General Motors lost $82 BILLION dollars under Wagoner.

[geek tragedy]

From 2005-2008.

2005: $10 Billion lost
2006: $2 Billion lost
2007: $38.7 Billion lost
2008: $31 Billion lost

It was losing money when the economy was 'good' hand over fist.

If you think GM was worth more taxpayer money under his leadership, I'd love to hear why.

[xchrom]

1. is that their u.s. divisions only? nt

[geek tragedy]

2. That's GM as a whole.

I don't know if they break it down by geography.

But, I would be surprised if the company were making money in one area and losing it in another.

[Aloha Spirit]

4. I don't have numbers, but Buick was doing well in China for those years

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/03/general-motors-china-sales-continue-rapid-growth-up-25-in-1st/

[AllentownJake]

3. I'm not that concerned about the corporate entity

as much as I am watching an industry go the way of the steel industry did in my area for the midwest.

See my screen name. Billy Joel wrote a song about that.

[geek tragedy]

5. Obviously that's a big concern. But, people are acting like Wagoner

is the only man who could save the industry, or something. The poutrage was deafening.

[AllentownJake]

6. No I think people are reacting to the fact that

the CEOs of Citigroup, Bank of America, etc are still firmly on their thrones and 100 times more tax payer money has been filtered to them.

[xchrom]

7. indeed -- that is the crossroad. nt

[geek tragedy]

8. Before the economy went south, those companies

still managed to be economically viable. And, some of those companies are already talking about paying back their TARP money.

There is a big difference in the problems facing the companies. The entire financial system got itself stuck with the ABS's and CDO's and those things are now creating a liquidity crisis, for which the only answer is to circulate money.

GM simply has no idea what it's doing, and hasn't for some time.

[AllentownJake]

10. Yes they remained economically viable

Through dubious and sometimes unlawful means. What a country.

[geek tragedy]

11. Also, CITI's CEO was forced out in November 2007.

AIG's was forced out in 2008. Bear Stearns and Lehman no longer exist, so their CEO's don't have jobs.

Plenty of Wall Street CEO's have lost their jobs.

[AllentownJake]

13. Yes

and other than AIG they were replaced with someone from the E suite who was equally responsible.

I could care less about Wagoner per se. I just find it troubling that we pour a trillions of dollars into an industry that only creates paper and misery and balk at helping out an industry that actually makes a useful product.

[geek tragedy]

15. Without finance, the entire economy would collapse.

An economy without finance/credit is like a body without a heart or blood vessels.

[AllentownJake]

18. and if we don't make capital assets

In the long term we are a third world country.

Choose your cancer.

[geek tragedy]

23. I agree. Both are necessary.

The question is which are in need of bottoms-up reform (auto) and which need more regulation (finance).

[AllentownJake]

24. I think they both do

GM never nearly caused a great depression.

[geek tragedy]

29. No, and perversely the amount of harm an industry can do

changes the rule in their favor.

[amandabeech]

43. Not in my book.

If that's where you start, then you're never really going to get this cleaned up. You're just going to fall into bankster group think.

You have to look at the alternatives to them, and you have to treat them toughly because they won't respect anyone who doesn't.

[Barack_America]

9. Middle class Americans seem to have more choice about from whom they buy their cars.

Than they do about from whom they get their loans.

That's wrong, of course, but could explain why a pro-middle class politician would bailout one company above the other.

That being said, I am devastated and panicked by the news concerning GM. But the demise of the auto-industry is just about done with my family. In a family once filled with autoworkers, there's just a single sole left on the line. And he's nearing retirement anyhow. Most of the family that could have already left Michigan.

[geek tragedy]

12. I would think the $70 Billion in losses would be cause for more panic

than Wagoner walking the plank.

[Barack_America]

17. The losses too do not make the company more secure.

Don't read my post as a defense of Wagoner. It was not.

[doc03]

14. There still is a steel industry but the Union

had to adapt to changing times to save what was left. We took huge concessions starting back in the late 70's and most of us lost our pensions and our full paid retiree health insurance. Back in the late 90's when we were on the ropes and Bill Clinton would do absolutely nothing to help we took a 30% pay cut to survive. At present our company is not broke but we are getting about 15% less in pay than last summer. So far the UAW doesn't appear to make anything other than a token temporary wage freeze. Myself I am getting sick propping up the damn Financial and Auto industry with my tax money while I am working for 15% less to save my job. I read in the paper Saturday one of our local banks with 114 branch offices in 3 states bought 6 offices in Columbus with the $75m TARP money they got. Why in the hell should I pay taxes to bail these bastards out when they just use it to expand? There is all this grandstanding about the AIG bonuses by all the politicians including the President but in reality that is just a drop in the bucket, while a trillion dollars is going down a rat hole.

[amandabeech]

16. Actually, the UAW has been making concessions for some time.

I used to have the data, but I've lost it. I think that the latest give-backs came in the 2007 contract, but I could be wrong.

You just don't hear about it outside Detroit, and certainly not on DU.

I agree with you whole-heartedly about the dastardly use of the TARP money. I want it back and I don't want to spend any more on the financiers.

[doc03]

19. I heard one concession they made was new

hires start at a reduced wage rate, but with the state of the business are there actually any new Union employees anyway? I saw several years ago UAW workers receive a $130 multiplier on their pension, it's probably even more today. I can only dream of what it would be like retiring at 48 years old with 30 years service and getting $3900 a month with free health insurance. I will have 39 years next year when I retire with $1300 a month and will have to pay $400 a month for health insurance and I should help them!

[madmom]

22. I call total bullshit here, my SO just went out with 49 years, we get

$3600 a month(before taxes). What is this $130 multiplier you speak of, I would be interested to know. Where the hell did you get the idea that we get free health insurance? Man are we missing something, I know how much I pay every time I go to the doctor. Some one is feeding you a line of shit.

[doc03]

26. I remember reading that in a newspaper article posted in our

Union hall several years ago. The reason the figure stuck in my mind was we had just come off of a 10 1/2 month strike to get a $40 multiplier, which we have lost since then. Even if your claim is correct that ain't too shabby. I don't buy that $3600 figure for 49 years, there has to be more to that. Like in our pension there are different options like how much you want your widow to receive if you die first. Also GM offered (all) their employees a buy-out a year or so back for a cash payment as much as $250,000, that was reported in the national media. Did the cash buy-out reduce the monthly pension? Do you pay a monthly premium for insurance? I still work and pay co-pays and 10% of my bill up to $1000. When I retire I will have to pay over $400 a month for insurance and 20% of my bill up to $2000. I am not complaining about it either I feel damn lucky but why should I pay my taxes to pay for another persons Cadillac style plan? This is 2009 not 1959 there has been a war against Union manufacturing jobs for the last 30 years. This war has been from both political parties that bought into this so called free-trade BS. It's obvious Obama is pretty much in the same camp and it's either adapt to lower wages to keep your job or find a new occupation. I don't like it that's just the way it is. What about the low wage non-union workers with no benifits, should they pay taxes to prop up a dieing industry that refuses to adapt?

[amandabeech]

33. I think that we've had this discussion three months ago.

I don't want to go into it today, because I'm really worried about my bachelor uncle who is a UAW retiree from GM. He is terminally ill with congestive heart failure and is in a rehab hospital as we speak.

I expect him to lose half his pension and a lot of his health insurance with this deal, and he cannot work to fill in the gaps.

Good bye.

[madmom]

40. Frankly I don't care if you "buy that $3600 figure for 39 years"... I

am the one living this way, so naturally YOU know better than I. Yes we still pay for health insurance and no it does not contain an option for widow benefits.The cash INCENTIVE TO RETIRE did not change monthly pension. Yes there where offers of a $150,000 BUY OUT but that was ONLY if they severed ALL ties to GM. Meaning no pension, no health care nothing, at all, period! Apparently your pension is better than ours, so that makes your point mute. UAW has made concessions from the very get go and just because the management fucked the company royally why should the rank and file be made to suffer. We stood behind you as much as possible, the last strike we had, we where told "take what we offer or loose your job". As far as refusing to adapt you are not seeing the full picture, you are seeing only what 1. you want to see 2. what the "liberal" media wants you to see. Do some research there is WAY more information than what you have.

[doc03]

46. Apparently my pension is better than yours, that's a laugh,

try $1300 a month for 39 years. From what I see the UAW had a lot to do with the auto industry problems the same as the USWA had a lot to do with ours. It certainly wasn't all managements fault in the steel industry, there was plenty of blame to go around. We had the same problems with legacy costs the Union negotiated pensions but failed to insure the Companies funded them. Of course if we had a national health care system like the rest of the world our companies wouldn't have that problem. When we were in financial trouble the Union joined the company in petitioning the IRS to waive our pension funding for several years, talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

[madmom]

41. Frankly I don't care if you "buy that $3600 figure for 39 years"... I

am the one living this way, so naturally YOU know better than I. Yes we still pay for health insurance and no it does not contain an option for widow benefits.The cash INCENTIVE TO RETIRE did not change monthly pension. Yes there where offers of a $150,000 BUY OUT but that was ONLY if they severed ALL ties to GM. Meaning no pension, no health care nothing, at all, period! Apparently your pension is better than ours, so that makes your point mute. UAW has made concessions from the very get go and just because the management fucked the company royally why should the rank and file be made to suffer. We stood behind you as much as possible, the last strike we had, we where told "take what we offer or loose your job". As far as refusing to adapt you are not seeing the full picture, you are seeing only what 1. you want to see 2. what the "liberal" media wants you to see. Do some research there is WAY more information than what you have.

[madmom]

20. Excuse me BUT the UAW has done a helluva lot more than "token temporary wage freeze", lowering

wages to $14 an hour, cutting benefits, including health care benefits (we never had full paid retiree health insurance), they haven't had a raise in the last 3 contracts, they have increased productivity and quality while downsizing work force while still maintaining the the united labor front.There where several contracts where it was written in "nothing but American steel" UAW has already done everything you said you did, except UAW presented a united labor front for you.

[doc03]

28. Don't give me that one about American steel, the

auto industry fought tooth and nail to stop tariffs on illegally dumped steel. You may claim they didn't use foreign steel there is no way I would know that but they certainly wanted those imports coming in to suppress prices. From what I understand the Union agreed to accept a lower starting wage of $14 an hour for newly hired employees, there isn't any way a 30 year auto worker is working for any $14 an hour and you know it. We increased productivity and down sized too when I started at my job 39 years ago we had 19,000 employees now we have about 2500 with around 2000 laid off.

[madmom]

42. "the auto industry fought tooth and nail" the auto industry that makes the decisions on

these things are a bunch bean counting economists not rank and file blue collar workers. Their only interest is the bottom line. The actual in the factory UAW workers stood behind steel workers as much as possible. They believed in solidarity something it seems you know nothing about. Your attack on the UAW tells me you are one of these "I don't want to pay union dues" but I'll take the benefits, people. Quit whining about your narrow self interest and join the rest of the labor movement in SOLIDARITY and maybe we can fix what ails the manufacturing sector of this country.

[doc03]

45. I didn't say the UAW did it I said the

Auto industry meaning the companies. I am not attacking the UAW I am just saying times have changed and the legacy costs are a big part of what is killing the Auto industry. The Union workers are going to have to take some major cuts. The man the President called in to oversee this rape of the UAW is named Ron Bloom. Ron Bloom was one of the engineers of the restructuring of the steel industry. A company called ISG owned by Wilbur Ross came in and bought up a bunch of bankrupt steel companies about 6 years ago. Here is what happened a VEBA plan was set up to help pay for retiree health insurance and their pensions were dumped on the PBGC. There you go ISG now owned all these steel companies with zero legacy costs. ISG then sold them to Arcelor-Mittal and Mr. Ross walked off with a nice little profit of several billion. Don't preach to me about solidarity I was on the longest strike in the history of the steel industry for 101 days in 1985. Then in 1996 we set a another new record for steel strikes when we went out for 10 1/2 months. I've paid my f---g dues ten fold.

[doc03]

47. Who is Ron Bloom? Ron Bloom is a Union hatchet man/

scape goat, he has a history in the USWA that goes way back to the 1980's. When a company is in trouble and files bankruptcy the Union Officials bring him in to give them cover for making the hard decisions. He comes in and says you have to give up retiree health-care and your pensions to save your job and he will put the blame on the Bankers. You lose your health insurance and pensions and take other concessions and your elected Officials will say our hands were tied the Bankers made us do it, Ron Bloom takes the blame.

[FormerDittoHead]

21. Wow! Give that man a golden parachute! n/t

[Jennicut]

25. GM needs to make the switch to more alternative energy smaller cars

why such an issue?
:shrug:
Lets save the industry or bury it effectively into the ground. That is the choice.
We also need to reform health care as that is related to the costs of the US automakers but that is a whole other thread and can of worms.

[Kalyke]

30. First - they are.

Second - they didn't need to up until the gasoline heist of the summer of 2008. People don't want those little cars - or didn't.

The best-selling car, hands-down, every month, and still is: the Ford F Series. Out-sells Toyota-bots, Honda-toys and Nissan-blowupici.

Why is that?

I don't know. I don't own a truck. I have a Ford Mustang. But, for some reason, trucks are STILL selling better than anything else.

(February 2009 numbers)

* Ford F-Series: 23,614
* Toyota Camry: 20,634
* Chevy Silverado: 19,788
* Toyota Corolla: 18,103
* Nissan Altima: 16,002
* Honda Accord: 15,976
* Honda Civic: 15,687
* Dodge Ram: 14,448
* Honda CR-V: 12,370
* Chevy Malibu: 11,516

[GoCubsGo]

36. Lots of people use those trucks for business purposes...

Farmers, ranchers, landscapers, construction workers, the US Government (US Forest Service, DOE, Fish & Wildlife, DOT, etc.), state and local governments, just to name a few. Not everyone uses them for run-of-the-mill transportation. At my last job, we were often provided F-series trucks, Dodge Rams, and Silverados for field vehicles. From my experience, I understand why the Fords are the best-sellers. They're a darn good work vehicle.

[Romulox]

27. AIG lost $62 Billion LAST QUARTER; Obama admin gave AIG $30 billion anyhow.

[uponit7771]

31. Yeap, I don't see the logic in letting GM fail but ShitiBank et al survive

[berni_mccoy]

32. Obama also supported giving GM 13.4 billion with TARP (other Auto Companies received billions too)

[Romulox]

34. Compared to the over $200 billion he's supported giving to AIG (strings free!)

"(other Auto Companies received billions too)"

Only GM and Chrysler have received government monies.

[ecstatic]

35. I'm irritated with the Michigan Governor's response

President Obama is trying to help and all she can do is whine about some rich executive getting the axe? :wtf: Get your priorities in order!

[ecstatic]

37. Correction

Looks like MSNBC took her comments out of context. Sigh. Full clip here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8h-7Zq7zc

[moondust]

38. I think the question is:

"Was it his fault?" Some will naturally say that it would have been much worse if not for him. I don't know what the truth is.

Heard a guy on CNN this afternoon who seemed to have a pretty good grip on the big picture. He said that one big difference between the state of affairs at Ford versus GM and Chrysler is that Ford borrowed a LOT of money back when credit was still flowing but GM and Chrysler did not at that time, obviously not forseeing that credit would soon dry up and they'd be SOL.

[amandabeech]

44. Ford started looking for ways to restructure well before GM and Chrysler.

Billy Ford (the same family) tried when he was the Ceo back in the late '90s and early '00s. When he realized that he couldn't do it and brought in Mulally in 2003. Mulally had brought Boeing back from the edge, and he has done a much better job than Wagoner.

Mulally had the foresight to get the loans and he has also improved Ford's product to the extent that Consumer Reports even likes Ford.

I don't like Mulally's lust for outsoucing, but right now, he's pretty good.

GM needs better management, and the first thing that I would do if I was the new #1 is look for someone who can really help GM turn around. Unfortunately, it will likely take much longer than 60 days before a suitable candidate can be found and vetted. By that time Obama may have forced GM into Chapter 11, if not to force the union into submission then to force the bondholders into a haircut. Why he doesn't try the same with at least some of the criminals running institutions that took a lot of TARP money is beyond me.

[StreetKnowledge]

49. Totally agreed.

I figure GM now needs a good business guy with a knowledge of the car industry.

Two names come to mind here - Roger Penske and Bernd Pietschreider. Penske is the largest auto dealer owner in the United States and is a legendary race team owner, and Pietschreider was the boss of Volkswagen in 2004-2008. Both are brilliant guys, who could take the floundering SS General Motors snad save it.

[cwcwmack]

39. what a clusterfuck. - nt

[StreetKnowledge]

48. Wagoner needed to go.

I don't wish ill will on the man, but what GM needs right now is a businessman who both knows the car business, is from outside of GM, and will do the immense product overhaul the company needs to go after the Japanese. Wagoner didn't do that. Alan Mulally at Ford did. That's why Ford isn't living on taxpayer handouts.

When GM is back prospering, then the UAW won't matter. I hope they got the message about having to be reasonable about wages and benefits (note I said reasonable - big cuts aren't reasonable, either) and they work with the company more in the future.

[Bluenorthwest]

50. And that's 82 billion that could have gone to AIG

The rightful owners of all billions. How dare GM lose money! Only financial companies that make nothing but debt are allowed to hemmorage fortunes! When banks fail, they MUST be rewarded. Their contracts are a special sort, which are the foundation of the rule of law, but Unions have regular citizen contracts which can be voided on a whim.
I'd love to hear why failures in the financial industry are woth billions. GM at least makes cars. They just made tragedy.