Arrrrggghhh.... Pirates holding US ship Captain.

[cwcwmack]

SOS Hillary calls for a worldwide push to eliminate Piracy...

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/08/ship.hijacked/index.html

[Zodiak]

1. Wow...this is not a good situation at all.

Pretty far out from the coast and the pirates are not honoring negotiations any more.

I am afraid that this incident represents an escalation of the situation. Does anyone know what group these pirates belong to? Are they organized criminals, terrorists, or disgruntled fisherman? Somali pirates have all three groups in their ranks, and the outcome of situations like this greatly depends on which group we are dealing with.

[cwcwmack]

2. yup...

they said a US destroyer will be there pronto.

[walldude]

3. There are only 2 possible outcomes here

Kill all the pirates, or admit that we have been fucking them (the Somali's) over, and stop dumping our toxic waste onto their shores . That would put us in a position to negotiate in good faith. From the looks of DU the kill em' all method is preferred.

[bbinacan]

4. What toxic waste are you talking about?

[auburnblu]

10. High seas adventurers

Oh sure greedy people will refer to them as "pirates", but in reality they are high seas adventurers. Their goal is a noble one. Making sure wealth is distributed to all citizens of Somalia. Only a weak minded greedy person would think the high seas adventurers weren't planning on immediately distributing their found cargo to all of the citizens of Somalia.

Of course there is toxic waste dumping too, its a U.S. ship.

[jberryhill]

14. High Seas Adventurers?

Are you looking for some sort of euphemism award?

[auburnblu]

18. Just a little sarcasm

There will be idiots that view the pirates as modern day versions of Robin Hood. So calling them high sea adventures helps provide a name for those dumb enough to believe the pirates are doing this for anything but greed.

[jberryhill]

22. Color me totally punk'd

I am Jack's sense of embarrassment.

[bbinacan]

17. Can you provide

details on the toxic waste?

[auburnblu]

20. Ask walldude

My post was sarcastic. I think he is wanting to romanticize the pirates and their actions.

[Mike Daniels]

37. Delete

Responded before I saw that poster was not insane.

[Lisa0825]

33. Background info in this article....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/you-are-being-lied-to-abo_b_155147.html

[auburnblu]

39. See High Seas Adventurers

Unbelievable, because the thieves agreed to split the loot evenly among themselvers they are noble. The author of this article should be parachited into Somalia. They would have a chane to say "I'm enlightened" maybe three times. What nonsense.

[Mike Daniels]

47. I'll point out one area where the article's full of shit.

The myth that pirates treated slaves as equals. More often than not, if they captured a slave ship they marooned the slaves where they were generally recaptured, sold the slaves for profit or in a few cases burned the slaves alive when discarding one of their ships for a faster captured ship.

Pirates on the whole were professional sailors who needed every person on the ship to be able to pull their weight. Slaves, who had very little nautical experience, were seen as a a hinderance as they weren't much good for anything other than hauling supplies and practically worthless when it came to fighting actions. There's no way most pirate crews would have considered sharing profits equally with someone who provided very little to the running of the ship.

As always there are exceptions but they're pretty rare in this particular case.

Of course, pirates really weren't about freedom anyway. You only need to read accounts of people who refused to join their crew being massacred and women being raped to know that the reality of piracy was very, very far from the utopian ideal some people like to believe.

[bbinacan]

51. That is an idiotic article, n/t

[Lisa0825]

52. So much for liberals being open-minded and concerned about injustices.

I don't excuse their actions. But I think it is important to know how this situation was created, and to take that into account when looking for a solution.

To all of you who don't give a rat's ass and just think we should kill 'em all, I hope you enjoy your personal tours of the Bush library.

[Mike Daniels]

54. If you're not excusing their actions then why did you post an article full of hippy dippy

BS, re: piracy being about equality and democracy?

Regardless of the original motives of the modern day practioners they've merged into the very definition of a pirate which comes down to "high seas robbery".

Yes, life on a pirate ship was democratic in that people had a say in who was captain, where they went, etc. However, day to day quality of life even during the "golden" age wasn't much different from life in the Navy...crappy living conditions, insufficient food, disease and the constant threat of sudden death due to nature or battle.

Even with that, democracy ended with the pirates on board. While there were some pirates who had some sense of restraint after a battle (interesting enough there's no documented record of Blackbeard killing anyone outside of battle) a majority of pirates were sociopaths and criminals who reveled in creating as much misery as possible. Defeated sailors of value were pressed into service or killed upon refusing to join the pirate crew. Woman were raped and killed and in some cases prisoners were locked under decks and left to drown after their ship was hulled.

Piracy negatively affected the economic life of more people than it helped. Goods captured at sea weren't distributed in a Robin Hoodesque fashion to the impoverished but sold to traders who then sold the goods to other merchants who sold them to the well-off residents of the island communities that served as pirate bases. As I already stated, pirates were more likely to sell slaves (Jean Lafitte of the Battle of New Orleans fame dipped his wick in the slave trade for one) than free them. Finally, piracy had such a negative effect on trade that in most mainland ports people of all stripes (including commoners) turned out in droves to cheer as pirates were carted off to the tideline to be executed. If you do even a cursory glance at the history of those individuals who people consider to be the major players of piracy you will not find a single case where a pirate was spirited off to safety by the crowd.

I won't deny that the Somalian pirates may have started off fighting against what they considered economic and ecological rape of their economy. However, in moving to the open seas and attacking ships that have nothing to do with their original complaints and they have become no better than the pirates of old down to the limited economic benefit they offer to the overall population.

I'm not saying kill them all but as the son of a merchant officer I don't salute them either.

[Democracyinkind]

56. You are missing her point. She's trying to say that there are systemic causes for piracy

..like there are systemic causes for terrorism. That's why we didn't win the war on terror. War on terror, war on piracy - same thing, we are not talking about a tight-knitted devoted enemy, rather about a systemic reaction to the somali collapse.

I don't think she wants us to have sympathy with criminals. I think she wants us to understand that we are facing a "kill them all not viable" problem here, just like with the war on terror.

I'm not fond of the article myself but we should be open about different perspectives on the problem.
We should distinguish mafia-like pro pirates and the desperate ones.
A thing that is very hard to do because separating them in the Somali case takes allot of background knowledge that can't be gathered thru MSM. Personally I don't know by whom (what type of pirate) this present crisis was instigated. It's looking more and more like a gang thing, since the fisher pirates are raiders, not hostage takers.

In the case of the mafia-pirates, the organized ones, they will never stop their games until there is a real government in Mogadishu with the power to deter them. We can't do it from afar, and we sure as hell don't wanna be doing that from their grounds - we've had enough disasters the last 8 years.

[masuki bance]

5. They are attacking us because we dump toxic waste on them?

[kestrel91316]

6. I always thought they were attacking ships for PROFIT. IOW, they

are, like most RWers, greedy assholes who will stop at nothing to get something for nothing.

[auburnblu]

11. You have it in reverse

The ships are the ones owned by greedy persons. Surely the high seas adventurers, sadly referred to as pirates, are not greedy.

[backscatter712]

8. You can't kill all the pirates...

Then the world will end!

Yes, I have been touched by His Noodly Appendage...

[jberryhill]

15. Oh.... so they are like Greenpeace or Sea Shepherd?

Holding hostages for ransom is now environmental activism?

I'll make a note of that.

[auburnblu]

19. They are simply charging a fee

The high seas adventurers decide to visit ships and of course they charge a fee for this.

[jberryhill]

21. ROFL....

I want your dictionary.

Car-Jacking: A service offering by a volunteer public chauffeur.

Embezzler: An employee who courteously spares the employer the chore of writing paychecks.

Kidnapper: An advocate of family values, and the value of family members.

[auburnblu]

23. Those are great

Sad thing is there a few who may actually think that way.

[auburnblu]

28. Camping experience

I think I saw where Italy's leader suggested that those displaced by the earthquakes should treat it as a "camping experience". Sadly there are idiots that will say stupid things like that.

[Milspec]

106. Oh my God!!

that was funny! :rofl:

[auburnblu]

107. Its really funny because

Someone may actually say crazy stuff like that.

[Democracyinkind]

57. We're trying to differentiate the hostage takers from the raiders. It seems that

they have different origins. They're still both criminal, and both would and will be punished in the same way by us, but methinks a court would be interested in their different stories.
In fact, if there ever would have been a real trial, we might have known about Merca-type incidents long before practically the whole coast of Somalia took to piracy, and we could have done something about it.
In fact, if they had started piracy in 1992, we would have sent ships just like now, and there wouldn't have been any "dark period" in which Unmarked freighters could drop the world's toxic waste there.
Of course, if they never would have taken up piracy, we might have learned about their struggle with illegal dumpings and the aggressive fishing of the big powers (china) anyways... But I don't think we would be discussing this here in that case.

[auburnblu]

63. Not every criminal thinks with noble intentions

I knew an "I'm enlightened" poster would come to the aid of the high seas adventurers and craft a rationale as to why they are doing this for noble reasons.

Believe it or not, the ships do not come with signs on the side saying what the cargo is. Guess what if the ship has valuable cargo, the pirates steal that. If it is a humanitarian ship the pirates realize, nothing of value to steal, we want something, let's take hostages and get a ransom. Not all kidnappings are done for noble reasons no matter what your "enlightened" view may be.

[Democracyinkind]

66. That's my point. It seems to me that the people who take hostages are not the same

as the raiders. Although this specific incident seems to be a case of spontaneous hostage-taking, this mode of operation does not seem to be the norm. In the last years it was very clear to distinguish mafia-like ops who were out for ransom and the plain desperate raiders, who lacked the sophistication and the intent to take hostages and get the ransom home. I think other incidents this year have shown that just taking out a dingy and taking hostages in this ad hoc fashion is not profitable - only if you have an organization behind you which can independently collect the ransom. Lacking that, you're likely to be one of those chaps drowning with the booty-ransom in hand, something that has happened several times to raiders gone hostage-takers on scene.

Isn't it helpful to know if the "pirates" in this case are professionals with an established foothold inside of Somalia or if they are simply the fishermen-raiders who've made a very bad decision in the heat of the moment?
If I were one of the guys assigned to solving this solution, this information would seem important to me since it can tell very much about what options the "pirates" have left open. I would recommend a different approach to both groups, since that is what we do normally: act adequately to the situation. If there was no merit in this way of thinking, the authorities would probably use the same tactics against bank-robbers who took hostages as they used against the Branch Davidians.

[auburnblu]

68. My point is

If there is valuable cargo on board the pirates take that and they deem it "mission accomplished". If there is not valuable cargo, they very likely will take hostages.

"Very bad decision in the heat of the moment", will you cut it out? They are very far off coast. You make it seems as if they are a merry band that agrees, "ah yes, today we should go exploring off the coast to see who we could visit."

The analogy with the Branch Davidians and bank robbers is clueless. Now you could do an analogy of a robber that goes into a business, let's say a homeless food pantry, realizes there is nothing of value and decides to take hostages.

Bottom line is these pirates want riches, they are not doing this for some noble cause. They are pirates, not noble enlightened good citizens of the world, not environmental freedom fighters, not high seas adventurers, they are thieving hostage taking pirates. Hopefully if they are imprisoned, their address will be made public so you can send them letters first stating how "enlightened" you are then telling them how noble they are.

[Democracyinkind]

69. fail... read again.

[auburnblu]

70. You are "enlightened"

There is fail here for sure. Please oh please enlightened one explain how your analogy of bank robbers versus the Branch Davidian situation applies to the pirates. Are we dealing with a situation where one shop is being robbed and another ship has a religious cult on it?

Waiting.

[Democracyinkind]

74. Here you go

I simply stated that the authorities use different approaches to a bank robber gone hostage taker and a branch davidian-like situation. That was an example to point out that the people we will send to engage this situation are, unlike yourself, interested to know what kind of people did this thing. Having had a watch on the Somalian pirate scene the last years, I pointed out that generally there are 2 or 3 specific groups that can be made out, and that they characterize themselves by different MO's.

So it would be helpful to know who we are facing - the jihadists, organized crime or the ex-fishermen come pirates. All three should be approached differently, just as we would differentiate our approach when faced with either a bank robber taking hostages, or a branch davidian like situation.

I don't like your hostility. I am not "enlightened", never claimed to be. I was simply explaining why she posted that article and how it is relevant to our subject, even for the authorities, or especially for them. No one of us is excusing any crimes. Hari, the guy quoted in the article, may have a tendency to excuse them. But she didn't post the article for that, she posted it because part of what Hari says - the factual part, not his opinion - can be relevant to the discussion.

Please don't answer me if you don't read this. I have no stake in your opinion about crime, if you want to discuss the history and systemic causes of terrorism, robbery and piracy feel welcome to but maybe we should do that on another thread. Please don't act so combative it is not helpful to the discussion.

[auburnblu]

83. I'll respond if I feel like it

You respond to me with "fail" in a title. So who's the one acting hostile? Please You come across as a know it all. Just read your own post, wow.

I am interested in preventing crimes, you are interested in assuming someone asking for $2 million is a noble contributor.

And don't tell me what I can and cannot respond to, geeez get over yourself.

You don't like my hostility and my responding, oh boo hoo. Then guess what don't read my response and quit acting like you have the moral high ground on this.

And didn't You type "uppity African", in another post, take your elitist racist crap to another board.

[amborin]

97. in a way

think about it: the west is fishing the seas to the point of extinction

they're trying to draw attention to their plight, for starters:

"An environment of poverty and chaos has long prevailed in Somalia, home to the most determined and aggressive of the high-seas pirates. Of the 293 piracy incidents noted by the PRC in 2008, 111, or 38 percent, occurred in the Gulf of Aden or off the coast of Somalia. Many of the most daring incidents--including the seizure of the Sirius Star--also occurred in those waters.

By their own account, many of the Somali pirates are former fishermen driven out of business when the collapsed Somali state could no longer protect the country's rich fishing grounds against predation by the highly organized fleets of other countries. Now penniless, these onetime fishermen have taken up piracy to support their families.

"Killing is not in our plans," the hijacker of a guns-laden cargo ship told a reporter in October 2008. "We only want money so we can protect ourselves from hunger."

<http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090420/klare/2>

[rvablue]

44. OH. MY. Now, I've heard it all!

Yes, these brave hearts are actually brandishing AK-47s and boarding ships to protect the purity of their oceans. :sarcasm:

You cannot be serious?? If you are, let me suggest a little summer trip for you to the Somali coast so you can experience their enviromental vigilanteism firsthand. You might get lucky and actually leave intact.

And yes, if they are going to shoot at innocent sea captains and crew who are only doing their jobs and trying to earn a decent, honest wage, then I say let's go after them with all we've got.

I guess you missed the part of the story that said this U.S. ship was going to Kenya to deliver humanitarian aid to poor and starving and sick people. Yep, you sure missed that part.

[jberryhill]

45. humanitarian aid

But that is the point.

The Somali High Seas Adventurers were offering their services to distribute the aid, and it is appropriate that local contractors should be used to do so.

[rvablue]

49. Is this a joke? If so, LOL!! If not:

:wtf:

[jberryhill]

50. It is an aid matching program

...run by the High Seas Adventurers.

When an aid ship approaches Africa, they visit the ship and solicit matching donations from the ship's owners and crew.

[amborin]

98. you missed the point

perhaps try taking a few courses in political ecology to rid yourself of the superpower/empire perspective

the somali pirates aren't asking for handouts from the west

they're not eager to be recipients of charity from the magnanimous superpowers
(and "poor and starving and sick people" is just a label )

they just want some autonomy, to live their humble lives as they did in the past

before the great powers fished the seas to near extinction

[Democracyinkind]

60. Wrong place. DELETE.

[Democracyinkind]

61. We love our empire just as the repugs do.

Think about it. Here's the party that screamed "kill them all" IS NO A MILITARY TACTIC the last 8 years and the first uppity africans to cross our policies gets this Bushian reaction. Continuance of policy we demand, continuance of policy we get.

That's why your posts cheer me up every day. Maybe someday things can change.

[auburnblu]

72. Oh please

This is an issue, because a U.S. ship is the latest in a string of vessals to be attacked. This isn't occuring off the coast of Korea, or Brail, or the coast of Ireland, or the coast of Mexico, or even the coast of New Zealand. It is happening off the coast of Somalia, that is why those that the military are engaging with happen to be Africans. If it was happening anywhere else I would imagine our response would be the same if not harsher.

You do realize that this was a "Humantarian Aid" ship going to Kenya. I'm not saying kill them all, but I'm also not saying let's be sensitive and caring to the high seas adventurers.

[Democracyinkind]

75. I'm not either. I say jail them, but just do it with the dumpers too.

Sea crime is sea crime no matter who commits it.

the empire comment shouldn't be taken out of context.

Knowing that there are different types of them and informing other people on their respective history is not caring and sensitive. We're just curious guys and gals. We don't even disagree with you that much.

[auburnblu]

84. We???????

"We" Your arrogance is beyond measure. Like "You" speak for everyone on here but me. Look "enlightened" one most posts in this thread have disagreed with you. Cut "the I know everything and thus speak for everyone" bs. "We", please its you.

And oh please only an idiot can't read between the lines on your empire comment. You make a post like that guess what it will be read as meaning something. You're not the only poster on here that can think. Many other posters will draw a conclusion from that.

[amborin]

96. agree....this The Nation article is pretty good, too:

"http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090420/klare/2>

"An environment of poverty and chaos has long prevailed in Somalia, home to the most determined and aggressive of the high-seas pirates. Of the 293 piracy incidents noted by the PRC in 2008, 111, or 38 percent, occurred in the Gulf of Aden or off the coast of Somalia. Many of the most daring incidents--including the seizure of the Sirius Star--also occurred in those waters.

By their own account, many of the Somali pirates are former fishermen driven out of business when the collapsed Somali state could no longer protect the country's rich fishing grounds against predation by the highly organized fleets of other countries. Now penniless, these onetime fishermen have taken up piracy to support their families.

"Killing is not in our plans," the hijacker of a guns-laden cargo ship told a reporter in October 2008. "We only want money so we can protect ourselves from hunger." "

[MrPerson]

7. That are waitin fer that Hillary lass.

[Phoonzang]

9. Hmm....so it takes Americans being affected for America to step it up...

I can't say I'm surprised. Oh America....

[auburnblu]

12. I'm with you

The U.S. is responsible for solving everyone's issue. When a Russian boat was visited by high seas adventurers, clearly it was the responsibility of the U.S. to intervene. In no way should the Russians have any responsibility for intervening.

The Americans that were on this ship that were visited should have responded to all of the other issues. No I'm not saying the miltary, because the Americans in question were on the ship visited. Yes the Americans on this ship should have sailed to the aid of the other ships.

[masuki bance]

25. Less toxic spillage if they just swam over and offered to help.

[shagsak]

64. America... Fuck Yeah!

[slackmaster]

53. It is the job of the US military to protect US interests abroad

It's not really their job to intervene in street crimes perpetrated by non-US people on non-US interests.

[auburnblu]

73. Except

When certain posters on here want to assert its always the responsibility of the U.S. and then when the U.S. does decide to intervene, it's the "evil empire" is barging in where it does not belong.

[Capt. America]

13. Pirates are cooler than ninjas.

[ccharles000]

16. vikings are cooler than pirates

[quakerboy]

24. And yet Ninjas are cooler than Vikings. Its a paradox!

[Aloha Spirit]

29. rock paper scissors redux

nt

[demwing]

87. And the coolest of all are Scandinavian ninjarates! nt

[AZBlue]

112. Cool?

[Jennicut]

26. I bet they want a ransom for the captain, its how these things usually work

The Pirates are greedy. This ship was dropping off relief supplies to Kenya.

[auburnblu]

27. No way

The ship was surely being sailed by greedy people who were looking to pollute. Why in the world would the high seas adventurers that visited want a ransom. Oh sure they may politely ask for a speaking fee as they have sacrificed a lot of their time sharing their adventures with the captain.

[Soylent Brice]

38. i thought they "tricked" the captain into a lifeboat, and sent him adrift. ??

[Beacool]

30. All crews should be armed and blow the fu**ers out of the water.

That would solve that problem real fast. The ships are huge and they are being boarded by a handful of people in tiny crafts. Blow a few of them away and they'll get the message.

:shrug:

[jberryhill]

31. So to be clear....

You want cargo ships entering US ports in Long Beach, Frisco, Seattle, Newark, and New Orleans every day to be carrying armed foreigners?

[Jennicut]

32. Therein lies the problem.

I thought the same thing last night but this morning realized that might not be such a good idea when foreign ships come here.

[jberryhill]

34. It is among the reasons why commercial ships are not armed

That, and so they will not be confused for combatants.

[Beacool]

40. OK, I see your point.

I guess I wasn't thinking this through. But then, what is the solution? Ships should not be at the mercy of pirates. Paying the ransoms only encourages them more.

:-(

[jberryhill]

46. One idea might be...

For countries to designate specific ships with weapons on them, and people trained to use those weapons, in order to enforce order at sea.

They might consider painting the ships grey, and dressing those people in adorable matching pea coats, white bell-bottom pants and hats!

Here's a video of just such an organization:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBXu-iY7cw

[Renew Deal]

48. Do what they did in the old days

Actively destroy the pirates including land excursions.

[Democracyinkind]

55. So you've signed up with the Marines for a another Somali adventure? Or would you prefer joining

Xe's ship in the region?

I thought we democrats don't believe in sending our troops into battles they can't win?
Are you advocating occupation of Somalia?
Or would you be pleased with a little raid? Raze some villages and hope it's all done?

[Renew Deal]

71. A little raid would be effective.

That's what they did in the old days. It destroys their base. And sink Blackwaters ship while you're at it. They're pirates too.

[Democracyinkind]

77. Seems reasonable. But I don't believe raids into Somalia have had a history of success so far

[mkultra]

76. lol, let me lend a hand here

crews on US cargo ships traveling through waters around the horn of africa should be armed. Most of those vessels don't come directly to the US.

[jberryhill]

78. You are correct...

Indeed, many of those ships go to other countries who also don't want armed foreign sailors in their ports.

[mkultra]

81. thats their problem

weapons arent surgically attached. They can be left on the ship when at port. Fact is that many crew members on large vessels pack a sidearm. Its not like sailors have a reputation to protect.

[Democracyinkind]

59. You'll have to pay more for your hotpants then, and since your going to lose your job soon

the industry doesn't like the idea too much.
So it's either you pay for the marines on board or do it yourself.
You might want to think about your emotional stake in the cargo of those ships. Worth risking your life? If not, then it's not worth risking any life - surely not that of american soldiers, whom we have pledged to use only when there is no other option ....

[AtomicKitten]

35. Arrrggghhhh!!!

This pirate can * cough * (cue euphemism) board my ship any time:

[Beacool]

43. STOP the presses!!!

Kitten and I FINALLY agree on something.

I wouldn't throw that pirate off my berth either.

Yummy!!!!

:evilgrin:

[AtomicKitten]

80. Scat!

Hisssssssssssssss.

I'll scratch your eyes out. 4real.

Mine:

[Beacool]

89. Oh yeah, you want to start a cat fight?

Take this



And this



Check this move



Don't force me to take drastic measures



Hissss........

:mad:

[olegramps]

36. These guys are pikers.

When compared to the marauders of Wall Street, they are little more than common thieves. Now the CEO's really know how to plunder, raid and rape. They not only are master privateers they can do it with blessing of those who were suppose to oversee these vultures. I would love to see the bank accounts of these so-called regulators who so conveniently closed the eyes to this massive rip off.

[Democracyinkind]

58. But as soon as they interfere with our incoming hotpants delivery - they've crossed a line

Wall Street never dared to cross! They're preventing us from having the full choice of this years hotpants designs!
Can't have that now, can we.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

41. Do we have Highwaymen yet?

[Norrin Radd]

100. Lupins.

[Political Heretic]

42. Yarr!

[Democracyinkind]

62. Like I say in every post on this topic: PROBLEM SOLVED BY TECHNOLOGY, INDUSTRY DOESN't WANNA PAY.

Acoustic and laser weapons of the Active denial type have been protecting the cruising ships of the rich since a few years now, and they are very effective, there are tons of stories of pirates shitting in their pants and turning the other way because they were blasted with these weapons while approaching.

The thing is: Installing these systems costs millions. Then you have to man them. Then you would need an extra 20 sailors or so just to keep constant watch and be on high alert to make use of the weapons at minute's notice.

But the industry doesn't want to, or can't pay to modernize the fleets. Some big players could, but it would cost them millions, and for most asian fleets, it's simply not affordable.
So we have to pay the navy to do it.

[shagsak]

65. A weapon that will make the enemy shit themselves

I would pay any price for such a weapon.

[Democracyinkind]

67. The shitting part is hearsay, though. But it pretty much prevents anyone from nearing a ship.

I think we will get taste of this technology pretty soon in the US. The Iraqis aren't very fond of it, I hear. Stuff like bleeding eyes does seem to scare people, no matter what cultural background they have.

[jberryhill]

79. "Acoustic and laser weapons ... have been protecting the cruising ships of the rich"

Can you identify the company that manufactures and/or installs these on rich peoples' ships?

Or provide a link to a phtograph or other information on these weapons being mounted on private ships?

Thank you - I know someone who might be interested in one of these.

[auburnblu]

85. Acoustic weapon example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_weaponry

Here's an acoustic example.

[jberryhill]

92. No, it's not an example

It has one unsubstantiated report of a civilian vessel, and states that its "efficacy has not been established."

You said these were in normal commercial use. Who makes them and where are they installed?

[auburnblu]

93. Sure seems like an example

It is an example of how its used. I'll let the poster who claimed all rich people were using them on their ships defend the widespread use. I don't think these weapons are in widespread use, but it seems like they may be on some ships.

[jberryhill]

103. Then the questions of...

Who manufactures them, where does one buy one, and how much do they cost, should be simple questions.

[auburnblu]

104. Will let Democracyinkind answer

Was just indicating examples of an acoustic weapon in use and again, I don't believe that they are in widespread use yet.

[auburnblu]

86. Laser weapons

http://www.military.com/news/article/navy-wants-new-laser-weapons.html

[jberryhill]

91. You said these were in use aboard civilian vessels

That's not described in the article.

Who makes them and for how much?

[auburnblu]

94. Ask Democracyinkind

His claim not mine. He can do the google search on that.

[Democracyinkind]

101. I think there are alot of articles about the accoustic weapons of Queen Mary 2.

You are telling me you haven't found this shit on your own? Or you just want to piss me off?

I can't imagine a quick search with the keywords I provided did not turn anything up.

http://www.atcsd.com/site/content/view/15/32/

The Lrad is like 5 years old, if my notes are right that is the system used on QM2 and most cruising ships. I'm no weapons expert, but I got to know some people who work on the big cruiseships, and they have been talking about that. If what they say is true, this thing is about the best protection you can get, they have witnessed pirates simply turning around. I know that there is a European company marketing a similiar technology and I think there is an asian one who work on blinding lasers - the thing that made our checkpoints in iraq so safe. I'm pretty sure anyone interested will be able to find that with a hearted search.

BTW if there is anyone whose schooling gives him a good understanding of this weapon or if there ever is a sailor reading this who has seen this weapon in action I'd be very interested in a conversation! I really wanna know if the shitting part is bogus.

[jberryhill]

108. Are degrees in electrical engineering with a minor in physics sufficient?

The LRAD is a communication and warning device which allows one to issue verbal commands and warning tones across long distances without using a huge loudspeaker, since it uses a phased acoustic array approach to generating what amounts to a "beam of sound".

You can read about it here, but it is nothing like the "weapon" you describe:

http://www.atcsd.com/site/content/view/15/30/

The LRAD 1000 can issue a verbal challenge with instructions in excess of 500 meters and has the capability of following up with a warning tone of 151 dB (at one meter) to influence behavior or determine intent.

The LRAD 500 produces a sound pattern that provides clear communication beyond 300 meters. The deterrent tone can reach a maximum of 145 dB (at one meter) to influence behavior or determine intent.


A pair of twenty five cent foam earplugs would provide sufficient protection against this "weapon", if you didn't want to hear what was being transmitted.

[Democracyinkind]

109. That's strange.

Because the people manning the cruise ships have told me different stuff. I searched my favorites for why I believe the LRAD to be an acoustic weapon and found the article - granted maybe they misidentified it and I'll have to search further.

snip from the article:

" Until now, it wasn't widely known that the US Defense Department was sharing the so-called Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) with commercial cruise ships. The weapon is essentially a small dish that beams hellishly loud noise that is deafening but not lethal. Weighing 20 kilograms and as big as a TV satellite dish, the device looks deceptively harmless. But once trained on its target, it blasts a tight beam of painful siren-like sound.

It's not known how the grinning pirates 160 kilometers off the coast of the Horn of Africa reacted as they suddenly were hit by the LRAD. But they were close, and the closer one is to the sonic cannon, the worse the effect is. It's possible they received permanent hearing damage, but at the very least they experienced an excruciating headache and ear pain to the point that they could no longer see or hear. They also quickly lost the desire to board the ship. Of course, even Captain Blackbeard would have quickly set sail when confronted with 150 decibels of pure noise. "

http://www.tomdoch.de/work/newsletter/archiv/05_11_15_03.html

(english translation available on bottom of page) /-> spiegel.de story


If you get the science behind this, can you tell me if the LRAD is definitely misidentified? I thought I had it figured all out - the iraqi civilians strange claims of "future weapons" use, the descriptions of US soldiers, the above mentioned incident in 2005, the presentation of the active denial system to the press by the army. I thought that was all the same thing - the LRAD?

If the LRAD is only what you posted, then there must be another system - used on QM2 (from where I've heard the stories) and in the 2005 incident (of which I only know thru the press).
Are you positive that the LRAD cannot produce said results in people? The way I've heard it, it is pretty much left open to the user if you use it as a communication device or as a weapon.

Interesting post. thanks.

[jberryhill]

110. Coming up behind somewhat and shouting "Boo" will cause a variety of reactions too!

But it doesn't make "shouting at people" a weapon.

Yes, a loud noise can be painful - but that's all this thing does, is to enable one to make a directed loud noise so that you can be heard over a decent distance without a lot of dispersion. That's of obvious utility for ships, but that's all it is.

This thing is larger, performs a similar function, and nobody calls it a weapon:



And, yeah, I've seen all kinds of reactions to it.

[Democracyinkind]

111. So you're saying the claims made in the article are bogus?

Is it not possible to use directed acoustics to bring someone to his knees? Forcing him to close his eyes, loose his orientation and occasionally shit in his pants?

I mean the Gurkha in the "Seabourn Spirit" incident contradicts what you say. He specifically states that they fell to their knees, barely able to steer their dingy, and turned around right away. According to to a lecture (called Piracy and Cruising: when two worlds meet) I've attended there have been several such incidents involving cruise ships. It seems to be effective... is your objection solely to calling it a "weapon" or do you principally disbelieve the story?

The way it was used in the "Seabourn Spirit" incident, I don't see how calling it a weapon is not justified.

[jberryhill]

113. The effectiveness of the LRAD in the Sebourn Spirit incident is questionable

There is no doubt that an LRAD can produce sound loud enough to cause pain, as can a rock band or jet engine, and there is no doubt that if I shouted at you through, say, a megaphone at a distance of several feet, you may be startled and crap your pants - but that is simply a reaction to a sudden loud sound, which is what the LRAD can produce. It's simply a focused loudspeaker.

It certainly made no difference with the MV Biscaglia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Biscaglia, and these things can be defeated with a pair of earplugs, like those used by aircraft ramp workers.

[Phx_Dem]

82. I can't believe the U.S. Navy can't eliminate four losers in a little wooden

boat with no gas. Don't they have any fucking sharp shooters? Or how about a group of Navy Seals mounting an underwater sneak attack -- one guy grabs the Captain and the others each take out one of the pirates?

Now, I don't know shit about military manuevers and I know things are never as easy as us "arm-chair quarterbacks" liek to think, and they do have the Captain hostage, but seriously. WTF? Maybe the plan is to starve them and then attack? I heard on the radio that Navy ships were shadowing the other pirate boats, who are trying to come to their rescue, in order to keep them away from the 4 with the hostage.

As soon as they get the Captain back, they need to blow every one of those little fuckers out of the water. Leaving them alive to prey on others would be a huge mistake. If they weren't armed, I'd say they should take them alive, but since they are, they should just kill them and be done with it.

[peaches2003]

88. You haven't seen a picture of the lifeboat?

It is a totally enclosed airtight metal capsule type of boat. Only small windows for air. There is no way to pick off any of the pirates- you can't see them. At least that is what they showed on tv with another lifeboat from the ship.

[amborin]

99. spoken

like a true war-mongering, empire-building imperialist

[mkultra]

90. shes taking payola from ninjas

[Wetzelbill]

95. Obligatory Johnny Depp joke

Yeah I just phoned that one in.

I hope they get the captain back ok, in all seriousness.

[Democracyinkind]

102. ditto

contrary to what some people may think, I believe everyone on this thread is hoping and "praying" for the captain and his family at home.

[auburnblu]

105. Wish the French would stop toxic dumping

I don't believe the French sailboat was there for any other reason but to dump toxic waste. Great disguise having a kid on board. And the imperialist French Empire how horrible of them for attacking the Somolia Volunteer Coast Guard. The Coast Guard had just decided to visit the toxic dumping sailboat momentarily and found that the sailboat had an issue. Thus the Coast Guard was kind enough to offer to steer the sailboat to the coast and best of all offer to provide the greedy persons (clearly guilty of toxic dumping) an opportunity to stay in Somolia.

I wish the imperialist French Empire would cut this environmental polluting out, "We" on DU know who the true bad people are in this situation.