll continue to criticize Obama when he makes decisions that adversely affect my hope for civil equality, but I won't criticize him for unintentional mistakes, any more than I will criticize Clinton for asking questions that may seem ill-informed. I don't expect either one of them to know everything there is to know about everyone they meet and everything they encounter. I do expect them to both learn from their mistakes and move on. And I expect people who call themselves democrats on this site to stop trying to divide us with idiotic Clinton-bashing.

[Zuiderelle]

70. Yep.

[Beacool]

92. Actually someone WAS trolling Free Republic

because that's precisely where I read it too. I also read plenty of threads attacking Obama, would it be OK with the same Hillary haters if I brought several of those threads here?

I doubt it.............

x(

[ClarkUSA]

98. Yet you have no problem posting (and defending) Rush Limbaugh's teleprompter "joke" as an OP here...

There is no end to some folks' holier-than-thou hypocrisy.

[Beacool]

103. Excuse me, Mr. Dragon,

but I'm not the one telling you on every post to get over the primaries.

Physician heal thyself.........

;-)

[ClarkUSA]

108. Try not pointing fingers at others when you're guilty of posting anti-Obama propaganda OPs.

Your ability to obfuscate is only exceeded by your tendency to rationalize your patent anti-Obama hypocrisy.
As an American citizen who supports President Obama and his foreign policy goals, I can only hope Hillary
reads her SoS briefing books better than she did the NIE prior to voting for IWR. So far, one can't tell.

[Beacool]

110. Just like Obama read the stimulus package before he signed it?

Just like Congress read it too? Just like Geithner conveniently forgot about the AIG bonuses?

It seems that plenty of people are not doing their homework.

:shrug:

We can play this silly game all night, but what's the point?

:eyes:

[ClarkUSA]

147. Pres. Obama knows perfectly well what the stimulus package details are.

Hillary was ignorant of or deliberately ignored the NIE's findings that there were no WMD and voted "aye" for the worst foreign policy blunder in Americasn history. Too bad Hillary still isn't doing her homework, as the OP and this Reuters article plainly shows. One can see why there are special envoys to do all the foreign policy heavy-lifting.

[laugle]

171. Hypocrisy Alert!

Talk about not getting over the primaries..........people in glass houses.........

Save the snark...........

[ProSense]

100. Sorry, unlike you, I don't browse Freeperville.

To paraphrase Obama know what you're talking about before hurling accusations

[Beacool]

102. CNA, Freepers, whatever...............

Same difference.

:shrug:

[laugle]

172. Blah,

blah, blah, blah..............LOL

I got a great idea, let's have a re-hash of the primaries............LOL.............anyone interested..........help.....

[laugle]

170. Actually, I'm really proud of some of the people

on this thread, they didn't take the bait. Most of us get it; if Hillary succeeds, then Obama and all of us succeed! Remember the old saying; "consider the source," the OP never posts anything positive about HRC, it's getting old............

HILLARY IS A MEMBER OF TEAM OBAMA!

[cwcwmack]

71. honestly...

you'd think the SoS would have some adviser or something that'd brief her with stuff like "who painted it"

[biopowertoday]

84. It was a clever question as the Priest got to say "God"--Now the

Church is happy and in a mostly Catholic country that is important. You go Hillary.

[Muttocracy]

133. I think it could have been a clever winking question too. nt

[tammywammy]

72. Ouch, that's pretty bad from Sec. Clinton. n/t

[PBS Poll-435]

74. PRIMARY WARS!!!!

W00T!W00T!W00T!W00T!W00T!W00T!W00T!


I thought you had moved on...

[Marie26]

75. Oooh, faux pas. nt

[ohheckyeah]

79. I agree with Hillary.

Who painted it?

[Apollo11]

187. Me too

I mean - it is obvious to me that someone must have painted it.

God forbid that anyone would question the teachings of the Catholic Church! :sarcasm:

[Phx_Dem]

80. As someone who has never been a huge Hillary fan, this is much ado

about who gives shit. When she makes a significant policy blunder or bad decision, I'll criticize her. This is nothing more than a religious gaffe, and if the people are seriously offended, then I guess they'll just have to find a way to get over it. Not everyone is as knowledgeable or enamored of religion as some.

She should have been briefed on the religious history before her visit, especially since it was her decision to visit, but that's a gaffe I can live with. In the grand scheme of things, and considering what's happening in Mexico, yawn .

I am wondering about the competence of her staff though. The Russian "gaffe" was a bigger deal and had to be pretty embarrassing for her. Her staff should never have allowed it to happen.

With the exception of a few mostly meanlingless gaffes, she seems to be doing a good job as SOS.

[depakid]

81. "If this was Obama the media would have crucified him. Remember the DVD incident?"

Yep- rookie mistake (or some other sort of blunder) by the staff. One might expect that she'd have been prepped on the history of the churh she was going to visit as well by her staff, too. Then again, maybe she was- and just thought out loud (like anyone might) without considering "I'm the top US diplomat.

[JVS]

85. She should have read about it first.

[Terri S]

86. Interesting what the media chooses to cover, isn't it?

Next to everything else going on in the world, this is really newsworthy? Maybe the media should have given Rice a bit more scrutiny when she spoke? Ya think? And when our current Secretary of State goes freaking shoe shopping while American bodies are floating in New Orleans, you let me know. Otherwise, give me a f'ing break!

[Beacool]

87. This is from CNA, but that didn't deter you. Right?

"If this was Obama the media would have crucified him. Remember the DVD incident?"

Was it necessary to add your snarky comment?

Hillary went to the Basilica de Guadalupe to pay her respects. According to what I've heard, it wasn't in her planned schedule. So what if she didn't know the full story of the tilma? She prayed, lit a candle and was blessed by Msgr. Monroy.

BTW, Hispanics by and large love both Clintons. Mexico is no exemption and she was well received, as has been the case everywhere she has gone.

Pathetic........

x(

[EFerrari]

115. NAFTA has eroded a good deal of Bill Clinton's popularity

which is too bad.

[laugle]

174. All I know is

Hillary's approval ratings are 70% dems, and surprisingly, 50% repubs!

Yeah, she's on TEAM OBAMA!

[burning rain]

88. Good for Hillary; she thinks rationally...

Hers was the natural reaction of a reasonable, modern person, upon seeing the image.

[biopowertoday]

89. I think she

asked this question on purpose---she knew the response would be "God". Now the clergy and the Catholic folks are happy. She is clever.

[burning rain]

99. Seems like she spoke in a perfectly courteous way, in any case.

Her question was a reasonable and natural one. Not like she exclaimed, "You have to be kidding!" when the rector replied. And she later lauded OLoG. What more could one reasonably ask for?

And dig that Margaret Sanger non sequitur at the end of the article in the OP. The Vatican's "pro-life" legions are certainly gunning for Hillary.

[WinkyDink]

97. Hello? It's not like she is an atheist.

[burning rain]

119. I know that; she's a relatively sober Methodist.

Theologically speaking, I mean. She can not be expected to look at an image of the Virgin Mary, whether on cloth or an oddly baked honeybun, and immediately think, "God intervened outside the natural order to put it there!" Hillary is certainly not that superstitious and is not going to react to the world that way. She is predictably going to surmise that it's the work of humans, and wonder who the painter or baker is. I see nothing disrespectful in her question or any of her statements, and I would not suggest that as secretary of state she should overturn religious beliefs -- that wouldn't exactly be diplomatic! Respectfulness is a must, but not becoming more superstitious oneself.

[WinkyDink]

166. Oh, she wasn't disrespectful; HRC is not that type of person. However, a wee bit o'homework would've

been prudent!

[burning rain]

183. It wouldn't have hurt.

But who does such research? State Department staff. Who are no great shakes with foreign languages or foreign much of anything, and never have been.

Anyhow, I'm thrilled to have a secretary of state whose greatest "faults" amount to paltry stuff like this, rather than one who beats the drum for wars of aggression.

[joshcryer]

173. My first sentiment, too. I don't understand the outrage in this thread.

[hedgehog]

90. Although members of my former parish did not know the story

of Guadalupe, Hillary's staff should be better prepared next time. It would take all of 5 minutes to give a pretty good summary of the story. Given the association of the Virgin with Mexican identity, it should be part of a basic briefing about Mexico. Her remark is sort of like asking the Japanese Emperor about the meaning of the red spot on Japan's flag.



Some maintain that the image is of the pregnant Virgin, and in some circles the Virgin of Guadalupe is now associated with protection of the unborn. By juxtaposing the story of Hillary receiving a medal from Planned parenthood, the Catholic News Agency (which by the way is not operated by the Church) is engaged in editorializing.

[karynnj]

112. Exactly - her staff should have told her as soon as she started to go there

of the significance.

It is still mystifying to me that she said she went there in 1979 and she didn't know the story. Having toured historical places, I can't believe she wouldn't have read anything before going, while she was there or that there were no English language brochures or guides explaining it. You would think a young HRC and likely Bill Clinton would have been interested in the history. (Even visiting a much less significant church in Athens, there were explanations of the patron saint in many languages - including English. The same goes with Seville and Cordoba in Spain and at some Budhist or Hindu temples in Sri Lanka.)

[PBS Poll-435]

114. Probably not a shock,

But this article may or may not be accurate.

Just consider the source.

[karynnj]

118. Do you know more about the source?

Although I grew up Catholic, this source is new to me. We got a weekly paper that I think was called "our Sunday Visitor. I googled and every story uses this one article as the source - including the right leaning Daily Telegraph (UK). If not true, the State Department should deny it.

I do think that adding the Planned Parenthood award to this article was pretty weird.

[PBS Poll-435]

122. They are the AP/Reuters of the Catholic world

Biased? You betcha!

[karynnj]

123. It was shocking the number of google links - yet not one was independent

Of that source. What is clear is the story - on the blogosphere is getting BIG play. If it is not true, it should be denied.

[PBS Poll-435]

124. Hillary, the Department of State, and the Obama Administration

are above it.


I tend to believe that she asked the question already knowing the answer, but trying to get some passionate feedback from the Msgr.

[karynnj]

128. I was meaning if she DIDN'T ask the question

I'm just going by the fact that I knew the story - not from a Catholic childhood, but from articles explaining Latin America and the role of the liberation theology. Also because it said HRC was there in the 1970s - I think it unlikely she didn't know - and if she knew, the question would not have been asked - it would seem clueless. HRC is way to serious and intelligent to want to act dumb.

As to above it - if a negative story has many many pages of google links and the original story is a source that many might trust. (I am not meaning it is unbiased - I'm meaning it is not the National Enquirer.) It is also targeted to a swing group, whose support for the Obama agenda should be good - there is a strong social justice movement in Catholicism. In addition, I was simply meaning a simple comment to the source or a comment by Gibbs - just to provide something media matters or other fact checkers could reference.

[PBS Poll-435]

93. I am not shocked that Hillary was unaware of the story

I learned it attending Catholic school as a child.


Story is similar to Saint Elizabeth of Hungary.

[JI7]

94. seriously though, who did paint it ?

[merh]

144. Here is some info on that

~snip~

According to the story generally accepted by Catholics, Juan Diego was walking between his village and Tenochtitlan (now Mexico City), where the Catholic mission was headquartered, on December 12, 1531. Along the way, in the village of Guadalupe, the Virgin Mary appeared, speaking to him in his native Nahuatl language. She told him to build a church at the site, but when Juan Diego spoke to the Spanish bishop, the bishop did not believe him, asking for a miraculous sign. The Virgin told Juan Diego to gather flowers from a hill, even though it was winter, when no plants bloom. He found Spanish roses and presented these to the bishop. When the roses fell from his tilma (a kind of apron) an icon of the Virgin remained imprinted on the cloth.

~snip~

The apron Juan Diego Cuauhtlatoatzin wore was studied by Philip Serna Callahan in 1981 (The Tilma under Infra-red Radiation) with infrared rays. He reported that the portions of the face, hands, robe, and mantle had been painted in one step, with no sketches or corrections and no paintbrush strokes. The Nobel Chemistry prize recipient Richard Kuhn said in 1936 that the colouring was not from a mineral, vegetable, or animal source. Studies started in 1956 and continuing to the present by several ophthalmologists, including Dr. Javier Torroella Bueno (1956) and Dr. José Aste Tonsmann (El Secreto de sus Ojos, 2001), claim to have found images reflected in the eyes of the Virgin after amplifying the photographs to 2500x magnification. The pupils reflect a group of Native Americans and Franciscans. Some experts from the textile industry said they cannot understand how the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe has been conserved since 1531, exposed to dust, heat, and humidity, without wearing down, and without discoloration. On November 14, 1921, a factory worker placed a bomb a few feet away from the apron. The explosion demolished the marble steps of the main altar, the windows of nearby homes and it bent a brass crucifix, but the fabric suffered no damage. Since 1993, the apron has been protected by bullet-proof glass in the Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City.

Other studies dispute these assertions. The claim of a supernatural painter is challenged by a formal investigation of the apron conducted in 1556, in which it was stated that the image was "painted yesteryear by an Indian", specifically "the Indian painter Marcos". This may have been the Aztec painter Marcos Cipac de Aquino, who was active in Mexico at the time the Image of Guadalupe appeared. Disputing the claims that the paint used on the apron could not be identified, the Spanish-language magazine Proceso (2002) reported the work of the art restoration expert José Sol Rosales. He examined the cloth with a stereomicroscope and identified calcium sulphate, pine soot, white, blue, and green "tierras" (earths), reds made from carmine and other pigments, as well as gold. All in all he found the work consistent with 16th century materials and methods. Joe Nickell and John F. Fischer, reporting in Skeptical Inquirer in 1985, found that the images seen in the Virgin's eyes may be the result of the human imagination's ability to form familiar shapes from random patterns, much like a psychologist's inkblots, a phenomenon known as pareidolia.

http://www.sheppardsoftware.com/Mexicoweb/factfile/Unique-facts-Mexico15.htm

[WinkyDink]

96. There goes her invite to Notre Dame!

[bottomtheweaver]

106. Oops. Oh well.

Hey we're Americans after all. I hope she at least got a good dinner or two while she was there. :9

[Beacool]

116. I'm sure she did, Hillary LOVES Mexican food.

She eats mostly spicy food and carries a bottle of hot sauce everywhere she goes. She's also not shy about passing it around, LOL!!! She believes that spicy food has kept her healthy (that and washing her hands often).

:9

[bottomtheweaver]

120. LOL, that would explain her visit to King Taco

in Boyle Heights, which was very cool:



About the painting, I don't see it as offensive. Better she spent time in a church than cutting arms deals with Calderon to further Nazify the border.

[Beacool]

125. Oh yeah, I remember those pics.

She's with the mayor of L.A., right?

Yeah, Hillary likes her hot food and chocolate. Then again, most of us chicks love chocolate. :P

[bottomtheweaver]

129. In that case I hope she got some good mole enchilladas

while she was there, the kind with chocolate in the sauce. Worth a trip just for that, seriously!

[Beacool]

132. I like mole too,

but it's too hard and time consuming to make from scratch. I wouldn't even attempt it.

:D

[laugle]

177. I like your strategy........

When all else fails, change the subject!

I like guacamole, it's easy to make, mash some avocado's, leave some chunks, add some salsa, mild or hot, whatever you like. Of course if you want to make your own salsa, you can. I like tostidos brand, thick and chunky!

That's my cooking class for the day.....LOL

[Beacool]

188. Who, moi?????

O8)

I'm innocent, I tell you, innocent.

:evilgrin:

I like guacamole too. I make it with lime juice, red onions cut small, diced tomatoes, a little bit of some hot pepper chopped very fine, salt, pepper and cilantro to taste.

Some nice organic chips and dive in!!!

:9

[JI7]

146. king taco is so good

[Beacool]

154. Is it?

Pity they don't have one around here.

:(

[Name removed]

109. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

135. Hillary needs to educate herself more about the places she visits to avoid embarrassment.

[Occam Bandage]

137. I'd like to know who painted it, too.

"lol God did" is silly.

[demokatgurrl]

162. I would too-

it was a totally legitimate question IMHO. I'm encouraged.... could she be.... a SKEPTIC???
Nah.

[spoony]

157. Well, I think the exchange was funny

It's clear no offense was intended, nor apparently taken, and I think the response was perfect.

[fujiyama]

161. She probably should have read about the mythology beforehand

or been briefed by her staff about the history of the place, just not to risk offending the people there.

I don't blame her for asking though. It was an innocent question and it obviously has been painted by a human.

[Generator]

165. "you have a marvelous virgin!”

Que diplomatico! She's working hard I see.

[IndianaGreen]

167. The Myth of the Virgen of Guadalupe (Islamic image from Spain, not Mexico!)

The Myth of the Virgen of Guadalupe

Although the Virgin of Guadalupe is best known as the patroness of the Amerikas, the story of her “miraculous” appearance at Tepeyakak, Mexiko has its roots in the province of Extremadura, Spain. It was here that a Spaniard named Gil Cordero discovered a small Islamic image which resembled the Virgin Mary on the bank of the Guadalupe river, sometime in the middle of the 13th century. The wooden image had dark brown skin and stood atop a crescent moon, the symbol of Islam. In fact, the very name of the river “Guadalupe” had an Islamic influence, as it stems from the Arabic word guadale, which means “river,” and Lupo, which is Latin for Lobo. Both the image and the river’s name were remnants of the Moorish occupation of Spain.

The discovery of the carved image was viewed as a great sign from God, and in 1338, King Alfonso XI ordered that a temple be built on the site where it was found. The image became known as “Our lady of Guadalupe,” and the temple was constructed in her honor. In order to help spread the veneration of “our lady,” artists began to paint replications of the carving and earned their money by selling prints of it.

<snip>

As Cortez and his men carried out the cultural and spiritual rape of Mexiko, they made it a point to destroy Indigenous places of study and erect Catholic churches over their ruin. In 1520, the Spaniards tore down the temple of Tonantzin at Tepeyakak and in its place raised yet another temple glorifying the Virgin of Guadalupe - a reproduction of Cortez’ banner was created and hung inside. The Spaniards figured that they could easily replace our symbol for the earth (Tonantzin Koatlikwe) with the mother of their Christian “God.”

On August 13, 1521 Mexiko-Tenochtitlan fell to the invading white forces. The genocide which followed was carried out under the pretext of religious conversion. Our ancestors were given two choices, they could either accept the white mans new religion or face a gruesome death. Not surprisingly, most of our people chose life, with the intention of preserving our traditions while faking conversion to Christianity.

In order to further facilitate the “conversion” of our ancestors, a priest named Juan de Zumarraga arrived in Anawak on December 6, 1528. A proud student of the inquisition, Zumarraga wasted no time in launching a fanatical assault on the ways of our people. He ordered that our libraries be burned, our temples destroyed, and had our teachers rounded up and killed. Thousands of our people were put to death by Zumarraga for refusing to accept the white man’s religion. And despite such humanitarian attempts at missionizing our ancestors, priests complained that the Mexikans were still holding onto their traditions while only pretending to accept the Catholic faith.

As proof of Mexikan resistance to Christianity, the priests pointed to the temple of Guadalupe at Tepeyakak, where Mexikans still gathered to venerate the energy of Tonantzin. The Spaniards had a Tlaxkalteka artist named Markos Zipaktli paint a new image to be hung in the temple at Tepeyakak. They hoped that a Virgin painted by one of their own would inspire the Mexikans to begin mixing Catholic practices with their own. Zipaktli based his painting on the original image of Cortez’ banner, but removed the 12 stars from around her head, leaving only the crown. It was during this time, right in the middle of his personal inquisition against Native people, that Zumarraga was called back to Europe by the King of Spain in the middle of 1531 (where he remained until 1534).

But not everyone was pleased with the attempts at blending the Native religions with Catholicism. On September 8, 1556, a Franciscan priest named Francisco Bustamante denounced the cult of Guadalupe, declaring “If we are trying to wean Indians away from idolatry, why force them to worship the Virgin of Guadalupe, whose image was only recently painted by the Indian Markos?”

On Sept. 25, 1575, the fourth Viceroy of Mexiko, Martin Enriquez de Alamanza, sent a letter to King Phillip II, who wanted to know why there was a temple in Tepeyakak in honor of our Lady of Guadalupe. In his letter, Alamanza stated that the Mexikans worshipped a special image at that temple - “an image of our lady, which they call our lady of Guadalupe since she looks like the Spanish Virgin de Guadalupe.” To help further clarify where the inspiration for the image had come from, Juan de Torquemada wrote in his 1612 book “Indian Monarchy” that “Our first Priests at Tepeyak built a church dedicated to the mother of God, as she appeared in Spain: The virgin of Christopher Colomubus and Hernan Cortes, our Lady of Guadalupe” (Chapter X)

http://www.mexika.org/Lavirgin.html

[Starry Messenger]

179. Well, the story is certainly making the rounds of the right wings blogs.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=hilary+clinton+our+lady+of+guadalupe&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

That went viral really quickly and there is still no author attributed to the story. (For the record, I thought all the uproar over the DVD thing was totally stupid too). To me this says, the religious right wing are still up to their old tricks. We all need to be united against their BS.

[ColbertWatcher]

184. I've never heard of Catholic News Agency.

Are they legit?

Can anyone else confirm these "quotes?"

[EmilyAnne]

186. Puhleaze! I am half Mexican and have lived in Mexico City, visiting this shrine many times.

The attendants at the basilica are accustomed to receiving huge groups of tourists from all over the world and they are not offended to answer such questions about the image.
They assume that most non Catholics don't know the story of the Virgin of Guadalupe.
In fact, the small gallery that is in the main part of the basilica is devoted to telling the very basic story, under the assumption that non Catholic visitors haven't heard it.
She was probably led right past it.
The Mexican Catholics that I know are very happy to discuss their beliefs with non Catholics.
Its a source of pride.
Its not like Hillary rolled her eyes and said, "oh, come on! Who REALLY painted it?"
She asked a question that her guide is accustomed to hearing from non Catholics and even Catholics from other parts of the world.
No harm done.

Her comment about having a marvelous virgin translates perfectly well to Spanish and DOES ACKNOWLEDGE the miraculous nature attributed to this image and will have great significance to spanish speakers. By calling it "maravillosa," she is literally calling it miraculous.

Finally, Catholics do understand that there are many different manifestations of the Virgin, so saying "a' Virgin is not strange.
The Spanish have La Macarena, The Black Virgin in the Czech Republic, Lourdes in France, Fatima in Portugal and some others.

If any Mexican Catholics were offended by this comment, I would be surprised because, as I said, it seems that they are accustomed to discussing the Virgin to non Catholics.

[Beacool]

189. Right on!!

I scanned various articles in Spanish from the local papers there and none put her down over it. Quite the contrary, most were complimentary of her visit and approved of her unplanned stop at the Basilica to place white roses at the altar, pray and receive a blessing from Msgr. Monroy.

It figures that the only ones making a big deal out of this nonsense are the RW and LW blogs, mirrors of each other in their dislike of all things Clinton.

:eyes:

BTW, I have a lot of respect for the Guadalupana and have a little statue of her in my home.

[ClarkUSA]

191. I expect this from Homer Simpson, but America's top diplomat should be better informed.

Doesn't Hillary read her briefing book? She's been a bit of a gaffe machine lately.

[Beacool]

192. Clark, give it up..........

How many times do they have to delete your subthreads about her supposed gaffes?

We get it, sweetie, you just despise the very air the woman breaths. Well, get used to it, she ain't go anywhere else for the next few years. So you might as well get used to it and enjoy the ride.

;-)

[ClarkUSA]

193. Beacool, why are you always harassing me/trying to start a fight? The primaries are over, you know.

[Beacool]

194. Ahhhhh, but you never seem to forget it................

Harassed, my foot!!!

:eyes:

[ClarkUSA]

195. That's untrue. I've long moved on and am enjoying the Obama Presidency immensely.