Morris (former Marine officer and Sere graduate) "Close SERE (torture school) now".

[grantcart]

http://www.slate.com/id/2216709



The release of a newly declassified congressional report on Tuesday suggested that some of the brutal interrogation techniques used during the Bush administration were developed in the Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape (or SERE) military training program, which was designed to teach American soldiers how to resist interrogation. In January, David J. Morris detailed his own experiences with SERE. The article is reprinted below:

. . .

While I was in the school, I lived like an animal. I was hooded, beaten, starved, stripped naked, and hosed down in the December air until I became hypothermic. At one point, I couldn't speak because I was shivering so hard. Thrown into a 3-by-3-foot cage with only a rusted coffee can to piss into, I was told that the worst had yet to come. I was violently interrogated three times. When I forgot my prisoner number, I was strapped to a gurney and made to watch as a fellow prisoner was water-boarded a foot away from me. I will never forget the sound of that young sailor choking, seemingly near death, paying for my mistake. I remember only the sound because, try as I might, I couldn't force myself to look at his face. I was next. But for some reason, the guards just dropped the hose on my chest, the water soaking my uniform.


. . .
The experience of torture at SERE surely plays a role in the minds of the graduates who go on to be interrogators, and it must on some level help them rationalize their actions. It's not hard to imagine them thinking, Well, if I survived this, then it's OK to do it to this guy. This acceptance of abuse from up high down to the lowest levels is the root of our military's torture problem. Unlike other Western militaries (Britain's, for example), ours thrives on sometimes-cartoonish authoritarianism and contrived rites of passage (like those hazing scandals that continually plague all the service academies). To young, impressionable soldiers, it is a too-short mental leap to the depredations of Abu Ghraib, as evidenced by a 2007 Army Times poll showing that 44 percent of enlisted Marines thought torturing a detainee was OK under certain circumstances. As John McCain said of torture in 2005, "It's not about them—it's about us."

Because the operation of SERE is entirely a military matter, its role hasn't received anything like the attention of the legal machinations that licensed the Bush administration's abuses at Guantanamo. But unless we stop torturing our own servicemen and training them how to torture others, unless we close SERE and retrain its instructors, Guantanamo could happen again.

[IndianaGreen]

1. Close the School of the Americas at Fort Benning

That's the largest school for torture and assassination in the world.

[FightingIrish]

2. It sounds like SERE has gotten a lot nastier

I graduated from the Navy's SERE school near San Diego during the Vietnam War. It was very unpleasant but I never felt any real danger. To me, the most frightening thing was when they cold cocked a lieutenant commander who identified himself as the senior POW. We had the hours in tiny dark boxes and non-stop oriental music. They focused more on psychological tactics that at times were laughable. They knew from my personnel records that my father owned a soft drink distributorship. They tried to break my will by saying bad things about Pepsi-Cola. I had to bite my lip or they would have really made me pay for giggling. Today's' SERE sounds like the bastards have really gotten into the whole torture program.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

11. I have a friend who went through SERE fairly recently.

He was waterboarded, lost all his toenails and was kept mildly hypothermic nearly the whole time. They were kept in 50 gallon metal drums with air holes for cells. One of his classmates arm was broken.

David

[wmbrew0206]

14. The losing all his toenails, metal drums, and broken arm sounds like BS

It is very possible that your friend lost his toenails during the field portion of SERE from exertion, but it was not from the instructors during the captivity portion of the course. Same with a broken arm. Your post makes it seem like both happen from the captivity portion.

He was pulling your leg with the 50 gallon metal drum.

I went through SERE in '06.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

19. Nope.

He lost his toenails to the pallets they had him walk on blindfolded while taking him to interrogation, although he may have almost all of his toemails. The broken arm was from an interrogator performing some type of arm bar/lock on a subject. They kept them in drums during short periods throughout a 24 hour period, like temporary holding cells. No reason for him to lie, for starters we are very close, he didn't volunteer the information I asked him about it specifically, he had a distinguished military career and was crtically injured while saving the lives of two firemen on the fireground. No offense taken or intended but I'll take him at his word.

David

[wmbrew0206]

23. When you said he lost his toe nails you did not specify how that happened...

leaving one to believe that they were pulled out. That is a torture technique used in interrogations by many bad people the world over. They do NOT do that in SERE School.

How exactly did he loses his toenails walking on pallets while blind folded? I'm not saying it did not happen, but I know that portion of the training and never heard of anyone losing their toenails.

Being kept in a 55 gallon drum for short periods of time is different than "They were kept in 50 gallon metal drums with air holes for cells." If that is what I think it is, than it is a different delivery method for a technique I'm familiar with. I've never heard of 55 gallon drums being used. However, that is not what is used for cells.

As for the broken arm, if that happened, than that instructor was fired and his/her career is probably over. The purpose of SERE school is to prepare the student for captivity, not to inflict last damage on any student. Lasting damage being defined as injury lasting longer than a week after the school is over. I was very sore for about five days after I finished.

I respect your admiration for your friend and completely understand you taking his word over an internet poster. Please PM which SERE school he went to if you feel so inclined.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. Sorry for the false impression.

Just trying to keep it brief and relate the difficulty encountered, I should have been more specific. My friend left the impression that the NCO responsible for the broken arm was punished, I don't know to what degree. As I'm sure you are aware it's not difficult to break an arm with certain techniques especially if you are inexperienced with those techniques. As to the toenails the apparent point of the pallets was to cause the blind folded POWs to have trouble walking, he said he would step into the gaps and catch his toenails on boards and pry them up. The pallets weren't the actual floor they just had them scattered about the floor. Of course several of his toes could have been damaged during evasion phase and he not realize it till he had time to think about it. Take care.

David

[wmbrew0206]

30. Dave, thanks for the clarification.

All of that makes a lot of sense with the additional info.

Sorry if I came off as dismissive in my original response.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

32. No worries, you were right, it did look like I was implying some things I didn't intend.

[GiveMeFreedom]

33. yep, me too

Hi FightingIrish,

I was aircrew on a P-3 Orion 75-79. I remember the last day at camp and the debrief a naval Captain gave us on returning to the naval station, at San Diego. I think the exercise taught me more about not giving up hope, in the most dire situation. That even though our "human rights" were being violated, that it was possible to form a semi-cohesive unit that could function within those limited parameters. The tap code was a jewel. My last day was memorable, all the quests got on their hands and knees shoulder to shoulder, at one end of the camp. The guards then had us all start crawling backwards, dragging our fingers through the sand, like lawn rakes. It was kinda looking good, a nice pattern was starting to develop, when all of a sudden, an F-15 buzzed the camp and broke the sound barrier doing it. The Chinese music stopped for a split second, and was replaced by our national anthem. The communist flag, that had been flying all week, was coming down and the stars and stripes were headed up. Immediately, the guards starting pulling people to their feet and congratulating everyone for making the course. They were handing out candy bars and cigarettes to everyone, apologizing, as best they could for doing their jobs. A few scuffles broke out, but were quickly cooled off, these guys knew what to expect from the trainees. I am remember feeling extremely patriotic and I admit to shedding a tear or two, I was not alone. It was a difficult course, but I was willing. Might be a different experience if I was not so willing. The Captain, I mentioned earlier, came into the room we were all shuffled into when we got back to base. We were all dirty, tired, and fucking hungry, someone called "attention on deck" but the Captain waved that off real quick. What he said, I can clearly remember like it was yesterday: "I know you guys weren't to impressed or worried with the training syllabus, after all, it doesn't grab your attention right away," he said "However, if we had pulled one of your buddies out of the line up, at the very beginning of the training, put him on his knees in front of all of you, so you could all see him and put a bullet in his head, well, that's what got my attention when I was first captured and became a POW." I'll never forget what he said, that was a reality check. Of course, after all that, I can remember being dismissed and heading over to the chow hall, dirty and tired and getting as much food on plate as I possibly could, I was real hungry.


edited some misspelled words.

[dalaigh lllama]

3. The original purpose of SERE was twisted -- it wasn't to teach how to torture

It was to teach how to resist torture. I've been plowing thru the senate report and there were reports that the use of the techniques from SERE could be useless or even counterproductive. From page 84:

"The use of physical pressures brings with it a large number of potential negative side effects... When individuals are gradually exposed to increasing levels of discomfort, it is more common for them to resist harder. That is one of the reasons we use it - to increase the resistance posture of our soldiers. If individuals are put under enough discomfort, i.e. pain, they will eventually do whatever it takes to stop the pain. This will increase the amount of information they tell the interrogator, but it does not mean the information is accurate. In fact, it usually decreases the reliability of the information because the person will say whatever he believes will stop the pain. Now, there are certain exceptions, like with all generalizations, but they are not common. Bottom line: The likelihood that the use of physical pressures will increase the delivery of accurate information from a detainee is very low. The likelihood that the use of physical pressures will increase the level of resistance in a detainee is very high...

"It is important to remember that SERE instructors use these techniques(physical pressures) because they are effective at increasing resistance. ...Because of the danger involved, very few SERE instructors are allowed to actually use physical pressures...everything that is occurring (in SERE school) is very carefully monitored and paced... Even with all these safeguards, injuries and accidents do happen. The risk with real detainees is increased exponentially.

"My strong recommendation is that you do not use physical pressures ...(If GTMO does decide to use them) you are taking a substantial risk, with very limited potential benefit."

[Born_A_Truman]

5. My husband went to SERE school as a Naval aviator

It was a survival school and it was to help them survive if they went down and/or were captured.

[dalaigh lllama]

7. Exactly! Their original function was twisted in service to Bushco's torture regimen

Lots of not-happy-with-this memos by SERE folks in the report.

[wmbrew0206]

15. You could not be more wrong. SERE did not changed from Reagan to Bush to Clinton to Bush to Obama

SERE stands for survival evasion resistance and escape. It is meant to prepare military members who might end up behind enemy lines (pilots, paratroops, etc) how to survive when that happens and how to deal with interrogations if captured and how to escape.

SERE came about after Vietnam when the US Military realized after interviewing all the POWs that just teaching the Code of Conduct was not enough and we had to do a better job of preparing our service members for what they would face in captivity.

The SERE course has not changed in scope since it came about. There may be some small details of the course that have changed but the big things (ie interrogation techniques) have remained the same since the '80's.

While there is plenty to blame Bush for, twisting the purpose of SERE school is not one of them.

[MgtPA]

17. Wrong. Navy sailors were sent to SERE school in the 1960's in Maine.

[wmbrew0206]

21. Actually since the '50's for the AF and '60 for Veitnam

My main point still stands. The course has not change significantly since the '80's.

[dalaigh lllama]

18. I'm sorry. My wording was poor. Bushco took

the torture techniques used to teach defense at SERE and adopted them as offense against the detainees. From the looks of the article in the OP, all some people are getting is that the torture techniques came from SERE. Ergo SERE = bad. I realize that is not true. Some of the folks from SERE tried to explain why this wouldn't work, but they were ignored because it wasn't what Bushco wanted to hear. Here's one who spoke up from p.84 in the senate report:

"The use of physical pressures brings with it a large number of potential negative side effects... When individuals are gradually exposed to increasing levels of discomfort, it is more common for them to resist harder. That is one of the reasons we use it - to increase the resistance posture of our soldiers. If individuals are put under enough discomfort, i.e. pain, they will eventually do whatever it takes to stop the pain. This will increase the amount of information they tell the interrogator, but it does not mean the information is accurate. In fact, it usually decreases the reliability of the information because the person will say whatever he believes will stop the pain. Now, there are certain exceptions, like with all generalizations, but they are not common. Bottom line: The likelihood that the use of physical pressures will increase the delivery of accurate information from a detainee is very low. The likelihood that the use of physical pressures will increase the level of resistance in a detainee is very high...

"It is important to remember that SERE instructors use these techniques(physical pressures) because they are effective at increasing resistance. ...Because of the danger involved, very few SERE instructors are allowed to actually use physical pressures...everything that is occurring (in SERE school) is very carefully monitored and paced... Even with all these safeguards, injuries and accidents do happen. The risk with real detainees is increased exponentially.

"My strong recommendation is that you do not use physical pressures ...(If GTMO does decide to use them) you are taking a substantial risk, with very limited potential benefit."

[wmbrew0206]

22. According to the OP this school should be closed. I strongly disagree.

The US Military needs a school that prepares its members for what it will be like if they are captured and how to deal with it mentally and physically. They also need to be prepare to know what they are going to face and what to expect. That is what this school does.

Closing SERE school will not change how US service men and women are treated when they are captured. It will leave them less prepared for it and will probably end up causing them more physiological harm by not having it, then anything the might have suffered going through it.

This is a matter internal to the US Military that is coming out because of the politics. We keep politics out of SERE school, so SERE school should be kept out of politics.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

24. Same, my hunny was Marines Recon, end of Vietnam War

he still has some traumatic memories of SERE, and it was just training

[grantcart]

4. referred to by KO on countdown tonight

[cliffordu]

6. I disagree. I think we should run SERE in high school.

:sarcasm:

For the thicker friends here. K&R

[grantcart]

9. But only if they turn in their guns before the simulation torture begins

[cliffordu]

10. Well, of course...

Whaddaya think I am, Cruel and Unusual???

[SKKY]

8. Bad idea. SERE is not the problem...

[wmbrew0206]

16. Exactly. SERE serves it purpose well. Using it to justify actions of the Bush Admin

is unfair to the school and why it is there.

[Occam Bandage]

12. I do not think it is inappropriate to train American soldiers how to resist torture. nt

[grantcart]

20. extraordinary training requires extraordinary controls

Doesn't sound that the school, as it is now structured, meets that bar.

One would think that one of the school's main points should be that torture is not consistent with American values and when they got the call to assist in training people for Guantanamo there should have been universal rejection.

[wmbrew0206]

25. SERE School has all the necessary controls it needs to accomplish its mission.

The schools main point is to prepare service men and women for captivity. That is it.

[grantcart]

26. I have gotten the impression, partly from KO, that the expertise for the

waterboarding was taken from SERE.

Is that impression incorrect?


If it is correct then would you agree that controls on the school functions (not simply the training it gives on premise) were not satisfactory?

[wmbrew0206]

27. The CIA does not look to SERE school for any expertise.

I like KO as much as the next person here, but when it comes to the military he is not well informed. (see KO's interview with Hersh about Cheney "private death squad", otherwise well known in the military as JSOF.)

The CIA is on a completely different level than any military SERE school. Their knowledge and experience with interrogations is by far and a way a lot better than anything thing the military has. There isn't really all that much involved in waterboarding that you can't figure out on your own. It is a question of when to employ it. CIA interrogators would not need a Navy, AF, or Marine E-5, E-6, or 0-3 to tell them when they needed to employ waterboarding during an interrogation.

With the exception of SF's SERE school, most of the instructors at SERE school are your average Navy or AF enlisted and officers who took orders to the school and go through it and some additional safety training to become instructors. These are normally pilots, NFO, SWO, etc. There may be a couple of Counter-Intel or Human Intel types, but they are normally pretty senior enlisted and in an oversight role. Even the guys at the Army's SF SERE school would not be able to hold a candle to the CIA.

[grantcart]

28. thanks for your informative addition to the thread

Seems like SERE has been dragged into this debate sideways and isn't relevant to the essential points.

[wmbrew0206]

31. I just wanted to make clear what SERE school is for.

The rethugs dragged it into this argument by trying to justify waterboarding by saying it is what we do to our own service members. What they left out is that it is what SERE school does to train them to deal with third world armies, not to justify its use by Americans.

[TahitiNut]

13. The organizational model of the formerly abused 'earning' the entitlement to abuse others ...

... is pretty rampant in our culture. Every military academy operates on this model. The freshmen (swabs, plebes, etc.) bear up under a year of hazing and outright abuse and then become "abuser trainees" and the abusers. Pledging a fraternity or secret society (e.g. Skull and Bones) necessitates that one accept abuse/hazing, to 'earn' the membership entitlement to haze/abuse future pledges. Army basic training is at least 50% hazing.

Then we have the "generational child abuse" syndrome. The vast majority of child abusers were themselves abused.

We could hardly be surprised that those indoctrinated in such organizations might even be motivated, in part, to 'earn' the entitlement ... the power.

Personal Note: I have some significant experience in this. I survived two years in a military academy, fraternity pledging, and Army basic training. I've been subjected to more "stress positions" and sleep deprivation than I could count. I left the military academy because I couldn't learn to haze other cadets. At the same time, I don't confidently regard myself immune from the Milgram/StanfordJail 'effect.' I just can't.