I'm all for the torture investigations and prosecutions.... but I fear that....

[scheming daemons]

...it will mean that we won't see Health Care this year.

It will become a circus. It will dominate Washington for a year or more.

It needs to be done. But let's understand what this will cost us.... why Obama was reluctant to dive into this. It means that large parts of Obama's agenda won't occur this year.

And with 2010 being an election year, it might not happen then either.


Investigations like this become all-encompassing. The GOP in congress will hunker down even more. Obama will have trouble getting the Health Care debate beyond the committee stage. And even if he does, he won't get the 60 votes he needs in the senate.


I know it must be done. Our children need to know that we did the right thing with respect to torture and prosecuting those that need prosecuting.


But let's not pretend this comes "free". It doesn't.

The political capital that Obama will expend over the torture investigations/hearings will be capital that is unavailable to use for other agenda items. Obama and his staff know that his political capital is at a very high level right now, and it is not likely to be this high again until/unless he gets elected again.

I'm reluctantly willing to trade Health Care now in order to see BushCo prosecuted.

Are you?

[rug]

1. The Administration can do two things at once.

Fear not.

[scheming daemons]

2. Besides the point.... CONGRESS usually cannot

And Obama needs some repukes to get Health Care passed.

He won't get them.

[rug]

5. And how many Republicans will support prosecution?

If it can do one it can do both.

[scheming daemons]

7. Prosecution won't require a filibuster-proof vote in senate....

Health Care will.

[rug]

9. Says who?

Let the 40 odd Republicans filibuster against health care live on cspan for days on end. When it ends, which it will, let's see who's still standing.

[CTyankee]

42. I think you are right! Let's let the American people see what new lows the repukes

can reach in denying the peoples' health care.

We should call the repukes bluff. We'll get health care...

[tridim]

38. How many Republicans will support torture?

I think we might be surprised how many decide to jump ship.

[Orsino]

41. The investigation circus will be a fine excuse...

...for not accomplishing either prosecution or health care coverage.

[Occam Bandage]

4. Political history notwithstanding?

[rug]

6. Change, political history notwithstanding.

[scheming daemons]

12. You're not being realistic about how Washington works...

To pass Health Care reform, Obama will have to expend a great amount of political capital on the hill.


To have torture hearings and prosecutions, Obama will have to expend a great amount of political capital as well.


His political capital will never be higher than it is now. By fall, he won't have the ability to get Health Care passed if Washington is being dominated by the torture scandal.

Do you remember 1998? Do you remember how NOTHING happened in Washington except for impeachment hearings?

Do you remember Iran/Contra? NOTHING else happened in Washington while that was going on.



The torture scandal will be ALL that happens in Washington for a year. It will "suck the oxygen out of the room" for every other issue.


Health Care won't happen in 2009 if the torture hearings and prosecutions are taking place. It just won't.


I'm willing to make that trade. I just want everyone to realize that it effectively IS and either/or situation. That's just how D.C. works.

[rug]

16. If you're right, he better keep quiet about getting out of Iraq or we'll never get health care.

[ecstatic]

8. But will you complain if a criminal investigation sucks the life out

of other very important agendas we need passed? Things that make you go hmmm....

[rug]

11. If anything, prosecuting torturers wil invigorate progress across the board.

How strong do you think these bogeymen are?

[DJ13]

15. I will complain

The torture has been ended under Obama, its now in the past and the WH has the rest of his first term to deal with it.

Theres no point in sacrificing the immediate needs of our country (health care, the economy) for events that are over with.

Theres time later to tackle the torture issue.

[Xipe Totec]

3. Tree of Liberty... blood... martyrs... tyrants... n/t

[MarjorieG]

10. I've been trying that drumbeat, but all I get is righteous indignation.

We need to bring down the heat and rhetoric, so Obama can take control of the agenda again. The investigation will continue and media will not let go. We just can't keep pushing this.

[Adelante]

13. I so agree nt

[scheming daemons]

14. Those who don't see this have not paid attention to history....

If this is all the media is discussing, then Health Care is on the back back back back burner in Washington.


Obama can't pass Health Care reform by fiat. He needs congress. And he needs a handful of Republicans.

[CTyankee]

44. At one time this would be true. But this is a whole new ball game.

The repubs would like nothing better than for Obama to get timid on health care. But the times have changed. We should call the bluff of the republicans while their backs are up against the wall. The American people have HAD it with them. They are disgusted with them. We need to capitalize on that disgust.

Strike while the iron is hot and all that...

[Raine]

26. Agree nt

[ProSense]

17. How can people get completely excited about Hillary nailing Cheney, and then

make excuses about why he shouldn't be prosecuted?

Is this all about "oh snap" moments and not pursuing these criminals?

The "prosecution will overshadow everything" argument is bogus. I'm sure our brilliant government can figure out a way to do more than one thing at a time.




Edited for clarity.

[scheming daemons]

18. I want the prosecutions to happen... I'm just being realistic about what it will cost us

"Our brilliant government" has never figured out how to do Health Care before... and they certainly won't feel any pressure to do so when all they're hearing about from their constituents is "torture this" and "torture that".


In 1998, almost NOTHING happened in Congress because it was all impeachment, all the time.


This will be bigger. We're talking about the prosecution of a former President and Vice President potentially. It could be the biggest story in decades.

NOTHING else will be talked about in Washington. Nothing.

[ProSense]

20. This isn't the least bit similar.

No one expects Congress to pursue a war crimes investigation.

It also isn't for political theater.

[Usrename]

37. Yeah, that's the ticket!

If we all turn our backs on all these crimes then the Republicans will all jump on board with the Obama agenda!

Cool!

That is a very clever strategery!

[HopeOverFear]

19. I was kinda thinking the opposite would happen

that while the media and republicans in congress were busy fighting over agenda, it would leave Obama free to pursue and pass his agendas (healthcare, etc). Does that make sense?

[scheming daemons]

21. Interesting idea..... but it goes against how things have worked in the past in DC

...but who knows... maybe this time will be different.

[Fire1]

24. Doubt it. Especially if a 'truth commission' gets involved,

in which case, the criminal prosecutions may end up compromised because of them. If a special prosecutor was assigned under Holder without a commission, it might be less of a distraction.

[rasputin1952]

22. This is a multi-tasking Admisistration...

Things are getting done. Maybe not as fast as we'd like, but the president has the priorities, and that is his option. I'll be ecstatic if he accomplishes 50% of what he said he'd do, that's a far better percentage than his predecessors...:hi:

[Clio the Leo]

27. but sadly, Congress is not....

... as a matter of fact, they have raised the act of stalling to an art form.

I think that's where the problem is.

[Clio the Leo]

28. *

[rasputin1952]

40. And that is where we shall see leadership...

Let's see what can be done when we have intelligent leadership in the WH. Everything takes time, prodding from the Bully pulpit will be coming...:hi:

[slipslidingaway]

23. "When do we investigate the bush regime for waging a war of agression on Iraq?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5513297&mesg_id=5513297

Everything comes with a cost, some people bear the cost more than others.

:(

[HopeOverFear]

32. Yeah, revenge now. Healthcare later

:eyes:

[Raine]

25. I agree

that's my concern too. I don't want to see Obama diverted from domestic issues and everything go down the toilet. :yoiks:

[Clio the Leo]

29. I've long suspected you of being President Obama...

.... this post just confirms it. :)

Seriously, I think you're on to something .... I'm finding myself feeling more and more like wishing I could read the guy's mind and understand his rationale in all of this. As much as I'd like to believe it, I dont buy into the notion that this is some grand scheme to enable Holder of the Congregress to do the hard work leaving his political hands clean. That just doesn't sounds like him.

I think he simply changed his mind.

But your notion that he doesn't want it to mess up his healthcare agenda is the most plausable theory I've seen thus far.

[ShortnFiery]

30. As long as "the corporations rule" any real change in Health Care is doomed to failure.

IMNSHO, our country is going to have to be in "a recession" for another year before there's any SERIOUS reform of Health Care.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

31. let's say the torture thing will always be looming in the background

I'm pretty sure healthcare will get attention besides the torture is only the tip of the iceberg!

[BlooInBloo]

33. You haven't convinced me that a trade is required.

[BlueJac]

34. If we can't do one thing right..............

how do you expect us to get anything right! We can do more than a single task, we have to. Bush left this country in shambles.

[Usrename]

35. Huh?

What does this have to do with health care or Obama's agenda?

Do you think he might lose all that Republican support he has in Congress? :sarcasm:

[stillcool]

36. Obama has taken himself out..

of the equation. The ball is not in his court.

[sam kane]

39. this is a joke?

nonsensical.

[CTyankee]

43. No, it's a good idea to do both. The people want a massive change in how health care is

provided in this country. I think our chances of getting a bill through Congress while the repubs are tied up in knots on the torture hearings will improve!

[Starry Messenger]

45. Thank you for your concern.

;)