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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:45 PM
Original message
There is very little here but anger.
This is not a criticism. It is simply an observation: anger is what is driving the majority of the conversation here. It is not even anger directed at anything in particular: it is diffuse, it is pervasive, and it has been building for quite some time now. Anger is beginning to have a very real effect on the quality of conversation here, to an extent it is not elsewhere. In fact, it is almost as if this site were designed by a cosmic architect to cultivate a slow-boiling anger. I will now list several problems I find contributing to this factor:

Problem the first: a lot of bad shit happened over the last eight years. Bush basically fucked up everything he touched, and fucked 'em up badly. He more or less set the grand tapestry called America on fire. We recognize this, and have been angry about this.

Problem the second: Wall Street more or less fucked over the entire country as well. We recognize this, and are angry about this. We are especially angry about the fact that in order to prevent the nation from collapsing in on itself, we have to save Wall Street from itself. (This story is more or less a repeat from 1933).

Problem the third: Obama doesn't do anger. He never has. Obama is very bad at being a national conduit for emotion. To be sure, he did develop a skill at inducing people to project positive emotions onto him during the campaign, but that wasn't always the case; during the early stages of the primary, he was dry, uninspiring, cerebral and boring. He does not naturally attempt the use of public emotion.

This third problem is one I have long seen in him. Before Iowa, I did not support him for the Presidency, but rather supported Joe Biden; I thought Obama was too "cool" and "cerebral" to stoke the public fires. Thankfully he did much to prove me wrong during the campaign, but I feel he's back to his old ways, so to speak. He thinks, and acts pragmatically; he has little love for impatience or for revanchism. That is generally a good trait for a leader in a time of crisis, but it is an unpopular one. People want their leaders to express the same values and beliefs they do, after all.

And here we have the problem on this site at the moment: people here have a lot of anger, but there's no real way to do anything about it. Obama has made no effort to relieve our anger at Bush through legal punishment for Republican wrongdoings, but instead has governed pragmatically, deciding that every possible cent of political capital should be spent on the current crisis. Obama has made only halting and half-hearted efforts to relieve our anger at Wall Street; he is mostly content to work on his policy plans and occasionally say "yeah, gee, that is pretty bad."

But wait, you, say, your problem isn't with Obama's lack of anger, it's with his plans, I don't like his plans, just look at this Krugman article, et cetera, et cetera. I think you are most likely a bit confused. The greater part of the criticism here actually has very little to do with the substance of the plans Obama has announced. Krugman's complaint, and those of the economists with whom he is allied on this issue, is predominantly on the valuation of the toxic assets covered by the Geithner plan. To make it simple for purposes of conversation, Obama thinks these have some innate value and if he backs them he can save the financial industry at low risk and great reward, while Krugman thinks they have no value beyond what the market currently thinks they have and nobody will buy what he's selling. This is a fair and reasonable argument. I personally have no idea who's right. But yet this is not the argument that DU has against it. DU complains about "handouts," and "giveaways," and "banking buddies" and "criminals" and "Wall Street insiders" and many other things that have absolutely nothing to do with any serious economic analysis of the plan itself, but rather are purely directed at expressing anger at the fact that people on Wall Street did bad things and are not going to have their toys taken away from them. Anger drives just about every discussion here.

You may be thinking that anger at Wall Street and emotional dissatisfaction with Obama's ivory-tower response are hardly endemic to DU, and you are correct. But DU has one extra factor that is slowing turning it into a hellhole: this is Democratic Underground, and this is the Presidential forum. As members of the political base of Barack Obama, we naturally expect him to speak for our feelings on issues, and are angered when he does not. As members of a site that historically forbids non-constructive criticism of Democrats, many of us find such anger-driven criticism to be unhelpful, and that in turn breeds anger. Of course, outright expression of that anger results in a quick mod intervention, which is certainly for the best, but which of course cannot treat the problem.

Frankly, I don't have a fix in mind. I'm just a little bit disheartened. Here we have the first politically aggressive Democratic President since LBJ, and this site is preoccupied almost entirely with angry brick-throwing or with angry brick-throwing at the angry brick-throwers.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Anger is often a reaction to fear. And there is plenty to be afraid of.
I know I'm afraid. And angry too.
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Ocracoker16 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. There is a lot to fear in these difficult times
I know that a lot of the anxiety that has built up inside of me at times overwhelms me and manifests itself in anger.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
52. It can be fear or it can just be anger
Maybe we're just mad as hell (it's not like we don't have reason to be) and not going to take it anymore.
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Chisox08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
116. As FDR said "We have nothing to fear but fear itself"
The last 8 years all we had peddled to us was fear.
Sure we have a lot to be angry about. Such as the lack jobs, two illegal wars torture in our names, the lack of prosecution of the Bush administration, CEOs taking home huge bonuses while laying-off thousands of workers etc. But we can't allow that anger to consume us, if we do we become nothing more than Left wing Freepers.
It is going to take a while for Obama to clean up the mess left to us by 28 years of Reagan era politics and Reaganomics
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. A lot of brick throwing going on.
It is in our nature, I guess, to throw bricks. DU will work itself out. What amazes me is that no matter what the issue, or the frame, there will be distinct disagreements. The broad divisions are one thing that I wouldn't change about DU. I learn much from the discussions that will inevitably take place from any idea put forward.

Too often though, we get bogged down on things that really don't matter.
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm still laughing
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 05:52 PM by crikkett
if that means anything to you.

I think it's the season for people to work through cognitive dissonance.

Hang in there, everything will work out and it'll be better soon.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. k&r for a thoughtful analysis
you accurately summed up quite a bit of what's going on here
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
73. Seconded.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. It certainly isn't a place to get away from all the anti-dem MSM, is it?
K&R
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Hellataz Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. Excellent Post!
It saddens me that Obama has the weight of the world on his shoulders and can't seem to even catch a break from his base. He's already battling the GOP who have waged war on every policy he makes and have vowed to sabotage his presidency, but even Obama's hard, calm and cool exterior has to be getting a few dings from the fact that his supporters aren't giving him the benefit of the doubt and trying to help support his agendas instead of bitching about the ones he hasn't gotten to YET.

That is the key words..."YET", because he will, but come on people he inherited a fucking mess and is trying to fix it the best he can, but so many here treat him like he's Bush part deux just because he either hasn't overturn all of Bush's policy fast enough or he's taken actions that are similar to Bush's. We don't have all the information Obama gets each day, we have a fraction of it, leaving him, not us, the more informed person to be making these calls. Is he trying to make these calls on his own, is he trying to pretend he knows everything...No. He's extended his hand out to anybody who can help to give him support and guidance so he can make the best decision. He deserves far more credit then DUer's are giving him lately. 60+ days and he's accomplished a lot but for everything he does well it gets overshadowed by 50 other new posts of someone bringing over some negative commentary about Obama and what he hasn't done...YET.

It's disheartening to see it here, to open threads and see "Fuck you Obama!" or "Obama doesn't give a shit about us!' or the many other harsh criticism that have been thrown at him for nothing more but a simple lack of understanding and information.

Obama is the type of man who tries see all sides of a problem and understand people he might disagree with, that's hard for some of us to get why he offers a seat at the table or lends his ear to the other side. But only seeing YOUR side isn't what being progressive is about, and it doesn't make you a good leader. I fear that if his base doesn't chill the fuck out, he might opt to listening to the moderate center or even right over time because his left liberal base has shown they can't support him during the toughest of times.

I'll continue to show my president my support and voice my concerns in a civil manner, one that he can relate to, instead of acting like a right wing fanatic brandishing pitch forks and calling for a lynching.

He's my president and I couldn't be more proud.


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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. Stages of grief--more food for thought. Keep in mind that
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 06:45 PM by geiger


(1) we knew things were fucked up but weren't really dealing with how bad (2) the campaign is over (it's hard and anti-climatic dealing with the emotional let-down); (3) the hard work is ahead and (4)we need to use our own strengths and those of Obama to move on already--that is hard work and hard to face, too. We need to follow Obama's example and start stretching our brains and taking risks, even if it's uncomfortable. We can do it if we perservere.

1. SHOCK & DENIAL-


2. PAIN & GUILT-


3. ANGER & BARGAINING-


4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS-


5. THE UPWARD TURN-


6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-


7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-


I went on the web and searched "stages of grief." This site came up at random:

http://www.recover-from-grief.com/7-stages-of-grief.html

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rucognizant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #22
69. RIght ON!
I have simply let it go. Yes Obama is tedious to listen to, so I don't BUT I have confidence in his ability to fix it as well as it can be fixed, because I see he has Integrity.
My life is running counter to the rest of the country.....WHen You all were, gaining from CLinton's boom or getting good wages, I was skimping by on $5,000. per year, dealing with agism in hiring and even slowed down by a medical condition that most Dr's didn't have the wit to correct, until I found a youngish FEMALE Dr. who does alternative medicine as well, and she simply made it possible to aquire Armour thyroid in the amount I needed to keep my mind and body running efficiently. I lost 6 years of good income over that one, so if I am down on the medical profession, I have good reason & experience.
ANy way, when things are falling apart for most I have gotten a grant from the ME Art s COmmission to do a body of paintings. To be spent on PR not food or paintbrushes..........but it is an honor and a step forward. I'm doubling my prices.and maybe I'll even sell a few! Bottom line I will get them out of my head and down on canvass!
I thank God daily that I no longer have to try to get people to see what bush was doing to them!
Stop take a dep breath and THINK. Occam's Razor has done an excellant job of bringing these things to lite.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. I had meant my post to be a direct response to Occam Razor; I'm glad you picked up on this.
It's time to face a lot of painful realities.

I can also relate to what you are saying on a personal level. Maybe its my own struggles over the past several years that makes it easier to see. Not easy to deal with, but nevertheless, the work must begin somewhere.

Keep us posted/show us some of your paintings. And keep marching forward! Best wishes.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
115. The problem is..
There are a lot of RepubliCONS on board DU stoking fires...
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. Good analysis but things are not as bad as they seem
As others have said it comes from fear and their is plenty to be afraid of.
But I feel that this is the process of working things out. In almost every one of those angry threads some good ideas and comments arise and affect some in positive ways.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. I agree. nt
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. Sometimes voters become angry when the candidate they supported doesn't keep promises. n/t
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. He hasn't really broken any.
Some have been delayed; some may never come to fruition. Those are the perils of politics.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Obviously not all agree with you which might account for you not being angry while others are. n/t
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I didn't say I wasn't angry. Moreover, what you bring up isn't a matter of agreement.
It's a matter of objective fact. Either he did or he didn't.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. ROFL n/t
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
41. He's kept more faster than any politician I remember.
Although I can't claim to have paid *close* attention before *.

And I'm one of the "I'm furious at all the money gushing out with not transparency" group.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. What "broken promises", jody?
You're going to have to do much better than that.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. ROFL n/t
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
106. Are you going to continue replying to legit questions with "ROFL" or answer them? n/t
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. Read #44. n/t
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. I read it
And agree that is a promise he has not kept. I was just taking issue with your original response. That is usually something you see pre-teen girls use as a response "ROFL"!!!
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. Maybe I picked the phrase up from my pre-teen granddaughters. n/t
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. Probably upset over the birth certificate thing.
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lark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
92. Not Jody, but answering for fun anyway
Promises made but not kept

1 - Be out of Afghanistan with only small residual non-combat force in 16 months - morphed to huge amount of troops staying and 19 months to get out most
2 - Bandits won't be rewarded morphed to take out any mention of no bonuses from the bill.
(It's OK to tell union workers to take less and to void their contracts but not the fat cats who caused all this mess??)

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swishyfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Sometimes voters need to chill.
April 2009 is a whole heck of a lot different than April 2008. We're 3 months in to his presidency and Mr. Obama has been handed the biggest pile of shit imaginable.

Disagreement is healthy and natural, but anger is just wasted energy.

Occam is spot on here.
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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. Here is a nifty site that shows all of Obama's promises , how many kept, broken, working on etc.
Not many in the broken promises category.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Pisces, with this link, you win today's


Oh, I can see the great fun that many will have on this site with this link! Nay-sayers, you better UP your game now!!

:rofl:
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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #43
54. THank you.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Interesting but not authoritative, e.g. Kept "No. 125: Direct military leaders to end war in Iraq"
is not correct.

As Commander in Chief he does not have to direct military leaders to end the war in Iraq, he has the authority to end the war which he has not done.

Even his plan for Iraq leaves our troops in combat settings for several years.

Nice try and a good site even though it's not credible.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #38
110. An excellent resource, thanks for posting this n/t
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is a very good place to start. I will acknowledge that you are correct.
Let's get back to just looking at what we have in front of us. I'll admit to the anger. And I'll admit I do not have any coherent thoughts on where to aim our direction. But there is history to look at. History often is future. In fact, since we still are human beings, history is just about all we have. And it is most certainly the place to look for clues.

I fall victim to looking into the future. And not looking into the past. There is a show on a small radio station out of London. They have an anarchists show every Saturday. What an eyeopener that show has been. Not only because of the accurate vision they have for who we are and where we are, but because of their broad perspective on history. The Europeans have been up against the powers a lot longer than Americans have. We've just had the advantage of being able to pick some of what we like. And still we've fallen prey to the powerful.

The people. We either exercise our rights, or we get run over. This is an escalator we're on. It doesn't stop.

We need to get our priorities straight. This is like being lost. Like an emergency. It doesn't give us the excuse to stop being logical. And anger is good for some things. But it won't bring us out of the wilderness.

PS- I'm typing this from a pile of logs in a forest. If we can pull of this technical miracle, then surely we can furnish a society with what it need in order to be healthy and happy.
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. This is only the 2nd time in my adult life that my country has had a Democratic President.
I want to be able to enjoy it. I'm thoroughly sadden by the brick throwing here.
In no way do I expect everyone to be in agreement here on all the issues but I did expect some agreement on excitement at a Democrat in high office at long last. I guess I wanted too much...
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stubtoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
74. I'm with you, azmouse. I want to enjoy it too.
I think a lot of what is going on is just disruption, and folks are buying into it.

Hoping it gets better. There are a lot of excellent DUers, maybe they'll come back.
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daleanime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. Nice post indeed,,,,,
although I think you've left out one important point-We are not the only ones angry out there. It seems like every one's rage levels have climbed the over the decades. Maybe group therapy?:hide:
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Mme. Defarge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
14. Razor-sharp, as usual!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
18. You know, I endured a lot of "anger" for supporting Senator Clinton in the primary.
It got to the point where this place sucked, because there was only one view accepted--and I'm talking about BEFORE the convention.

I support the President, now, though, and I'm going to give him more than five minutes to fix the fuckups that Bush spent eight years making.

Some people are pissed because they painted their own desires onto Obama, and they're mad that he's not simply reflecting their wishes. They should have listened to his policy speeches and not "assumed."

Like I've said, that HOPE AND CHANGE stuff was all about hoping that he'd be better than Bush, and any change was better than the Bush regime.

Take heart--this is not a huge forum, and it's way far left of and not representative of the party as a whole. Some of the people who post here are, if not trolls, "trollish." Others are just miserable in their home lives and want to make others miserable too, to make themselves feel better.

I often thought this place would be much improved by disabling the ability to hide one's profile. It's interesting how some people, supposedly "new" to the forum, are so adept at using that function and other tools provided by the website, at times. I think it's useful to know how long people have been here, even if they lie or don't bother to mention their hometown and state and so forth.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Excellent post, MADem!
I'm glad to see you are still around. :hi:
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #18
56. Hats off to you.
I can't say I would have been equally classy in supporting Hillary had she won. I'd like to think I would, but who knows?

Like it or not, Obama's the best shot we have. The Senate is run by a coaltion of Republicans and DINO's like Evan Bayh (who gets a free pass for some reason around here).

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biopowertoday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
57. the bar you set is in the ground.



............
Like I've said, that HOPE AND CHANGE stuff was all about hoping that he'd be better than Bush, and any change was better than the Bush regime.............
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Median Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
23. Its Hard To Tell For Me, I've Been More Aggressive With Ignoring Spam Bots
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 06:46 PM by Median Democrat
The interesting thing is that entire tenor of the board changed when I started ignoring relatively few disruptors who would spam negative articles about the President without comment, then bump them up with snippy little replies, again without comment.

The sad thing is that unless you start being agressive about ignoring such posters, the entire tenor of this board looks overwhelmingly angry, reactionary and obstructionist. Of course, many folks are not going to bother, and will simply be driven from the board, which is what I suspect the trolls are trying to accomplish.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
24. This is one of the most lucid posts made on DU in days. n/t
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dalaigh lllama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
25. yes, lots of anger
Lots of fear out there. I think everyone knows someone whose lost his/her job, and many are in fear of losing their own jobs.

When W was president I likened it to being in the car with a drunk driver at the wheel. Now it's like Obama's the other front seat driver whose taken over the wheel right before the drunk almost took us all over the cliff. Still a very frightening situation for all of us.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
26. I wrote some poetry jam last night that express some of what I see and feel....
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 07:49 PM by FrenchieCat
in reference to the feelings some have about this President:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8306312




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Holly_Hobby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
27. People are fixated on a "savior"
There are no saviors; not here on Earth or in the sky. Disappointment turns to anger.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. The angry discontent is flowing from those who use the "savior" label with ridicule.
Reasonable folks who were paying attention during the campaign knew full well what they were getting and are (generally) neither disappointed nor angry.
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HopeOverFear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. exactly, there ya go n/m
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Hey thanks...
And welcome to DU. :hi:
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
89. The only people claiming that he is a savior...
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 01:23 PM by TwilightZone
are those who are using it as a term of derision.
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
31. K & R!
:)
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JayMusgrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
32. Yes, personally I now have to take about 60% of the posts here with
a grain of salt.

Most people here seem to have one agenda, pot smoking, or whatever.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
87. The pot smoking is kind of a running joke. Don't worry if you
don't smoke plot, you can still be part of the club. Most of us wouldn't smoke pot if it grew in our kitchen sinks. We'd rather be DUing.
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HopeOverFear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
34. It kinda saddens me
that the communities affected by Obama's decision to oust the GM CEO feel betrayed by him. Obama is not doing this to hurt anyone, this is just a downpayment on a bigger goal. But my fear is that they don't see it that way. Emotions block clear thinking, especially when you're going through tough financial times.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
36. this thread was an attempt to address the dissension with "something we can do about it"
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
37. There's just as much demeaning and disparaging behaviour as there is anger
and I don't think it's fueled by rage, but by some kind of weird lack of self worth.

all in all, a bizarre social experiment.
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. I don't know what psychology is behind the name-calling, but I dislike it. nt
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specimenfred1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
40. It just needs a little bandage huh?
"Toxic assets" are frauds, I have a very clear idea what frauds are and so does everyone else who's been involved in finance for the last 20 years. There is no "I don't know who's a criminal", it's 100% clear who's a criminal. The problem is many people do not want to hold criminals responsible for their crimes, especially if they think they're going to get some financial reward for ignoring criminals.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #40
88. Right. The argument is very much about the fraud that the toxic assets represent.
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 12:26 PM by JDPriestly
With our money, Obama is buying the toxic assets. He does not seem to get the fact that taxpayers are 1) paying for "assets" with no worth; 2) already paid for the "assets" many times over as the Credit Default Swap fraud consisted of dividing up real assets into supposed portions, putting the portions together with portions of other real assets that had been divided up, and doing that over and over with the same portions of assets so that the same portions of assets were sold many, many times. The "toxic" assets were supposed spread risk. They are "toxic" because they did exactly that. Problem is the risk turned into a failure of epidemic proportions. Now Obama has bought the epidemic. He should have quarantined it instead of buying it and spreading it into the federal coffers. Now, all the American people and not just the taxpayers own the epidemic of bad risk, bad debt. On top of it all, facts are now emerging that suggest that one of the goals of this scheme was to help investors avoid taxes by creating tax losses. Now, the American taxpayers will be footing the bill for a tax evasion scheme. The honest taxpayers pay, pay, pay, pay, pay. And nothing is done to punish those who created the scheme or used it as a tax shelter.

I honestly don't think that Obama understands fully what he has done and what this means for the future of the American people.

The worst of it is that what Obama has done has made it more difficult to identify and bring to justice those who perpetrated this fraud.

Sorry, Occam's Razor, but this is not the time to call for everybody to just talk nice. This is the time to call Obama out. He still has time to correct his course. It isn't too late.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
45. Business as usual at DU. A lotta heat, very little light.
There's always some new outrage du jour against which we can vent.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
46. Unfortunately, the financial sector is destroying the real economy
As far as I can see, Obama prefers to prop it up instead of changing it. How in bloody hell can it be possible for financial "assets" to be "worth" several times more than our gross national product? Propping up the former at the expense of the latter is impoverishing and killing people, and that is a perfectly rational cause for anger.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #46
99. ...
!
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
47. There are many here seething in anger at the system itself and at capitalism itself
Somehow he is now not angry enough for some and does not want to dismantle the entire system. Wow. I never got the tear it all down vibe from him during the election at all. I got cautious, pragmatic, step by step, detached but involved. Emotional at times-talking about his mother and health care and the damage Bush had done to us. But Bush was the emotional "my way of the high way" one. I never wanted that at all.
I don't even agree with him all the time but do not ever get "betrayed" or angry or he is worse then Bush, he is a sell out corporatist, etc. I never get those feelings at all. One man will not overhaul an entire 200 plus years of a capitalistic greedy country built upon the survival of the fittest. Lets not kid ourselves and think our country was ever not brutal, uncaring, corrupt, and tied to wealthy interests. Its been that way since way back in the early days of the industrial revolution. We will not get socialism from Barack Obama. We will get a move toward the moderate to liberal left. That is why the Rethugs hate the man. He is going left! Krugman says its not left enough but guess what...he supports his overall ideas and budget! Wow. From this board you would think the man was a right wing Bush part 2. Fight the real enemy in America, not the people on the left but Evan Bayh and the conservadems and the Rethugs. Obama is the most progressive Prez in over 25 years plus. The entire left agrees on things overall. We can get through this or we can let ourselves get split and splinter our power and let Obama's more leftist priorities fail.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
48. What suprises me is that there's still bitterness...
among many Obama / Hillary backers. I'd have thought that by now people would have realized you can't tear down one without harming the other.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Agreed. I would have voted for her. However most anger here is coming from those who disliked both.
Those who had to "compromise" for a "corporatist".
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. I agree. I mean, I grew to dislike Sec. Clinton strongly during the primaries, but
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 10:36 PM by Occam Bandage
she's now one of my favorite administration members. I don't understand how people can still like one and hate the other. Hell, even in the primaries the only reason I disliked her was for what I perceived as going negative past the point of her viability (I've since reconsidered this somewhat). I mean, politically they're both at the same spot: smack-dab in the center of the Democratic party. You'd need a fine-tuned caliper to find enough space between them to dislike one and not the other on political grounds.
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #51
61. I grew to dislike her too
but she was a poorly managed candidate. I blame her advisers more than I do her. I think she would have been a better president than she was a candidate, but I feel Obama was the perfect choice for this time in history.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
50. I say we focus our "anger" towards getting health care reformed, high cost hurt Americans
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jmondine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
53. How dare you say that the only emotion I express is anger!
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 12:01 AM by jmondine
:sarcasm:

Seriously, while I think it's healthy to have a good vent once in a while, I do agree that as a whole we have gotten rather stuck in anger over all the crimes of Bush and of Wall Street. Not that this anger is in anyway unjustified, but it has gotten to the point where it just seems to feed upon itself. Hopefully, we will soon see a return to more objective and insightful discourse.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
55. Another observation: After I spend time on DU, I tend to feel angry.
Sometimes I'm able to let go of the anger; sometimes I can't. Maybe someone on the forum becomes the focus of my anger...or perhaps I think about my family and how they supported the Republicans for the past 30 years...and the anger just builds.

I think part of this is mob mentality. We make each other angrier, either through agreement or disagreement. DU becomes both the focal point and source of our anger.

When I stayed away from DU, my familial relationships were healthier, but I have a hard time staying away entirely. I think it's time to throw away the browser shortcut again, so I can't click on it absently and end up angry.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
58. people are losing jobs, homes, health insurance, pensions they worked their entire lives for
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 12:44 AM by flyarm
and bail outs are putting our kids in debt.. and their kids who aren't even born in debt..people are afraid of losing their jobs, malls are empty and closing early because there are no customers, people can't buy groceries, or medicines, or their kids college tution. people can't pay their car peyments or mortgages have gone sky high and they can't figure out how to make the payments..
Foreclosure signs are everywhere we turn..people's homes are worth way less than they paid for them..

and you think people here are angry??????

While billions and billions and billions of our tax dollars are going to foreign banks..and many here who are angry have spent a lifetime working for the democratic party only to see the new Democratic president put a Kissinger protege in charge of the treasury, who also worked for the CFR, both of who many of us have spent a lifetime fighting against..and you think we are angry???????

NO SHIT SHERLOCK!!


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=alqR_B9y0gbk

If Oppenheimer Gets Handout, Blame Canada: Susan Antilla


Commentary by Susan Antilla
March 30 (Bloomberg) -- With word out that the U.S. is offering generous new welfare benefits, it was only a matter of time before those opportunistic foreigners who provided Lou Dobbs with his shtick started crossing the border with their hands out.

This time, the benefits are bailout goodies for banks and other financial institutions, and the grovelers are management of a Canadian brokerage firm.

Oppenheimer Holdings Inc., based in Toronto, said in several regulatory filings this month that it wants to reincorporate in Delaware and perhaps seek federal rescue money.

Oppenheimer “is exploring becoming a U.S. corporation and a U.S. bank holding company in order to help resolve the ARS problem for our clients,” the company said in its annual letter to shareholders released last week. (Toronto’s Oppenheimer & Co. isn’t related to OppenheimerFunds Inc., a unit of Massachusetts Mutual Life Insurance Co.)

The “ARS problem,” of course, is the nasty pickle Oppenheimer has gotten itself into with customers who hold $929.6 million in auction-rate securities, the ill-fated investments that flat-lined in February 2008. The auction-rate meltdown left investors at Oppenheimer and many of its Wall Street brethren unable to liquidate positions that had been marketed as, well, pretty darned liquid, to customers who often had no clue about the product’s risks.

Foul Call

Regulators and the public cried foul, and firms including Citigroup, Merrill Lynch & Co. and UBS AG ponied up the money to make customers whole after getting strong-armed by state regulators and the Securities and Exchange Commission.

.......................................

You bet some of us who pay attention are angry.

I don't care if my tax dollars go to buying meds for children , or building bridges, and fixing roads, and helping those who need the help..and creating jobs..that is what i want my taxes to go to..it is part of being a great democracy , taking care of those less fortunate than ourselves.

I have a damn hard time justifying corporate welfare..corporate pigs who did this to our nation and cash in huge bonus's and payoffs ..for failure...when US workers are losing their jobs..and children are going to bed ,..if they still have one , hungry.

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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #58
91. Thanks, I'm with you.
I've been angry with dems for years now, for NOT standing up for the average American. They seem to have plenty of backbone when they represent corporations, but not when it comes to US.

Many on this board think that Obama is doing a great job, I do not. I am one of those who are holding on by their fingernails. I can't wait for Obama to make his mistakes, before it gets it right, and many millions of other people can't either. When you are at the bottom drowning, you certainly will get angry when you see the rich getting life boats.

I was willing to give Obama a chance, just like I gave Reid and Pelosi a chance. None of them have had the backbone to stand up for the average American. Obama bent over backwards for the wall streeters, but got a backbone when it came to the auto companies? Many, many companies depend on the car manufacturers to keep THEIR businesses open, right here in the USA. But, Obama will give the bankers billions of dollars with no accountability? Why the double standard? Oh, I guess the unions didn't give him enough money, they just worked their butts off to get him elected.........but never mind, it wasn't money, so it wasn't important.

zalinda
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #58
101. ...
!
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merkins Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #58
122. +1
There it is, thank you!
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #58
127. Well said. People who aren't angry right now are over privileged.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
59. .
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
60. It's like the bumper sticker says...
If you're not completely outraged, you haven't been paying attention.

Naturally as soon as you log on to DU and your attention is drawn to the many thing which demand outrage, you become angry.

Anger in itself is not a bad thing, it's what you do with it. Anger is nothing but a sign that something is wrong which needs attention.
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ColesCountyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
62. Bravo! It neede to be said, and you said it VERY well!
:applause:
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Roadless Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 05:08 AM
Response to Original message
63. I've noticed this as well
It's one thing to be angry. It's another to treat each other like jerks for no reason.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
64. my anger goes back to the 1960's and includes anger at you.
the american "system" has been screwed up for a century at least. anyone who starts out citing the last eight years is myopic, or restricting the debate, or clueless about the extent of the anger in the country, and here, or all the above.

there are many signs that obama is not the answser many think he is. I am angry at his embrace of colin powell, his support for the bailout, and his defense of bush in court, and not least, his attack on auto workers yesterday. politically aggressive? against ordinary americans perhaps, not against the establishment that IS the problem.

but you...arrogant self-righteous, know-better-than-anyone, dismissive, above-it-all...you really make me angry. learn to live with your little bit of disheartenedness and consider yourself lucky. throw fewer bricks yourself. the fix i have in mind...go away.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #64
70. So, if I'm reading you right, you're angry at me for not thinking Obama is anti-Americans.
You're right. I don't think Obama is aggressively against ordinary Americans. Since you do, why are you on a site that has support for Democratic leaders as its central rule?
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #64
81. And here is the PERFECT example of what OB is talking about.
Tomp, your last paragraph is nothing but hateful jibberish aimed at a random person here on DU. You've been angry since the 1960s; therefore, Occam should just shut up and go away.

I sincerely hope you're getting some counseling. No snark.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
65. It's more than a little disingenuous for Centrists to admonish us not to be angry
Centrists are getting EVERYTHING they want from this admin, and more. So of course they're elated.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #65
72. I'm not a centrist, I'm not admonishing, and I'm not claiming anyone's angrier than anyone else.
There's the brick-throwing, and there's the brick-throwing at the brick-throwers, after all.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
66. You identified the causes of our anger very well, but don't understand the criticism, particularly
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 07:35 AM by leveymg
the economics. Our anger is constructive if it leads to reconsideration and change of policy, even if that democratic process of demanding change is unsightly and annoying.

You hit your points one-two-three dead-center. Right on. But, then your analysis breaks down. First, the economic argument is not only about the cost of a bad bank and the residual value of toxic assets. It is larger than that, about what the overall process of financial and macroeconomic restructuring entails, and how to make this happen with the least possible additional pain to the middle-class. The argument among economists is essentially between the institutionalists on one side, professional banking bureaucrats like Bernanke, Geithner, on one side, who are invested in the existing financial system and view the largest existing financial institutions as the only way to run a functioning economy, and on the other side are the critical economists, Krugman and Steiglitz, who have long diagnosed the existing global financial system as fatally flawed and large institutions as parasitic and predatory. Krugman and Steiglitz want the global banks and hedge funds downsized and closely regulated - but, they have to be broken apart into units that are small and national enough so they can be directed by the U.S. government.

Obama seems to be caught in the influence of the status quo institutionalist group, the one which imposed IMF "restucturing" and "austerity" programs on third-world countries. If Mr. Obama doesn't change direction soon, the U.S. will be suffering the very same austerity programs Mr. Summers designed and implemented a decade ago.

People sense that, and they are frightened and angry. There can be no other human response.

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Mermaid7 Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #66
76. Great Post Leveymg
Well said.

I'm not angry w Obama and am very thankful he is in office, but I am 'frightened' after reading Steiglitz in particular that Geithner's plan is absolutely the wrong way to go. It would allow banks drive up the price on the toxic assets and get them off their books for only 15%.

I'm w Steiglitz on instead, renegotiating mortgages, extending the term in order to bring down the payment. This would not only allow people to stay in their homes, but would provide income back to the banks. This would improve the whole housing crisis, the root of the problem and improve the real estate market. I think they need to put a moratorium on foreclosures for at least a year, particularly for those who have lost their jobs, until the economy turns around and people can get back to work. What good are these empty houses doing anyone anyhow, when people are living out on the streets?

I'm 'angry' because I read yesterday, saw a picture of a house, that was foreclosed on, then abandoned by the bank,left to rot and that city now has to pay from our tax dollars to have it torn down.
Why couldn't have the person who owned just have stayed there, taken care of it and be given a grace period of a year, and had that year tacked on to the end of the mortgage.

This bank bailout of toxic assets, just doesn't make sense to me, and I'm pretty sure, we have only one chance to get this right, or it's all going to go down the shitter.


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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #76
84. Steiglitz's idea makes sense to me. But, Bernanke made his career with a paper about "inefficient"
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 11:27 AM by leveymg
markets for defaults and foreclosures during the Great Depression, and what he saw as the Fed's role in improving market information about the value of foreclosed properties. In young Bernanke's view, if the Fed had provided better data about defaulted assets following the '29 crash, the markets would have cleared themselves up, avoiding the collapse of the financial industry in 1932-33.

I don't know if that still reflects Bernanke's thinking, but it gives us insight into where he's coming from. It's interesting that the current Fed Chairman didn't seem to have embraced the idea of foreclosure mortatorium as a preferred solution to the deepening crisis, and focused instead on making the bankruptcy and foreclosure process more efficient. Also, interesting that Bernanke's 1983 paper cites Steiglitz's pioneering work about imperfect information in market disorders. Steiglitz, at least, certainly built on that basic understanding that markets are imperfect and that participants are not equally informed. Please, see: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/2/24/95327/3706
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #76
85. Allow me to welcome you to DU, Mermaid 7
Thanks for your kind note.
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Mermaid7 Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #85
93. Leveymg
Thank you for the warm welcome.

I did read the link you provided to DailyKos and it's obvious to me, that you are very well read and also write very well. That was a really good article. I didn't know much about Bernacke and his ecomonic philosophy.

I on the otherhand have not read much on ecomomics at all until just recently. It does seen although that you and I are on the same wave length. Being consumed w how much information banks have in order to place the correct value on foreclosed assets and how to foreclose more efficiently rather than being concerned about how to stem the foreclosure crisis, does seem really heartless.

It seems like it all about the banks and not the individuals that comprise this country.

It doesn't take a genius to see how foreclosure are hurting everyone. Even someone as unknowledgable as myself can see that. So it stands to reason, that this is what 'they' should be working on to avoid.


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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #66
102. ...
!
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Smith_3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
67. Yeah, I agree. I'm very glad we have someone in the WH who is not as pissed as me. nt
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Christa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
68. K & Highly recommended
I wish I could give you 10 recs for this.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
75. You said it far better than I could.
You're absolutely, positively right. That might very well be the best post ever on this site.
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
77. The conservatives are stepping up their attacks
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 10:37 AM by Turbineguy
and waging what is at this point a cold civil war.

The economy is on life-support and the Obama Administration is treating symptoms and trying to stabilize the patient. The conservatives are trying to kill the patient because being king of a shitpile is still being king. The conservatives have to make sure Obama fails. It's no longer "I hope he fails".
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #77
86. And as a PS:
Prosecuting the Bush administration is part of curing the disease and we are not there yet.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #86
103. ...
!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
78. Well said. That's why I pretty much avoid these forums.
Hopefully things will calm down soon...
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
79. Too much negative energy flowing worldwide...
...there is negative energy being distributed worldwide, people are feeling angry, impatient, anxious and they don't even know
why. Something positive has to happen to turn our frustrations into something positive - WORLDWIDE!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. We're in control of our own energy.
Waiting for some outside force to make people stop focusing on what's wrong and start working for what's right is a recipe for failure.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. You've got that right
The problem being, too many people don't understand their power to control their own perspective. It's all about what you choose to give your energy to, and what you give time in your mind.

"His mind is not for rent, to any God or government... " Rush - Tom Sawyer

That said, I'm limiting my InterTube time these days, precisely for this reason.

On perspective:

The Guest-House

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.

A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they're a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture.

Still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice -
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.

Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.

-- Mathnawi V, 3644-46, 3676-80, 3693-95
Coleman Barks
"The Essential Rumi"
Castle Books, 1997
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #79
121. I think that's what I meant?
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
83. A system that fails so many of us so thoroughly guarantees it. n/t
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
90. Sorry, but if you aren't angry with the Obama administration & Congress then you aren't
paying attention.

People around here need to wake up and smell the corruption.

Because make no mistake, Obama is a corporatist, not a liberal, and he & Congress are serving their corporate masters well.

To post a thread like this is bullshit because it only serves to tell people that their anger isn't justified or that they should just forget about it.

People are out of work, losing their homes, living in tents and the fat cats on Wall Street who are responsible for this god damn mess are getting paid millions of OUR money as bonuses and to pay off their debts.

Meanwhile, the auto industry is being kicked to the curb by Obama which means that the few remaining good paying union jobs are close to becoming extinct.


Sorry to break it to ya, but

Now is the time to be angry.

Now is the time for us to get off our asses and tell those fuckers in Washington DC that enough is enough.

We need to be like the French because there is NO way in hell the French would allow their elected officials-who work for them mind you-to pull this kind of crap!

It blows my mind that people around here are justifying all this crap just because some guy got elected to office with a fake "D" after his name! :wtf:

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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #90
100. earth mom - your view matches that of we who knew we were getting a corporatist yet still voted
for him because, if we were subjected to any more of the rethugs' rule, this nation would have been totally destroyed.

So many Dems, especially the younger ones, have only lived under repuke (and Clinton DLC) rule for their entire lives. That is all they know. So, when a "Democrat" was put in a position (by the total fuck-up of GWB) to take the WH, they jumped at the chance to be on the winning side. This is NOT a goddamned football game. More is at stake than bragging rights at the local bar for the next four years. But all that seems to matter to those having wet dreams at having "their guy" in charge is that a D is in office.

Thus, no criticism is allowed and those that articulate a desire for a liberal future are told that we are just like the reigh-wingers, tearing down the President for our own petty, juvenile wants ("where's my pony").

There is very little difference between the sell-out to Wall Street & the selling-out of Detroit and the GOP's trickle-down economics. Take care of the financial elite first and hope/pretend that the benefits will slide down to workers sometime in the future.

If we libs wait until the policies are set and irreversible to voice our objections, we will remain voiceless to the new administration. Maybe that is the desire of those touting the "shut-up and don't rock the boat" meme.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #90
104. ...
!
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FailureToCommunicate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
94. Made me remember Oddball: "There you go with the negative waves, man." link:
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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
95. This is the second thread in as many days to make it to the Greatest Page on this topic
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 01:35 PM by MessiahRp
And in both of them I think Obama's most loyal supporters are "disheartened" by real Representative Democracy in action. Our founding fathers didn't ask us to blindly follow or support our Presidents no matter how much we disagreed with policy and just because you saw the other side do that for Bush doesn't mean you should cast that expectation onto our side as well.

Obama may not have broken all that many promises specifically but he did promise change and everyone who is concerned about him continuing illegal wiretapping or keeping far too many troops in Iraq indefinitely, or inserting the same DLC corporatists that helped fuck up the economy before into treasury positions... there are legitimate reasons to ask where the change is and there are gripes there.

We spent the last 8 years having our faces rubbed in shit by the Right Wing and Bush. Of course the left wing, who worked as hard or harder than any centrists did for Obama's election, would like to be thrown a bone once in awhile. An almost completely DLC/Republican cabinet was not throwing that bone, nor has many of Obama's policies thusfar.

Obama seems to think he owes the Republicans who voted for him in much, much smaller numbers than Liberals did, everything while he owes us nothing.

Yes I like that he's trying to be somewhat proactive about the environment (although there feels like serious lobbyist taint to his continual Clean Coal championing)... Yes I like that he closed down Gitmo, although nobody knows what he's actually going to do with those prisoners. Yes I like that he appointed an AG that was clear that torture is not legal nor is it tolerated... but the same AG also has continued medical marijuana raids which flies in the face of Obama's campaign promises.

And health care is going to be a disaster. What Obama's hardest supporters claim is that we have to basically take baby steps and we can't get to Single Payer overnight... so giving the entire insurance deal away to HMOs is supposed a good "first step". To which I call bullshit because the reality is that once this fails, and it most definitely will, the GOP and RW Media will seize on this as proving "socialized health care" does not work and can never work and the meme will carry for decades.... We will NEVER get the right health care if we push for the wrong health care first.

See Democrats are supposed to be better than their ignorant Republican brethern specifically BECAUSE there is dissent amongst the ranks. We're not all sheep or lemmings. We question the authority of leadership EVEN IF IT'S OUR LEADER...

And this is a GOOD thing. This is what Representative Democracy is supposed to be about.

Rp
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. And your post is an intelligent, articulate critique
I think what upsets a lot of people is the knee-jerk profane posts that often lack substance or information. There has been too much anger for the sake of anger and not enough legitimate debate.
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Mermaid7 Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. Spot On MessiahRp
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 01:44 PM by Mermaid7
My sentiments exactly on every one of the points you made here. Especially on the healthcare.

Paying attention, speaking up, not being a lemming or a good soldier is being democratic!!!!
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #95
105. ...
!
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PLR_Writer Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
98. I make the choice to be positive.
I have been visiting ever since Democratic Underground was started and have found much comfort in many of the members words.

We got the Prez we wanted and things are steamrolling along even if our everyday lives are still the same. For me it is 15 months of being unemployed and penniless. I stay positive though, because fear and negativity just seems to stall progress.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
111. Your analysis of how Obama is missing the point is not true
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 03:00 PM by truedelphi
Not once in your article do you talk about the problem of derivatives. If derivatives were not part of the problem, I could live with what President Obama is doing. But since they are...

Obama's economic team keeps telling the American people that AIG must be bailed out no matter what.

AIG claims that it held a deficit of about 2.8 trillion dollars. Now the executives there say they have lessened that amount to the tune that they are only in the hole 1.7 trillion.

But since AIG has done nothing but lie, how do we know that it true? Have you not noticed, Occam, that we don't bother doing any type of audit of AIG - we just shovel money into it. Why is that? What is the Geithner crowd afraid of finding should they audit the company?

What if AIG is responsible for most of the 50 Trillion (Very conservative figure) of the counterparty-agreement/derivatives that are claimed by economists to be still outstanding. That fifty trillion dollar amount imperils the world's economy. Should we keep shovelling in 1 trillion dollars at a time, with each seven hundred billion resulting in an inflationary mark of about $ 524 per person, we are in big trouble. One economist I talked to stated in January that his big hope was that the counterparties would settle for pennies on the dollar. We ahve since heard from Goldman SaCHS THAT THEY WANT THEIR FULL 100 PENNIES ON THE DOLLAR. WHERE DO YOU PROPOSE WE GET THE 50 TO 700 TRILLION BUCKS?

Our economy only produces about 14 trillion a year. SO the only way we can solve this, with Obama's equation that the derivatives have to be made good, is to WHAT?

With the 4.1 trillion already spent, a household of four needs to earn an extra $ 12K just to stay even over the next fifteen months. Is your household able to do that?
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
112. I can be very specific about my anger
I'm angry that we're doubling down in Afghanistan when there is no good reason for us to be there.

But what really gets my goat is that the Obama administration, through Turbo Timmy of the Treasury, is enabling the theft of ADDITIONAL trillions of my money and yours, and they do it in broad daylight depending on us to be too stupid to understand what's going on.

I'm angry about being lied to and stolen from. There's nothing 'diffuse' about it.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
113. May I make it simple - There was never enough $ for healthcare or SS or welfare, but the banks get
trillions.

People are angry.

They haven't started up with the guillotine, like they did in the French revolution.

I think everyone is fairly calm and collected, actually.

Civil discussion, and positive solutions.

Out of Iraq, Afghanistan, decrease military expenditures, decrim drugs, make private prisons illegal, put people who tortured innocent people in jail... etc.

PASS HR 676!!!

Single payer health care.

Let's hear Obama talking about passing that bill and you will hear people being very excited and happy!!!!

Thanks!
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
114. It's been that way since I joined.
All the serious forums are empty or virtually so. GD and GD-P are literally the collective id boiling over. But I like a good train wreck so I hang around because there is a lot of good insight hidden by all the madness (sometimes even within it).
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
117. That's one reason why I posted this in the first place
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
118. Yes, just look at the virulent hatred of Krugman
who is saying pretty much the same sort of thing he was saying a year ago, when everyone just loooooved him, but before DU turned into an Obama fan club site, precluding any rational discussion of policies.
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RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
119. They are well within their patriotic duty!
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 04:43 PM by RedCloud
Some have forgotten what was said so many moons ago by those long haired revolutionary dissidents who rose up angrily against Imperialist England.

If you knew we had become yet another Empire squelching the rights of foreigners to even have their own rain forests the way they see fit, believe me you will become revolutionary. You will want blows against the Empire.

When the military industrial complex, the prison industrial complex and the corporate school complex come a'crashing down you will not find me shedding a single tear of dismay, rather tears of joy that a long time should have been shed.

I recall the Reverend Jackson picking up a torch from the slain hands of Martin Luther King and giving his courageous speech "I may be black, but I am SOMEBODY!"

The somebodies are just now finding themselves and have every right to have their first moments in the sun. Of course there will be anger along the way. But it will make us stronger in the long run.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
120. Justified anger should be expressed..
.. but not without being followed by
determined, consistent, and thoughtful
action.

What's missing in America is the action
that will make change happen and will
end the anger and frustration.
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Mermaid7 Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #120
124. Exactly!
Succinctly said.

It's not that we should not express our anger when it's well founded, but that we should be able to state it in reasonable, explainable terms.

Thank you so much for your post!

We need more people like you.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
123. Beautifully written and expressed. Unfortunately, probably a bit too cerebral and enlightened
a discourse for the majority of people who seem to be posting obscenities here lately.

But thank you. Wish I'd seen it in time to recommend it !
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
125. Don't you realize we're screwed and there are no answers?
I got warned for writing what the admin's thought were violent posts. They were simply putting in words what many posters here have been edging towards but won't outright say. People here realize that no politician, no political position, nothing we mortals can do will change anything.

I know people who don't do anything with computers, don't know how to post on a web site, or the rest of that, and they are even more angry. And I'm not even talking about the people listening to conservative radio, the Limbaugh crowd, who are encouraged to get guns and do something. I'm talking about people whose retirements are wiped out, whose jobs are threatened, who have absolutely no hope left. And none of this peace and justice and holding hands stuff means anything when you're facing real problems with no solutions. Or to rewrite that guy who didn't understand it at all and didn't duck the bullet...


You may call me a psycho

But I'm not the only one

I know there will be riots

Kum-Bi-Yas are just dumb.

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Baikonour Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
126. There isn't anger, but there sure is a fuck ton of hyberbole.
Edited on Wed Apr-01-09 01:10 AM by Baikonour
See what I did there?

But seriously, all these anti-anti-Obama threads are reactionary, hyperbolic nonsense. Some of you are acting like the site is under attack. Get a grip. If people don't like Geitner's plan and feel anger as a result, let them speak. Last I checked, this IS a forum.

fo·rum (fôr'əm, fōr'-) n.
pl. fo·rums also fo·ra

1. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
2. A public meeting place for open discussion.
3. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.

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Sunnyshine Donating Member (698 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #126
128. +1 Democrats embrace individuality and seek open discussions.
Republicans run from both of these freedoms, and use fuck tons of hyperbole to try to extinguish them.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
129. this trivializes what people are saying
Edited on Wed Apr-01-09 02:25 PM by Two Americas
I don't post in anger, nor in "surprise." Speculating about the emotional state of people is a way to distract others from their message. "Oh they are just angry." Often I see critics accused of being "addicted to anger," and then we have the infamous and malicious "poutrage" charge.

I am not angry about Bush screwing up the country. That is what the right wing does. May as well be angry at the rain when your roof leaks. If anything, we should be angry at the Democrats for their weak and vacillating opposition, their caving and their compromising.

The public is angry about Wall Street, yes. I am not - I didn't expect anything else from Wall Street.

I don't care whether or not Obama "does anger." I don't even know what that means.

The battles here are not merely a matter of angry brick throwing. There are deep and profound differences between the two major groups here, and they are not merely a matter of people indulging personal emotions but rather involve principles and ideals and important disagreements.

I reject your claim that criticisms of the administration's economic plans are all to be dismissed out of hand because they are "purely directed at expressing anger."

Under the guise of peacemaking you are attempting to dismiss and discredit those who do not agree with you. If anything, that is what frustrates and angers people here.



...
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