GENERAL KARPINSKI DESTROYS TRAITOR CHENEY on Olbermann

[berni_mccoy]

Being interviewed on Countdown, she asks a simple question with massive impact:

"If these torture techniques were really for the good of our country and were OK, THEN WHERE WERE YOU when the soldiers in a COMBAT ZONE carrying out YOUR ORDERS were prosecuted?!? How DARE YOU speak up now to defend yourself when you wouldn't defend those on the front line!"

BOOM!

[IndianaGreen]

1. Boom and Kaboom!

And more ammo in support of an independent counsel being appointed by AG Eric Holder.

[indepat]

18. Nice to know Darth now knows how it feels getting a rocket shot up one's ass

:P

[Windy]

2. Give that woman a subpoena!!! She's ready to testify!

I don't think we'll be hearing from Cheney for awhile (under the instructions of his attorney)

[olegramps]

57. Sounds like the military scapegoated their own.

Why didn't the officers who conducted these soldiers' Court Martial recognize that they were being made scapegoats? It seems to me that they are just as guilty in covering up this mess as were top people in the Bush administration. How in the hell did the justify breaking her and forcing her out? Sounds like not a damn one of them has any balls.

[NewJeffCT]

63. They were likely under a lot of pressure

from some higher-ups in the White House

[genna]

72. At what point is the chain of command meant to be broken?

If you want to talk about balls, why did the American people who voted for Bush believe torture was necessary to prosecute war? Evidently it is because they were told what to think and they did so.

Why should we ask a 'Roman' army to sit in judgement of civilian orders especially when they would become the next scapegoat? It is the civilian world that should deal with an unjust leader, not the military. They would have a solution that our democracy would not be able to handle.

[SharonAnn]

77. They scapegoated the National Guard and a woman.

The "threw them under the bus".

They attempted to keep it away from the Army.

After all, the National Guard aren't "professional soldiers".

[disndat]

82. Yes. That was the first outrage.

Bush/Cheney used their "war" powers, but refused to declare war, knowing the Congress wouldn't go along. They used the National Guard because they couldn't ask for a draft, forcing the National Guard to return again and again to Iraq duty. One of the saddest aspect of their phony war on "terrorism."

[msanthrope]

85. The National Guard was used because the regular Army wouldn't

comply...

I remember General Taguba's report where he detailed how regular Army personnel refused to do all the crazy torture shit--not that they came out and said "No! It's wrong!" No. The regular Army guys went passive--they would ask for paperwork, act confused, non-comply. They brought the bureaucracy to bear...

So the torturers--the CIA and the hired CIA-like mercenaries, went to the National Guard. There, there had soldiers who were unused to the bureaucracy, soldiers who did not have the extensive training that the regular Army did in what was allowable in combat/occupation.

So yeah, the National Guard was a deliberate choice.

And the only people who went to jail were the lowest ranking, least educated...who were following orders.

Not that that excuses them. But we should raise our eyes above to the ones who gave the orders.

[axollot]

91. General Karpinski, I believe retired in protest or was releaved..

..of duty and forced out. I *think* she was - as she was head of Abu Gharab (sp) during the scandal and had been out spoken like this ever since it had come to our attention.
She is without a doubt one of our own!

cheers
Sandy

[Howardx]

3. haha

very nice. eat it cheney.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

4. K&R, R&K, and every other Rec I can make.

she was great. and damn, that was a logical answer. How DARE Cheney claim they were doing great work, while they left her and others hanging on hooks, in legal jeopardy?

Perfect.

[Dinger]

27. DU Should Loosen Up The Rec Rules For This

in my humble, humble opinion.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. K&R, R&K, and every other Rec I can make.

she was great. and damn, that was a logical answer. How DARE Cheney claim they were doing great work, while they left her and others hanging on hooks, in legal jeopardy?

Perfect.

[Hutzpa]

6. She is absolutely right

I remembered when they turned her and those under into scapegoat,
she is fuming, I can feel that anger from her right here in my
hole.

Now, here is an allied we can do with, she definitely has the dossier
on these SOB's.

[IndianaGreen]

12. Karpinski had no command control over the area where the abuses were being committed

Lynndie England, Charles Graner, et al, are still guilty as hell, but Karpinski did not have command control over them or over the part of Abu Ghraib where these abuses were taking place.

The lower ranks paid for the crimes of their higher ups, as usual.

[denem]

16. I remember Karpinski was eviscerated for her looks - an 'obvious sadist'

It's so much easier to tear down a woman, for those with a mind for it.

[Hutzpa]

38. I believe she can

still provide us with info we might have missed back then, now is the time
to get your own back Genenral. Its payback time.

Just saying...

[K Gardner]

7. There are people coming out of the woodwork to drag the Bush Criminals down, thank god.

[Jack Rabbit]

8. Exactly my thought

Lynndie England and Charlie Granier may not be beautiful people, but they shouldn't be in prison. At least not while the Frat Boy, the Big Dick and Fuck Yoo are at large.

[disndat]

79. Great t-shirt message

Free Lyndie and Fuck Yoo!

[disndat]

80. Great t-shirt message

Free Lyndie and Fuck Yoo!

[sweettater]

9. OMG!

If you didn't see this, watch the rerun! I don't think my eyes blinked the whole time. Something is going to go down, bigtime! :nuke: I am so pissed I could spit nails!!!!!!!!!!!!

[eleny]

10. She wants an inquiry commission with a member from each of the coalition in Iraq

Can you even imagine that kind of commission with a representative from each of the countries that served there? I'd love to see it.

[IndianaGreen]

13. Sounds like a Nuremberg type inquiry

We hung some people in Nuremberg.

[eleny]

14. Commissions themselves make opinions and recommendations

I loathe the idea of a commission because they can be useless in the end. But one with an array of participants such as she suggested would be fascinating to watch and I believe quite satisfying in the end.

[rosesaylavee]

24. And some were given life sentences...

I am ready to see that happen. Been ready for about 5 years now actually. Didn't the Abu Ghraib story break in May in 2004?

[Hardrada]

50. Except for Hermann Goering.

[MadMaddie]

23. Sounds like the Hague...

[genna]

73. When she made that suggestion, an ad hoc commission, I thought about the war crimes court

Why should we continue to use ad hoc commissions? There is an international war crimes court now, isn't there?


If we explored all the behavior connected to Bush's efforts in Iraq and not just this torture end, a large number of people would go to jail DIRECTLY to jail. 'Following orders' is not a valid excuse from unlawful punishment after WW2.

[BelgianMadCow]

94. that was a very pleasant international perspective indeed

rare, too

[HughMoran]

11. She made me emotional watching her

I'm rarely dumbfounded by what I see on Cable News. This was a game changing moment.

[Oceansaway]

15. K&R...n/t

[Cha]

17. Busted on

on the Keith Olbermann show..how fitting.

[ColbertWatcher]

19. DU video link ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=301428&mesg_id=301428

[Kaleko]

20. Dick outed and nailed by General.

Quite a spectacle. Highly recommended.

[ProSense]

21. Her call for a completely independent investigation is a great one.

Free of political pressure and whims.

[Frustratedlady]

22. She was great. I'd love to hear what else she has to say.

[jazzjunkysue]

25. It's a little thing I like to call Karma.

And it's a total bitch. :smoke:

[Stuart G]

26. This one, could do it. The army people in jail.. will be released soon...

[Nostalgic]

28. I hope Cheney sees her interview.

[MasonJar]

29. WOW! And just what I have been saying. If these were actually needed,

why did the criminals in charge spout the "a few bad apples" defense. They are despicable and lying cowards.

[Bluenorthwest]

30. International members of the investigation

is a wonderful idea. The coallition should be represented. I was really glad I saw her tonight. She was clear and to the point, and not holding the suject at arm's length, unfelt and unprocessed. She is a brave woman.

[The Blue Flower]

31. Hers is the argument that absolutely nails it

And the fact that the US has already prosecuted and convicted people for this behavior means that all who did it, most particularly those who ordered it, are guilty of crimes.

[Johnyawl]

39. excellent point!

[dccrossman]

32. K&R

Bang, baby.

That was intense to watch!

[OwnedByFerrets]

33. She was so emotional.....this is a subject that is close to her heart

[Swagman]

34. people are criticising Obama but do you think there is a more

subtle plan at play here to let these outrages ferment of their own accord with a little kick along every now and then ? Then the government is "forced" to take action. Politics can be played in many ways to achieve a desired outcome and there are many ways to skin a cat !(with apologies to all DUers who are pussycat lovers including me)

[defendandprotect]

36. I think Obama has to publickly straighten out the Military Officials and CIA re TORTURE . . .

and have that word go around the world openly . . .

that they are all to honor the Constitution . . . "no cruel or unusual punishment" -
and Geneva Accords -- and Military Laws against Toture --
military should be made aware of Nuremberg Trials and outcome - rejection of
"just following orders."
Plus Stockholm studies.

Education and prevention -- now!!!

[Butch350]

68. Nail Hit on Head! Staying above the Fray baby!

Just giving them the rope!

[defendandprotect]

35. Karpinsky did a great job . . loved that comment about Cheney . . .

the proud torturer --

If we ever did get information, where are the convictions?

Did you notice she said she's spoken with those convicted -- individually ==
and one of them immediately protested to the "chain of command" over what he was being asked to do.
They told him that the CIA was running things and he should go back and follow orders.
Next day he came back and said "NO" . . . that he wanted a transfer out. And they did do that.
However, he was still prosecuted !!!

[olegramps]

95. This is why I condemn the Court Martial of these people.

They couldn't allow him to be exonerated without admitting their own culpability. That would have been a de facto admission that they were aware of what going on.

The people who sat on this Court Martial board should be condemned just as strongly as those who ordered the use of torture. They were such lowly cowards they scapegoated these people who had trusted them. Officers and a Gentlemen, men of honor, not hardly.

[NYC_SKP]

37. Hmmm Hmm. Who else would like to speak up?

Thank you, General Karpinski.

Thank you, President Obama.

Recommended.

:patriot:

[sampsonblk]

40. K & R!

[Wizard777]

41. I was ashamed of her then. But I'm damned proud of her now.

That took a lot of guts and even more loyalty to the people under her. You just have to respect her for that.

[Usrename]

42. Let's see what that coward Cheney says about this.

They need to go to prison. All of them.

[givemebackmycountry]

43. I watched this live -

And the thing I took away from this was how PISSED she was.
She was fuming.
I'm thinking she has a lot more on her mind, and I want to hear it.

Drip, Drip, Drip.

And when the floodgates open, watch out.
These people were evil and they will pay before Obamas first term is up.

I see it coming.

[Blue_In_AK]

44. I've been a fan of the general for some time.

I can't remember where I saw her first -- Bill Maher maybe? -- but this has all been bugging her for some time. It is a real pleasure to see her finally being vindicated.

[burning rain]

45. k & r

^

[AtomicKitten]

46. I have seen Gen. Karpkinski interviewed many times but

I don't think I have ever seen her this pissed off, deservedly so. Now that President Obama has declassified this stuff, I suspect all kinds of interesting interviews will be heard very, very soon.

[beac]

48. Let's hope so.

I think Obama's being very smart about this and it will go a LONG way toward restoring America's reputation. And I think the trails will come too, eventually.

[AtomicKitten]

49. I'm thinking this is drip, drip, drip 4real this time.

I know that phrase has been used many times before at DU only to end in disappointment, but this thing appears to have ignited.

A reckoning is long overdue.

[jeff30997]

47. Excellent !

The dam is about to burst and the Neofascists are running out of fingers to jam into the leaky holes.

[shellgame26]

51. Gawd DAYUM

She's letting him have it!

[Hope And Change]

52. K & R!

[travelingtypist]

53. Lightning of the Valkyrie.

:wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:

I was hoping she would be the one to deliver this blow.
She was stunning!

[NewJeffCT]

64. I was watching that last night

and I was stunned - I found myself thinking, "Did she just say what I thought she did?" or "Did I hear that right?"

[Hekate]

54. Brig. Gen. Karpinski is a passionate woman as regards right and wrong. It was a thing of beauty...

... to watch. :thumbsup:

Hekate

[jgraz]

55. Except she's no longer a general. Obama should really give her her star back.

Gawd knows she's earned it.

[democrank]

56. BAM!

Brig. General Kapinski was straightforward, courageous and principled...a great combination for anyone interested in bringing the depraved Dick Cheney to his knees.

[Locrian]

58. information cascade

The way I see it, they are letting more and more people out of the box to form an "information cascade". Where eventually the sheer number and volume makes it an accepted fact and conclusion that

A) it was torture
B) it was wrong
C) they are guilty


At least I HOPE so....

[spiritual_gunfighter]

59. and boom goes the dynamite n/t

[progressoid]

60. Game, Set, Match.

[jhain]

61. It was BEAUTIFUL

She is a brave woman.
Her OUTRAGE was evident- how DARE they subvert her service to her Country?
How dare they?

Much thanks to Mr. Olbermann for giving her a voice.

[SpiralHawk]

62. Republicon Chickenhawks like Cheney are so LOW

no honor -- and they are abusive of our sons and daughters in uniform who serve with honor. Ptoooey on the Republicons and their shameful chickenhawkery.

[90-percent]

65. Go on a PR Tour, Dick!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8361922&mesg_id=8363978

If Dick was an honorable man, he could straighten this whole thing out debating Gen. Karpinski on live tv!

-90% jimmy

[customerserviceguy]

66. And if Darth Cheney had called on Chimpy publicly

to give a pardon to the Abu Ghraib bunch, this place would have come unglued.

Isn't that sort of what she's excoriating him for, in effect?

[genna]

75. True. I like her standing up and speaking out but I won't overlook what she was involved in

IF the underlying problem is torture and she participated in it, even if she is speaking out because she was singled out, she still participated in it.


I don't have a problem with granting clemency after the matter has been prosecuted, but she was not a voluntary whistleblower. She did not object to the underlying conduct before she was given the shaft.

[sabrina 1]

93. She has denied knowing about the abuse.

Gen. (treat the iraqis like dogs) Miller, who was the most responsible for bringing torture techniques to Abu Ghraib, retired with honors, while she took the fall.

US prison guards and interrogators attempted to cover up the systematic abuse of Iraqi inmates from the international Red Cross according to a US general dismissed after evidence surfaced of torture at a jail near Baghdad.

The claims add weight to a growing body of evidence that the reports of torture at Abu Ghraib prison reflect a pattern of abuse which goes far beyond the six guards now facing possible court martial.

The former head of US military prisons in Iraq, Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, who was relieved of her command earlier this year, yesterday alleged that military intelligence officers discouraged her from entering the cell block at Abu Ghraib where they interrogated prisoners. They also went "to great lengths to try to exclude" the International Red Cross from their prison wing.

A US military investigation, carried out by Major General Antonio Taguba, uncovered evidence of war crimes against the inmates, including: breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; sodomising a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

General Taguba seemed to agree with her assessment.

The New Yorker magazine, which obtained a complete copy of the report, observed: "General Taguba saved his harshest words for the military intelligence officers and private contractors."

I tend to believe her. If her superiors told her to stay away from the interrogation rooms, she may have assumed that to be for national security reasons. I don't know how much authority she had, if she did come to suspect there was abuse, to insist on being present. All that and so many more questions, should be answered under oath as soon as possible. For now though, I'd take her word over Miller's or Sanchez'.

Remember that Taguba was phased out of his postition also as soon as he wrote his report. The Bush administration had a habit of rewarding the criminals with Medals of Freedom, such as Sanchez, and firing those who tried to get to the truth of what was going on.


I just wish the media would stop acting like this is all news. They are lying as none of this news, it's just that they did not cover it. And I also wish they would stop assuming we are stupid, we are not for their information.

[olegramps]

96. The media has definitely let the American people down.

They did so in the run-up to the Iraq war and did so throughout Bush's time in office. The vast majority of them want me to vomit when I see them on the news.

[SeaLyons]

67. How Dare You....TRAITOR CHENEY... n/t

K&R
:kick:

[myrna minx]

69. Damn. K&R

[Patiod]

70. Rarely watch, but SO insisted we tune in for the rerun at 10

Boy, am I glad we did - what a jaw-dropping interview. You rarely see one of the talking heads on the teevee actually righteously angry - she was almost shaking when she described how the people under her command were thrown under the bus.

[paparush]

71. Cheney goes back into the Have Mercy On Me Wheelchair (tm) in 3..2..1

[lonestarnot]

74. Yeah dick support the fucking troops!

Let them rot in prison you fuck for your dirty work!

[Hepburn]

76. Amen! K&R

:applause:

[Peacetrain]

78. She really did..

[Orsino]

81. I'm still on the fence as to how much credibility General K. has...

...but this point goes right to the heart of the essential weakness and cowardice of the fascists. Loyalty goes only one way, and only for as long as is expedient.

[SlingBlade]

83. And the Truth... Shall lock these bastards up for LIFE ! K&R

[yoyossarian]

84. Cool!... but TOO LATE!

Cheney's gone underground again!



Great gift tee shirts, mugs, buttons and other cool stuff at


Laugh City!

President Evil Online has risen from the grave!

[Uncle Joe]

86. Kicked and recommneded.

Thanks for the thread, berni.:thumbsup:

[George II]

87. Great pickup...but isn't this in the wrong forum, this is 'Presidential", neither bush nor Cheney...

...were EVER "Presidential"!!!

[berni_mccoy]

88. Cheney was criticizing the current administration for the release of the memos as well as...

saying they were making us less safe. Her comments are directed at these recent statements from Cheney, so I'll say their apropos.

[George II]

92. You missed my wryness....I agree with where you put it.

[katty]

89. she has finally had her day in court-good for you Karpinski!

[polichick]

90. She was angry, eloquent - and dead on!