Would You Rather Have Obama Bow out of Respect for the Saudi King... OR THIS...

[berni_mccoy]

Note: 1st one photoshopped but others are real.

[jody]

1. I see no difference. n/t

[berni_mccoy]

4. Then you are blind.

[jody]

18. I don't think so. I've spent considerable time in the ME and I stand by my opinion. n/t

[Ikonoklast]

25. I've spent time in Spain.

Doesn't make me a Flamenco Dancer.

[jody]

27. You might have gone to school but that may not have made you informed. n/d

[Ikonoklast]

28. And you are attempting an argument from authority.

I reject your premise.

[jody]

29. Whatever, have a nice day and goodbye. n/t

[Ikonoklast]

30. Make sure to take your agenda with you.

Kthnxbai.

[Political Heretic]

52. Oh. My. God. How many times do I have to tell people this for CHRIST SAKE

Okay let's go through this again.....

Arguments from authority are not logical fallacies.

Appeals to authority are not logical fallacies.

Arguments from or appeals to ILLEGITIMATE authority are logical fallacies.


So when someone says, I've lived and worked in the ME and I think that makes me more qualified to speak on culture than someone who has not - that's not a logical fallacy. It's no more a logical fallacy than someone saying "I happen to be a brain surgeon and that is why you should give credence to my opinion on brain surgery."

On the OTHER hand, if I say "here's my opinion on the ME and its more informed than yours because I did stay at a holiday inn last night" - that's an illegitimate claim of authority. Or if I said, "here's my opinion on the ME and you know, my good friend William Shatner agrees with me" - that would be an illegitimate appeal to authority, unless Bill Shatner is some expert on the ME and I don't know about it. :)

[Ikonoklast]

53. However, I never stated that it was a fallacy.

I understand that an appeal, or an argument from authority can be legitimate.

When a neurosurgeon gives you his opinion about why you are having seizures, that is a legitimate argument from authority.

What I said was that I rejected his premise.

I know people that lived in other cultures for a great many years and knew or learned *nothing* about them, or still had flawed conceptions of local customs.

But, thanks for the lecture.

[Political Heretic]

54. You gave "argument from authority" as your reason for rejecting the premise

Experience is a legitimate claim to knowledge.

You did it, everyone sees it, just own up to it like a grown up and move on.

You can decide that you don't want to accept the person's arguments, but rejecting it on the grounds that it is an "argument from authority" is inappropriate.

[cliffordu]

31. That's not what I heard....

[Ikonoklast]

33. Produce the video or clam up.

I thought I got all the copies, dammit.




It wasn't pretty. Trust me on this one.

:scared:

[cliffordu]

34. I know how that goes....

I tried a tango once and the collateral damage was breathtaking....

[mkultra]

10. well ,, one is wierd and the other is protocol.

[jody]

20. Could be that both are weirdly protocol. n/t

[mkultra]

23. well I dont really think kissing is protocol but im not sure

If the royal initiates, then it is protocol. Bowing is the standard formal greeting. Kissing is more personal.

[MADem]

26. That kissing shit is not necessarily protocol. It is reserved for times

when one wants to make a point (like when the CP kissed Ahmadinejad and he can't fucking stand the guy) or for close friends.

The Saudi royal family is very sophisticated. They're not going to play kissy-face with someone whose cultural background doesn't go for that stuff. I don't recall any one of them ever kissing Bill Clinton.

[lunatica]

2. That was not a bow. Everyone was looking at something on the floor and

Obama was bending to pick it up.

And to be fair, the top photo of Bush kissing the Saudi Prince is photoshopped

[berni_mccoy]

8. Are you sure?

[Lars39]

13. Angle of the heads...they're going in for a cheek kiss.

[berni_mccoy]

14. I'd still rather have a Bow.

[lunatica]

21. I'm more sure of you being a fool

[rcrush]

3. What difference does it make?

They still own us in the end.

[liberalmuse]

5. I don't bloody care, though you make a good point, LOL.

Really! This is silly. God how I hate the US press. The fact that they cater to right wing lunacy time and time again pretty much exposes them for the shameless, vacuous shills they are.

[berni_mccoy]

9. The RW Nuts are who my OP is actually addressed to... Them and a few LW nuts as well.

[liberalmuse]

15. You're right....

There are definitely nuts on both sides. "Controversies" like this make my head want to explode in full force.

[tularetom]

6. I guess if we want to keep driving our cars he has to do something

So to me a bow is far less offensive than holding hands or swapping spit with the guy.

[polichick]

7. Oh yuck - were tongues involved there??

[Lars39]

11. One on the top was photoshopped, iirc.

[berni_mccoy]

12. See response #8 above

[masuki bance]

16. There is a real pic of them kissing somewhere, but that is

the worst photoshop attempt I have seen in quite a while.

[berni_mccoy]

17. Is it a FACT that Obama Bowed or is that an image out of context?

that's part of my point.

[masuki bance]

19. What are you saying? That it is cool that he bowed or

that he didn't really bow and the photos of him doing so are photoshops?

[itsrobert]

22. How about NEITHER

OKAY?

[pnwmom]

45. Yeah, really. I'm hoping this wasn't a bow, though.

Just a misinterpreted picture.

[MADem]

24. I would rather have him shake hands with the King and say how do you do.

You know, like adults who don't know each other usually do.

What a bizarre choice--bow and scrape, or kiss?

Please. Americans do not bow to kings. Or curtsy to Queens.

[itsrobert]

35. I'm with you

Fuck the royals.

[Cass]

36. My thoughts exactly. And if bowing is a sign of respect why didn't the Saudi King bow

in return to President Obama? They are both heads of state. Why should only one of them be expected to be respectful of the other's culture?

[PearliePoo2]

37. What Cass said!

:thumbsup:

[hileeopnyn8d]

39. it's called a salaam

It's not a bow. It's a greeting. The person approaching is the one who initiates the greeting.

<i>salaam -
A respectful ceremonial greeting performed especially in Islamic countries.</i>

Salaam means peace, btw.

[masuki bance]

44. He greeted other people from Muslim countries and he did

not do that with them.

[PearliePoo2]

40. Righto...... Is shaking hands not an option for Saudi kings?

Showing respect and bowing to a Saudi head...what? Who would have respect for the king of a country that shows such "respect" for women?
BTW...my niece was a mechanic for Boeing. The Saudis would not allow a woman to work or set foot on the airplane being built for them. So much for respect. Bow to that? NOT.

[MADem]

42. You never "bow" to foreign royalty. It's not done. You shake hands.

It's totally an option to shake hands. It's what Bill Clinton did. It's what Anthony Zinni did. It's what Madeleine Albright did. It's what Condi Rice did. (Women who are emissaries or world leaders are treated as "honorary men"--ask Margaret Thatcher!).

You stick out your paw, and you shake their hand. Bing, bam, boom. Done.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. whats the difference? you have to honor leaders of other sovereign nations

whether by bowing or kissing, whats the diff?

[masuki bance]

38. What is this 'have to" BS?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. diplomacy. the fact that when leaders meet courtesy is required? so we are not obnoxious...

i could go on...

[masuki bance]

43. We don't have to bow or kiss any leaders.

I don't see us bowing and scraping to the Queen. A handshake is just fine.

[pnwmom]

47. Don't you remember when Dems rightfully criticized Nancy Reagan

for curtsying to the Queen?

Curtsying and deep bowing (as opposed to a head nod) are reserved for the subjects of a monarch, not for other heads of state.

[pnwmom]

46. The King wasn't bowing to Obama.

Why didn't he "have to"?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

49. different cultures. different denominations etc. i dont understand why people would be outraged

over this. are you guys not tired of the ugly american image? in which americans never take into account cultural difference and just assume their way (handshakes) is the universal right way

[uppityperson]

48. Homophobia much? What's wrong with holding hands, cheek kissing? eom

[Forkboy]

55. You have to really stretch to reach that conclusion from the OP.

The point, that you really, really...and I mean REALLY, seemed to have missed, is that some people are complaining about Obama's bow to a head of state, but don't seem to mind Bush kissing a head of state. It's not the kiss or holding hands that's wrong, it's hypocrisy of complaining about one and not being upset over the other. Neither is wrong, so why are some only upset about one of them?

[uppityperson]

57. In which case, I will take my outrage elsewhere.

I was reacting to previous statements about "omg, 2 dudes kissing", not just bush and head of state.

To the next point, I saw lots of DUers upset about bush being so close to Arabic head of state, freepers though just luvs to bash Pres Obama.

FWIW, I really don't care about either. Now, let's talk about those 25 dvds though.... :sarcasm:

[ShortnFiery]

50. Neither. 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 came from ...? "Survey Says" = Saudi Arabia. nt

[fuggbush21]

51. One is a sign of subservience, the other a sign of equals.

Guess which is which?

Now I know I'm gonna get alerted all to hell for "defending" President Bush here, but that picture of him kissing the Arab King was not a mouth to mouth kiss. That picture was taken while they where in the middle of a ritual cheek to cheek kiss, then used by people who hated him to distort what was really happening. The holding hands with the King is a sign of respect as an EQUAL in Arab culture. Now, bowing to the King is a sing of subservience, plain and simple. In no culture do you do a full body bow like that to equals. When you do that, you are acknowledging their superiority.

Now don't get me wrong, I have no love for President Bush, but there are plenty of things to go after him on then distorting the truth like this. Read this story from Newsweek. It seems that the President hasn't even filled his Protocal office yet, or has made use of the Secretary of States office, which would easily explain these "gaffes" of his.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/191421

[Forkboy]

56. After reading some of your other posts, you're right...a bunch of us will alert on you.

In no culture do you do a full body bow like that to equals. When you do that, you are acknowledging their superiority.

Bowing in East Asia

Bows are the traditional greeting in East Asia, more so in Korea and Japan than anywhere else. However, bowing is not reserved only for greetings. Bowing is a gesture of respect. Different bows are used for apologies and gratitude, to express different emotions, humility, sincerity, remorse, or deference, and in various traditional arts and religious ceremonies.
--
Bows of apology and thanks

Bows are a required and expected part of any apology or expression of thanks in Japan and Korea, and only parts of China.
--
Bows of greeting

Bows are commonly used in greeting, both when meeting and when parting. Bows almost automatically accompany the greeting phrases, but generally are no longer used among the immediate family unless addressing a family member after or in anticipation of a long absence or separation.
--
Christian liturgy

In Christian liturgy, bowing is a sign of respect or deference.
--

Judaism

In the Jewish setting, bowing, similar to in Christianity, is a sign of respect, and is done at certain points in Jewish services.

Some bows within the current liturgy are simple bows from the waist.