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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 09:01 AM
Original message
Trusting Obama to do the right thing isn't enough
Edited on Sun Apr-12-09 09:12 AM by bigtree

THERE are too many forces in government, and in the military leadership and establishment, to rely solely on Pres. Obama to mitigate and smooth-over every obstacle and obstruction to the power and authority of his office. Nor is it credible to expect that the good will and intention of his deputies, Cabinet, or subordinates is all that's required to overcome the institutionalized and deliberately ingrained flaws and faults in our government and our national policy.

That's why I think it's a mostly meaningless defense against criticisms of the president's stated and enacted policy to dismiss the complaints with a hearty vote of confidence and trust in whatever view one has of Mr. Obama's character and intention.

There are broad elements of policy which are influenced by politics to such an extent that good will and intention falls short of what's needed to break a stalemate or achieve the necessary amount of support for enactment. It is fine to have faith in the president's political approach, but, conversely, it is also proper to take a negative view of the politics the administration is employing to effect their stated goals. The tool of compromise which the president has emphasized isn't the only lever available or prudent for every effort. We can certainly, reasonably disagree on those exercises of politics and the president's wisdom or prudence in his method of persuasion or debate.

Also, it's become a common, companion defense of the president to remind critics that they got what the president promised. That may well be true, on the outlines of his pronouncements during the campaign, but there are so many nuances to working initiatives and policy through the legislative or executive process - and so many details to policy which couldn't be fully fleshed out in an election - that we've seen a divergence in the details on some issues away from expectations of some folks.

Criticism of those divergences, where folks perceive that policy is being enacted in a way which wasn't defined in the campaign (or was implied with greater or lesser emphasis in the political debate), is a perfectly natural consequence in our political system. The candidates (Obama included) make an effort in their campaigns to appeal to as broad a spectrum of views as possible. Is anyone suggesting that these candidates and their positions weren't regularly oversold and exaggerated (especially by the candidates themselves)?

It's proper and necessary to generate a large coalition of concerns to the ballot box behind a candidacy, and Pres. Obama has said all along that, as a result of the effort, he expects differences in support for the things he manages to accomplish.

The expression of those differences is what makes our political system run. Our national legislature is set up to accommodate either argument or compromise. There's little room for dictating policy in our Congress. Anything which advances has to be the product of some appeasement to the opposing party, no matter where it originated. The president sits at the end of that process and makes the choice whether to accept or reject the initiative or law before him. Then, Congress has another chance to disagree with the president, if they choose to.

I'm at a loss to see how folks can reasonably expect anyone who is informed enough about the political process, and informed about the initiative or policy they're concerned with, to place eternal confidence in the president to make all of the right choices and to have the ultimate wisdom and influence to cause the myriad of those concerns to prevail. It's just not honest to represent the host of concerns Americans have as a mere bundle of opposition to the president, personally, or, as a judgment folks are making about his competence or ability. They are just fighting for, and defending their views and initiatives against what they may see as unnecessary compromise or even outright exclusion from consideration.

There is very little mystery in our political system anymore. With the instantaneous sharing of information available, there is great institutional and experiential knowledge about the process and about the prospective political outcomes. It's entirely credible to have legitimate, but opposing, views on that political process and the legislation or initiatives which are being advanced.

It's also entirely credible to have informed and insightful (but, opposing) views on the prospects of the president in managing initiatives and policy to enactment, based on the approach taken and on the elements of what's being advanced.


There is another dynamic which should be respected when responding to criticisms of the dual-occupations. The president has the ability to set military policy on Iraq and Afghanistan in much any fashion he chooses, using the same autocratic exercise of our forces that Bush used to deploy our troops and hold them there. That assumed Executive power is as much a product of the negligence, indifference, and outright complicity of Congress as it is any overreach by the president.

It's not like the administration is going to put their military moves before the Congress for approval to have them jam-up in the political gridlock which infects all else in the Capitol. That reluctance to involve Congress in the decision-making on the occupations appeared earlier on when the promise to submit the Iraqi SOFA to Congress for 'approval' became a promise to submit it for 'review'.

That assumed authority by the president on the occupations could also be interpreted as an ability, or an opportunity, to move even further away from the militarism than he's proposed. It's entirely reasonable to have supported Mr. Obama during the campaign, and to be disappointed with how much of the militarism he has embraced or allowed to continue. It's been months since that campaign. The realities 'on the ground' in both Iraq and Afghanistan have changed - or, in the case of both, have stagnated; Iraq politically, and Afghanistan militarily. We are not limited in our opinion (nor, is Pres. Obama) to what we knew about those operations during the election.

Further, if you begin with the view that both military deployments are illegal, immoral, or inherently untenable, there is no 'middle ground' on ending them as the president is seeking to achieve. For those folks, the slogan 'give peace a chance' can't be substituted with 'give militarism a chance'. That's a view which I believe deserves a great deal of respect. I personally wouldn't subjugate that view to any effort or opinion to escalate the militarism in either Iraq or Afghanistan - at least, not without a reasonable expectation that the policy the president is leading with will ultimately achieve that end to the occupations.

So, the bottom-line of this rant is that our responsibility to vigilance in support of the issues and concerns which we care about, and which affect us most, doesn't end with our votes. Power almost never concedes willingly, and it will take constant and unrelenting advocacy and activism to advance those concerns through the political system into enactment or law. The criticisms are an integral and vital part of that process.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. A president is defined by the decisions he/she makes and the decisions of cabinet members. Words
spoken by presidents and their spokespersons are hollow promises with as much value as a piece of used toilet paper.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
48. There goes the Gettysburg address : "as much value as a piece of used toilet paper"
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. The trouble is there is a bit of disagreement nationwide of each "right thing"
whats the "right thing" with the economy, or the "right thing" with immigration. There is often no "right thing" thats known in advance and is agreed on by all people of good will.
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. it's a sad joke-65% approval until even the dimmest realize it's a scam,rinse start cycle over
really sleazy
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Perhaps true to an extent
but elections do at least function as stress tests that let those in charge how much they will be allowed to get over at a given time. Unfortunately, the last generation the electorate has pretty reliably answered "go for the gusto" and they did so we are were we are. I'm actually rather optimistic that to some degree people are engaged enough to meekly ask for the foreign object to please be removed from their ass. Unfortunately, the whole damn house burned down while they were sleeping.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. Feet must be held to fires.
Especially Democratic feet.
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Kokonoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
6. Obama actually needs dissent and criticism to enact change.
We gave bushler all our effort to make the case for change.
Now we sit and hope that Obama makes change, when nobody is demonstrating a reason.
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Obama is DEPENDING on us to hold his feet to the fire..............K&R


The entrenched corporate interests will be defeated only with difficulty.

We have to do our job.

Obama needs us and is depending on us to hold his feet to the fire.




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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
41. What is not to get here?
:freak::shrug::freak:
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
46. Yes. The more dissent, the greater his mandate for change.
There are indeed many forces trying to drown us out. It behooves us to make it hard for our president to ignore us. We seem to have one, finally, who will listen. Our dissent can actually increase his political capital, when it comes to getting the right things done.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. well said bigtree
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
8. i think the common view of those critical of the curmudgeon
Is that at 70 days in, its excessive to be criticizing his policies since he hasn't really had adequate time to make any real judgments. The only true issue he has been dealing with is the economy and it might be wise to wait and see rather than judge him based on some kind of orthodoxy. He is judicious and patient. Those who judge him for lack of speed are really just being childish.

To me, if your harsh right out of the gate, then you have a prejudice against him.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. do you think we can credibly judge the effects and consequences of the air bombardments
Edited on Sun Apr-12-09 10:57 AM by bigtree
. . . and the effects and consequences of raids in the Iraqi and Afghan communities and provinces?

What about judging the wisdom of where our money has already gone . . . and who it's gone to?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. whoever wants to set a good example
. . . must add a grain of foolishness to his virtue: then others can imitate and yet at the same time surpass the one they imitate—which human beings love to do.

-Nietzsche
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. I think you measure grains in pounds
Edited on Sun Apr-12-09 11:49 AM by mkultra
don't take moral advice from nietzsche. Its a sign of a literary hack.

in response to your hackery:

A fool always finds one still more foolish to admire him.
-Nicolas Boileau

and

A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant fool.
- Moliere
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. so,
I'm a literary hack. More inspiration.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. weave on then
it has some entertainment value.
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. There are people who can't wait
to see if he is right about the economy. They are losing jobs, housing, medical care, and sometimes their life, while Obama is experimenting with his "economic advisers". These same "advisers" are part of the very system that is bleeding the taxpayers dry. How long should people wait until Obama gets a clue? Should we wait until 25% are homeless? How about 50%? Would that get his attention?

zalinda
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. "those critical of the curmudgeon" meaning Obama is "An ill-tempered person full of resentment and
stubborn notions."

That seems to be a harsh description of our new President.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. the use of the word "the" makes it a noun not an adjective
Edited on Sun Apr-12-09 11:23 AM by mkultra
lol. No wonder.


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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
43. he has had enough time to decide how to deal with bush/cheney crimes.
that was a no-brainer years ago. he has chosen wrongly, the the great detriment of the u.s. everything else depends on that. that is my starting point and ending point because with corruption unchallenged nothing else can work, nothing. unhappy with that? i'll pm you my suggestion.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
13. Trusting the President is not the right thing
Trusting angry mobs whose anger (I want my way), or ulterior motives (freepers), gets in the way of objective analysis is worse.







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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. professional quality common sense----ProSense.
:)
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
44. mischaracterizing bullshit. nt
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. Sure it is. n/t
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
15. Well stated, Bigtree.
Thanks for the perspective.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. she'd get the same consideration
. . . from me.

(mkultra revisits Democratic primary. Inspiring.)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Aloha Spirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. This is a joke, right?
Please let this be a joke.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. If only.
:banghead:
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #22
52. You are always genuine and consistant Bigtree and well-respected here because of it.
:hug:
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. Bigtree isn't a PUMA--not by a long shot
He means what he says, and I for one have respect for it, even if I disagree.

There are loathsome PUMAscum hanging around here hating on Obama as a fulltime DU activity, but he's the exact opposite.

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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #30
51. Thank you for saying that
Bigtree is far, far from being a PUMA.

I don't always agree with him on every topic, but Bigtree is one of my favorite posters on DU. You know that with him there is consistency and a real genuineness.
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Aloha Spirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
29. This is my feeling about the range of responses to Obama's military decisions so far...
A lot of us have the same general opinion about what we feel is acceptable in terms of military actions and what the Defense Department's role is in general.
And there's a lot of room between that and what is actually happening.

I think a lot of us who would otherwise agree are taking different amounts of time to come to terms in different ways with this gap.

Some of us find it inexcusable, and can make a sound argument that we need to make sure our beliefs in the role of the US are heard. It's possible that these people will turn the issue around in their head and eventually decide that Obama's making the best of a bad situation or something like that.

Others of us may currently feel that, for whatever reason, Obama has demonstrated during the election, during his Senate term, by the appointments he's made, or by other actions or speeches that he deserves the benefit of the doubt for right now. These same people may decide, after turning over the issue in their head for a while, that there is something fundamentally inexcusable about our role in Afghanistan and/or Iraq.

Personally, I'm ambivalent.
I just think that a lot of this disagreement here is rhetorical, and stems from people who would theoretically agree on the principles of the thing digesting the facts differently.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. His military decisions are in full accord with his statements during his campaign.
What are you surprised about, exactly? Did you watch the debates? I watched all the Dem. nominee debates, as well as all the Dem vs. Repubic debates, as well as most of the Repub nominee debates.

O made his military plans pretty clear. Maybe not detailed, but they were still clear. I suspect a lot of people didn't believe him, both on the left and on the right. But as Obama is fond of saying, "I mean what I say."

He planned on going after Osama bin Laden and the Taliban in Afghanistan, and if necessary, in Pakistan, if Pakistan didn't handle their own country to his satisfaction. He planned on starting to pull the troops out of Iraq, in consultation with our military leaders, as soon as reasonably possible, considering the safety of the troops and the Iraqi citizens (again, in consultation with our military leaders).

So...where's the surprise?
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Aloha Spirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. wow, congratulations on watching all the debates
So did I.

I think you misread my point, and my position. I stated that I'm ambivalent, not surprised.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
31. I think the point that many who make in response to criticisms, is that the criticisms are
too soon. They started coming in the FIRST WEEK after the inauguration (heck, some were even before then).

Even now, he has only been in office about 90 days.

I am suspicious of people who repeatedly post criticisms about the job performance of someone who has scarcely had time to get started on the job.

Get it? Methinks some people are still angry that their guy (whether it's Kucinich or Hillary or whoever) didn't get the job. There are also some trolls here.

A criticism at this stage is not the same as criticism a year from now. No one can possibly know what the results of his current decisions will be for awhile.

I am also suspicious of a poster who repeatedly criticizes without praising. Obama is, I think it's fair to say, performing very well by objective standards (and subjective standards, if you want to believe the polls) at this point. So if a poster is truly fair, but has one or two criticisms, the posts will reflect that. Some posts post ONLY criticisms. Over and over and over and over. Crying like babies 'cause Obama isn't doing this or that (whatever the poster's pet issue is). I have my own pet issues, BTW. And I made sure I knew where O stood on those issues. So I am not surprised by his actions re the environment, etc. No one should be surprised by almost anything he's done. He's done a rare thing: gone about fulfilling his campaign promises (with a couple of exceptions).
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. you're wrong
it's right to start the analysis immediately if you see the ship veering off course
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #31
45. i started before the election.
i started when he brought colin powell on board. thank you very much.

and, btw, what you think is "fair to say", isn't, necessarily. you're obviously proceeding from you perspective and we from ours. so sorry you don't get to decide what is "fair to say".
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bajamary Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
34. Please watch Bill Moyers and William K Black
PBS broadcast of Bill Moyers Journal

April 3, 2009

The financial industry brought the economy to its knees, but how did they get away with it? With the nation wondering how to hold the bankers accountable, Bill Moyers sits down with William K. Black, the former senior regulator who cracked down on banks during the savings and loan crisis of the 1980s. Black offers his analysis of what went wrong and his critique of the bailout.


http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Thanks one-note
How many times are you going to repost this? The video was posted this week and was on Greatest page.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
36. amen
n/t
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
37. Thanks so much for this.\nt
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
39. Totally. The only real solution is to bitch and whine on DU, where 1/2 the shit...
you're bitching about is made up, the other 1/2 just hasn't happened yet, and 1 or 2 things are actually real.

Moreover, it's clear that you simply MUST ignore AT ALL COSTS anything good he does. Or at the very least, look HARD to find all the bad you can in whatever he does well. Again, even if you have to make shit up.

Then, and only then, will you be a "true progressive", my sons and daughter.

Amen.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. projecting
. . . is fun. What a funny imagination you have.

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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #39
53. Yeah DU SUCKS!!!
Or something.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
42. That's a lot of words! I'm going to be intellectually lazy and not read most of them.
I have a feeling I either somewhat agree or mildly disagree with most of what you say here, as with most of your posts, but you're always a class act, so you get a :thumbsup: from me.
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biopowertoday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
47. I see some of Nietzsche in your

post. It has been a while since I read Nietzsche (and I read him through the lens of Michele Foucault and his view of history). If your comments below are not Nietzchean-I apologize.
But Nietzche set the stage for asking questions such as: How is possible for Obama to think the way he does at this time? What are the network of power relationships inherent in individual decisions---or the effects of power?. Our bodies/minds/spirits/intentions are 'totally imprinted by history" (I do not recall if it Foucault or Nietzsche who said that). OH---all too human............


.......THERE are too many forces in government, and in the military leadership and establishment, to rely solely on Pres. Obama to mitigate and smooth-over every obstacle and obstruction to the power and authority of his office. Nor is it credible to expect that the good will and intention of his deputies, Cabinet, or subordinates is all that's required to overcome the institutionalized and deliberately ingrained flaws and faults in our government and our national policy.

That's why I think it's a mostly meaningless defense against criticisms of the president's stated and enacted policy to dismiss the complaints with a hearty vote of confidence and trust in whatever view one has of Mr. Obama's character and intention.

There are broad elements of policy which are influenced by politics to such an extent that good will and intention falls short of what's needed to break a stalemate or achieve the necessary amount of support for enactment. It is fine to have faith in the president's political approach, but, conversely, it is also proper to take a negative view of the politics the administration is employing to effect their stated goals. The tool of compromise which the president has emphasized isn't the only lever available or prudent for every effort. We can certainly, reasonably disagree on those exercises of politics and the president's wisdom or prudence in his method of persuasion or debate.......
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
49. We should not only have Obama's back, but his ass as well. . .
The former, when the RW gangs up against him, the latter when he gets too hesitant to do the right thing.

:kick:
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